Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Zigrat on August 14, 2000, 12:49:00 PM
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They suck, they travel at 320 knots at 27k and you cannot catch them and make good attack runs on them. Even a buff at 23k i dont mind so much, you can still get above it and make decent runs on it.
I do not have a prob with buff guns when they are low, below 20k, they need them for defense. When a buff is at 27k, he is immune to everything. You make 1 pass on him, which is not lethal unless u are in a c hog, and you loose 3k alt and you will never catch him again.
I know i should not attcak them, but i just hate those damn buff alt dweebs and i wanna kil them. Like a moth to a light.
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REpeat with me :
Buffs are well ballanced...buffs are well ballanced... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
it is crap isnt it? well go to gameplay forum and take a look at the "guns in bombers are ok" thread.
Buffs are a joke. I like them when they pull a 4G close turn with all their lasers firing accurate fire to cons at 1K.
As a joke they are really fun. So laugh at them or die, Zigrat. Its as simple as that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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This subject could be debated forever(and probably will be) without ever coming to a an agreeable solution for both parties.
Warts and all, I think the way buffs are modeled right now is about right.
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Zigrat and RAM,
I feel your pain, but I think a Buff should be able to fly as high as he wants. But! If he's over 25K, he shouldn't be able to hit snot <BFG>. There should be some type of accuracy penalty the higher the buff goes, and I would think an additional accuracy hit depending on the type of buff/bomb site your flying/using.
I can see in the future a group of Ju88s at 30K being untouchable <speed> by fighter intercepts and the 88s still being able to knock out an 5X5 meter AAA position. We need bomb dispersion!
OTR,
Ash
I./JG2
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The only thing you can accurately hit above 25k is Hangars and HQ, everything else is very tough, unless you use 1000 lbers for smaller targets.
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Well there are some possible solutions against strato buffs.
1) Even with norden, make all ground object dissapear when buff is above 23k. Its a ww2 norden sight, not the damn Hubble!
2) Allow players to purposely deploy SMOKE SCREENS. Get a tank and blow smoke all over the field (or introduce a smoke deploying halftrack or something)... say, green colored smoke (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). That way nothing, not even vulchers would be able to see anything inside the smoke screen. Framerate? oh hell!
3) clouds? Add a cloud layer at 23k. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
and lastly, make those buffs behave like buffs. Those things turn on a dime and are quite good at defending themselves against hordes of fighters. Lately ive seen buffs that spot incoming fighters from a good angle and they use their amazing rudder turns to have the tail gun face the fighter. Tactics? Yep, there goes the neighborhood.
PD: The B-26 is an awesome anti-buff interceptor. Get a gunner and start raking them other buffs from d1.2. Its like flying a heavy p-38!
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and Why we need 262 !! finaly chill down strato buffs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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In real life could a buff actually operate at those high alts? If so, fine, but if not, then they should be fixed.
I've never taken a buff up very high, but they should be as restricted in movement as any other aircraft when it reaches it's "service ceiling".
[This message has been edited by Exile (edited 08-14-2000).]
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The question I have always asked is why planes designed to either Escort bombers or intercept bombers at the altitudes that bombers operate at cannot manuver at that altitude as well as the bombers themselve.
I have been flying the P-47 mostly lately. From what I read the P-47 should rule above 25K. It had a two stage super chager and the 2nd stage kicked in at 25k.
As Zig has stated I may get one pass at a buff. But when I start to turn to make a 2nd pass (and I am not taking sharp turns) the Rattle of the stall starts, and the plane starts to loose altitude.
So I can't complete the turn, and I loose altitude, and the bomber keeps going flat and level and moves away. I now have to turn at a lower altitude and start to climb. YOu loose speed on that climb, and the bomber pulls further away.
If you get altitude on a bomber he only has to make a gentle turn to blow your solution and as you pass at 400 IAS there is the Ping Ping Ping.
I just want parity at altitude. Historically bombers did operate at 27 to 30K. And Fighters did attack and make multiple passes at 27 to 30K on them same bombers. If a bomber can turn at 30K then a fighter should be able to turn at 30K.
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(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/dtahcard.gif)
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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First off, a B-17G flying at 27,000' is operating at a historic and documented bombing altitude. If the argument is that the Fighters do not perform according to spec up there, fine.Thats another thread. But does anyone honestly think that the 10 man crews that rode those things flew for 8-9hours at a time with oxygen on full time and in -50deg F temperatures because it was fun? It was to stay alive, above and out of range but all but the most determined enemy.
Yeah,It can be a drag to have to really work for a kill (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) On the flip side, is shooting down the same guy in his Fighter 2 times before he finally kills ya while on the rtb in said B-17.
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Originally posted by JimBear:
First off, a B-17G flying at 27,000' is operating at a historic and documented bombing altitude. If the argument is that the Fighters do not perform according to spec up there, fine.Thats another thread. But does anyone honestly think that the 10 man crews that rode those things flew for 8-9hours at a time with oxygen on full time and in -50deg F temperatures because it was fun? It was to stay alive, above and out of range but all but the most determined enemy.
Yeah,It can be a drag to have to really work for a kill (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) On the flip side, is shooting down the same guy in his Fighter 2 times before he finally kills ya while on the rtb in said B-17.
IF you call me for realism and WWII references on why did bombers fly at 27.000 feet then I answer you that they had to fly in boxes of hundreds of bombers to hit big factories on a BIG extension.
And dont forget they released all the cargo on one pass, sometimes to hit nothing...
I guess that the current B2 spirit would like a "sight" like the one we have right now in AH.
SO much yell for realism on other things and we have turbobuffs here. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
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Hmmm...
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Rendar
[This message has been edited by Rendar (edited 08-14-2000).]
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at 27 k if they gave it full throttle BOOOOOOM and nobody ever dived a 17 to 400 kn and wrote about itit easy to sustain in a shallow dive here , the bufs should be tough but slow not tough and blasingly fast . and gorect me if im wrong but a b 26 was a med buff ? highest speed at luike 14 or 16 k not 20 freakin 9 k
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Hi
B17s should fly as high as they want but the bombing accuracy must drop accordingly. They shouldnt be able to hit very much from extremly high alts above 25K. As for doing 320kts thats simply beyond their historic performance capabilities as the top speed of a empty B17G was just about 300mph and the real ones flew at a combat speed of 170 mph.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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Not really want to show off here, but in SFRT we usually limit our max alt in buff at 25K for gameplay purposes even on HQ runs.
It definitly increases our chances of being shot down before reaching the target. Now we are still mad when a FW comes kamikazee on us and flies straight to a buff till he rams it and at least got 1/1 death ratio. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) But that is an another topic).
(This post doesn't mean that you will never find an SFRT strato buff, but as a rule of thumb we try to limit our alt in the interest of the arena).
I'm sure some other Squads too have similar internal limitation "rules".
(http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/sig-frenchy.jpg)
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Gents,
Here is a quick Buff intercept story to ponder.
Flying my F4U-1C(dweebish but highly effective) when I see on the Map that the Rooks are launching a heavy raid on our Knight HQ from A1 and are already at 20k, so I quickly land and up with 100% fuel and begin to climb. I can see on the map that it is quite a large force of Buffs and quite a large force of Knight defenders so my blood is pumped for this battle royal at 25K. Anyway I can see the cloud of B17 getting closer and I can see defenders making gunnery passes and falling away in flames while the occassional 17 goes down with it.
(This would be awesome in an Historic arena if it were Ju-88 or He-111 instead of B-17's)
So finally I reach 27K and pick a target, as I approach he pulls into a hard virtical and I overshoot and also go virtical. Climbing up I look down and the 17 is now diving and extending so I dive after him. Another Knight comes underneath so he pulls up again and forces another over shoot. He is already D3+ from me and now I am closing so he dives.
HE beggins to pull away somehow so I continue the chase. Finally at 15K I catch him and he tries his move again but I catch him with a long burst and off comes a wing.
I know B17's could not
A. Extend at 350MPH+ in a dive.
B. Make a High G pull up out of that maneuever . Hell, it was a non-rolling virtical sissors. WTF??
When I finally got the kill it was Maximus.
I remember when he start a couple of months ago he could not take off. Now he flying a B17 like a stunt plane. I don't mind the super chargered 50cals but please the outrageous maneuvers are just too much.
Does anyone have the G limit Docs on a B17? Would luv to see them.
Later
F4UDOA
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Originally posted by Downtown:
I just want parity at altitude. Historically bombers did operate at 27 to 30K. And Fighters did attack and make multiple passes at 27 to 30K on them same bombers. If a bomber can turn at 30K then a fighter should be able to turn at 30K.
They did operate at times, but NOT on regular basis, thats the difference.
In World War 2, buffs did bomb from 10k to 25k, even more rare above 25k.
Theres few things that affects altitude.. time, gas, clouds, temperature...
anyway, I doubt that flying B17 over 25k, not to talk about bombing, was too easy to do.
Originally posted by Ash:
I can see in the future a group of Ju88s at 30K being untouchable
I wonder if those Ju-S's climbs that high in AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Fishu,
I know about altitude..
If the air is so thin at 30K that a P-47 can't turn, then the air is so thin at 30K that a B-17 can't turn either.
I was in a P-47, and I was up at about 27K chasing a buff. The Buff Reversed to bomb my airfield. I dove at the buff, who did a turn. When I tried to turn to follow the buff I stalled and fell 7K feet to 20K. The Buff took out the fighter hangars and departed the area, with me climbing up to catch him.
I didn't.
If fighters cant turn (and even P-38s with nearly the wingspan of a B-17 can't turn at 30K than B-17s shouldn't be able to turn at 30K without stalling.
I don't mind Bombers in AH using the rudders to turn for defense (These are horizontal turns, which should affect speed and small amounts of atlitude, some yaw.)
I would like the hardness of bomber in AH increased so they with stood more than 1 attack (even from the vaunted 4 Cannon Hog!)
But the Sharp turns that B-17s can make to defeat attackers who if they try to turn with a B-17 stall and fall.
Is there one plane in AH (Pony Exlcuded (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)) that shouldn't turn with a bomber at any altitude?
Please provide a reference that says a B-17 at 30K could out turn a P-47 at that alt?
How did P-38s and P-51 and sometimes P-47s stay with the bombers to provide escort? How did Me-109s and FW-190s make multiple attacking passes on large formations of bombers?
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(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/dtahcard.gif)
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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F4UDOA,
I know your pain, especially with this Maximus guy. He and I have had several encounters over the last week, everytime he's in a B17 at 30K+ and I'm trying to run him down in a 109G10. It's almost impossible to set up an attack at that altitude since most/all of the fighters handle like crap that high. You get one chance, then have to cross half the map to climb back into an sort of position. I have films galore of Maximus flying along at 30K+ and lots of deaths to him in the process. Channel 1 had Maximus and I chewing it up, but whatever. If that's how he wants to play that's up to him I guess.
It just really annoys me to see people doing this all the time now since they can often run up 4 and 5 fighter kill bomber sorties by doing it. Could a B17 get that high? I don't know, could they bomb and hit anything smaller than a City from that height, I have my doubts. In AH it is possible, and thus people do it, can you blame them, well, that's a tough call. I still think that a solo bomber without some sort of cover should be a pretty inviting target.
I guess it's something we have to live with for now and I hope that someone at HTC hears out plight.
Soda
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F4UDOA, I agree. Those dogfighting B17 are a pain. It's always irritating to survive a dogfight against fighters and die because a buff came down to get you. A lot of buff go on fighter mode as soon as they droped their bombs, that's not very nice. Maybe their ailerons and elevator effectiveness could be reduced to force them to more 'behave like a buff'.
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at 30k alt, a b17 can do a 180 degree turn and not loose alt.
try this in a fighter, and you will be forced to loose at least 2k alt to complete the manouver.
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Guys,guys guys...
just remember that the buffs are "ballanced". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
so dont squeak they are just ok!...so do their guns! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<G,D,R> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Now I've checked the G pulls in those sharp turns, and they are about half of what's being given. Most are 2G's, and up to 3G's in a max elevator turn (the plane starts creaking) I believe the turn you see in the B-17 are a cooridnated rudder/aileron turn with slight elevator trim to maintain altitude. The bank is normally between 30 and 45 degrees, which is pushing it for a 17, but within it's flight envelope.
At 320 MPH, normally true, the B-17's wings pop off. I've tried it up to 38k using the wind command (above which the preformence goes back to sea-level like stats)At 38k or so the B-17's wings pop off, due to the stall speed execeding the speed the wings can withstand at that altitude.
A B-17 has roughly 4 times the wing area of a P-38. Bombers are designed to be stable right? Combine a stable airframe, and a very large wing area it's no wonder the buffs fly so well at altitude.
B-26 is about the same. I've fought some plane with it and I've ripped the wings several times by pulling over 3.5G's (and I had LOTS of practice being gentle with the A-26 in AW3 with the paper wings (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) doubt other do much better then me ). It compresses easy once over 300MPH. The Uber turns are really pulling almost no G's because of no elevator deflection by the auto pilot; it's slightly over 2G, about right for the stress on the air frame at a 45 degree bank.
The buffs are right on. But, I think the fighters need to be looked into. But you also have to take into consideration the USAAF placed ceilings on missions, not the pilots. The escort was above them, the enemy was above them. The enemy dives to attack them, the escort dives to attack the enemy. Now where does manuverability come into play?
Oh well. I are dweeb.
- Jig
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Jimbear - First off, a B-17G flying at 27,000' is operating at a historic and documented bombing altitude.
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What have you been smoking ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I'm almost finished reading "The Mighty Eight" by Gerald Astor in it ...
1) The normal bombing alt was 23k (just above the optimum for 88mm AA)
2) At that height and above, too many things froze - including defensive guns.
3) 4G turns in a Buff ? And the wings didn't come off ? Geez where have I heard that before ??? That other sim designed by HT ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW, on that last comment, if you can't feel your chain being yanked, go see a doctor 'cause your numb from the ears down ...
Cheers,
Rifle
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Right Jigster, that large wing area was for stable flight.
NOT FOR TURNING AND DOGFIGHTING!
Fighters should be able to turn at 30K and fight. Perhaps there should be an altitude penalty and resultant loss. But the AIR up there is thin for bombers the same as it is in fighters.
I don't know if Buff High Alt performance is right on, and I really don't have a problem with it.
But how could Escorts defend bombers if it cost them 2 to 7K of alt every time they had to turn to do so?
Again, I said, rudder turns okay in a B-17, but when you start partial Chandelles or yo-yo's a B-17s performance should suffer just like every other plane.
Either the Buffs are set to perform better at Alt, or the fighters performance is way off.
A while back I did my whine about the Buffs. (I was tired of getting bounced by bombers.)
I said that the bombers were adjusted for game play in the following.
1. Manuverability.
2. Range of leathalty for the .50 (lag issue)
3. High Altitude Performance superior to any fighter.
I said that I was in favor of the following game play adjustments.
1. Increase Ruggedness/Hardness of bombers when attacked by Fighter Aircraft.
2. Decrease the range of all but the tail gun of the bombers for lag, after a bomber drops it's payload.
3. Match performance of fighter aircraft to bombers at altitude.
What I was hoping for was an increase in realism and play ability for bombers.
The Gun Range decrease would discourage "Fighter Bombers." of FB-17 and FB-26 calibre.
The Increase hardness against weaponary would require fighters to make several attack passes against a B-17.
The ability of fighters to manuver with the B-17s (B-26s) at 30K feet would allow the Fighter Pilots to make those several historical passes.
At the very least HT/Pyro should make the effectiveness of the forward .50s of the B-26 equal in effective range to every other .50 cal armed aircraft.
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(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/dtahcard.gif)
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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The B17's flew in layered formations, from 18k to 27k, depending on the weather. They were not designated to a set alt of 23k. Read the book about the Bloody 100th, they usually found themselves in low formation, and payed heavy for the price.
And when you folks speak of speed , talk in IAS, sounds like to me your talking in TAS when you speak of 300mph.
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RAF experimented with using B17s at +30k and the main thing that restricted them was engine breather problems resulting in eventual engine damage over long distance.
Very rare that I go over 20k these days, a lot more fun lower alt. On those very, very rare occasions that I fly at 25k (don't fly B17 much these days, prefer B26 7 -14k) then you're guaranteed to see enemy fighters 5 - 10k higher. Perhaps it's just my bad luck!
Regards
'Nexx'
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Ya should of been on tonite. Buffs attacked Knight HQ from the safe altitude of 32-37K!! I was wallowing at 33500 and the buffs were above me!
WOW! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
What ever flips you trigger I guess. I would be embarrased to fly that high, but to each his own. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I would really like to see those dogfite B-17 drivers do it in real life, I bet that their wings would come off from the root or tail break off like with the russian concorde (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
"excessive stress on control surfaces"
(not to mention gunners being stunned for few seconds)
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Ah, Swag...
We were all at 30.5 K. NONE higher, until after the drop. I RTB'd at 32K...passed Knight TAC in a B-26, coalt..he revved and got me on final. Nice Kill, TAC. I never even bothered to see if u turned around.
In fact were were LOWER than the last Knight Zigrat Raid I intercepted on Bish HQ.
I climbed to 33k on those guys North of our HQ (still hadn't dropped), took hits, dove away in a Mustang.
My personal suggestion? Let's remove all buffs and ground vehicles and get back to Fighter Combat! I'm semi-serious, too! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
<dives for cover>
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I take offense to that, as do my fellow knights.
Show me where a knight was EVER above 27k, and ill eat my shirt.
You are full of it.
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Toad, I was in B-26 FIGHTER because NO plane could ever climb to the 30k+ alt you dweebs were in. Matter of fact, when your raid was E of the vbase (the one thats East of HQ) I had taken off 23 in a B-26, dropped all bombs and went straight east. I knew that none of our fighters would make it that high (aside from becoming flying targets). I kept climbing towards A1 hoping to catch you people on the way back from the raid. and I did. I was at 29k (the b-26 will crawl like 10ft per minute on autoclimb at that alt) when I passed a b-17 at near co-alt (I think I was a bit lower) and some other buff that was WAY, WAY higher than I was.
My goal from the beggining was to get at least one of you 30k+ dweebs.
Now, lets see it from another point of view. You folks climbed to bomb a field that is at ground level. I climbed to get you guys..and ended up catching you over A1. Thats... lets see... 29k minus the 10k alt of A1... ooh that makes me a 19k Buff dweeb!!!!
I got it on film, my gunner has it on film. When the raid was detected at strato alt, many knights intercepting turned their films on.
Its 3:12 am right now, I just logged off and Knights owned 3/4ths of the map. Before the raid we owned 1/4th. Moral of the story: 30k+ raids just bring forth the outrage of the entire group. That allowed us to coordinate and kick the stuffing outta you. We flattened your city and HQ and took all core fields except 8 and 11.
*SPANK* *SPANK* Bad bishcuits!
BTW, this film, I hope, will help show how easily a buff becomes a fighter. I was amazed how a b-26 turned like a zeke at that alt, dived to 400 mph with no problem, rudder slips to kill speed... and best of all, I had a Turbolaser gunner to ping others from insane ranges. what a rush! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 08-15-2000).]
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I know how frustrated it is to try and intercept a buff that high.
But just think how long that guy took to get that high! Takes more patience than I have, that is for sure. Took me forever to get one up to just 15K the other night, so if someone takes one up that high, he was sure dedicated to whatever mission he was on. Gotta admire that much, to say the least.
Problem is, by the time guys realize that #1, the con is a buff, and #2, how high it is, they are already out of position to do a well planned intercept, unlike in RL WW2, when the LW had hours to get their ships upstairs to intercept the incoming bomber streams.
The way I see it, you have choice of a)fly all your sorties at high alt, in order to catch that stray buff(s), or b)let the guy go, maybe try and catch him later and shoot him down.
The bottom line, as I see it, is that some guys don't like it when they get caught out of position, at a disadvantage, whatever.
Blame yourself if you find yourself lower than an enemy. You chose to level at your alt, he chose to climb higher. Your fault, not his.
I am in total agreement about the buffs over-performances at higher alts, and I think all the fighters do not perform as they should at the higher alts. You get a fighter up to over 400 at 25K, and the stall horn should not start blaring as soon as you raise the nose......makes no sense to me.
Maybe HTC will look into the matter, and see if the modeling is off on the fighters, as I think that is where the problem lies.
PS--Did not see Tac's post til after i sent mine.....for the record, I do not fly bishops........lol. And I rarely fly buffs anyway. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by eddiek (edited 08-15-2000).]
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Two things: First of all, IMO bombers should be only allowed to bomb accurately at semi-realistic altitudes of around 20k feet max. There is nothing more annoying than a bomber at 35k.
Second, the bomber guns and toughness are just perfect. I have film after film of one pass kills on bombers in a p51 and p47. (Probably the hardest planes to kill a bomber in, except for the 202.) Saturday night I managed to destroy or badly damage, an entire group of 4 rook bombers with a p51. (Even have it on film, if I can find it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ) I got kill credits for 2 of them, and assists on the others. Doing this I took no pings, even though I made 3 passes on one of the b17s. I received no damage whatsoever and had to RTB because of low fuel and ammo. Given 2k of alt above a bomber I personally find them an easy kill.
I'll add some films of 1 pass bomber kills just for the viewing pleasure of seeing bombers go down in flames. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Here's the film of the above. (About 430k or so, but all of it is action. Would be better if you had the RW voice chatter. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
bombers.ahf (http://www.engr.orst.edu/~bloom/bombers.ahf)
Here's some other (smaller) films:
You might notice that shot poorly in a couple of these films, but still managed to win. I think the worst damage I take is a broken radiator to an ackstar.
poorpass.ahf (http://www.engr.orst.edu/~bloom/poorpass.ahf)
killb26.ahf (http://www.engr.orst.edu/~bloom/killb26.ahf)
p47bomber.ahf (http://www.engr.orst.edu/~bloom/p47bomber.ahf)
p51vb17.ahf (http://www.engr.orst.edu/~bloom/p51vb17.ahf)
p51vb172.ahf (http://www.engr.orst.edu/~bloom/p51vb172.ahf)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
[This message has been edited by bloom25 (edited 08-15-2000).]
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Bloom what were the altitude of those fights, and personally I think a lone pony should expend all of its ammo to get one B-17. (Unless it's real good shooting, short burst that take out the engines or explode the bombs.)
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(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/dtahcard.gif)
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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Grunherz I think that was 170 IAS, not TAS. Flying 170 TAS at 25,000 feet would have a fully loaded B-17G on the verge of falling out of the air.
Top speeds are given in TAS.
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i met an former b17 navigator (35 sorties)
in seattle 1 week ago. we had a nice conver
sation. i asked him for their combat alt
(because of the AH strato buffs :-)) his
answer was around 25k maximum. escort higher
and ...germans highest :-).
i belive THIS man, not some "may i have heard" things.
HABiCHT out
PS. diddlying strato buffs...
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Keep in mind that station keeping for a big bomber formation was a full-time task, and required good control. You couldn't do tac-turns or other tricks to stay in position during course changes. This means two things:
1. The bombers didn't operate at highest altitude they could attain because they needed a margin of maneuverability.
2. The lead bombers didn't operate at full throttle, because the formation would not have been able to stay together.
In AH we have bombers carrying a tiny fuel load that don't have to worry about formation flying. It is quite logical that they can fly higher and faster than a fully loaded bomber that has to stay in a very tight 3-dimensional formation.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-15-2000).]
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Safety.
(http://www.geocities.com/stsantasatan/31kbuffs.jpg)
Might be hard to see, but the altitude at the pic is 30k.
Safety.
Anyone who spends time climbing with a B17 to 31k can only be classified in my book as two things; one who thinks about safety and...
one who is UTTERLY boring. Man, what patience it must take! And the excitement must rival that of watching grass grow, or paint dry.
C'mon guys, for everyones sake, make scrambles worthwhile. It'll be fun for you, the escorts and us. And all sides will have casualties.
The result of this toejamty dweebery is that what used to be very amusing (scramble missions) now is dull and it's hard to find players who are willing to scramble.
"Big deal, they're 32k+, nothing we can do anyhow".
For your information, when the kniggits had A1, we ran several bombing missios to bish and rook hq. On those I joined, the buffs didn't go above 23k.
This is REASONABLE. If you do not think so, and you have all kinds of excuses, I shall not say anything more; when you argue with a fool, a casual observer cannot tell the difference.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Originally posted by funked:
Keep in mind that station keeping for a big bomber formation was a full-time task, and required good control. You couldn't do tac-turns or other tricks to stay in position during course changes. This means two things:
1. The bombers didn't operate at highest altitude they could attain because they needed a margin of maneuverability.
2. The lead bombers didn't operate at full throttle, because the formation would not have been able to stay together.
In AH we have bombers carrying a tiny fuel load that don't have to worry about formation flying. It is quite logical that they can fly higher and faster than a fully loaded bomber that has to stay in a very tight 3-dimensional formation.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-15-2000).]
Which was what I was getting at, it was the orders that kept the B-17's low, not the pilots. We don't have freezing and other stuff so I come to expect better altitude preformence.
And well, if you stay within the structual limits of an aircraft it should be possible to do anything you want. As I said before...we don't have the modeling yet to produced the effect of pulling the massive weight of a bomber yoke in a manuver. It took two strong guys just to put a B-17 through a cork screw. No wonder we can do steep turns and manuvers.
And the enromous wing area has side effects other then stability...The B-17, when loaded with a typical AH bomb/fuel load has a lower wing loading then some fighters.
It may not be historically correct but it is modeled pretty good within the parameters of the sim.
- Dweeb
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Let the buffs climb as high as their wings will carry (I think this is pretty well modeled, actually, they _should_ be able to fly higher than the fighters). Just don't let them see any targets from that alt. That way if you want to hit a field from 30K, you have to get five or ten bombers together and carpet bomb the little square waaay down there, without knowing what you hit.
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Rickenbacker (Ricken)
-ISAF- the Independent Swedish Air Force
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Zigrat,
I don't aim to offend. Just a simple statement of fact. On one of those raids I was at 29K in a 51 and a flight of B-17's came at me, their course basically HO. I zoomed up and while still ~1.0 below them took pings from a belly gun. Top of my "zoom" was about 30k + 1k yards gun range puts it around 33k. It happened. Sorry if that upsets you.
Now we have the same case here. I don't do buffs. Last night was my first sortie this camp I think and the Mission Planner killed me on T/O, so I re-upped and tagged along.
4 buffs went to your HQ. NONE of us bombed above 30.5K. I was at that alt and I was the highest. I was the last one on the run in from the IP and the rest were below me.
Now, that's apparently not what your fighters saw. I can't help that.
But comparing the two incidents, maybe there's an altimeter problem.
LOL TAC. A Buff used as a FIGHTER? I simply can't believe Knightland would allow it! After all the complaints about other countries doing it. Did they send you to an FEB and take your wings? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
G-A-M-E.
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certainly wasn't one of my raids then. I have never made a raid above 27k. Usually 25k more typical.
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Originally posted by Zigrat:
certainly wasn't one of my raids then. I have never made a raid above 27k. Usually 25k more typical.
Zig, you are not online 24 hours a day (I don't think!) so claiming that "Knights don't buff over 25k" is unfounding. However, I will say that while you and I, Cave, and a few other 'Generals' are online, we've never gone above 25k in buffs simply because it takes too long and effectivity is null when trying to bomb at altitudes higher than that. Besides, most Knight Buffers I know "like" the cons to come and attack, this way our escorts have something to do!
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I think about to be the reason of the resentment of Zigrat.
But in this discussion, there is a fundamental misunderstanding.
I was not going to bomb, that had done it already to 18K.
I reentered to my airport and I have seen a high dot that approached, I have simply reached, for as possible, the quota of my chaser.
There has not succeeded, Zigrat continues me for at least 10 min, looking for a position of advantage for attack me, when to believed be able to him do, he has carried his attack.
If we have climbed much is only because he delayed to attach me.
But if I looks at that he comes me behind and I try to oppose his attack, he seems me a little bit paradoxical that he demanded that checks also the altimeter.
I am me simply defended, the fact that has detached him a wing, doesn't depend certainly from the quota to which we flew.
Immediately after Zigrat has told me on the channel 1 that I was an alt dweeb.
I have begged pardon, also if I don't believe be obliged to me apologize for nothing.
I have used the guns when Zigrat was to less of 1K of distance and I shoot in deflection, I have not done anything else other than to defend me.
Don't I have this type of problems or discussions with the Bishops, do they fly to normal altitudes, but the Knights, do they often fly to altitudes of 30K and over and do they have the very bad custom of attach the same target in group, that they expect, that the others stays to 20K to become to shoot down from them?
All what I succeed to understand from this topic he is that to any pilots, he doesn't like shoot down, above all from the bombardiers.
I have bad newses for them, withered the time, more the pilots of bombardiers learn to use the guns, for you will be more and more difficult be able to go out uninjured from an attack to a bombardier, not because the bombardiers are overmodelled, but because the experience increases and you not develop new tactics.
Identical thing will be verified with the vehicles, after an initial period in which he looked as if the vehicles are easy preys, today many pilots could be in serious difficulty to attack a vehicle property managed from who he has done experience.
Cheers.
Max
PS: If you don't want the others to climb to 30K, don't fly at 30K. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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When you are flown, there is an only certainty:
In a way or in the other, to earth you will return.
[This message has been edited by Maxopti1 (edited 08-15-2000).]
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Toad:
Well, 30.5, or 31k in a buff is sort of out there in the safety/boredom/dweeb zone. If not in it, then extremely close.
To me, part of what makes AH good is the challenge. And, one of the reasons I originally picked the G10 (apart from rip and wezel telling me it was good if mastered) is that I'm rather impatient and like to get to 20k as fast as possible.
Now, at 30k, there's little that can challenge a buff. Say you have a diving con from 35k; he makes one pass, then has to play catch up. Then have to grab to 34k again, before another attack. All while buffs puff along at rather high speed.
Me; normal attack altin buff is 12k, 22k for HQ strikes. Then there's challenge, and fighters have a chance.
Your mileage may vary. But it is the opinion of this holy saint that 30k buff is dweebery. Not saying the pilot or person is, but the act of flying at those alts is.
<S!>
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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:::YAWN:::
<climbs in a lawn chair and goes to sleep>
Beefcake- Founder of BPAAW (Buff Pilots Against Alt Whiners)
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"LOL TAC. A Buff used as a FIGHTER? I simply can't believe Knightland would allow it! After all the complaints about other countries doing it. Did they send you to an FEB and take your wings? "
Nope, it was an experiment I did that night. You were reported at 30k+. Had I taken a fighter, I would never have survived one pass or at best done one pass and then i wouldve been outrun by buffs while my fighter struggles to climb the alt I lost in that pass.
My buff did an amazing turn and dive at 29k without losing alt on the turn. That is AMAZING. A fighter wouldve dropped like a rock.
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Originally posted by Toad:
Ah, Swag...
We were all at 30.5 K. NONE higher, until after the drop. I RTB'd at 32K...passed Knight TAC in a B-26, coalt..he revved and got me on final. Nice Kill, TAC. I never even bothered to see if u turned around.
In fact were were LOWER than the last Knight Zigrat Raid I intercepted on Bish HQ.
I climbed to 33k on those guys North of our HQ (still hadn't dropped), took hits, dove away in a Mustang.
My personal suggestion? Let's remove all buffs and ground vehicles and get back to Fighter Combat! I'm semi-serious, too! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
<dives for cover>
mm Toad, i was a 33.5k spit9 and all 17s and 51s were above me by 3 to 5k IB to HQ.
Whels
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Zigrat, the buffs may not have been attached to your mission. They may have been freelancing; they were trailing the pack. It was, however, during one of your missions. I don't view it as a "big deal", however. I think all this "honor" stuff about how one plays the game is just going to leave people frustrated.
People play the way they want to play. Pretty simple really and you can't change human nature.
Whels, if you were the Spit that I think Wpn shot down while we were still a long way from the target...you LOOKED much higher than the buff in front of me that was being attacked. You also LOOKED much higher than I was and I was 28K at that time.
Perhaps there's something in the display that makes everyone look higher. I don't know what your altimeter read, but I ABSOLUTELY know what mine read. Max inbound to drop was 30.5K. RTB, I climbed to 32K.
TAC, so experiments are OK then? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Well, figure that this was my one "Experiment" for this tour. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I don't do buffs, rarely do ground vehicles.
Santa, I find ALL buffing deep in the boredom zone. But I'm not going to start a flame war with my views on buffing, ground vehicles, ships, and whatever else is coming vis-a-vis a Fighter Air Combat Simulation. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
It's a game. It's a pretty good game. I enjoy it. I don't lose sleep over any of it.
Disagreements do arise when some people expect other people to play a certain way or style.
Without condemning or condoning any of the various behaviors that seem to cause some people heartburn, I'll just observe that people are going to use what is in the game. Whether or not someone approves of the "style".
Bishland is a prime example. I do think the different countries attract different styles of player. Bishland is full of a bunch of independent cusses that "just came for the beer". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
It's real tough to get anything organized in Bishland. Independence is the watchword and loyalty to anything larger than your squad is unusual. Real Estate? Capturing/losing fields in Bishland pretty much draws a "ho-hum" from most. The individual fight is the thing...not some grand strategic concept. If there were a "reset" historical record, I'd wager the Bish are last in winning a reset.
Nightly there are cries for unity, organization and scathing critiques from some who would have us be something we are not. I'm somewhat sympathetic to their pleas...but face facts: BISH are just not good at that. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) There's too much of the "freelancer" in our makeup.
Knightland otoh seems real focused. Does it draw that kind of player? Does it draw people that need that experience, that feeling of belonging to a big organzied unit?
I don't know; don't really thing about it.
I just know I'm happy where I am right now and enjoying the game. One reason I enjoy it is that I rarely buff or tank. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
YMMV
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-15-2000).]
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Maybe HTC could put somekind of cloud layer over the fields in 22k ?
Then buffs could climb to safe alt if they wanted so but need to came down if they want to hit anything ?
IMO this really is the issue which should be handled somehow. Buff's defensive armament is already allmost too much to handle and if some dweebs climb over 30k it's really too much.
Last week I killed 3 Spits in a buff @22k.
Other planes (Nik+Spit)left me alone (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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btw:
This is what my b-17 looked after that ride. She really looked like a swiss cheese but I managed to "come home" and didn't fly at 30k. I really had fun then (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/aces/damage_b17.jpg) (http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/aces/damage_b17_2.jpg)
[edit]Changed pics to compressed jpg's
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 08-15-2000).]
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Whels, if you were the Spit that I think Wpn shot down while we were still a long way from the target...you LOOKED much higher than the buff in front of me that was being attacked. You also LOOKED much higher than I was and I was 28K at that time.
Perhaps there's something in the display that makes everyone look higher. I don't know what your altimeter read, but I ABSOLUTELY know what mine read. Max inbound to drop was 30.5K. RTB, I climbed to 32K.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 08-15-2000).][/B]
nope i wasnt shot down, i actually killed 2 higher 51s and rtbed after the buffs bugged out. but as i engaged jst east of HQ i was 33.5k and all enemy planes were higher by 3k
at the least.
Whels
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All I can say is that it wasn't me then. Inbound 30.5, after drop default climb to 32k.
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I love that list for the B-17, all the parts that can be damaged. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by StSanta:
For your information, when the kniggits had A1, we ran several bombing missios to bish and rook hq. On those I joined, the buffs didn't go above 23k.
Off topic,
Im sick off seeing this word "kniggits", come up with something else to describe the Knights, that one is just wrong.
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OK, I'll ask...what's wrong with k'niggits?
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If you really need to ask, dont worry about it SOB.
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I'd like to point out that the HQ flight was spotted at 20-22k over A1 when (I think it was Knits) saw us flying over that huge furbal outside A1. I know I saw a Spit and a 190 at least 7k above us but never bothered to engage. P-38 came along too before we left the A1 sector.
That, and all the counters in the A1 sector had ALOT to do with why we climbed to 30k (I was 30,200 during the HQ run) I had leveled the flight out at 21k over A1 till the Spit and all the lower dots showed up.
As Toad said, it was a one time thing. I'd rather be doin somethin else.
Whels, I only saw two Spits during the entire flight. The first one over A1 that was MUCH higher then us, and the one over HQ that dove on me after the 88mm had lit me up. I don't think that was our flight. Might of been the guys hitting A20, but they weren't flyin with our mission.
- J
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Well, here's what I'm thinking about whenever I mention it . . .
...from Monty Python & the Holy Grail...
An armor-clad face appears at the top of the rampart.
It speaks in an outrageous French accent.
Soldier: 'Allo! 'Oo is it?
Arthur: It is I, King Arthur, and these are my knights of the Round Table. Whose castle is this?
S: This is the castle of my master, Guy de Lombard.
A: Go and tell your master that we have been charged by God with a sacred quest. If he will give us food and shelter for the night, he can join us in our quest for the Holy Grail.
S: Well, I'll ask 'im, but I don't think 'e'll be very keen-- 'e's already got one, you see?
A: What?
Lancelot: He says they've already *got* one!
A: (confused) Are you *sure* he's got one?
S: Oh yes, it's ver' naahs. (to the other soldiers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I told 'em we've already *got* one! (they snicker)
A: (taken a bit off balance) Well... ah, um... Can we come up and have a look?
S: Of course not! You are English types.
A: Well, what are you then?
S: (Indignant) Ah'm French! Why do you think I have this out-rrrageous accent, you silly king?!
Galahad: What are you doing in *England*?
S: Mind your own business!
A: If you will not show us the Grail, we shall take your castle by force!
S: You don't frighten us, English pig-dogs! go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person! Ah blow my nose at you, so-called "Arthur Keeeng"! You and all your silly English Knnnnnnnn-ighuts!!!
(the soldier proceeds to bang on his helmet with his hands and stick out his
tongue at the knights, making strange noises.)
...
http://www.intriguing.com/mp/scripts/french.txt (http://www.intriguing.com/mp/scripts/french.txt)
Nothing wrong with a little Monty Python here and there, eh?
SOB
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I liked more "Brian's life" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Okay Sob,
Sorry, it looks to me as a racial slur.
I understand now where it is coming from.
I like the way you spelled it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Just engaged a buff at 36K. In a G10 with wep on I finally caught him. Of course I was wallowing just above stall speed. The out come, just guess.
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I can see it now...
(said with outrageous accent)
"I blew your wing off"
"No you didn't"
"what's that then?"
"It's just a flesh wound"
etc... etc... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
[This message has been edited by dudedog (edited 08-15-2000).]
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LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Intercepting high alt buffers is possible, but you need a lot of patience, you cant go in a buff from low or slow when the fight alt is near 30k.
Speed up, following the buff, as you get close, pull lightly the stick and climb equalling the buff speed, when you're over 3-4k to the buff, level, speed up, then dive, try to aim the tail, stay fast, then level BEFORE reaching the buff alt, stay fast, extend and climb again, for next pass, stay fast, do a 20-30° bank turns, and stay fast.
uhmm, maybe i forget to say: "Stay fast".
Yesterday i land gliding after a 3 buff killing strike, first was at 30k, second 26k, last 20k, i climb until 35k and i found the p47 still flyable at 400mph (never gone down 300k).
The setup for those attacks was really boring, took long time to reach and overclimb those buffs, but still possible.
So if you want to intercept stratobuffs, you need to have the same patience they had to climb that alt, and climb higher.
But if Pyro will give us the two beauties, the stratobuff problem will be solved. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Which beauties?
Me-262 and Ta-152, naturlich !!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Me163 in AH...END OF 35K DWEEB STRATOBOMBERS (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
As perk plane only of course (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) nobody would waste perk points on a plane that has a fuel load of 5 minutes and then has to glide towards the land...
unless there is a 30K dweeb near the field
The satisfaction you'd get with those kills would be awesome don't you think? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
SEriously I think that it is not that bad idea! the 20-25K buffers wont have the problem of the Komet because if you can go and get them with a piston engine plane with no perk points used...whats the point it losing them with a 163?
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Yes, RAM!!!
The Me-163 !!!!
(tears in eyes)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
whrooommmmmm
<Dweebpilot in buff> : "Well, no con, 32k, eh eh nobody can touch me, i set up the bomb run, now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)"
Whooooossshhhhh, bwawawawawa, BOOOOMMMM !!!
<dweebbuff pilot hanging on chute> : "WTF!?!? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)"
<Naso gliding in me-163> : "muhahahaha, 'nother dweebish stratobuff hit the dust (http://users.bart.nl/~jppetiet/ah/fingersmiley.gif) "
[This message has been edited by Naso (edited 08-16-2000).]
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Originally posted by Naso:
Intercepting high alt buffers is possible, but you need a lot of patience, you cant go in a buff from low or slow when the fight alt is near 30k.
In most planes, you can't afford patience because of fuel multiplier...
I did once try to reach B17 with Fw190A8 from 28k, lol.. that was someting.
Ran out of fuel just as I got last shots off and he went down.
I didn't do anything but try to reach him on that flight to test what happens.
B-17 were simply out accerlating my 190A8 and in the turns it kept its speed way more than 190, which seemed to stall in a small turn after the B17 when it turned just a bit.
Only planes that can go after high buffs with patience are those american planes like P47 and P51, others needs bit more fuel due to multiplier.
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Yep, the fuel multiplier screws things up. The planes that historically climbed to high altitudes to hunt BUFFs can't do it. I understand that they want the fuel multiplier to make range important, but it's affecting the altitude you can climb to, which is @#$@#$. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I can imagine Me163..
They get off the ground, at 20k they notice that they aint getting up to 36k due to fuel multiplier (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
..not to talk about gliding in that thing at that altitude with small wings and almost no way to turn or then you lose altitude like mad.