Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: hitech on September 25, 2000, 03:59:00 PM
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I posted once before but most people seemed to have not seen it or I wrote it poorly.
Ill try state them for you one more time. I Do understand your arguments, and did consider client side filtering.
Step 1 is to understand why I implemented the language filter.
Regardless of what anyone has posted only I can ansewer that question.
1. The filters intent is to change the atmospher/mood of the arena , and not to protect people from profanity.
You may belive this attitude is controling, or that im wanting to limit choices,or that im trying to be a moral cop. And that by implementing a client side filter it would just give more choice.
The problem I have with a client side filter is realy simple.
It does the exact oposit of what Im trying to accomplish. It promotes more profanity, and abusive behavior. And is purly designed to protect people from profanity who don't wish to here it.
People who love to abuse the open system, are also the personality types who would have the attitude.
Well if you don't like the way im using the system, just squelch me or change your filter list.
They would then go on to use an arguement somthing like, well if HTC didn't wish this type of behavor they would have done a HOST side filter or just eject me.
This is the precise attitude that can realy destroy peoples enjoyment of AH.It goes beyond the use of profanity and is more or less the attitude , I can act anyway I wish and you just have to live with it. AH has boundries that we set, some we set with game play changes/arena changes.
The chat filter is realy no different than lots of other game play adjustments that we make. Think about the days of being able to use gunners on buffs in ground defence.
We changed that because it was damaging some game play aspects. It's why killshooter exist,1 or 2 players can destroy the fun with killshooter off. The launguage filter is nothing different, it pushes players in the direction that we wish the game to go.
It's also why I have no problem with opening squad channel. A squad is a small group of people who at there meeting place ( i.e. there squad channel) can act as they wish.
If someone is not living up to the squad's standards they have meens to deal with it.
Changing the game,determining what is best for the game , the community, and HTC business is precisly what my job is.
I in no way belive I have all the solutions to all the issues that will come up over AH's life time.
That why we listen to the community for suggested changes. But this game is not run by a commity. My job is to make that choice as best I can or give the responceablity and athority to someone else, with all the information and views that I currently have in front of me.
Finaly.
This is not a new problem that we have encountered. In WB we had the identical problem in about it's same life cycle of the game. We took steps at that time to implement a filter with slightly different way of handling things. It just changed the words or substitude )*(*& type stuff. It accoumplished what we needed, but it was abused for the first few days and some players enjoyed finding ways around the system.
Hence why I chose the 10 min mute system. You only get 2 tries to go around the system every 10 mins.
In WB after a few weeks, the attitude in the arena changed and we were able to turn the filter back off.
HiTech
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Sounds like social democracy or judicial activism to me....
That is a joke, I think it is a very good thing to do, and, just like the stick-stirring penalty, it WILL work.
Lizking
p.s. I write my post, then copy it into an email to spell check it, then paste the corrected version back into here, hint, hint.
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HT. It has been suggested that racial slurs be added to the list. I disagree with this. Once, They get a no BS warning. Twice, there looking for a new sim.
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HiTech..
I appreciate you taking the time to explain what you did and why.. and I agree with your reasons for implementing it.
<S!>
Hang
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Thanks for taking the time to explain it hitech, i understand your viewpoint much more now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Thanks for the explaination. What you are doing is no more than exercising leadership. It's important to listen to the community, but in the end it's most important to listen to ones self.
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Sabre, a.k.a. Rojo
(S-2, The Buccaneers)
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Thanks for the explanation. I realize that if anyone as an individual tries to explain why he/she thinks you do something he/she may misrepresent the facts, so it is best to hear it "from the horse's mouth".
I applaud the filter for exactly the reasons you stated!
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Sounds like a plan to me...
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Works for me too...
<S>
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Well now that everyone is done smooching hitech's ass, I'll go ahead and give an honest response..
Hitech, forgive me if I dont press my lips to your buttocks, I am always of the opinion that one's opinions are much easier to hear when one is speaking standing up in front of the intended audience, instead of behind them on their knees.
I must say that I appreciate the fact that Hitech posted his reasoning here. When someone in charge posts their reasoning, its a sign of respect and attention that is missing in most businesses today.
That said, I am definitely opposed to the filter on the server side. I believe that a client side filter is most appropriate because it fosters the most amount of choice and freedom of action.
Sometimes, its appropriate to say "shit." There are even those occasions when a "diddly" or a "dirty potato" is fitting...for example, when some bastard starts talking on the public channel about how America was wrong to drop the bomb in WWII, I let him know exactly how i feel about the diddlyers that killed my grandpa.
I read your explanation Hitech, and I understand that this is your company and your business. I guess I just dont have a problem with the attitude of 'let them squelch me'
There are so few people in the main arena, we all know who to squelch go begin with. But on those occasions when the vast majority of people feel the need to cuss, Im all ears. Its flavor, its environment, its real life.
What is wrong with a filter? Its so simple, you either turn it ON or OFF. If you dont like foul language EVER, then TURN IT ON. You arent forced to squelch or ignore anyone.
Im glad youre open minded about the squad channel. To me, worst case scenario is this game stays like it is and you can cuss on squad channel only. Best case scenario, just make a filter.
Make a filter, make FILTER ON the default setting. Then people dont even have to turn it on. Noone is forced to do anything. If you want to hear cussing, turn the filter OFF.
There's simply no way this is goign to work.
Fdiddly
Fplow
Fuk
plow
Phuck
toejam
Fok
Fucc
No matter what you do, people will find a way to be stupid idiots, and that is why you have to use squelch or ignore anyways. There is NO, not one single server-side solution that you can program that will keep people from being idiots short of just banning them.
Hey, its your game, I know that, and I know that we can expect a slew of threads in response to this where all the borg run up to smooch your bellybutton some more and say "Well if you dont like it leave" - but i thought you might like to hear a different viewpoint...
Thanks
BotaBing
Kevin
[This message has been edited by BotaBing (edited 09-25-2000).]
[This message has been edited by BotaBing (edited 09-25-2000).]
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Botabing,
I certainly can appreciate your viewpoint. But it is your's not mine. I also find it interesting that when people go out of their way to congratulate HTC and CO that some consider it bellybutton Kissing. Note the names of the posters before you, include mine too. I am not bellybutton Kissing if I congratulate HT on something I beleived in to begin with. All those posting positive comments posted long before this one indicating they would prefer a filter rather than put up with what "we" consider abusive language.
I have met and conversed face to face with HT and Pyro. They are really cool guys. They both give me a good feeling. They are upbeat and trying very hard to get something going here that most will find fun and entertaining. They have this sim and it's community at heart. There are a lot of people who do not appreciate that because they have never had the opportunity I have to talk to them Face To Face.
Call this bellybutton Kissing if you want Botabing, it's your perogative. I liked you in the arena when we flew together on some missions but your attitude concerning the motives for why some people are congratulating HT and CO on their decision leaves me puzzled and dissapointed.
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MarkAT
"It is not the critic who counts,
it is the man in the arena..."
Teddy Roosevelt
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TY Hitech. I have been for in favor of the filter from the beginning so I really didnt need or casre for an explanantion. I do applaud your desire to appease the crowd. Thx man.
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Gotta love this... we've recently got Web filter at Work, half way thru this post:
Forbidden
The rest of the requested document will not be shown:
Reason: DDR - Inappropriate Page Content - 77.
Please contact your local administrator if you feel this page has been blocked in error.
HT can you put the filter on the BBS too so I can read the whoopee posts :-)
BTW I'm voting on the filter with my wallet... and u still getting my money <grin>. I'm taking Leave it to Beaver lessons and learning to say 'gosh' and 'darn'.
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One happy butt-kisser here. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I finely made it to an bellybutton kisser list. (easymo throws out his chest).
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Originally posted by BotaBing:
Well now that everyone is done smooching hitech's ass, I'll go ahead and give an honest response..
_____________________________ __
I wasn't done yet, WTG HTC!!!!
Hitech, forgive me if I dont press my lips to your buttocks, I am always of the opinion that one's opinions are much easier to hear when one is speaking standing up in front of the intended audience, instead of behind them on their knees.
_____________________________
I think your confusing a pat on the back, with a kiss on the ass.
I must say that I appreciate the fact that Hitech posted his reasoning here. When someone in charge posts their reasoning, its a sign of respect and attention that is missing in most businesses today.
_____________________________ ___________
Well said.
That said, I am definitely opposed to the filter on the server side. I believe that a client side filter is most appropriate because it fosters the most amount of choice and freedom of action.
_____________________________ __
I disagree, But I won't call you a whiner, for speaking an opposing view, as you shouldn't call people bellybutton kissers who agree.
Sometimes, its appropriate to say "shit." There are even those occasions when a "diddly" or a "dirty potato" is fitting...for example, when some bastard starts talking on the public channel about how America was wrong to drop the bomb in WWII, I let him know exactly how i feel about the diddlyers that killed my grandpa.
I read your explanation Hitech, and I understand that this is your company and your business. I guess I just dont have a problem with the attitude of 'let them squelch me'
There are so few people in the main arena, we all know who to squelch go begin with. But on those occasions when the vast majority of people feel the need to cuss, Im all ears. Its flavor, its environment, its real life.
What is wrong with a filter? Its so simple, you either turn it ON or OFF. If you dont like foul language EVER, then TURN IT ON. You arent forced to squelch or ignore anyone.
Im glad youre open minded about the squad channel. To me, worst case scenario is this game stays like it is and you can cuss on squad channel only. Best case scenario, just make a filter.
Make a filter, make FILTER ON the default setting. Then people dont even have to turn it on. Noone is forced to do anything. If you want to hear cussing, turn the filter OFF.
There's simply no way this is goign to work.
Fdiddly
Fplow
Fuk
plow
Phuck
toejam
Fok
Fucc
No matter what you do, people will find a way to be stupid idiots, and that is why you have to use squelch or ignore anyways. There is NO, not one single server-side solution that you can program that will keep people from being idiots short of just banning them.
Hey, its your game, I know that, and I know that we can expect a slew of threads in response to this where all the borg run up to smooch your bellybutton some more and say "Well if you dont like it leave" - but i thought you might like to hear a different viewpoint...
Thanks
BotaBing
Kevin
[This message has been edited by BotaBing (edited 09-25-2000).]
[This message has been edited by BotaBing (edited 09-25-2000).]
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Thanks for taking the time to explain the philosophy, HT.
I agree with the guy who said this is just Leadership. He's correct. It is your right and your responsibility to guide the game to your goal.
No problems with the filter here.
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HiTech,
I have to add my voice to those who support your efforts. <SALUTE> While I personally prefer a client-side filter, I support anything you do to try to improve the "atmosphere" in the arenas. We all must take responsibility for our actions. In the past I have been a tad too loose with my language and have "said" some things I have regreted the moment I hit the return key. I am more than willing to take all of this as a "wakeup call" and clean up my act. Some may call my attitude "a**-kissing". These are the same people who appear, judging by their remarks on this board, to be unwilling to take responsibility for their own actions and I don't have any respect for them anyway. But I do have respect for you and your team of developers and what you are trying to accomplish here, with Aces High, so keep up the good work and ...
I'M IN!
buhdman, out
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Walt (buhdman) Barrow
(formerly lt-buhd-lite)
The Buccaneers - "Return with Honor"
home.earthlink.net/~wjbarrow
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BotaBing,
I do respect you you as a member of Aces High. However, allow me to give you the following:
Lets say I have the opportunity to start my own law practice and I have clients waiting for my services. In a lobby full of paying clients, someone comes in raising hell, cussing and S^%# and &%@* that and ^%$# *&^ %$&@!$% %$#$&(*&!
Now as part of a successful law practice, should I believe that a client side filter is most appropriate because it fosters the most amount of choice and freedom of action? Should I give all my paying clients ear plugs?
No, I would just mute the offender.
Now, what goes on in the private offices (squad channels) is one thing. But when it comes to the lobby, I sure wouldn't run my practice that way.
[This message has been edited by Ozark (edited 09-25-2000).]
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Originally posted by hitech:
Changing the game,determining what is best for the game , the community, and HTC business is precisly what my job is.
HiTech
Some of us, assuredly not the most vocal, and perhaps not vocal enough at times, realize that running an online community and allowing it to grow like you and Pyro have, is an acquired skill, and thats why we have followed you here.
[/end long run on sentence]
Kudos to you spell checker. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (Veronica?)
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Lake City
-lakc-
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Hey HT! Put your butt out! Here ya go!
Whoa! Keep your pants on. We don't know each other that well......yet!!
Smmmmmmoooooocccccchhhhhhh!!!
Thanks for the filter!!
Can ya make a filter for the BBS too???
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by BotaBing:
Hitech, forgive me if I dont press my lips to your buttocks, I am always of the opinion that one's opinions are much easier to hear when one is speaking standing up in front of the intended audience, instead of behind them on their knees.
If you're talking to me, You'll have to try harder than that bro. Trying to shame us all into being *cool cussin' daddy's* like yourself is simply just junior high roadkill.
I can't speak for the other guys, but as for me, I actually think the idea is sound.
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HT, first, your business, your rules. If it get's to the point of intolerability somehow (which, since I don't play AH for the conversation, is unlikely), I'll unplug. I do appreciate the direct response.
Second; I disagree with your approach by it's basic theory. This is little different from a bookseller deciding not to print content it would find morally objectionable. Given the breadth of things that can be found to be morally objectionable, I simply do not believe this is appropiate as a response. I don't buy hate books. I don't like them, or the authors behind them. So for example that's a simple equasion that would seem easy to dismiss via publisher refusal.
On the otherhand, I have bought Playboy. I'll never buy Hustler. To me there is a difference in tone and taste between the two that makes one occasionally interesting and the other simply demeaning. A book on body art would also appeal, as would a book on tatooing. A book on S&M does nothing for me.
The problem is that all of these things are easy to blanket as morally offensive to some people, and probably not something I would leave on the coffee room table when my friend with his child was visiting. But I don't want to be forced to go to a cum-smeared adult bookstore to find a book on body art or simply Playboy, and that's what I'd be dealing with if these topics were relagated to 3rd string publishers either because the major publishers refused to print them, or because laws were passed that refused their sale in a open environment.
I think you're taking the same approach by making a moral decision for me as the reader rather than letting me do this for myself. You believe that swearing in particular has negitive social effects and adversely affects the game. I believe that swearing is symptom rather than cause, I suspect you agree, and I sense that you are simply trying to treat the symptom as best you can given a lack of ability to reform 2,000 people into social acceptability. So I do understand wanting to damp the tone of obnoxicity, but I firmly believe that it's better to allow the individual to decide what they want to hear and see, than it is to decide for them.
Again, so say Thog, who doesn't know how this whole 'life' thing is going to turn out either.
I guess the thing that I've found really appalling is the sheer number of people who are delighted by all this. I think at best censorship is to be tolerated. Revelling in banning behavior you don't personally agree with shows a remarkable lack of foresight.
Thog
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Thog, so is playboy sensoring by not allowing hustler type photos in there mag.?
All im doing is the exactly the same thing as to why you enjoy playboy , but not hustler. I tailor my product to suit my desired market.
HiTech
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Well said again thog.
I'd really like to see a client side filter.
I still haven't decided if the server side filter is better than none at all.
AKDejaVu
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HT, that makes too much sense. These guys will never comprehend that.
Try something like...
Free speach for all! No more opression from the man!
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A necessary thing me thinks. WTG on the filter and it's in the right place.
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To Hitech: Again, its your call, you make it. I understand your post and I appreciate that you share your reasoning with us. That said, I disagree with the means to your end, and I think a client side filter on/off would be a better solution. The filter as it currently exists doesn't stop people from being annoying.
My main complaint, has been and is squad talk...if I cannot be free to be myself in squad talk, then this is not the game or the environment for me.
To all the asskissers:
The one thing about this game that gets very tiresome is watching the rank-and-file booty smoochers run up to jump in with the high-fives and the crack licking eveytime they see an opportunity. You know exactly what im talking about. Its one thing to agree, or state your opinion, its another thing for the same people over and over to constantly spam their asskissing on the boards and in the game.
[This message has been edited by BotaBing (edited 09-25-2000).]
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WTG HTC!!!
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Sigh, I guess I need to be added to the choir. I appreciate the filter. I was tired of the type of language and the attitude that went with it. That type of language is not a sign of having "grown up". It is exactly the opposite. I log on to fly, not "listen" to some egotist who feels they have to spew trash on the main buffer. If you can't fly with out the "trash" take a hike. It makes about as much sense to have a "need" to cuss as it is to insist that skill at a game makes you a better person that anyone else. It's a game, a way to spend leisure time, not a means to dump on another person.
Rant off
Mav
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Ill line up with the bellybutton kisser, those of you who work around airplanes know that we mechanics can cuss up a storm. But even then it is not right to cuss in front of everyone, withh all the training I have been threw in the military and American Airlines you learn that if it offends 1 person that is 1 person to many. In most jobs you could get fired for offending or using the wrong languauge in front of the wrong person, mine included. If you have to cuss to enjoy this game then seek a good counsler cause something is wrong with you. I play this game to have fun and I do things my way unless Im with one of my two wingmen then I play alittle more seriously. I dont ever get upset at a game.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Indians Home page were links to help pages can be found.
Indian's Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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Seems fine..
Lets play ball.
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I think the filter is typical American prudeness also happens alot with music too.
where text is sometimes censored.
If it helps to make a better MA athmosphere ok .Than it should be, but the most worse argument i heard was that children where looking.
Than we should mute reallife too and that is impossible.
Cursing does not make u a bad person it's just a uncontrolled moment realeasing some temper.
I also want to mention that i didn't invented the flexible F word
I learned it from ur american movies (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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You guys got crack and didn't invite me?
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To all the asskissers:
The one thing about this game that gets very tiresome is watching the rank-and-file booty smoochers run up to jump in with the high-fives and the crack licking eveytime they see an opportunity. You know exactly what im talking about. Its one thing to agree, or state your opinion, its another thing for the same people over and over to constantly spam their asskissing on the boards and in the game.
LOL.. I'll object to bein called an bellybutton kisser. LOL, my miserable hermit existence owes itself to the fact that at this late stage in my life I've never learned how to be an ass-kisser. LOL... if you came in my house with that line of BS.. called me an bellybutton kisser to my face; well, pilgrim; I'd kick yer bellybutton out on the street. And mail you yer teeth. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Let's not forget; it IS HiTech's game. He desinged it. Wrote it. Risked his bellybutton to produce it. Let us play with it for MONTHS free.
Yes we DO pay for the PRIVLEDGE to come in his house and play with his toys. But it's still his damn house; and his gawdamn toy.
So; don't confuse RESPECT for bellybutton kissin. And respect is what seems to be lacking here; and had some more of it been routinely displayed in the arena less of THIS would be the result.
<FINGER>
Hang
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 09-26-2000).]
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Well HT good job and I hope this game realy goes far but I like to be able to scream whine and cry all I want and use all the profanity I can think of....hehe look out quake here I come.
Hey good luck man..after I "grow up"..
ILL BE BACK
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"..he shoots fire out of his eyes and lightning bolts out of his arse..."
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Thanks for yor post HT.
To me, most important is your approach to customer base. We can agree or not on some particular issue, but you allways come with an answer. That's my main point (apart that this game is PLAIN FUN) to be here.
On this particular matter, I don't agree with your points, though I feel more comfortable after your explanation. Still believe that client side filter is at least as efficient as host sided one, and far less compulsory.
I thing Thog's post is 100% right, and, on your reply, you can buy either Playboy, Hustler or Fisherman Illustrated it's YOUR choice. That's the point. You can choose.
At the end, and as somebody said here, we all vote with our wallets, and I'm voting yes.
Hehehe, now, can I cry profanity filter is overmodelled? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by JoeMud:
but I like to be able to scream whine and cry all I want and use all the profanity I can think of....
You still can! Raise the rafters with it!
At your house.
You just can't TYPE it in now. Isn't the loud vocal more effective than typing it anyway?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Wassamatta? Your wife/mom won't let you exercise your rights?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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ooohhh. man.. right in the NUTS! LOL!
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Originally posted by Swager:
Hey HT! Put your butt out! Here ya go!
Whoa! Keep your pants on. We don't know each other that well......yet!!
Smmmmmmoooooocccccchhhhhhh!!!
Thanks for the filter!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hey Swager, move on, it's my turn !!
Smmmmmmoooooooccccccckkkkkkkk aaaaa !!!!!
Filter: wise choise.
But keep the possibility to kick racial people, it's so funny when the lightning fall from sky and the blue voice say : "YOU DESERVED IT, SON"
WTG !! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Bota, take this !! (http://users.bart.nl/~jppetiet/ah/fingersmiley.gif)
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It's time for you to learn foreign langages (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
ie :
US FR
Sucker con,connard (I've allways a strange feeling reading "con inbound" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )
Ass cul
and so on ...
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Hmmm....if someone comes in my office and tells me to F#$% OFF! do I put ear plugs in and ignore him? No, I tell him to get the hell out. The server is HTC's place of business, we are their customers. What's so hard to understand? If not wanting to hear the garbage spewed by short tempered players makes me an bellybutton kisser, than "guilty as charged"
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LJK_Raubvogel
Luftjägerkorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 09-26-2000).]
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--- HiTech: ---
I tailor my product to suit my desired market.
--- end ---
Is the filter English only? Since you said you tailor the product for the desired market - is that implying non-English speaking persons are not desired as your customers and don't deserve the same level of service?
// 00/09/26 fats
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Got a point there Fats.
That's it! HT - pull Supe off the carrier, we need to get him diggin' into English-Spanish dictionaries lookin' for foreign obscenity translations!
Yankee - yer gonna cover Japanese.
Ronni - yer on Czech.
Nate - the F6F-5 is gonna have to wait.
Pyro... well... let's see... Perhaps your time would be best served posting to the News section a short essay on.... *perspective*.
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In case you didn't notice Botabing, Ht did remove the filter from the squad channel which you state is your biggest problem with it.
Thx HT for taking a stand and trying to improve the atmosphere of the game...it needed it. I would still like to see a permanent squelch list though.
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Removed the filter from the squad channel???
Why would ya want to type swear words at your squadies???
I mean, there your squadies.......
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Thog:
I guess the thing that I've found really appalling is the sheer number of people who are delighted by all this. I think at best censorship is to be tolerated. Revelling in banning behavior you don't personally agree with shows a remarkable lack of foresight.
Hi Thog.... <S>
I promised myself I'd stay out of HT's thread as in his own distinct style (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) , he directly addressed the issue from both a personal and corporate perspective. Unfortunately, after reading your eloquent and reasoned response, I got to the end and was appalled that you were appalled at this community enthusiastically endorsing HTC's policy and enforcement practices of restricting use of public profanity with their product.
I can't speak for the community, but personally I don't view HTC's actions to be anything except good leadership representation supporting the current standard of behavior condoned by the vast majority of the AH membership. Note the use of the operative word "behavior". This isn't about censorship of being able to have access to or view Playboy and Hustler, but rather about what HTC and the existing AH community considers acceptable behavior in their public venues. If you wish to read Playboy or shout obscenities at the top of your lungs in the privacy of your own domain, go right ahead.
Your argument seems to infer that the issue is analogous to some "top down" state controlled attempt to "reform" the masses to their way of thinking. It couldn't be further from the truth and the whole approach of your argument style smacks of left wing politically correct academia run amuck. You are obviously an articulate and well educated individual with an extreme passion to protect individual rights, however, if one takes your rationale to its ultimate end, then we should be protecting pedophiles and permitting them to trade child pornography openly on the Internet.
Pedophilia is a behavior that is today unacceptable to the vast majority of our society. We have actually instituted laws that protect us from it, just as there were laws (perhaps still are in some regions) on the books about using vulgarity in public. I would bet that you, as I, neither support, condone or want to be part of any community that would permit this kind of deviant behavior. In fact, we enthusiastically support legislative banning and policing of this perverse sexual activity. I doubt you'd say that "Revelling in banning behavior you don't personally agree with shows a remarkable lack of foresight." under those circumstances. Why not? The answer is obvious, unlike the expressions of profanity in public environments, this particular behavior does indeed exceed your own personal tolerance level and standards of morality, yes?
I guess my point is, where does one's own personal boundary of freedom of action and individual expression end? You find Playboy to be more preferable in "tone and taste" than Hustler, but I would venture to guess that many women and perhaps most of an older generation find both, to borrow your phrase about Hustler, "demeaning".
Quite simply, HTC's and this community's tolerance ended at public displays of vulgarity within their product as being inappropriate behavior. Hence, HT's action to represent the cultural standards of this closed private group of paying players. There's nothing more or nothing less to this argument, so trying to defend its centralized implementation as being akin to some encroachment on one's personal rights to individually choose freedoms is inappropriate and deflects from the real issue.
Players like "joemud" elected to leave, although I have yet to see any others openly decide that the issue breaches their own personal freedoms to the point they felt they could no longer be members of this community. Make no mistake, standards change over time as each generation of society accepts and redefines what is appropriate in public behavior. The day that HTC liberalizes vulgarity as being acceptable in their public arenas, then I'm sure "joemud" and I will be shaking hands in the electronic doorway as he re-enlists and I depart. That's how one exercises individual and personal rights of choice.
Respectfully,
Badger
Looking for a different kind of environment to discuss your favorite on-line flight simulator?
http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline (http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline)
[This message has been edited by Badger (edited 09-26-2000).]
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HT
Thank you for the filter, AH will gain more than they will lose from it. Someone needs to control those who can't control themselves.
cu
Eagler
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BotaBoom:"Well now that everyone is done smooching hitech's ass, I'll go ahead and give an honest response..snip"
Bota, FYI, no one gains by 'kissing his ass', we simply are HTC fans since they work hard to produce some entertainment as well as an escape for all of us in the real world. Call it ass-kissing if you'd like, I call it respect for someone that makes a product that keeps me happy...give and take.
WTG , HT, however I too would like to see the racial slurs added. Especially "nigga" , "cupcake" and "Jap" since those are known to offend people currently flying in this sim. Thank you.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 09-26-2000).]
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Hmmm,...well, I think HT is doing nothing more than taking control of a situation the community imposed on him.
Personally, I enjoy it when someone tells me I have done a good job. I also expect the be crucified when I do a lousy job.
I feel for people that, from their own perspective, cannot enjoy this.
Labeling people as suck-ups if they complement me on a job well done really would reduce the amount joy I get from working so hard.
We can bash the "what", "why" or "how" till we are blue in the face. From what I can tell, the results have been rather surprising. I find all the radio channels to be more pleasant and funny now. Maybe it is the times I log on,...I really don't know. But I am very happy with the results.
Right or wrong, it was a gutsy move on the part of HTC and whether you like it or not, respect dictates the following response:
WTG!
------------------
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
President, AppLink Corp.
http://www.applink.net
skuzzy@applink.net
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Good point Fats. HTC should filter any non-english words.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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As Always Badger! Nice write-up!!!
<S>
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Funked,
Even though a joke - IMO there still should be a client-side-filter, at the minimum, for the benefit of non-english speaking players.
I am quite confident that HTC will not invest time to gather a bad word dictionary for all the nationalities of their player base on their server.
// 00/09/26 fats
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Badger, on a time crunch so I can't do your answer justice, but here's a shot;
1) Never meant to imply that HT was reveling in censorship. He seems to be pretty clinical about it, whether I agree with him or not.
2) The AH community includes me, even if I'm an unenthusiastic participant in the normal board-bashing. It also includes others who disagree with this, whether I personally like or agree with them or not. Thus the problem with claiming community as a cause; the whole community is not on your side.
Look, the point on pedophilia is taken, but as I said, the difference between theory and practice is going to get sticky. This is what your left-wing acadamians don't get (you'd laugh at this in reference to me if you met me). It's NOT an easy decision. I don't 'enthusiastically' support anti-kiddy porn legislation, I warily support it. Where I worry is who is going to decide how far that law goes (does it include any woman under 21? Does it get expanded into other pornography, as the gun laws tend to get expanded into general gun ownership?). So I have no enthusiasim for it, but yes I do support it.
What bothers me is how happy so many people are to see their social preferences shoved down my throat. I really can't see any other word for it. And if that's something you're ok with, then we have radically different views on both what's right and on what history teaches us.
As I said, it's HTC's game. And they have instituted a top down approach on this which I disagree with. But I've about burned the amount of time I've allocated to addressing the issue as a whole, since AH simply isn't -that- signifigant to my life. Won't stop playing, but I've said my piece.
HT: Good point. Difference in perspective though (the problem with those kinds of comparisions, which I got started with <g> ). Essentially this says that people who swear on-line are not your desired market, period. Unless it's on squad channel. But it's not thier option to decide if they want to hear it anywhere else. So if they swear on squad channel, but are ok with having you decide what they can or cannot hear in the rest of the game, they are your desired market? Ok, now I don't get it.
In short, it looks like a confused and cobbled policy, when you have an elegant and equally effective solution at hand.
Thog
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Originally posted by Thog:
Badger, on a time crunch so I can't do your answer justice, but here's a shot;
Thanks for the feedback.... <S>
Some excellent food for thought and discussion.......
This is what your left-wing acadamians don't get (you'd laugh at this in reference to me if you met me).
It would be great to meet sometime. I sent you data via email. I work out of Toronto and am in Phoenix at least one week a month. If you ever get up our way, call if you get a chance.
Regards,
Badger
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<S> Thog. Ditto.
If anybody thinks that server side filtering is anywhere near to solving the problem of Arena atmosphere, take a look at the thread started by fradim. And what Westy pointed out. It is a matter of respect. In an international, multicultural, multirracial virtual community. No way anything can impose mutual respect. It is impossible not to offend anyone. Even with our shiny server filter there will be offended people. Both the cursing ones and the plainly offended ones (see fradim). So what's the point of all of this noise? Who are the beneficiaries of this? Is this filter gonna solve the problem? No? Should we implement yet another filter? To what extent? Who decides? On what terms?
Again and again, self control. First and most, not to offend anyone. Failing to have this, control over what gets into your puter. And each one decides.
Cheers,
Pepino.
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Thog said:
What bothers me is how happy so many people are to see their social preferences shoved down my throat.
Ok Thog, but it's a two way street, isn't it? Someone who swears a blue streak on the open channel is shoving their moral preferences down my throat, aren't they?
Face it, what's really pissing those perveyors of profanity off about this whole thing, is that they won't be getting the attention they crave. They're not happy with being able to swear out loud by themselves. They want everyone to see and KNOW how upset they are.
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Thanks HTC.
Ass-kisser Fury
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banana, yes, and if there was no way for HTC to implement a client side filter, and thus no way for you to protect yourself from some mindless fool, then you would have a point.
But there is a way for each to decide for themselves, rather than have the decision made for us. So in this case, your morality is shoved down my throat and I have no control aside from opting out altogether, when the option exists for both of us to go about our merry way without imposing our likes and dislikes on eachother.
As to perveyors of profanity getting ticked; well, I'm annoyed, but I rarely swear on-line. I don't remember the last time I sweared AT someone unless it was a known friend and a joke. So I think you're oversimplifying on that one.
Thog
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Kudos to HT!
What Badger said, and more.
BD
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HTC <S>
Thank you
Kari "Ping" Sommer
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Thanks for the feedback, HT. As I understand it, the filter isn't about
profanity, rather it's about atmosphere in the arena.
HT, you don't have to use profanity to inflame a situation -- it just
takes a few, carefully chosen words and yep, you'll have a brawl on your
hands.
Pilot1:
Pilot2: Pilot1, why the salute? I was just cleansing the gene pool.
Pilot1: NM
Pilot2: You have to be the biggest dweed in the arena. Take your salutes and stick them where the sun doesn't shine.
and etc.
If your stated effort was to avoid profanity, yeah, that might work. But
it isn't: You want to shape verbal exchanges in the arena.
It will be interesting to watch though.
AKcurly
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Originally posted by Fury:
Thanks HTC.
Ass-kisser Fury
Ahhhh! So that is what AK stands for! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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HT..
You never had to explain you actions in this matter. Over the last few months to many idiots started thinking this was a Quake server.
I am glad you handled this profanity situation the way you did. I hear enough of it in real life,dont need my text buffer full o crap here.
tkx Bro...
Dog out....
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the filter is perfect (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
keeps our sim going in apositive dirrection.
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Thog
What planet are you from?
Sorry guys, no patience for such liberal diarrhea err .. point of view.
That's what has the world in such a mess now. From OJ to Slick Willie, that left way of thinking has me truly baffled.. Here we are talking about a game which you pay to play, if you don't like the rules, then don't play.
For every one person who prefer to be exposed to profanity, I bet there are at least 10 who don't.
Concerning (top down)control, only the truly paranoid worry so much over so little.
get a life
Eagler
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Swearing. In a face to face situation many people would be hesitant to swear at someone else unless it was to a friend, and they had a habit of such behavior. At most public places I find very few people swearing up a storm, so loud that everyone can hear them. Even in a bar, or tavern. When people do swear at each other it's usually when within a private group, or when tempers are flying. If it's in a private setting, who cares? When angry people are ready to go at it, then it's time to put a stop to it, or take it outside.
The internet is a peculiar place, because we exist behind the ultimate personal 'firewall', free to speak in any manner we feel with no concern for any physical, or financial injury upon ourselves. This environment can tempt someone under the alibi of free speech to be as abusive, peurile, or cruel as they want. For me, this is not balanced, but disruptive, and unsocial. That people would hold up this sort of behavior like a banner is saddening.
What Hitech has done is nothing more than attempt to make these virtual arenas more 'lifelike' by making people accountable for their actions. And in a real, physical environment, excessive, and cruel use of profanity will always have its unfortunate consequences with the offender being led off the premises, or those who are offended leaving, at the very least. Since excessive, loud profanity is not acceptable in real public settings, why should it suddenly be okay here?
I like what Hitech did. It means I don't have to squelch channel 1 all the time now. That swearing in squad channels is open is good, because these are restricted, truly private channels, unlike the private channel.
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 09-27-2000).]
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Here we are talking about a game which you pay to play, if you don't like the rules, then don't play.
Brilliant logic. How can you argue with that? Er.. wait.. many people did when there was no cursing filter. But they wanted the rules changed. Guess that was OK then. Its amazing how many people started saying "Its HTC's company.. they make the rules" AFTER HTC installed the filter.
AKDejaVu
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here we are talking about a game which you pay to play, if you don't like the rules, then don't play.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AKDejaVu responded:
"Brilliant logic. How can you argue with that? Er.. wait.. many people did when there was no cursing filter. But they wanted the rules changed. Guess that was OK then. "
I'll rephrase so you get it ..
It's HT prerogative to change the product (their product)they make available to us as consumers whenever and however they choose. It has nothing to do with "free speech" or your particular desires. They take the risk of losing subscribers with each change/update. The loss with this one is minimal I'm sure.
Majority rules and I'm afraid you are in the minority on this one............
Eagler
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Eagler said:
Sorry guys, no patience for such liberal diarrhea err .. point of view.
That's what has the world in such a mess now. From OJ to Slick Willie, that left way of thinking has me truly baffled..
Eagler, what a bunch of bull. Who knows what political affiliation Thog has, and what difference does it make? Stop trying to turn this into a political debate. I would bet that there are Liberals and Conservatives on both sides of the issue here.
I don't happen to agree with Thog, but at least he hasn't pulled out the "political ego" card on us, like you have.
Sorry to go off on you, but I really hate it when people assume some stereotypical political affiliation just because of the opinions they have on a certain issue.
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Again and again. The issue is not if profanity should be allowed or not. I think mostly everyone agree (implicit or explicitly) that this should not be allowed (and, btw, profanity, as fradim put, is not nearly the worst thing to hear online, even for children, IMO). The point is on the side deciding what is allowed to hear. Even now, you are free to talk whatever (and take the risk of muting) but you are not free to hear what you want.
The point is why having a feasible alternative to protect arena from hard words and manners without the "I ban you" approach, the bias is put on "I don't want to hear that or that or that....so you can't talk". After all, as Pyro stated, if the offense is big enough, HT can take the real radical and only solution...denial of service.
On the other hand, I think I know when the battle is lost, and this is the case. HT has made his choice, and we have to live with it. No more posts on this thread or any other related for me. Kinda like HO HO! when you got shot down. I've been shot down on this particular matter. Fine. I can live with it. I'm still happy a $29.95/month customer.
Btw, was very funny the "profanity filter override mode" yesterday in the MA. Probably you guys concerned with children exposed to reality will have to give lots of explanations. Sometimes irony and sarcasm maybe harder to explain than plain truth (something, at the end, you will have to explain anyway, assuming that kids' knowledge of real life nowadays don't put the ignorant side on parents field).
Cheers,
Pepino.
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(pop! pzvg appears)
You know, I'm amused now.
Why? The funny people.
The funny people who think they have something to prove by fighting for a bad cause, that being the "right" to act like a diseased baboon on the internet, and yet, when THEY force someone like HTC to take steps to curb what the majority feels is not social behavior, They start screaming about "rights" Clue for you, YOU brought this on, YOU have no rights, John Adams would horsewhip YOU through Boston Commons for the language YOU use, YOU could not manage to get out of a roomful of my friends with your face intact using that language.
But, this is "CENSORSHIP", yep indeed in theory, that is exactly what it is.
And it's because of YOU.
Hi-Tech, I hate it for you man, but you do as you do, you have my support, and if this community cleans up it's act, my money.
Sad fact, my kids share my world and I can explain facets of war and history, but not grown men acting like this.
(Pop! pzvg disappears)
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Originally posted by pzvg:
(pop! pzvg appears)
(Pop! pzvg disappears)
No No! Come back, I have a shiny new F4U waiting in the hangar for ya! And a bottle, and, and...ummm...a Geisha girl! and, and....ummmm...free pretzels!
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"Sorry to go off on you, but I really hate it when people assume some stereotypical political affiliation just because of the opinions they have on a certain issue."
Sorry banana, just playing the odds (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Eagler
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I have no problem with HTC trying to set an atmosphere in the main arena.
I happen to believe that a server-side filter as currently implemented is a bad idea and very poorly done attempt to reach the goal.
I was most pissed off about the squad channel being changed. I dont cuss on the public channel, I just think its important to preserve the right to do so. That said, since I hear that HTC is going to free up the squad channel, I will consider sticking around.
Bottom line with pure censorship is that it never ends.
All this does is encourage the people who want words banned that are NOT profane, and then people who want entire topics banned. That's not just a prediction, that's already being asked for as we sit here.
You can ban "diddly" or "shit" on the main channel, and while I disagree with the solution used, I will not leave as long as we are free to be ourselves in our squadrons.
But the day you cave in to the hyper-sensitive guilt-ridden overly-vocal minority of people who want non-profanities banned, words such as "Ruskie" or "Gerry" or "Jap" or "Kraut" or stuff like that, then Im definitely leaving. Its a World War II sim for cryin out loud. Small-mindedness and weak constitution in one area is an inidication of problems in other areas.
Where I'm from, its laughable to think that someone would be banned for saying the word "Japs" in a World War II flight simulator arena. Thats just about as stupid as things get.
And oh yeah..anyone who tries to compare Jap as being on the same level as cupcake is either trolling to get some response, or simply incapable of rational critical thinking (a moron).
Jap is short for Japanese.
cupcake is and always has been a racial slur.
Its not even comparable, and its an insult to black people to try and hitch a ride on the real atrocities that they have suffered in this world. People who try to build themselves up as victims and then tack their popsicleness onto someone else's victimization are disgusting and weak.
[This message has been edited by BotaBing (edited 09-27-2000).]
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Botabing said:
"You can ban "diddly" or "shit" on the main channel, and while I disagree with the solution used, I will not leave as long as we are free to be ourselves in our squadrons."
AH - with this quote in mind, may I suggest you install the filter on the squad channel also. Can't speak for anyone else but if my squaddies used such language one of us would go. I find it extremely offense and inexcusable to use such language when you don't know who is exposed to it. Anyone in the room could be looking at the screen when these fine examples of verbal expressions are printed.
Bing - seems you still get to cuss to your hearts content here in the bbs. Is it your lack of education that requires you to choose such language? Or is it a general lack of refinement, possibly a "bad childhood" which you are still probably in the middle of. As there isn't a filter installed here, please refrain and choose your vocabulary with better taste. How about f***, I think everyone would know what you mean.
Thanks
Eagler
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I flew in the main arena last night for the first time since the "filter" was put in place and you know what? I enjoyed it. The banter was still there, but none of the irritation that I noticed before. I can live with this.
buhdman, out
------------------
Walt (buhdman) Barrow
(formerly lt-buhd-lite)
The Buccaneers - "Return with Honor"
home.earthlink.net/~wjbarrow
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In other sims i've been involved with, generally the community manages to police itself in these matters. I've found flight sims typically contain a more mature, civilized player, compared to errr them quake games +)
If profanity and harrassment are against the terms of service agreement, i see absolutely no reason for a MACHINE to put words in the player's mouth...
I'm against the LAW telling me i have to wear a seatbelt or a motorcycle helmet, yet I don't drive/ride without wearing them.
The kind of player that enjoys AH and wishes to stick around will abide by the terms of service! His peers will police fairly and with respect.
Perhaps once the free trial period ends (if it ever does) the profanity issue would dissappear. Those users who are constantly offending other players would be weeded out and TOS'ed anyways.
In aw3, one guy speaks a profanity, and 5 or more other players cuff him up side the head +) and the issue is over. Generally if its a player who should know better, an apology is soon to follow. If its a newbie, well he gets the message right quickly. Anyone who insists on continuing the objectionable behaviour risks a temporary or permanent ban...
A client side filter would allow players to use profanity all they wished without fear of repercussions.(not good)
A sever side filter is not neccessary in anyway shape or form.
HT look at your target market, those people should be responsible enough to manage themselves don't you think?
SKurj
[This message has been edited by SKurj (edited 09-28-2000).]