Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Wanker on November 06, 2003, 12:14:01 PM
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Ok, without Eagler and his animated gif, I'd like to open the floor for discussion about this issue.
Could one of you pro-choice folks please explain to me why the new partial birth abortion ban bill is bad?
If it contains provisions to allow this procedure to be performed to save the life of the mother, then why can't it be banned for all other situations?
Since I usually find myself on the left side of the fence, I feel awkward agreeing with well-known conservatives like Eagler and Ripsnort, but on this particular issue, I agree completely with them.
I can't think of any other reasonable use for this type of abortion, except to save the mother's life, at the expense of the baby.
I am not religious, so I have no religious reason to oppose abortion. Morally, however, I think abortion used as a method of birth control is an appalling abomination.
Please explain to me why I should support the killing of unborn children?
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That Packer win hit harder than I thought.
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Creamo, thank you for yet another enlightning comment from your vast reserves of pithy one liners.
:rolleyes:
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Why bother posting when banana said what I was thinking...
"I am not religious, so I have no religious reason to oppose abortion. Morally, however, I think abortion used as a method of birth control is an appalling abomination.
Please explain to me why I should support the killing of unborn children?"
Don't the words "Birth" and "Abortion: in the same phrase bother you?
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There will always be legitimate uses for lethal force.
Abortion, when used as a tool to protect endangered life, is justified. When used as a form of ending "unwanted" pregnancies, abortion just doesnt seem justifiable to me.
As far as Im concerned, as long as abortion is viewed honestly for what it is, lawful homicide, then Im just fine with it.
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Well, we could have a vast intriguing argument pitting intelligence and the obvious, banana, against your inferring my one liner served any less purpose than you spamming up the O'Club with this topic that was banned for a reason.
I'm up all day, but loosing interest.
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What's your question, banana? "Is the bill and D&X bad?" or "is all abortion bad?" As I read it, you kind of had both of those mixed up in there. I might have read it wrong.
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This is disgusting.
I am F******* nauseous..
Look guys, I'm not a religious freak. I even paid for someone to have an abortion when I was younger. After my daughter was born, my position on the matter has changed. I dont' condone any abortion, but I'm not out bombing clinics either.
Read this opinion by JUSTICE THOMAS:
"After dilating the cervix, the physician will grab the fetus by its feet and pull the fetal body out of the uterus into the vaginal cavity. At this stage of development, the head is the largest part of the body. Assuming the physician has performed the dilation procedure correctly, the head will be held inside the uterus by the woman's cervix. While the fetus is stuck in this position, dangling partly out of the woman's body, and just a few inches from a completed birth, the physician uses an instrument such as a pair of scissors to tear or perforate the skull. The physician will then either crush the skull or will use a vacuum to remove the brain and other intracranial contents from the fetal skull, collapse the fetus' head, and pull the fetus from the uterus."
Guys....this IS murder. There is NO way to sanitize it.
Disgusting.
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^What he said. I don't see any gray areas here, its plain for all to see.
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SOB, sorry if I was unclear. Let me try again.
Why is the banning of Partial birth abortions a bad idea, considering that there is a provision to allow for said procedures in the case of the mother's life being in jeopardy?
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Partial birth murder is disgusting and should never be used to end unwanted pregnency. It should only be used to protect the life of the mother. Why lose both?
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Thanks, that's clearer... There's nothing wrong with it.
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It is only a political move by the current administration to incrementally attack Roe vs Wade.
In their minds, the ends justifies the means.
h
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Personally, I don't like partial births. I would like to see a decision made in the first month. But I am a man, I do not know what a woman goes through who does not want the baby she is carrying. I also think any man not married to said woman already made his decision.
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There is no reason for the legislation. <--- period
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What percentage of partial birth abortions are for terminating unwanted pregnancies compared to the cases where you feel it is justified (mother's life in danger type stuff)?
It is my understanding that it is used for that reason and that reason alone. I am not naive enough to think that it isn't used to terminate unwanted pregnancies.
I won't get into whether it is right or wrong, because it seems that most people view PBA's about the same. I think the reason many people are against the law is because they see it is a foot in the door for passing future laws outlawing abortion.
Also, you might try to understand that there are some people who are against any kind of laws outlawing abortion. This is the same as those who oppose any type of abortion regardless of the factors behind why one is being sought (rape, incest, health reasons, mistake, whatever).
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So let me run this situation by you guys...just to see if everyone agrees on it.
Let's say a girl who is 17, 5' 1", 116 lbs. get pregnat from a rape. A doctor has told her that her body is not capible of supporting a baby at the current time, due to her weight, size, and age. The doctor says that if she proceeds with the pregancy, she runs the very high risk of either dying from complications or the baby being stillborn, since her body would not be able to support it.
Should she go through with it and take the chance that she should die, as her parents say? Or should she abort the child to save her life?
The girl in question is my girlfriend, who three weeks ago was raped walking home from school by two juniors from my old high school. She got tested and it came back positive. I, being pro-choice, told her that she should take what the doc said to heart and protect herself, while her parents, being pro-life, say she should have the child and take care of it. How's that for a choice, huh?
What should I tell her to do?
Oh yeah, I almost forgot. What if, while she's working, she suddenly miscarries and the child dies. According to the bill, would she go to prison for murder? Yeah, the bill only says partial-birth, but the government is wack sometimes.
:( :confused:
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Texace.
Man if your are not trolling I am really sorry. That is horrible.
She should abort it. She should not risk her life on the baby of a rapist scum.
I hope the rapist are going to jail for a long time.
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I didn't see Eagler's post, banana, so I can only speculate. But, assuming Eagler had an agenda, attempting to argue it from an emotional point of view isn't productive.
If Eagler wants to take a stance, for or against, on abortion, I'll bet ole Skuzzy will let the thread grow, but only if he doesn't show images which are a deliberate attempt to inflame the attendees.
So yeah, Skuzzy did the right thing. :)
curly
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Well, that certainly is a bad situation but is an exception not the norm. And if she's not too far along a regular abortion is still an option.
As for the advice the doctor gave, I'd seek a second opinion. I know a woman who's entire family runs in the 4'10" range and they have perfectly healthy births.
Just do what you feel is right, PBA's are performed in late pregnancies, not early in the first trimester.
The miscarriage is a normal body function, no one is inducing the birth artificially, so, no, there is no legal ramifications unless it is proven that she induced the labor or miscarriage herself. But that is a whole different subject.
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No, I'm not trolling. I really wish I was, to be honest, but I'm not.
She and I have discussed what to do about this. Being I'm only 18 and in college, even if the child was born healthy there would be no way I'd be able to take care of it. The two boys, both 16 years old (they're bigger than she is...one secured her while the other raped her), were charged with rape and are currently awaiting a trial date. Intuition tells me they'll plead not guily. :rolleyes:
I'll talk with her and see where to go from here. I want her to, as you said, get a second opinion about the whole thing. Hopefully, something will work out.
But if she does not make it from complications (should she decide to go), could the rapists be charged with manslaughter? Just curious.
I pray for her every day. You really don't think about this until it hits close to you.
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Texace-
Sorry to hear this happened...
I can only hope those 2 sub humans are sent to prison and held down and raped....
Meanwhile, as far as I'm concerned there is a difference between a 1st trimester abortion and a 3rd or PBA.
I guess I'm pro-choice on the 1TM by definitley against the PBA.
I would say, that though I don't like ANY abortion, I see it as a necessary evil sometimes.
It all comes down to when you see life beggining. Does it begin at conception, at birth, or sometime in between?
Tough, Heart wrenching topic here.
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(http://images.packers.com/pg/2003-11-02/photo16.jpg)
OWNED.
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Semp,
Man, I am so sorry to hear that such a horrible thing happened to your girlfriend.
She should most definately have the choice to abort this child.
In this thread though the discussion is focused on very late term abortions, which I disagree with unless there is a very good reason.
In your girlfriend's case she can make the decision very early on in the pregnancy.
I'm not going to try and advise you on what to do though. It is something she needs to decide upon...even you can't tell her what to do...all you can do is love and support her, no matter what she decides.
Again, I'm feel horrible that such a violation happened to her. I hope those two freaks go to jail and get raped themselves while there. Maybe then they will understand what they have done.
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I got nuthin against killin people but... ya better have a damn good reason.
lazs
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I do find it amusing that the people who oppose any kind of abortion are the same ones who say sacrificing a few kids a day in Iraq is the right thing to do.
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like I said... nothin against killin people.... just need a damn good reason. And.... I insist that you own up to it like a man.
lazs
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Sixpence,
I find it amusing that you could make such a ridiculous statement.
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That's terrible to hear, Texace. Sounds like you're doing the right thing though...get her all of the medical advice she can get and let her make a decision. That's what pro-choice is all about.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Sixpence,
I find it amusing that you could make such a ridiculous statement.
It's not so rediculous to the people losing their kids.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
It's not so rediculous to the people losing their kids.
You do realize how pathtic this hijack is, right?
Six,
I'm not even gonna bother shooting this one up, pal.
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You already did
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Originally posted by SOB
Thanks, that's clearer... There's nothing wrong with it.
After reading more on the subject, I've changed my mind...the bill seems to rigid in its exception. Change "life" to "health" and I'd support it.
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Six
No no it really is a pretty stupid thing to say. Bet your slimey ass, if you tried to make that analogy to a dad who just lost his son he would be pissed.
You are trivializing the death of American soldiers in a thread about later term abortions, WTFG. People like you who can't step away from being anti Bush for a second and post crap like this are pathetic.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Six
No no it really is a pretty stupid thing to say. Bet your slimey ass, if you tried to make that analogy to a dad who just lost his son he would be pissed.
Woman has an abortion she feels is just.....others say it isn't.
We send kids to die because some feel it is just....others say it isn't.
My point is the same people who say sacrifice is ok, are the same to say it isn't ok.
BTW, why would someone who lost a son who didn't believe the war was just, be pissed at me?
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Woman has an abortion she feels is just.....others say it isn't.
We send kids to die because some feel it is just....others say it isn't.
My point is the same people who say sacrifice is ok, are the same to say it isn't ok.
BTW, why would someone who lost a son who didn't believe the war was just, be pissed at me?
Six-
Ready for this? Try and keep up.
People who serve in Iraq.=Volunteering ADULTS.
Are their deaths tragedies? Yes, of course, but they know when they enlist in the armed services there is a chance they will have to fight in a war. This is why they give them guns and stuff.
Late Term Abortion= Murder of an innocent child who cannot be consulted or given a choice.
See?
Soldier has the choice to enlist or not.
Murdered Child does not have the choice to be aborted or not.
Thanks for wasting 4 minutes of my life.
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I'm sure they knew they were going to die for a war they thought was unjust. The point is you think it is ok for them to die.
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Six
Two things, I am willing to bet most soldiers over there do not think the war is unjusts.
Second. I bet you have never delt with someone who has had a close loved one die.
You are taking the death of someones kid and trying to use that to justifie a point about a wholly different and unrelated thing. If you had done that with my dads death to my face I would have beaten the crap out of you.
You are also ASSuming that the parents of the soldiers killed in Iraq A: do not support the war( I bet most do) and b: If there kid is killed automaticaly assume it was unjust and you are going to be wrong in most cases.
Either way it is a very low class way to make your point.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Second. I bet you have never delt with someone who has had a close loved one die.
You would lose that bet.
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Then you are an insensitive little jerk to use it to make a point. Have fun on ignore.
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banana: Ok, without Eagler and his animated gif, I'd like to open the floor for discussion about this issue.
Could one of you pro-choice folks please explain to me why the new partial birth abortion ban bill is bad?
OK, here is the deal. Do you agree that you as a US voter do not have a right to impose such a ban on a citizen of another country? A small one that we could overpower militarily?
Many would agree. Why? Because they have their souvereignity in this matter and not subject to your vote. What they do may be bad from the moral standpoint but it does not concern you.
So why do you think a Congress should be able to impose such restrictions on the americans? Just because it has the power to do so? Sure, it does, but if we base our argument on that, it does not make any sense.
Any action becomes justifiable just because we have armed goons to enforce it.
Legitimacy of the government derives from the consent of the governed, remember? If a family decides to retain its souvereignity in some issues, the government should not get involved.
There are other ways to exert pressure on such people besides the government coercion.
miko
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Originally posted by texace
So let me run this situation by you guys...just to see if everyone agrees on it.
Let's say a girl who is 17, 5' 1", 116 lbs. get pregnat from a rape. A doctor has told her that her body is not capible of supporting a baby at the current time, due to her weight, size, and age. The doctor says that if she proceeds with the pregancy, she runs the very high risk of either dying from complications or the baby being stillborn, since her body would not be able to support it.
She must have more wrong with her than that. Her age, weight, and height isn't "unsafe" for child bearing. If the doctor told her she shouldn't have it, it wasn't for those reasons. Unless her doctor needs a shrink.
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I think losing those kids isn't right, but I guess that is just my insensitivity.
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Originally posted by miko2d
Any action becomes justifiable just because we have armed goons to enforce it.
miko
That covers a broad spectrum. You said yourself there has to be some laws, and you will need armed goons to enforce them.
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Sixpence: I think losing those kids isn't right, but I guess that is just my insensitivity.
You mean those particular ones or loses due to abortion in general?
Because women who undergo abortions generally end up having as many children as they planned. So the 40 million abortions performed in US may not have resulted in any net decrease in the number of live births.
So an abortion is not as much prevents a child from being born as prefres the child from being born and replaces it with another child who probably would not have been born if not for that abortion.
In russia and easten europe women used to have - maybe still have - over dozen abortions on average. Many people I knew would not have been born/raised if their mothers did not have previous abortions. Some other people would have been born and raised - in worse conditions, being undesirable at the time.
miko
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It's a bad idea simply because this is the first time that the government has stepped in and banned a particular medical procedure.
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It was about the kids we are losing in Iraq everyday Miko. I believe in a woman's right to chose(though I do not like partials and prefer the decision made in the first month)
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Sixpence: That covers a broad spectrum. You said yourself there has to be some laws, and you will need armed goons to enforce them.
Absolutely, the laws protecting citizens from agression against their persons and property and the laws enforcing the contracts.
Any citizen is takes upon himself an obligation not to agress against the other citizens and the state enforces it.
Since an abortion-minded citizen could not have possibly taken a voluntary obligation not to agress against his own fetus, and he/she could not have incured a voluntary obligation to let anyone protect that fetus, there is no case for regulating such private behavior.
Not saying it should be moral. Just that it should not be regulated by the state.
miko
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Texace sorry man. Sorry for your girlfriend too. I can honestly say this is about the crappiest thing i have ever heard.
Of course she should have the choice in this situation to have an abortion. I wouldnt even think twice about taking her to task on her decision. Not even saying "are you sure?"
I think it goes far beyond physical concerns as well. I'm sure you are aware of all the other factors that could play into the situation if this baby was taken to term, so I wont mention them.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
It was about the kids we are losing in Iraq everyday Miko. I believe in a woman's right to chose(though I do not like partials and prefer the decision made in the first month)
I'll add to that, my wife is a carrier of Duchenne muscular dystrophy. When she gets pregnant, if it is a boy(only boys get duchenne), it has a 95% chance of having the disease. There is a test to determine if the child(boy) has the disease. And we decided long ago after seeing what Matthew went through not to bring a child with the disease into the world. I would not want the government telling me I had no choice but to bring him into the world.
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Getting killed is always a bummer.
(http://images.packers.com/pg/2003-11-02/photo2.jpg)
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Originally posted by Creamo
(http://images.packers.com/pg/2003-11-02/photo2.jpg)
You see that pats-Broncos game? There was a Denver sports writer who said the Patriots had no chance and a Bronco victory was a lock.
Crow anyone?
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Here's an abortion.
(http://images.packers.com/pg/2003-11-02/photo4.jpg)
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Ok, Ok, lets get back to bananas passion.
Wait...
(http://images.packers.com/pg/2003-11-02/photo33.jpg)
Heart breaker...
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A guy named banana talking about abortion? Yeah, like HE will ever get anyone pregnant. :rolleyes:
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Would like to add a few facts
1. Polling numbers show 72% US supports the ban and women over 60% support ban on all abortions FYI.
2. # of partials a year I think I read 4000
3. How many for "life saving reasons IMO 1%
4. Follow up to(3) this so-called need for "life saving reasons" we have a procedure its called caesarian section . Baby lives mother lives. No one has to die.
That is crap about health of mother, buts its all the opposition has left to fight this on
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Originally posted by JBA
Would like to add a few facts.....
and women over 60% support ban on all abortions FYI.
Could you provide a link to this poll?
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Originally posted by JBA
Would like to add a few facts
1. Polling numbers show 72% US supports the ban and women over 60% support ban on all abortions FYI.
2. # of partials a year I think I read 4000
3. How many for "life saving reasons IMO 1%
4. Follow up to(3) this so-called need for "life saving reasons" we have a procedure its called caesarian section . Baby lives mother lives. No one has to die.
That is crap about health of mother, buts its all the opposition has left to fight this on
Spent a good portion of last night trying not to think about this issue....JBA, as much as I support what your saying, only a doctor could convince me that the PBA was the only way to save a mother and a c-section would not work.
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Imagine for a second, your a father or father to be, anyway...
You wife is pregnant with your first child...
God forbid, she has complications in her 6th month..
could you imagine having to live with the choice...
Risk the life of the woman you love, or murder your unborn child....
Damn...
I would NEVER wish that fate on anyone.
Why not do a C-section like JBA said? No good?
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not sure the procedure is a "medical" procedure... more like a loophole.
Like haveing a doctor on hand at an execution doesn't really make it a medical procedure in my opinion.
lazs
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Originally posted by Airhead
A guy named banana talking about abortion? Yeah, like HE will ever get anyone pregnant. :rolleyes:
To be honest, Airhead, I was pro-choice until the birth of my son. Seeing him come out of my wife changed my whole perspective on this issue.
Do you have any children?
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Originally posted by Creamo
Here's an abortion.
(http://images.packers.com/pg/2003-11-02/photo4.jpg)
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banana... wonder how being assaulted or robbed will affect you?
funny how life teaches what books cannot.
lazs
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GScholz: I all comes down to the definition of a human being.
No, it doesn't. It comes down to who is entitled to come up with such definitions - the affected family/clan/municipality/state or any tyrant that has a bunch of armed goons at his disposal.
miko
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Originally posted by lazs2
banana... wonder how being assaulted or robbed will affect you?
funny how life teaches what books cannot.
lazs
I'm sure it would, Lazs. But even if I were to change my opinion on guns, I don't think I'd ever be as much of an enthusist as you are about them.
I enjoy firing guns, just don't like killing anything with them.
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banana... where did I say I enjoyed killing things? I hunt at safeway.. Haven't killed anything in ages. I do my fireing at innatimate objects... oops... that's not true... I kill vermin on occassion still. Kinda forget that they are considered "killing things" more humane than poison or traps tho IMO.
Guns are not all about killing. Sometimes they are even about preventing killing. I only ask that you think with your brain instead of having your emotions tug you this way and that.
Hot Rods.... Now there is a neutral subject.... everyone loves hot rods right?
lazs
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If you go to the con next summer, maybe we can shoot some targets together at that big sporting goods place that's connected to the hotel. Wouldn't that make for a great photo op!
"Here's a pic of Lazs and banana(!) shooting firearms together"
LOL! Oh, the humanity! :D
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I'm for the abortion within a certain time limit and do not see anything wrong with it.
If abortion, even at the early stage, would be illegal, then we should as well ban masturbation, condoms and sex which purpose isn't to make woman pregnant.
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The GWB is an example that partial birth aborted fetisus do live.
Great job Republicans... 3 judges banning your stupid law
Now fight the constitution!
How about amending the constitution.. you got control of the governement do it!
Add all your stupid and silly rants like
1. Thou shalt not abort a child in the womb
2. Thou shalt not burn the flag
3. Thou shalt not make movies about Reagan
4. Thou shalt not be black, poor, or non-christian.
5. Thou shalt not be a liberal
6. Thou shalt not pay taxes if thy be rich
7. Thou shalt not go to jail if the cheat steal millions of dollars from the elder through stocks and S&L scams.
8. Thou shalt serve no time in jail if you use Oxycotin.
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Congratulations, Nexus...
Your the first person I ever put on Ignore on this board.
It's not that I do not welcome opposing viewpoints.
But your posts are so without thought, they simply do not merit reading.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Congratulations, Nexus...
Your the first person I ever put on Ignore on this board.
My pleasure. :rofl
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Just remember Muck, not all Democrats share Nexus' viewpoint sir. I sure don't want to be lumped into a crowd of goofs that supports burning our flag, giving handouts to the lazy, and turning this country into a lawless free-for-all...
The Democratic party is changing for the worse, and I can hardly stand it anymore. They're certainly not what they used to be.
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Originally posted by GrimCO
Just remember Muck, not all Democrats share Nexus' viewpoint sir. I sure don't want to be lumped into a crowd of goofs that supports burning our flag, giving handouts to the lazy, and turning this country into a lawless free-for-all...
The Democratic party is changing for the worse, and I can hardly stand it anymore. They're certainly not what they used to be.
Jesus you people are blind. All you see is black and white.
I'm not a Democrat.
They are just as extreme as the Nazi... eh I mean the Republican party.
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Originally posted by GrimCO
Just remember Muck, not all Democrats share Nexus' viewpoint sir. I sure don't want to be lumped into a crowd of goofs that supports burning our flag, giving handouts to the lazy, and turning this country into a lawless free-for-all...
The Democratic party is changing for the worse, and I can hardly stand it anymore. They're certainly not what they used to be.
Well said Grim.
I welcome opposing viewpoints, but some are so off the wall, and baseless, they are not even worth reading.
I don't vote for a party. I vote for the candidate who best meets my needs.
Most of my views are conservative, but I am also not religious, do not support Israel, and am middle of the road on abortion. Most definitly against Late term abortions, though.
Why are people so afraid to be honest with themselves?
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
Jesus you people are blind. All you see is black and white.
I'm not a Democrat.
They are just as extreme as the Nazi... eh I mean the Republican party.
Starting to sound like an Anarchist :)
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There ARE other parties in the politics than republicans and democrats :)
Which kind of wonders me why democrats and republicans seems to be the only effective political parties in US, which isn't good in democracy.
In democracy there should be more parties posessing the actual power than just two.....
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I guess it comes down to cash, Fishu.
Not really sure.
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Fishu: In democracy there should be more parties posessing the actual power than just two.....
In the beginning. But any unlimited democracy inexorably progresses towards oligarchy and then to tyrany. We are around an oligarchy stage right now.
miko
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There are many awsome people up here who I respect and have oposing view points. Hell MT convinced me yesteday that I should not support this bill. The wording in it is not right. I still do not like PBA but the Bill needs some revision.
Still People like LDV, nexus, weasel, etc are such a waste of time, they claim no one else gets it, lol but they really are the ones missing the point.
Just put them on ignore and listen to the guys with a clue no mater where they stand on issues.
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Originally posted by Fishu
There ARE other parties in the politics than republicans and democrats :)
Which kind of wonders me why democrats and republicans seems to be the only effective political parties in US, which isn't good in democracy.
In democracy there should be more parties posessing the actual power than just two.....
Yes, let's force people to join other parties to even things out.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Could you provide a link to this poll?
http://www.frtl.org/abortion/The%20sound%20of%20silence.htm
The Sound of SilenceThe media ignores a poll and reveals their bias. By Joel Mowbray, a freelance writerAugust 23, 2001 12:10 p.m.
For the first time, as many Americans identify themselves as pro-life as pro-choice, according to a Gallup poll released last week. Just six years ago, the same poll had a 23-point margin, with 56 percent as pro-choice, and only 33 percent as pro-life. In light of the historical polling data and conventional political wisdom on abortion, this is nothing short of a minor miracle. And yet, even though the poll has been out for over a week, a search of the New York Times, Washington Post, L.A. Times, and the Associated Press finds nary a mention of this potentially major shift in popular opinion.Gallup didn't even issue a press release to generate some buzz about this intriguing poll result. It was posted on their website, but not on the front page or any page highlighting their latest polls.To be perfectly honest, I firmly believe that any single poll must be taken with a grain of salt. However, the media does not abide by this rule when a poll result confirms their liberal instincts.
http://www.ncfpc.org/stories/030602s1.html
Gallup Latest on America's Abortion Opinion
Special Report - June 2, 2003
The country’s views on abortion have remained relatively steady over the last year—a new Gallup poll finds—with 42 percent of respondents saying that abortion should remain legal,
That leaves 58% should be illegal.
but only in a few circumstances. On either extreme, 23 percent say that abortion should remain legal under any circumstance, while 19 percent feel it should be illegal in all circumstances. When asked under which circumstances they would support abortion, 82 percent of respondents said when the woman’s life is endangered, 72 percent in the case of rape or incest, 60 percent when the child would be born with a life-threatening illness, 50 percent when the child would be born mentally disabled, and 41 percent when the woman does not want the child for any reason. Each of these percentages dropped when applied to the third trimester.
In an apparent contradiction, while most Americans find some circumstance under which abortion should remain legal, a majority (53 percent) believes that abortion is morally wrong, while only 37 percent find it morally acceptable. This increase in moral opposition to abortion is up 8 percent from just two years ago when only 45 percent of respondents felt that abortion was morally wrong. Not surprisingly, there is a clear link between religious involvement and moral opposition to abortion. Seventy-eight percent of those who attend religious services weekly believe that abortion is morally wrong, while only 28 percent of those who seldom or never attend religious services feel the same. Women are also more likely to be morally opposed to abortion than men (56 to 49 percent respectively), as are those who are older, living in the East and identified as Republican. An earlier Gallup poll found a large majority (75 percent) of Americans opposed to partial-birth abortion while only 25 percent in support. This is significant as a partial-birth abortion ban continues its way through Congress.
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2003/feb/03021705.html
GALLUP POLL SAYS 70% IN FAVOUR OF PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTION BAN
WASHINGTON, February 17, 2003 (LifeSiteNews.com) - With a bill to ban partial birth abortion introduced last week, the National Right to Life has released the results of a Gallup poll on the procedure.
The January 2003 Gallup poll found that 70% favoured and 25% opposed "a law that would make it illegal to perform a specific abortion procedure conducted in the last six months of pregnancy known as 'partial birth abortion,' except in cases necessary to save the life of the mother."
NRLC warns however that some lawmakers who oppose the bill tell their constituents that they favour competing measures to restrict "late-term" abortions. The bills to which they refer are "phony bans" that are riddled with gaping exclusions and loopholes.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_poll2.htm
Here only 3.6% consider abortion a major issue with a margin of error at 3.2%
Zogby poll of 2000-MAY:
Zogby conducted a poll of 1,016 "likely voters" to determine "what is the top issue facing the country [U.S.] today." They found that 34.8% of adults considered education, healthcare, or crime/drugs/violence to be the most serious issue. Abortion access was not a high priority concern for American adults. The pollsters lumped those who consider abortion to be the top issue, with those who consider "social issues, welfare, poverty" as the most important issues. The total for all four was only 3.6%. The margin of error is approximately 3.2 percentage points.
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If people want to kill their own offspring then let 'em. The world is probably better off without their genes in the pool anyhow. There should be an age limit though, maybe around 18yrs?
Let's just not sugar coat it by calling them fetuses. No difference between killing an 18 year old and a pba imo anyhow. Well, except that it might a lot more fun to kill some 18 year olds. ;)
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Originally posted by Fishu
... then we should as well ban masturbation, ......
Sure.. ruin my sex life BUTTHEAD!!! :mad:
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Ok JBA, where does it say 60% on all abortions? And I see those sites would have no bias.
"To be perfectly honest, I firmly believe that any single poll must be taken with a grain of salt. " That from your link.
Date Pro-choice Pro-life Mixed/neither
2000-JUL 50% 40% 4%
2000-MAR 48 43 2
1999-APR 48 42 3
1998-JAN 48 45 3
1997-AUG 47 44 3
1996-MAR 56 37 5
1995-SEP 56 33 5
Which poll do we go by, oh, I know, the one poll in the last twenty years that you like.
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Originally posted by AKIron
If people want to kill their own offspring then let 'em. The world is probably better off without their genes in the pool anyhow.
Spoken like a true christian
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Spoken like a true christian
What would you know about it? This homey don't play the guilt trip some of you would try to lay down, kiss my prettythang.
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Originally posted by AKIron
What would you know about it? This homey don't play the guilt trip some of you would try to lay down, kiss my prettythang.
You're on a roll
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Originally posted by Sixpence
You're on a roll
I never stop rollin', no moss on me.
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Originally posted by AKIron
I never stop rollin', no moss on me.
You go boy
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Sixpence, ya know I'm not advocating killing babies. However, it is being done in our country on a large scale. In case you couldn't tell I was being sarcastic. I don't believe the innocent should be deprived of life no matter how little respect their parents may have for it. Just setting the record straight here.
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I'm not for killing babies either. Go figure.
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bring on the old faithful wire hanger :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Ok JBA, where does it say 60% on all abortions? And I see those sites would have no bias.
"To be perfectly honest, I firmly believe that any single poll must be taken with a grain of salt. " That from your link.
Date Pro-choice Pro-life Mixed/neither
2000-JUL 50% 40% 4%
2000-MAR 48 43 2
1999-APR 48 42 3
1998-JAN 48 45 3
1997-AUG 47 44 3
1996-MAR 56 37 5
1995-SEP 56 33 5
Which poll do we go by, oh, I know, the one poll in the last twenty years that you like.
since when did Gallup and Zogy become Bias
GALLUP POLL SAYS 70% IN FAVOUR OF PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTION BAN
WASHINGTON, February 17, 2003 (LifeSiteNews.com) - With a bill to ban partial birth abortion introduced last week, the National Right to Life has released the results of a Gallup poll on the procedure.
The January 2003 Gallup poll found that 70% favoured and 25% opposed "a law that would make it illegal to perform a specific abortion procedure conducted in the last six months of pregnancy known as 'partial birth abortion,' except in cases necessary to save the life of the mother."
NRLC warns however that some lawmakers who oppose the bill tell their constituents that they favour competing measures to restrict "late-term" abortions. The bills to which they refer are "phony bans" that are riddled with gaping exclusions and loopholes.
Zogby conducted a poll of 1,016 "likely voters" to determine "what is the top issue facing the country [U.S.] today." They found that 34.8% of adults considered education, healthcare, or crime/drugs/violence to be the most serious issue. Abortion access was not a high priority concern for American adults. The pollsters lumped those who consider abortion to be the top issue, with those who consider "social issues, welfare, poverty" as the most important issues. The total for all four was only 3.6%. The margin of error is approximately 3.2 percentage points.
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It's like killing babies I guess...
(http://www.chargers.com/images/news_images/flutie_week10_03_200x300.jpg)
Hoopty smiley thing here...
:rofl
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*simply walks away*
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"Could one of you pro-choice folks please explain to me why the new partial birth abortion ban bill is bad?
If it contains provisions to allow this procedure to be performed to save the life of the mother, then why can't it be banned for all other situations? "
Based on the description of how this is done, at what point is the life of the mother in danger. Hell, give the kid a tug and he is born and she is off to recovery.
This process in infanticide. Plain and simple. No grey area here.
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Holy ****! I ignored this thread the first time around. Texace I'm so sorry to hear that. I'd strangle those two bastards if I had the chance.
Any updates on the situation?
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I just wonder how we could have had a civil discussion about one of the most barbaric "medical" procedures ever invented.
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I'm sort of torn on this issue.
I believe that all children who have a chance at life (I.E. no incredibly crippling diseases) should have just that. A chance.
But then again, It's not my body.
However, partial Birth Abortions is one of the most disgusting medical acts ever. Should be banned world wide.
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"Not gonn' do-ait"
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Good God Its simple.
If the child in question is going to be born with over whelming birth defects and the PARENTS choose to terminate the pregnancy that should be there right.
As a form of birth controll i would have to say no HELL NO.
And it really chaps my arse to hear a womans right to choose.
yeah she had a right to choose not to get pregnate in the first place!!
I would hope there would be none amonge us that would even pretend to tell a young couple what to do with there severly
deformed or challenged fetuse.
It trully would be a hellish choice for them to make but theres and theres alone not uncle sam!!
Unless uncle sam is going to step up and pay for all the specialized care and hospital care this child will need the rest of its life.
But on the other hand lets say little 17 year old bambi is getting knocked up by biff the football star and all of a sudden OH MY GOD I need an abortion.
EEEHHHHH wrong i dont think she should be able to just walk in the abortion clinic and terminate a life just like that.
She should have to carry the child to term then put it up for adoption to a caring couple that will love and nuture the child.
At some point people in the world are going to have to take responsability for there actions.
You wanna play well guess what you might have to PAY!!
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Many people don't know what a Partial Birth Abortion is. They just know that the phrase is bad.
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A partial birth abortion is just about what it sounds like.
The baby Is pretty well formed has all its toes and fingers.
Indeed it looks like you quessed it a BABY cause It Is a BABY.
Im not sure but I think you can tell the sex of the BABY as well.
An ugly procedure for everyone envolved.
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The baby is actually born during a Partial Birth Abortion.
The only difference between a PBA and Murder is the fact that the umbilical cord is still attached.
Anyway, they take a wierd looking scissor apparatus, shove it into the brain stem, then open it up.
Hence why i object to PBA's.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
The baby is actually born during a Partial Birth Abortion.
The only difference between a PBA and Murder is the fact that the umbilical cord is still attached.
Anyway, they take a wierd looking scissor apparatus, shove it into the brain stem, then open it up.
Hence why i object to PBA's.
Rgr that I was just trying to not make anyone puke.
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When a nation loses its level of civilisation, human life loses its value. Is only going to get worse, so prepare to puke a lot.
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
When a nation loses its level of civilisation, human life loses its value. Is only going to get worse, so prepare to puke a lot.
miko
A sad state of affairs but yes you are so right Miko:mad:
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Huh...interesting debate goin on...