Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: GODO on November 11, 2003, 07:17:22 PM
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We already have an interesting discussion about P51D vs 109K. But, IMO, these are too different rides to compare with each other. Probably, a much closer match would be P51D vs D9/D11 .
Are these planes really on the same league or do we have a clear winner?
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All things being equal (pilot quality, E state) I'd put my money on the pony's better turning and its combat flaps. Especially in AH, with the pony having flat-trajectory .50s that can reach out to d500 or farther.
In the AH MA though, a lot of pony pilots are relatively mediocre; they fly the pony because it's famous. I have no problem engaging a pony in a D9 as long as he doesn't have more than a few thousand feet of altitude on me. The fights usually go the same every time; I scissor, he pops out in front, I land a few hits for no apparent damage, he dives away, I follow and kill him. I usually figure it out real quick if the pilot is good; then I'm in for a tough fight.
But I'd say they're evenly matched enough that it comes down to skill more than airplane.
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Same skill level, and I'd also bet on the P-51D.
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IMHO they are sufficiently close that pilot skill or sheer luck will be the determining factor. 1 on 1 I feel the P-51 hold a slight advantage though.
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all the 190d9 can do is hope it gets a running start fast enough.
:D
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Originally posted by Shane
all the 190d9 can do is hope it gets a running start fast enough.
:D
And then let that n00b pony pilot overshoot once he gets up to speed trying to follow :D
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advantages:
190d9
Climb
speed
roll
p51
turn
guns are a wash imo.
2 pilots that flew to the planes strengths... p51 would be defensive. 190d should be able to dictate the fight and leave at will. 51 can't leave.
I think 190d has the edge.
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51 D...
Because its just so much more maneuverable.. Speed advantage is in the D9's favor.. but hell its hard to reverse in that plane after taking a pass, it'll lose most of its E, if the 51d's in hot pursuit... Climb is slightly better, not much to make a huge difference, and well the Roll is something that all 190's can do which is a HUGE asset. This could really be the factor which lets the 190 win but.. the D9 (feels like) it has horrible verticle control, If the 51d isn't careful the overshoot would occur, but heck that goes the same for the D9..
Soo..
51 D...
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I suck in all 3 but have a better chance of landing a tracking shot in a P-51D due to higher ROF and better bullet ballistics.
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I forgot to say real P51D vs real Dora.
In the case of AH, D9 main advantages are acceleration at level from lo to med speeds, substained climb, roll (only from lo to medium speeds) and 10 mins of WEP.
P51D hot points would be roll at hi speeds, dive, slow speed turning, control at hi speeds and zoom climb.
All in all, AH P51D may be a better fighter. and D9 a clearly better interceptor.
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Originally posted by Virage
advantages:
guns are a wash imo.
Personally, I give the 51 the guns edge. Those .50s give me a better chance at doin' "Ma Bell" (reach out and touch someone) than I get with the D-9s cannon/mg's. Hell, I can easily do 350 to 400 yard high deflection shots in a 51 and get hits. Probably just me, but, I've never been able to master that in the D-9.
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not all of us p-51 pilots are nubes.....
check 6
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Probably just me, but, I've never been able to master that in the D-9.
It is much harder in D9, but once u master high deflection shots with 151/20s, you'll find them much more effective than 50s for ranges below 400 yards. P51 still keeps a clear advantage for long range shots.
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I think as with every German plane and its counter-combat Allied plane, all things being equal, the fight starts out in the advantage having to go towards the German plane, but as the fight goes on the slide rule shifts to the Allied plane. The German planes roll and accleration allow it to make a merge or two and if it cant land hits, simply run away. However, if the two continue to hash it out, E states drop and this falls right into the Allied planes strengths. Heck, for the irst 2 merges, i would take a Dora over a Spit9 :eek:
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Man, these planes are so close to equal. IMHO: edge to D9 in high speed fights. The roll rate is something the pony simply cannot match and it is not too difficult for the d9 pilot to use it for reversal...
Low speed I give edge to pony.... turn radius, combat flaps... etc.
Individual traits are nicely divided: speed to D9, roll to d9, climb to d9, wep duration to d9.
Gun ballistics to pony, cockpit views to pony, turn ability to pony, fuel duration to pony.
Some may wonder how much cockpit view can matter. Strictly IMO, it can matter quite a bit... most especially when tracking multiple victims.
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I've never had a really tough times vs d9's in my mustang. They climb a bit better, but not really well enough to stay out of trouble and the roll rate only works if the mustang driver dosen't cut throttle. With full flaps, the mustang easily outturns it and top end seems about even. At high, low or stall speeds I think I'd prefer being in the mustang.
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Hmm.. cut throttle and the you can stay behind the d9.. not necessarily with it though.... it can just leave at that point... or even seperate and go vertical. It seems your comment was directed at my reference, and others to the D9's roll rate.
We were talking about pilots being equal. If you're an above average pilot certainly you can overcome some of a particular enemy plane's performance advantages.
I'd rather be in the mustang too though, I just think if the d9 pilot is allowed to play to his advantages that he'd have at least an equal chance of winning.
I guess it's just comes down to a difference of opinion.
As for having trouble w/ the d9... well you could be among the few...although statistically speaking, I have less trouble w/ it than even your vaunted self. :)
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I apologize if you took this for a pissing contest Steve, because that wasn't what it was. Your style of mustang flying is very different from my own. You tend to use speed a great deal in fights, and I tend to go to flaps earlier. I'm not saying one's better or more fun than the other, just saying our styles are quite different. With that in mind, our ratio's vs all planes will be different, and I hardly stated anywhere that I was "vaunted". That said, both pilots being equal...I still give a big edge to the mustang.
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D9 is a fast brick, 51D is a fast, heavy brick with flaps and a long reach.
I'd much rather fight a 51D than a 38 or spit14, even though the other two are harder to kill.
It's more fun to use a 152.
Equal pilots, I think the 51D wins 65-75% of the time easily.
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in a deep, hormonal whiny tone I will add that it's BS many of the planes can't use flaps >200, if not >180mph.
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Actually moot it's "BS" that players think they should be able to use the flaps on all aircraft in aircombat for some perceived advantage.
Only a few WWII aircraft could - the N1K2, P-51D are two examples that had flaps or flap settings for combat.
And I think the BS is HTC modeling auto-retraction of flaps instead of having them become jammed or damaged. IMO they might as well have added an automatic landing gear retract feature too.
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Originally posted by dawg03
not all of us p-51 pilots are nubes.....
check 6
Ya beat me to th punch, dawg. I used to be pretty fair driver in a pony, then I started 'sperimintin with other rides. Shoulda stuck to th pony. Think I'll go back to it, now after this thread.
I read in either Yeager's or Anderson's book (don't remember which one) that whenever they took off in their P51 they just knew they were better than the enemy, and would always win. I think whoever wrote that was talking as much about their plane, as they were about their own ability. They had that much confidence in the P51.
slim03
edit: ditto what WESTY said.
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well surprise me: the 190D (to pick just one) had no possible way to pull down some flaps at 200mph or more?
I'm thinking flaps are a part of the plane as any other, you could substitute "flaps" for wep or control trims.
I agree with the rest.
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Pissing contest? Manx, I think you are taking my post with the wrong tone. You commented that:
I've never had a really tough times vs d9's in my mustang.
I took that you meant this as a way to show that your opinion had some merit since you beat d9 pilots more often than not.
I replied in kind; showing, based on that logic, my opinion had merit as well.
Although you really didn't need to do this, at least for my benefit. As a long time acquaintance of mine in flight sims, I would give your opinion due consideration regardless.
As for the "vaunted" thing... it was a compliment...nothing more.
As I said it's really just a matter of opinion... you give the mustang a big edge.. I give it a slight one.
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Well I'll proly get flamed hard for this. I would guess that the ability to put out flaps out at high speeds might be a better tactic defensively than offesively. The higher lift ratio to forward speed created at high speed I would think would create somewhat of an unstable condition for a moment. Can't imagne that being a desired situation at a time of having an advantage.
Using kill data to compare planes is flawed. Saying because P51s shot down a lot of Doras makes the Pony better is slanted info. Thats like saying I'm the greatest boxer in the world because I knocked out all my opp. while they were already in the middle of a fight with someone else ;) Not to mention that after heavy Allied bombings and the ending resource of good pilots made the Dora Corps a bit substandard.
Again I would stand by the statement that niether plane was superior to the other all-around. Each one having particular advantages in different situations.
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Misunderstood your post Steve. JB, the P51's ability to employ flaps at high speed gives it an immediate edge in a dogfight. The more control you can maintain early in a dogfight the more quickly you can dispose of an opposing player. This ability will allow you to avoid the mass hoardes diving in to help their buddy. For my style, it's very beneficial...for others it wouldn't be that advantageous. I have a tendency to fight in heavy traffic area's rather than 1 on 1's, and have found that most D9's who have gotten me have hit me when I'm engaged with another con. But I suppose that's not unusual for any type of fighter in the game lately.
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If Kurt Tank built it and I fly it I'll win :D :rofl
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Hola Godo.
El Fw 190 D era superior al P 51 D. Si posteas la pregunta en un foro español, no tendré problema en contestarte detalladamente.
Por cierto, Chuck Yeager opinaba lo mismo que yo.
Aquí tienes un foro en el cual puedes plantear tu cuestión.
Foro (http://www.meristation.com/sc/foros/msm_Vmensajesp.asp?cf=41&n=1)
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190D out accelerates P51 big time also.
My money is on P51 though. Its more balanced (speed, firepower, turning ability).
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Chuck Yeager said the FW190D was the best prop fighter he ever flew provided you kept it under 25,000. He flew them as a test pilot after the war in the USA.
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Originally posted by Westy
they might as well have added an automatic landing gear retract feature too.
They did :)
Originally posted by JB42
I knocked out all my opp. while they were already in the middle of a fight with someone else
So THAT'S how you get your K/D ratio so high :lol :mad:
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Gracias Dark. Mi pregunta original estaba encaminada a una comparación real de ambos aparatos, no basada en AH. Y de un Dora de finales del 44, con MW50 frente a un P51D recien llegado al frente. Ahí tendríamos relación potencia útil / peso, drag estático y dinámico. Curvas de potencia útil hasta 20k, por ejemplo. Máximo ratio de alabeo, inercia y aceleración de alabeo. Velocidad corner, velocidad de pérdida sin flaps ni tren. Comportamiento en pérdidas. Máximo ángulo de trepada mantenida, trepada mantenida óptima, rátio de planeo, etc. Diferentes regimenes del motor y tiempo en los que pueden mantenerse. Etc. Es decir, datos reales comparando una máquina con otra, sin tener presente el factor "piloto" ni sus gustos o preferencias personales.
Hay mucha literatura y testimonios que se decantan a favor del Dora, otros a favor del P51, pero nunca he visto una comparativa "científica" al respecto.
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The D-9 will out- "E-fight" a P-51. For that matter a 190A-8 will to, if you are careful. Trick is to get the P-51 to bleed off its speed chasing you around in oblique circles, then once it is really slow with flaps out, you take your circle over the top and come down on their tail for a snapshot. In a scissors fight or a turn-fight the P-51 wins hands down though.
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ah, what the hell do know.....:D
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Originally posted by GODO
Hay mucha literatura y testimonios que se decantan a favor del Dora, otros a favor del P51, pero nunca he visto una comparativa "científica" al respecto.
No creo que la vayas a ver nunca. Se podría hacer una super-simulación en función de los planos y datos conocidos de ambos aviones. Pero sin necesidad de tanto preciosismo tecnológico podemos atenernos a datos bastante objetivos y bien conocidos y analizar ambos aviones.
- Potencia: Hasta los 25k(1) el Dora es más potente que el P 51 D.
- Alabeo: El Dora es mejor salvo a muy elevadas velocidades (+ 400MPh)(2).
- Aceleración: El Dora es superior. Pero el Pony también lo hacía muy bien, bastante mejor que en AH.
- Trepada: El Dora es superior salvo a grandes alturas.
- Dureza: El Dora era más duro. El mustang como todos los aviones yankis era muy duro, pero un impacto en su motor(radiador) y adios muy buenas. Lo vulnerabilidad del radiador del Fw 190 D en AH es una broma. Salvo en HO era jodidisimo darle en el motor.
- Potencia de fuego: Bastante mejor en el Dora. Contrariamente a lo que pueda parecer en AH, las 0.50 no era más efectivas a largas distancias, sino en las cortas. En la vida real a D500 las pocas balas (dispersión) del 0.50 que impactaran en el Fw 190 D simplemente rebotarían. Un impacto del 20mm cargadito de explosivo podía hacerte un boom muy desastroso. En AH está muy mal modelado el efecto del armamento en cuanto a la relación energía cinetica y energía explosiva. Espero que AH 2 suponga un cambio.
- Manejo: Gracias a su ordenador mecanico, el Dora (190's) era un avión que requería muchas menos atenciones por parte del piloto, pudiendose centrar este plenamente en el combate.
- Radio de acción: Pony wins, pero los Doras no necesitaban realizar labores de escolta.
- Visión desde la cabina: No veo casi ninguna ventaja por parte del P 51 D. Tampoco he estado sentado en ninguno de los aviones. Alguno de los últimos Fw 190 F y Ta 152 contaban con la mismo cristal en forma de lágrima que los aviones americanos.
- Flaps y giro: Sólo un piloto muy ESTUPIDO o AMBICIOSO o DESESPERADO utilizaría estos recursos en combate con aviones alemanes o norteamericanos. ¿Sabes como murieron los máximos ases del P 47 y P 38 en el pacifico? Pues por arriesgarse a un combate de giros con Ki 43 y un Zero respectivamente. Supongo que unos cuantos alemanes se quedaron en Rusia por girar con los Yaks. La aviones americonos y alemanes eran para llegar, pegar y largarse, para hacer piruetas ya estaban los spits y los zekes. En AH la vidas sólo cuesta 15$ mensuales.
- Datos de combate: Analiza los números que consiguieron algunos de los pilotos de la JG 26 y la JG 54 los últimos 8 meses de la contienda. Autenticas barbaridades luchando contra enemigos muy superiores numericamente y en el caso de los americanos con aviones muy competentes.
- Opiniones de pilotos: Muy largo para ponerlo todo ahora mismo.
Si yo estuviera a finales de 1944 y tuviera que dotar de aviones a un escuadrón elegiría el Fw 190 D. Que conste que soy un fan del Me 109 y que el Mustang me parece un avión EXCELENTE.
En la red puedes encontar test "cientificos" realizados por los norteamericanos entre Fw 190 A¿? y F6F, F4U. También hay material publicado de la RAF, pero es bastante parcial y realizado en condiciones ridiculas.
Un saludo.
(1) Raritos los combates de la WW 2 a más de esa altura. Mucho frio colega.
(2) Buena velocidad para escapar, pero mala para apuntar ;-).
(3) En AH el Dora también es ligeramente mejor.
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Originally posted by DarkglamJG52
En la red puedes encontar test "cientificos" realizados por los norteamericanos entre Fw 190 A¿? y F6F, F4U. También hay material publicado de la RAF, pero es bastante parcial y realizado en condiciones ridiculas.
Desgraciadamente, gran parte de la información necesaria para comparar las dos máquinas parece que es aun confidencial, o, más bien, propiedad privada. La información pública es muy genérica, tipo las gráficas del AH. Es decir, tienes los límites, pero no cómo o de qué manera se llega a ellos. Una simple gráfica de aceleración en vuelo nivelado ya sería complicada de obtener o generar a partir de esos datos públicos. En ese último caso, por ejemplo, cabría suponer por puro sentido común que el D9 aceleraría mejor que el P51 de bajas a medias velocidades a nivel del mar. A partir de ahí la cosa se complica con las curvas de potencia de ambos motores según la altura. Añade el factor de eficiencia de la hélice, el efecto RAM, la resistencia al avance según la altura y la velocidad, y el resultado es que modelar (o suponer) correctamente las curvas de aceleración de cada avión se convierte en un verdadero rompecabezas.
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Urchin is correct...
the dora strength against the stang is its acceleration advantage.
Suck the stang into a trap and watch him flounder as you have the engine power to manuever for a solution... (any other tactic would be highly ill advised.)
Thats how I would beat the stang.. If the p51 flys passive it could be a stalemate with advantage going to the dora over time (increased wep)
just my opinion,
Flame on...
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dunno if i missed an episode or something, but I thought comparison of planes meant the pilots were kept identical.
At high speed the light controls of the 190 ought to beat the stang, and at lower speed the docile 51D's surefootedness and more exploitable turn and E-bleed agility paired with good reach would win over the D9's smaller elevator authority and torque.
if it were matched vs a D-11, I imagine the 51D would be truly stuck in mud with all that long range fat and other design goal accomodations on it.
Still curious why it's wrong to imagine the flaps not deploying over near or over 200mph is BS. To me it looks like another standardisation of performance, like the WEP times, self retracting flaps, etc.
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moot, if our D9 and P51D resemble the real ones, the P51 has much lighter controls than D9 at hi speeds (also at lo speeds). They may be on par at 300 mph.
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The P-51 had heavy elevator controls at high speed, some pilots have compared it to the 109 in this respect. Aileron control at high speed would be about equal, whith the 190 gaining clear superiority in roll at medium and low speed.
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see what i mean? have a hunch sth is wrong, the P47 controls are wrong even by pilot anecdote and general consensus too.
tho i meant more in the realistic dogfight speed range before compression rather than limit break up speeds. 350 or so, no more.
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Originally posted by GScholz
The P-51 had heavy elevator controls at high speed, some pilots have compared it to the 109 in this respect. Aileron control at high speed would be about equal, whith the 190 gaining clear superiority in roll at medium and low speed.
This is correct. At high speeds the P-51 was termed to be "a real two-hander" on the elevators. On the other hand, pilots loved the ease and precision of the ailerons.
My regards,
Widewing
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Folks, I have over 120 landings in the remote control airplane PT-40. The P51D would definately win.
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rofl
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I'm wondering if the "stiffness" we see when flying the dora is true to life?
It would bleed alot of energy turning, but is the "turn rate limitation" of the AH dora correct? Is it a AH design limitation placed on it to not make it über?
In sustained turning it makes sense that you cannot make the nose come around anymore, but at hi/mid speeds why shouldn't we be able get better turnrate?
(note: I'm not talking about turn radius)
Anyone "in the know" on this?
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wtf
'450 at most', not 350.
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Originally posted by jodgi
It would bleed alot of energy turning, but is the "turn rate limitation" of the AH dora correct? Is it a AH design limitation placed on it to not make it über?
ding! it's the HTC LW conspiracy. now we have to kill you.
:eek:
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Wait!
I'll give you an offer you CANNOT resist!
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Originally posted by jodgi
In sustained turning it makes sense that you cannot make the nose come around anymore, but at hi/mid speeds why shouldn't we be able get better turnrate?
(note: I'm not talking about turn radius)
Anyone "in the know" on this?
At high speed, turn rate is limited by G. At 400 mph, the Dora can turn with a Zero. Once speeds drop to where turning rate is no longer G dependent, the Zero wins easily. The Dora had a very high wingloading, about 46 pounds per sq/ft, considerably greater than a P-51D. Therefore, it is in the interest of the Dora driver to keep speeds high and avoid turning with the Mustang at or below the Dora's corner speed. This assumes pilots of equal ability. Since this is rarely the case in the MA, skill is usually the deciding factor.
My regards,
Widewing
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The reason I ask is that I've flown the Dora in other sims, and the the handling is different, especially the turn rate.
Same with the high power 109's, other sims don't make them as stiff as they seem in AH.
My guesstimations are primarily based on flying in IL-2 FB.
People seem to agree that, although there has been and are issues with the FB flightmodel, it is not too shabby.
I'm fairly competent as far as aerodynamics are concerned. My question is more related to the portrayal of these aerodynamics in different plane models (AH versus IL-2 FB).
It may be that AH has the most accurate model... I'm just wondering why two very competent design teams can come up with (as I perceive it) so different models, based on the same raw material?
I even like the AH way of doing it, as I mainly fly mid-war rides.
AH has the ENY values and perk system to balance the planeset. What I'm wondering is that has there been some sort of idea that "if the 109G10 is gonna be so hi-powered, we're gonna impede it's maneuverability". And that the drawbacks of added weight and all the prop effects has been exaggerated beyond the historical data?
I have no idea.
I'm just wondering what you guys think...?
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I'd prefere the dora because of it's a better E fighter.
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lol