Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Spatula on November 01, 2000, 04:37:00 PM
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With all the dicussion about pricing, i'd like to throw this log on the fire and see what happens:
What about giving a 'loyalty dicount' for those that have been a member for X months/years. Make it attractive enough so people aim for it - like a months free or flat-rate of $25.00 or something.
<spat sits back braces himself>
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I like that idea. If you have an open account you should be able to build up something like airline miles and then cash them in for certain things like....
1. Perk planes (what are these anyway?)
2. Free month of service
3. Squad leader for an upcoming special event
Each thing could have a different credit value, so you could trade them in for cheaper things (like a perk plane) or save them up for a free month.
BTW... being new, I missed when this "perk plane" idea came out. I am guessing a perk plane is one that would not be available normally in the arena. Is that accurate?
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"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"
Midnight
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Spatula:
That idea makes no business sense. You are a "loyal" customer because you like the product. You are getting a good value for your money. That is a reason you are staying. Why should company charge you less? It would have to pay less dividend to the investors and less salary to the employees.
Investors risk their capital and enable business and employees work and bet their future on the company success.
You do neither - you are just playing and enjoying yourself. Why should either of them subsidise you?
A company, unless it is a nonprofit organisation, has an obligatin before it's shareholders and employees to maximize the profit. Lowering prices for no good reason goes against that obligation. Competition is a good reason, pity is not.
And why do you use the word loyalty? You would not stay with HTC if the game was bad, but only while you liked it. That is not loyalty.
Midnight:
The "perk" is not a good description because none will have to earn a right to fly the plane. For every hour you stay online you will accumulate points and then you can spend those points on a "perk" plane.
That would assure the following things:
1. Everyone can fly a "perk" plane the same fraction of their time on average. Of course people who do not break their "perk" planes will be able to use them more.
2. There will be "uber" planes present in the arena creating diversity, but not too many of them as to make the other planes useless.
3. When flown, those "uber" planes will be less dangerous because a person flying it will be afraid to loose it. Someone flying a Me262 armed with 4 cannons will not go head-on all the time because it will risk his plane. If he does and loses, he will not be able to fly it again for quite a while.
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 11-01-2000).]
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So how many of you think the Osty is overmadeled and inspired by the FW190?
<blatant theft of thread in progress>
Mav (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by miko2d:
Spatula:
That idea makes no business sense. You are a "loyal" customer because you like the product.
If it makes "no business sense" then why do airlines offer frequent fliers, employess bonus' for long terms of employment, why are there *so* many incentive schemes in business world?? You dont have to look very far to see thousands of schemes like this.
It *does* make sense. If you were a member of Aces High for X months just waiting for game Z to come out on the market and were intending to move as soon as the new game Z came out, then a valuable incentive scheme could persuade this person from taking his business elsewhere - ie being non-loyal (hence the name loyalty scheme...) So, HTC, theoritically, could offer this person $20/month to stay with AH, he may or may not take that offer. But without an incentive scheme he would have left anyway.
Originally posted by miko2d:
Why should company charge you less?
as an incentive...
Originally posted by miko2d:
It would have to pay less dividend to the investors and less salary to the employees.
Investors risk their capital and enable business and employees work and bet their future on the company success.
Not if it keeps people here rather than in MSCFS2 or WW2OL or WB3 or whatever current competition is. Your also assuming the rewards to 'loyal' players is monetary - not so, i suggested that as an example, not asked for it.
Originally posted by miko2d:
A company, unless it is a nonprofit organisation, has an obligatin before it's shareholders and employees to maximize the profit. Lowering prices for no good reason goes against that obligation. Competition is a good reason, pity is not.
Well darh...
Originally posted by miko2d:
And why do you use the word loyalty? You would not stay with HTC if the game was bad, but only while you liked it. That is not loyalty.
I do like it - very much. And i am loyal, because i choose to give HTC my money, no-one else - might not be the text-book definition of loyalty, but as far as quoting my use of the word 'loyalty', it was intended as some label they (HTC) can define to mean a fixed period of time player need to have been payed up for the recieve a some sort of bonus, whether that be monetary or other.
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errrr Spat??
it ain't loyalty if yer doing it to get rewarded....
thats just being mercenary...
I signed on for $30.00 a month..
Long as I get $30.00 a month worth of pleasure from this game, I'm happy to pay it.
If they offer me a lower rate in the future,, cool,,
if not,, so what??? I'll still be getting enjoyment worth more than what I'm paying now.
Besides, when I'm flying, I'm NOT spending money taking out my girlfriend, (on a slow nite she can go through $100.00 easily) I'm also NOT being annoyed with her mindless chatter, her equally mindless family, I'm NOT turning my brain to mush watching the boob tube, (though my eyes are turning to mush trying to figure out which way that guy coming at me is actually facing)..
etc. etc.
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GreyBeard, Squadron Leader
Commander, "E" Flight, Aces High
Senior Staff Council
"The Skeleton Crew"
"Fly with Honor"[/i]
"Keepin' the Faith"
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Ok so the word 'loyalty' perhaps aint the right choice of words. I didnt bring this up in the hope to get a cheaper rate - i have no problems paying $30 US (even if the exchange rate is killing me). I bought it up as a possible idea that HTC *may* want to consider. You guys can play on words untill the cows come home, but if it is such a non-noteworthy idea, then why is this sort of incentive scheme such a common place?
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If it makes "no business sense" then why do airlines offer frequent fliers, employess bonus' for long terms of employment, why are there *so* many incentive schemes in business world?? You dont have to look very far to see thousands of schemes like this.
Well because there's another airline flying the same destination, the same aircraft etc. There's another supermarket selling the same products etc. But they want you to fly/shop/whatever with them - that's why all the "loyalty" schemes.
HTC is selling the product that is considered by many to be the best available.
Many of us used to fly WB, some still do both, some just pay money to iEN - why am I still paying them 10 bucks a month? Duh! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Sorry - I digressed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Anyhow - when AH came along it offered more fun/quality for the money - people moved on. I can afford $30 month and I believe AH to be superior - no amount of "loyalty" offers would drag me back to WB. I guess it works the same for many others.
That's why it makes no business sense (as miko pointed out) for HTC to run "loyalty" schemes, they would be literally giving money away for no reason.
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lynx
13 Sqn RAF
[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 11-02-2000).]
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If it makes "no business sense" then why do airlines offer frequent fliers, employess bonus' for long terms of employment, why are there *so* many incentive schemes in business world?? You dont have to look very far to see thousands of schemes like this.
Erm.. frequent flyer miles? I suppose airlines offer frequent flyer miles for one very specific reason: THE MORE YOU FLY THE MORE YOU PAY. BY THE TIME YOU EARN ENOUGH FREQUENT FLYER MILES TO BE WORTH ANYTHING YOU'VE ALREADY PAID MORE THAN ENOUGH IN FARES TO COVER IT.
Sheesh.
I wonder if airlines would give a flat rate to customers? One monthly fee.. no matter how much they fly... then reward them with frequent flyer miles.
AKDejaVu
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I think there's a lot of merit to the idea and with the right information to go implement it, it would make a lot of business sense. It's definately worth thinking about and we do have a number of things in that area such as recruitment bonuses and bulk buying that needs our attention as well.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Or offer a block discount, i.e. FA where you get 6 months for $50 or $10 a month. What about 6 months for the price of 5 with a cap or T-shirt thrown in (wearing my latest FA T-shirt, the white one with the planes on the back at work now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) while I wait patiently for my AH con cap and T-Shirt). I realize AH isn't as big as FA thus the lack of discounts. No problem here. Perfectly happy paying $30, a dollar a day for this distraction. Dollar per hour, it's the best spent monthly expense I have (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Eagler
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
Well because there's another airline flying the same destination, the same aircraft etc. There's another supermarket selling the same products etc. But they want you to fly/shop/whatever with them - that's why all the "loyalty" schemes.
HTC is selling the product that is considered by many to be the best available.
Yes, but there *is* competition out there for Aces High.
Originally posted by -lynx-:
That's why it makes no business sense (as miko pointed out) for HTC to run "loyalty" schemes, they would be literally giving money away for no reason.
I disagree, and have made my points why. You also mention a waste of money - it need not be money - any incentive would work.
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Erm.. frequent flyer miles? I suppose airlines offer frequent flyer miles for one very specific reason: THE MORE YOU FLY THE MORE YOU PAY. BY THE TIME YOU EARN ENOUGH FREQUENT FLYER MILES TO BE WORTH ANYTHING YOU'VE ALREADY PAID MORE THAN ENOUGH IN FARES TO COVER IT.
Sheesh.
The more discount they give you the more you will fly with *that* company and not others. Ie my point all along...
Sheesh...
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Originally posted by Pyro:
I think there's a lot of merit to the idea and with the right information to go implement it, it would make a lot of business sense. It's definately worth thinking about and we do have a number of things in that area such as recruitment bonuses and bulk buying that needs our attention as well.
Thanks Pyro. I bought this up for debate and to maybe introduce an idea that may *help* HTC, not to skimp on $5 a month or whatever.
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Nice idea. BTW, HTC knows how to reward helping customers.
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Yes, but there *is* competition out there for Aces High.
Bummer - here's one that just wouldn't go away (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
But of course there *isn't* Spat! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Let me put it this way:
Porsche vs. Ford - is there a competition? No, there's *none* cuz Porsche caters for customers who don't make their buying decision based on whether they get a free set of mats thrown in. They're buying Porsche cuz they know what they buying - performance, quality, image. Ford customers... err... Oh well, somebody's gotta buy them, right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
BTW, if you can't afford a Porsche it doesn't make you any worse a person - you just can't afford one, OK? In good old WB days many were stating that they would ditch AW, FA whatever if they were able to afford WB hourly rate cuz they saw superior product.
Anyway - HTC may think up schemes to entice more people to sign up, including different pricing schemes. They also may offer bulk purchase discounts - improves cashflow. But offering existing customers discounts or incentives of any sort is a waste of money - we are not here because it's cheaper then the "competition". We are here because it's better, OK? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
p.s. There's nothing free in the world - so incentives of any sort *cost* money...
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lynx
13 Sqn RAF
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
[B
Porsche vs. Ford - is there a competition? No, there's *none* cuz Porsche caters for customers who don't make their buying decision based on whether they get a free set of mats thrown in. They're buying Porsche cuz they know what they buying - performance, quality, image. Ford customers... err... Oh well, somebody's gotta buy them, right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[/B]
What if you really like Fords but the model you like aint out yet, so for the meantime, while the model is getting on the production line, you buy a porsche to fill the need for a fast car? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) See the parallels? WW2OL? WB3?
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Originally posted by Spatula:
If it makes "no business sense" then why do airlines ... You dont have to look very far to see thousands of schemes like this.
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It *does* make sense.
Spatula,
If there are thousands of schemes like that employed by businessess, then why does each of them has a markering department where highly educated smart people with MBAs and PhDs are paid higher salaries then those that actually produce the product?
The truth is that every single scheme is different, requiring extensive research and testing.
You only see the results and they all look the same to you because you are ignorant in that area. There is nothing wrong with that kind of ignorance as long as you do not start shooting your mouth about things you know little about.
Can you tell high-quality steel from low quality steel by sight? Can you tell whether normal or lognormal distribution better describes stock market volume? Can you tell a super-productive genetically engineered milk cow from a meat cow? Probably not.
Can you tell a diference between selling a commodity available from many sources (airlines) and unique custom product available from at most two vendors and substantially dissimilar at that? Obviously not!
Why do you think you know enough about marketing schemes to argue?
When I post statements on gunnery or milirary I make sure to mention that I served in the military and rode T72 and when I talk about Russia I state that I lived there for a quarter of a century. I could even say something about US healthcare based on my sister being a nurse.
I would be sure to listen to your opinion on drumming, surfing, New Zeland polytics or whatever you are programming in. I am sure you are a smart and quite knowlegeable specialist in your areas of expertise.
Please, do be offended. I tend to put my foot in my mouth quite often. Your first post is quite all right - a question, suggestion and request for comments that could extend anybody's knowlege. Your following posts are much more forcefull and argumentative, while unsubstantiated other then by unrelated examples. If you had some specific knowlege or contacts in the marketing area you should have supplied some data to support your claims. It is pretty obvious from your post that you do not.
As for the loyalty rewards, HTC may implement such a scheme for the same or very different reasons that you mentioned if and when sircumstances demand that.
No matter what they do, they will keep the reasons secret because that kind of information is highly proprietary and costs company lots of money (and bad will - as in the latest HTC price study) to obtain.
Why am I replying to you here instead of sending a personal e-mail?
I resent that people like you are exciting others and making them believe that they are entitled to something in a way of a price cut. It is not healthy for the company and the game.
First six months all you could hear on this board was how much better AH was at $30 per months then WB at hundreds $$ per month many of us spent. Now $30 for much better product seems too much to you. You may not believe it but I've seen statements on this and other boards that all internet and other entertainment should be free! Such pople are used to crappy free games offered by various sites and paid for by ads and think that is OK. They propagated the Freehost as a "protest" against corporate profit-making forgetting that someone must make those nice things. As a software engineer you should know better how much it costs. Decent programmer routinely gets paid over $100,000/year here in New York. That is 278 $30/year accounts!
You have $10 sims with no ongoing development (hence very low expenses) for years. You have $10 sims that operate for years at a loss, run by huge corporations with bottomless pockets in order to ensure "presence" and "market share". Unfortunately those sims are crap.
HTC is a great game developing at breackneck speed. It costs money. We need to encourage more people to join and pay $30, not discourage existing customers from paying current rate.
As for people who cannot currently afford AH and squeak about it? I have much less sympathy for them now then I had to people who could not afford WB. After all, AH gives us free unlimited 8-person play, not crappy H2H with simplified FM of WB! How many people are content with that and never subscribe?
I would doubt how smart that was on HTC's part if I did not believe they kneww what they were doing based on their hard-earned reputation.
Regards,
miko
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Wonderfully stated Miko! That part of your letter captures the essence of my thoughts regarding the comments from many people in regard to AH pricing.
(The first part is all between you and him and I make NO comment on that at all)
<S> and thank you.
-Westy
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I resent that people like you are exciting others and making them believe that they are entitled to something in a way of a price cut. It is not healthy for the company and the game.
First six months all you could hear on this board was how much better AH was at $30 per months then WB at hundreds $$ per month many of us spent. Now $30 for much better product seems too much to you. You may not believe it but I've seen statements on this and other boards that all internet and other entertainment should be free! Such pople are used to crappy free games offered by various sites and paid for by ads and think that is OK. They propagated the Freehost as a "protest" against corporate profit-making forgetting that someone must make those nice things. As a software engineer you should know better how much it costs. Decent programmer routinely gets paid over $100,000/year here in New York. That is 278 $30/year accounts!
You have $10 sims with no ongoing development (hence very low expenses) for years. You have $10 sims that operate for years at a loss, run by huge corporations with bottomless pockets in order to ensure "presence" and "market share". Unfortunately those sims are crap.
HTC is a great game developing at breackneck speed. It costs money. We need to encourage more people to join and pay $30, not discourage existing customers from paying current rate.
As for people who cannot currently afford AH and squeak about it? I have much less sympathy for them now then I had to people who could not afford WB. After all, AH gives us free unlimited 8-person play, not crappy H2H with simplified FM of WB! How many people are content with that and never subscribe?
I would doubt how smart that was on HTC's part if I did not believe they kneww what they were doing based on their hard-earned reputation.
Regards,
miko
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Greybeard - there are some boob-tubes I could watch all night :}
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Originally posted by miko2d:
The truth is that every single scheme is different, requiring extensive research and testing.
Yup, this is why i suggested it to HTC to *do* that research and make a decision based on that rather than my ramblings.
Originally posted by miko2d:
You only see the results and they all look the same to you because you are ignorant in that area.
You loose *all* credibility with this statement. Making personal attacks on the people you are debating points with is not needed.
Originally posted by miko2d:
There is nothing wrong with that kind of ignorance as long as you do not start shooting your mouth about things you know little about.
When did i make a claim to being an expert in marketing? I bought a point up, you counter-argued and i set about counter-arguing your point.
Originally posted by miko2d:
Can you tell high-quality steel from low quality steel by sight? Can you tell whether normal or lognormal distribution better describes stock market volume? Can you tell a super-productive genetically engineered milk cow from a meat cow? Probably not.
Can you tell a diference between selling a commodity available from many sources (airlines) and unique custom product available from at most two vendors and substantially dissimilar at that? Obviously not!
I dont need to know any of that trivia to argue a point.
Originally posted by miko2d:
Why do you think you know enough about marketing schemes to argue?
I dont. Im not auguing marketing schemes, i suggested one and argued some points to at least try give the idea *some* credence.
Originally posted by miko2d:
Your following posts are much more forcefull and argumentative, while unsubstantiated other then by unrelated examples.
I make no apologies for being argumentative, as thats in my nature. My examples are related to the point i tried to make otherwise i wouldnt have put them in.
Originally posted by miko2d:
As for the loyalty rewards, HTC may implement such a scheme for the same or very different reasons that you mentioned if and when sircumstances demand that.
If my post made HTC even think a little about my original idea, then it suceeded in its original goal, irrespective of if they do it or not.
Originally posted by miko2d:
Why am I replying to you here instead of sending a personal e-mail?
I suspect its because you're as stubornly argumentative as i am (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Originally posted by miko2d:
I resent that people like you are exciting others and making them believe that they are entitled to something in a way of a price cut. It is not healthy for the company and the game.
You resent people like me? *how in the hell* do you know what people "like me" are like - you've never meet me. You resent people who rally the masses into presuring HTC into giving people cheap deals? free rides? discounts? Then you have contradicted yourself and it proves you have misunderstood me from the start - as i am *not* trying to do this. I mentioned it in the hope that HTC consider it, or something like it, and as you said: "that every single scheme is different, requiring extensive research and testing.
", and to do that research. HTC may well have been considering this before i mentioned it, maybe not, i just wanted to bring it to their attention - thats all. And i did.
I'm more than happy to pay HTC $30 per month, i would happily pay more. Like you said software engineers are paid good money, so money aint an an obstacle to me. My original intention was to help HTC keep some people who would have left, or are thinking of leaving (which we dont want).
Originally posted by miko2d:
HTC is a great game developing at breackneck speed. It costs money. We need to encourage more people to join and pay $30, not discourage existing customers from paying current rate.
well we agree on something it seems.
I dont even know this thread is continuing. lets just say we agree to disagree on this. I wont convince you of my points and vice versa. But please dont make assumptions about me personally or call me ignorant and that resent "people like me", its not me i set out to argue.
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Spatula,
Yes, my arguments look a bit more forcefull and less civil then they would be if I slept a night on them... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Sorry.
By "people like you" I only mean those misguided souls demanding lower prices. I am not referring to any of you other qualities.
You may not be "pressurung" HTC to give discounts, just suggest it, but many people may, after reading mesages like that. Of course it is your right to post whatever you wish.
It may not have been your intent to rally the masses, just suggest to HTC, but this is a forum, not an e-mail. Everything posted here is directed to the masses.
I think that some things, like cheating accusations and pricing requests are better handled discretely via e-mail even if valid because they always raise unhealthy attitudes.
As for the argument itself, I am really cheating! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). While I am not a marketing expert, I am expert enough in my area to know how different an expert opinion is from a laymans' one. So I am pretty safe arguing for the status quo - because if I was wrong, marketing experts employed by HTC would have done things differently already.
Also as a kind of expert in statistical analysis, I have the following view:
Peope who run the companies are usually more qualified in the business then average customers.
If I saw half of the people arguing for higher prrice and half of the peoope arguing for lower price, I would abstain from any conclusion - all three groups (companies included) may have many valid reasons.
Since I have yet to see a post demanding HTC to raise prices and plenty of posts "suggesting" lower prices I conclude that those people are either incompetent in that area or acting out of selfishness.
There are too many variables in the market research to use any of them to illustrate any point. For every guy who will switch to new game Z unless the price is reduced, you may have another one joining because more expensive product may seem more superior.
One $30 customer, once joined, is likely to stick for a while. So the growth will be more predictable and regulated. $10 guys may jump in in droves, driving arenas to overfill and connection quality to the ground and other customers away, make company buy more hardware, office space and support personnel, then quit and leave HTC holding the bag.
There is no way to easily compare that. What they do is run some kind of statistical multivariate analysis and get some optimal price not even knowing why it is the optimal price.
If a marketing person came to you and told you that in his opinion a multithreaded program is better then a single-threaded one you would think him a moron even though he may be right in some cases. I believe some marketing people are laughing about us now.
My whole point is - we do not know enough to argue about it.
Again, I tried attack your view, not your personality and I only presumed your "ignorance" in marketing area.
Regards,
miko