Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: humble on November 12, 2003, 03:14:39 PM
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This is a "curiosity" whine....
Been flying the spitty abit over last couple days...1st time in a long time. One thing it brought back to me is the uber E retension of the nikki. I was tooling along at 14k or so watching inbounds coming toward base I upped from...level with wep at ~340 or so...watched slightly higher alt nikki alter to come in...turned into him at 7.0 or so and took under on merge and extended dead level as he went for bad nose down shot...any way watch him pulling max G's bending down around...and see him rocket back up my prettythang...now over the last couple days I've seen Hogs, ponies, 38's, la-7's & jugs all try that move and fail to close enough to force me to break of the rope...the nikki not only could of caught me...it would of climbed 1500 ft over me:)...course I broke of back into him and had no further problems with him...but I can't believe the nikki can pull max G turn and retain E better than any other plane in the game by that much...
This ends the latest nikki whine...
hopefully AH2 will change the FM for the better....bring back 1.3 FM:):):aok
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God I love the N1K2. No plane in AH before or since has elicited so many tears. And the only evidence ever offered to show that it was modelled incorrectly... showed that it didn't have enough ammo! Classic :D
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Bring the Air Warrior airplane-specific factory strat target to Aces High!
Actually, the n1k2 isn't as much a threat to my well-being as the Spitfire IX and LA-7 are.
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Originally posted by SOB
God I love the N1K2. No plane in AH before or since has elicited so many tears. And the only evidence ever offered to show that it was modelled incorrectly... showed that it didn't have enough ammo! Classic :D
LOL....
1st i'm not a "nikki basher" I don't whine to anyone about what they fly....
As for "evidence" I just gave it to you. Turn rate at given speed and attitude is pure physics...A plane in vertical obilque turn (nose down) is fighting itself. Normally you'll see significant amount of seperation occure before the con begins to close the gap. The nikki is able to generate a very tight turn in this nose down vertical turn and maintain an enormous amount of E. It's "common Knowledge" that I think a huge majority of the MA vets would agree with. I'm not aware of any data that suggests that the Nikki was a quantum leap in aircraft design and capable of this kind of exceptional performance. It's simply a problem with the way the plane is modeled in AH...
As for "loving the nikki"....it's pretty common....especially amonst the ACM challenged.
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I was flying a Hurricane IIC last night and couldn't help but notice how much the nikkies and spits sucked.
MiniD
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Hurri's suck worse, you should never fly them, don't even try it, they don't have enough ammo, they aren't worth it, the 4 20mm's suck, don't do it, stay out of the hurri. i mean it. :aok
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Originally posted by humble
LOL....
1st i'm not a "nikki basher" I don't whine to anyone about what they fly....
[snip]
As for "loving the nikki"....it's pretty common....especially amonst the ACM challenged.
Now THAT is funny. And if you read my post you'll notice you weren't mentioned anywhere in it. I was commenting on the plane. As for your "evidence", it's truly outstanding. I can't believe someone isn't acting on it immediately!
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SOB, thanks for just being you. Came home after a stressful day and got a laugh right off. Don't go changing, love your humor...even the times it's fired at me.
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Originally posted by SOB
God I love the N1K2. No plane in AH before or since has elicited so many tears. And the only evidence ever offered to show that it was modelled incorrectly... showed that it didn't have enough ammo! Classic :D
So is there any data showing that it is modelled correctly? I doubt there really aren't any data available conserning it's E retention.
Not that I really care, I can perfectly well get along with them. It's just boring to see the same planes all the time UFO's or not.
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Originally posted by humble
LOL....
1st i'm not a "nikki basher" I don't whine to anyone about what they fly....
As for "evidence" I just gave it to you. Turn rate at given speed and attitude is pure physics...A plane in vertical obilque turn (nose down) is fighting itself. Normally you'll see significant amount of seperation occure before the con begins to close the gap. The nikki is able to generate a very tight turn in this nose down vertical turn and maintain an enormous amount of E. It's "common Knowledge" that I think a huge majority of the MA vets would agree with. I'm not aware of any data that suggests that the Nikki was a quantum leap in aircraft design and capable of this kind of exceptional performance. It's simply a problem with the way the plane is modeled in AH...
As for "loving the nikki"....it's pretty common....especially amonst the ACM challenged.
Just because it's a common whine, that doesn't make it true. I really don't enjoy flying the N1K2 much, and I don't find them especially formidable to fight.
Maybe we can put this stuff to rest with a simple test. As I have shown elsewhere on the BBS, mass is the primary factor in a zoom climb. I have tested every fighter in the plane set and and the heaviest fighters always have the best zoom climb.
The test is simple, accelerate to 300 mph and adjust power to stablize at that speed. Cut the throttle and engage auto-climb. whatever altitude is achieved, subtract 100 feet to get the net gain. The N1K2 zooms up 1,175 ft. The Spitfire Mk.IX zooms up 1,075 ft. The P-51D zooms up 1,225 ft. The F6F-5 zooms up to 1,600 ft, with the P-47D-30 and F4U-1D right there as well. Even the Bf-109G-10 is hard pressed to exceed 1,100 feet.
This test tells me that the N1K2 is no better than any other type in its weight class.
So, what about zoom climb at max power? I did that too.
Same test as before, except I leave throttle at max power, WEP engaged. At 300 mph I engage auto-climb, and note altitude when climb stablizes (normal climb based on thrust alone). Results?
N1K2: 3,100 ft.
Spitfire Mk.IX: 2,725 ft.
P-51D: 2,750 ft.
F6F-5: 3,150 ft.
Bf 109G-10: 3,475 ft.
Again, I see nothing to indicate the the N1K2 is any different from where it should be based upon its mass and normal climb rate. Especially when the F6F-5 does slightly better.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by humble
This is a "curiosity" whine....
Been flying the spitty abit over last couple days...1st time in a long time. One thing it brought back to me is the uber E retension of the nikki. I was tooling along at 14k or so watching inbounds coming toward base I upped from...level with wep at ~340 or so...watched slightly higher alt nikki alter to come in...turned into him at 7.0 or so and took under on merge and extended dead level as he went for bad nose down shot...any way watch him pulling max G's bending down around...and see him rocket back up my prettythang...now over the last couple days I've seen Hogs, ponies, 38's, la-7's & jugs all try that move and fail to close enough to force me to break of the rope...the nikki not only could of caught me...it would of climbed 1500 ft over me:)...course I broke of back into him and had no further problems with him...but I can't believe the nikki can pull max G turn and retain E better than any other plane in the game by that much...
This ends the latest nikki whine...
hopefully AH2 will change the FM for the better....bring back 1.3 FM:):):aok
Nothing special here, just a classic case of one pilot misjudging the relative E state of the other plane.
ack-ack
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The funny thing is, how everybody acts cool and says "oh, the Nikis ain't nuthin'. I bash 'em all the time" out here on the boards.. but in the MA, get pretty much pissed and furious about how some Niki dweeb can do nothig but HO, fly only dweeb planes and etc etc. - the usual CH1 clashes.
Especially true in the case, when they get shot down by those "you-know-who"s, who specialize in the N1K2-J. I think I've seen pretty many of the 'veteran' people of these boards, ;), just can't resist giving a wordy snap to N1K2 pilots.
Frankly, I hate N1K2s because they are hard to kill. Trying to kill them on co-alt situation takes up a really long time if you don't have a plane that outmaneuvers it, and it sometimes can be almost impossible if you are in a plane that doesn't have a stellar advantage in climb rate. Some of those N1K2 specialists are like cobras - they bite, and don't let go. They don't care whether if there are other enemies around or not - if they target you, they bite at you alone. They know they cannot run, and when facing desperate situations, will do anything to kill you, and don't care if they get shotdown in the process.
Yeah, you know which pilots I'm talking about. Those guys who can almost force a HO shot in, even when you are trying to maneuver away from the initial HO merge, those guys who can get a shot in even when you are extending away at 600~700 yards at a rapid rate, and those guys, who make even the veteran of veterans, cry out in ch1 "you fediddlein' N1K dweeb, doncha ever ride another plane?"
:D
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Originally posted by Kweassa
The funny thing is, how everybody acts cool and says "oh, the Nikis ain't nuthin'. I bash 'em all the time" out here on the boards.. but in the MA, get pretty much pissed and furious about how some Niki dweeb can do nothig but HO, fly only dweeb planes and etc etc. - the usual CH1 clashes.
Especially true in the case, when they get shot down by those "you-know-who"s, who specialize in the N1K2-J. I think I've seen pretty many of the 'veteran' people of these boards, ;), just can't resist giving a wordy snap to N1K2 pilots.
Frankly, I hate N1K2s because they are hard to kill. Trying to kill them on co-alt situation takes up a really long time if you don't have a plane that outmaneuvers it, and it sometimes can be almost impossible if you are in a plane that doesn't have a stellar advantage in climb rate. Some of those N1K2 specialists are like cobras - they bite, and don't let go. They don't care whether if there are other enemies around or not - if they target you, they bite at you alone. They know they cannot run, and when facing desperate situations, will do anything to kill you, and don't care if they get shotdown in the process.
Yeah, you know which pilots I'm talking about. Those guys who can almost force a HO shot in, even when you are trying to maneuver away from the initial HO merge, those guys who can get a shot in even when you are extending away at 600~700 yards at a rapid rate, and those guys, who make even the veteran of veterans, cry out in ch1 "you fediddlein' N1K dweeb, doncha ever ride another plane?"
:D
classic stuff :lol :aok
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Kweassa, if you ever see me get upset about a N1K2 killing me online (you won't), you're welcome to give me a virtual kick in the nuts. 'Cause at that point, I'll deserve it. ;) Of course, I'm usually the one doing the HO'ing in the N1K2 or the Mossie or any other plane I'm flying where I just can't resist the urge to point the nose and shoot. But maybe that's why I don't care...I AM a dweeb. :D
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Originally posted by Widewing
F6F-5: 3,150 ft.
Bf 109G-10: 3,475 ft.
AHA!!!!!!!!!
So the F6F will NOT catch a 109G10 in a zoom climb!
MUAHAHAhahahaha!!!! ;) :D
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But 50cals will..
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The N1K... God's gift to the Spit V.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Kweassa
The funny thing is, how everybody acts cool and says "oh, the Nikis ain't nuthin'. I bash 'em all the time" out here on the boards.. but in the MA, get pretty much pissed and furious about how some Niki dweeb can do nothig but HO, fly only dweeb planes and etc etc. - the usual CH1 clashes.
I'm pretty sure you've never seen me act like this.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
But 50cals will..
:rofl
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Originally posted by Kweassa
The funny thing is, how everybody acts cool and says "oh, the Nikis ain't nuthin'. I bash 'em all the time" out here on the boards.. but in the MA, get pretty much pissed and furious about how some Niki dweeb can do nothig but HO, fly only dweeb planes and etc etc.
:D
Nomak has 25 kills and has been killed 5 times against the N1K2
Not spectacular.......but not bad either.
Its just like any other fighter, learn its strengths and respect them.
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Getting any good Nomak? What's your favourite ride? Pony? You were observed flying 109's a while ago, how you like it? :)
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I'm pretty sure you've never seen me act like this.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Yeah, but I know from experience that you're a dirty skill-less HO Dweeb.
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A lot of the Jap pilots that "specialize" in the N1K hit "impossible" shots because they've got like 10 minute lag. You think you are 6-700 hundred yards away, they see you as 6 or 7 yards away... ditto on the "impossible" HO shots... everything you do is delayed by 5-6 seconds.. if you try to fight them normally you'll get killed because you aren't anticipating far enough ahead.
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Originally posted by GScholz
AHA!!!!!!!!!
So the F6F will NOT catch a 109G10 in a zoom climb!
MUAHAHAhahahaha!!!! ;) :D
I'd watch out for the P-38L though, it reached 3,450 feet! :eek:
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by SOB
Yeah, but I know from experience that you're a dirty skill-less HO Dweeb.
True!
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Urchin
A lot of the Jap pilots that "specialize" in the N1K hit "impossible" shots because they've got like 10 minute lag. You think you are 6-700 hundred yards away, they see you as 6 or 7 yards away... ditto on the "impossible" HO shots... everything you do is delayed by 5-6 seconds.. if you try to fight them normally you'll get killed because you aren't anticipating far enough ahead.
this hits it on the head. Or the pulling lead just about to shoot niki goes spaztic and disapears, WTF whered he go? 1 second later pop hes on your 6.
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Originally posted by GScholz
AHA!!!!!!!!!
So the F6F will NOT catch a 109G10 in a zoom climb!
MUAHAHAhahahaha!!!! ;) :D
F6F-5: 3,150 ft.
Bf 109G-10: 3,475 ft.
Yes ... but its still close enough to send a solid stream of .50s up your butt ... :D
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
The N1K... God's gift to the Spit V.
-- Todd/Leviathn
:D
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it's the cannons stupid.
or has everyone forgotten the uber -1c?
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Niki's are my favorite....................t o kill.
Biggest problem for me is the tunnel vision I get when there are many enemy and one or two are N1Ks.
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Originally posted by Urchin
A lot of the Jap pilots that "specialize" in the N1K hit "impossible" shots because they've got like 10 minute lag. You think you are 6-700 hundred yards away, they see you as 6 or 7 yards away... ditto on the "impossible" HO shots... everything you do is delayed by 5-6 seconds.. if you try to fight them normally you'll get killed because you aren't anticipating far enough ahead.
This is VERY true, and I believe it also explains the phenomenon of superplanes that the original poster mentions in this thread. Naturally this effect is not just limited to any particular plane, or Japan. I noticed this kind of thing happening in warbirds as well, and I was pretty consistently able to confirm that my opponent was at a remote and laggy location. It's too bad, really--frustrating for both sides, since the killer doesn't get the satisfaction of an honest kill and the killee gets massacred in a perfectly safe position. I don't know what the solution is, though, since simply booting cons left and right will ruin the game for everyone concerned. The damn backbone providers need to upgrade their damn networks.
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It isn't the sort of plane that is going to come get you, it barely exceeds 300 mph (low). I have come to believe about the only time a N1k2 (among others) kills you is when you made a mistake. You screw up around a N1k2 you are going to pay, and it is your own fault.
I like N1k2's fine, they are worth a lot of perks!
Soda has a nice write-up (http://www.telusplanet.net/~dsoder/N1K2.htm)
"Fighting the N1K
Dangerous, you never know what to expect from a N1K. It might simply get out of your way or it might spin around and stare you in the face. It really depends on how alert the N1K pilot it. Luckily, there are few decent pilots who ride the N1K around a lot so you can often catch N1K drivers napping.
When attacking the N1K never slow down. The N1K isn't really that tough and seems unable to take a real hit and continue. It's not fragile, but it also seems pretty easy to catch one on fire or knock of a tail. The N1K also has some serious visibility problems from the cockpit. The canopy is heavily framed which can lead to a number of blind spots and difficulties in tracking, so you might be able to sneak up on a N1K fairly easily. Also, most N1K's turn so much that they are vulnerable from almost any angle, not just behind, since what is facing you at one second might be facing away at another. See if you can't get some bait to take the focus of the N1K and then try and time your attack so you slip in behind for your shot. Never slow down though. If you do get slow and try to out-accelerate the N1K he is going to spray the sky full of 20mm and probably get you, even if you think you'd normally be safe from such a tactic. Slash attack, never Head-On, and never get lower than the N1K so he can't corner you.
If attacked by a N1K, try to break free with speed. Dive steeply using roll to get the N1K out of phase and then sprint to safety. You can't really turn with a N1K in most planes and even if you can the smart N1K pilot will move the fight vertical on you and spoil your plans. Don't give even low percentage shots and never assume the N1K will hold fire to preserve ammunition, he won't. The N1K isn't good at high speeds though, or at medium or higher altitudes, so if you meet one up that high simply don't engage unless you get him by surprise or can use a reasonable amount of vertical in order to stay out of harms way."
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Originally posted by SOB
Yeah, but I know from experience that you're a dirty skill-less HO Dweeb.
AND you use combat trim.
*****.
-Sik
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The N1K has always fascinated me...I was cruising along in a 51D at 19k, great speed. Had one go under me, turn, and GAIN on me...wtf? I want warp drive too
;)
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Widewing, try determining the e-retention of the n1k on high-g turns and its ability to maintain perfect control when on wep , nose 90 degrees up and below 50mph.
It has been my experience, both flying the thing and fighting against it, that this plane was either designed by super genious and did perform in WW2 as it does in AH or somethign IS out of whack in this plane in the game.
I dont understand how a plane with such a monstrous engine, on WEP can fly below 50mph and still be able to maintain the same control as if it was flying straight and level. No twisting, no stall behaviour.. its really really weird. A few months ago I did a series of tests with my then TED squaddies.. the n1k hung on prop chasing a p-38 and a 109g10..and no, it did not zoom better than these 2 planes did..but what really stands out in this scenario is that when the 109 and the 38 finally stalled, the n1k was still..pointing..nose .. UP. FULL control.
But that could be attributed to SA and E differences.. pilot's perceptions of speeds ...but get this: the n1k that hung on prop (me on its controls), seeing the 109 / 38 flip over, merely nosed down to level flight , banked and TURNED with nose slightly below horizon.. perfect control. No forces giving you any kinds of problems to make the plane do what you wanted. THAT is really weird. (and yes, n1k still on wep). And this is the source, imo, of the n1k-whining: you out-fly the pilot in the n1k but the plane's weirdness defeats you..not the pilot in it.
The LA7 has a similar thing: its incredible acceleration saves a lot of low skill pilots.. but the LA7 has horrid turn rate, even worse guns and has a rather nasty stall behaviour and low speed handling. OTH, the n1k has average acceleration, but its incredible turn rate at both high and low speeds and its nonexistent stall behaviour gives any low skill pilot the upper hand.. and then add into it 4 cannons that are just a tad worse than the hispano cannon (trajectorywise) and you get yourself a plane that technically can be flown like any Wing-Commander game and come out on top.
HISPD and a few of the Nip pilots in this game are true masters in milking the N1k's advantages AND using ACM. Interestingly enough, I lasted a LOT longer when fighting these guys because they actually use ACM manouvers...resulting in a spectacular kill (me). And you compare it to well known pilots that cant get a kill unless they fly this plane, and you just see them pulling G's like crazy and spraying..with no stalls.
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Originally posted by LePaul
The N1K has always fascinated me...I was cruising along in a 51D at 19k, great speed. Had one go under me, turn, and GAIN on me...wtf? I want warp drive too
;)
Exactly
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This was not a "nikki bash" post...simply a comment on a readily observable trait. I could care less if anyone flies a nikki...it's a relatively easy plane to kill or avoid if your co-e (for a mojority of the plane set) It's also not a tough plane to beat in a knife fight....if your in a spit V, Hurricane, zeke, F4F or FM2.
Replying to earlier comments I didn't misjudge E state at all...I was neg E and knew it...I simply flew the best e retention move I could and observed the Nikki...when it became appropriate I evaded and disengaged and went about my business.
It's pretty easy to observe the combination of turn rate and speed and realize that in some way the nikki's flight characteristics in this specific instance allow it to out perform every other plane in the current set by a wide margin. If you disagree fine...I've flown the nikki enough to know it and use it.
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Out of curiousity I looked up my stats for this tour...I'm 14-1 against nikki.
Again this wasn't ment as a nikki whine...or bash...just a question/comment on ONE element of the Nikki's flight model.
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Originally posted by humble
LOL....As for "loving the nikki"....it's pretty common....especially amonst the ACM challenged.
Hey! i resemble that remark.:p
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Originally posted by Kweassa
The funny thing is, how everybody acts cool and says "oh, the Nikis ain't nuthin'. I bash 'em all the time" out here on the boards.. but in the MA, get pretty much pissed and furious about how some Niki dweeb can do nothig but HO, fly only dweeb planes and etc etc. - the usual CH1 clashes.
:D
they're bashing the style - jousting - more than they're bashing the plane per se. the "niki dweeb" is just salt in the wound.
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Like someone said before, this niki is hardly a threat when compared to its old model we used to have here. La7s on the other hand *eyeroll*
:D
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Originally posted by Widewing
As I have shown elsewhere on the BBS, mass is the primary factor in a zoom climb.
Then try a > 9000lb 190A8 (small plane, heavy buth small surfaces, and so, probably less drag than N1K2), and compare with lighter planes like spit/n1k2.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Getting any good Nomak? What's your favourite ride? Pony? You were observed flying 109's a while ago, how you like it? :)
I dont really have a particular ride I call my Fav.
Love flyn 109s and many others.
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So N1K2 is slow, right? Well, straight and level speed is the most common way to measure how fast is a plane, but not the only way. Speed after a 5g 180d turn also counts, and mostly when you are able to repeat that turn several times. Try to set up a loop circuit 1km long and put N1K2 and P51 on a race of 10 laps, I bet N1K2 will be the winner by far.
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Uber Niki thread!
arrrggggghhhhhh
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-11/465565/deadhorse.gif)
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Originally posted by GODO
So N1K2 is slow, right? Well, straight and level speed is the most common way to measure how fast is a plane, but not the only way. Speed after a 5g 180d turn also counts, and mostly when you are able to repeat that turn several times. Try to set up a loop circuit 1km long and put N1K2 and P51 on a race of 10 laps, I bet N1K2 will be the winner by far.
That'd measure acceleration, and yes, the N1K has better acceleration than the P-51 does.
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So does lag always work to the advantage of the pilot who'
s laggy? Why wouldn't lag coming and going just end up making the game unplayable for the lagger?
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Originally posted by kj714
So does lag always work to the advantage of the pilot who'
s laggy? Why wouldn't lag coming and going just end up making the game unplayable for the lagger?
I think you are correct that the lagger doesn't get too much of an advantage. However, I DO believe that lag gives an advantage to the guy shooting the guns. Any response or extension by the guy in front will be delayed to the FE of the guy in back, and the shooter's FE gets to determine whether any hits were made. The laggier the connection, the worse this effect is. I've been on both sides of this equation, BTW, and to me neither case is satisfactory (although I will admit I prefer winning to losing). :)
One small advantage for the lagger is that the lagger sees all planes lagging and therefore expects this behaviour all the time as he is fighting; while to the non-lagger such behavior comes as a surprise. I hesitate to call that an advantage, though, since it must suck to play the game where eveyone else is laggy all the time. However, someone who expects lag can use that information to their advantage--e.g. they might opt to take an immediate shot rather than manuvering for a better shot (and temporarily presenting their back to a con), because they know that having the enemy in front is an advantage. While the non-lagger doesn't know what the lag is with the con he is fighting, so he might unwittingly make a decision that puts him at a lag-induced disadvantage.
Edit: One corollary of all this is that lag gives some advantage to TnBers over BnZers--whether they are the laggy con or the good con.
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Originally posted by Urchin
That'd measure acceleration, and yes, the N1K has better acceleration than the P-51 does.
All in all it may be considered "acceleration", but the previous case is more related to E-retention. My point is that raw top speed does not convert a plane into a slow or a fast one during combat. Not considering the "dive away" tactical move (where the diving plane is not more a danger), we may take 300 mph as a "top" speed for a close fight, so, the plane that is able to keep more time closer to that speed while maneouvering (and not diving away) would be considered the fastest one. Key factors for that are acceleration and E-retention, and N1K2 shines at both.
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Hi Widewing,
>Maybe we can put this stuff to rest with a simple test. As I have shown elsewhere on the BBS, mass is the primary factor in a zoom climb.
While it's a great idea to do tests, and I prefer tests over "common knowledge" any time, I'd like to point out that your observation is not strictly correct. (That doesn't mean it can't be an accurate summary of your test results anyway.)
How does mass influence zoom climbs without air resistance?
Assuming an engine-less zoom climb to a standstill:
E kin = E pot
m/2 * v^2 = mgh
h = 1/(2g) * v^2
Zoom height is independend of mass.
What does the introduction of air resistance change?
1) We've got to subtract the energy lost in the pull-up from the total energy. The more mass an aircraft has, the more energy it's going to lose. This means increased mass leads to decreased zoom height.
2) In the straight part of the zoom climb, we've to subtract the energy lost to drag from the total energy. One part of the drag consists of the induced drag, that increases with increased mass. Again, increased mass leads to decreased zoom height.
What does the introduction of engine power change?
If the engine is running during the zoom, the total energy is increased by the sum of the energy from the engine thrust. This energy is independend of mass, but depends on engine power and duration of the manoevre.
This leads to the conclusion that zoom climb ability does not improve with increased mass, but that actually the opposite is true.
As other factors, mainly engine power and aerodynamics, influence total zoom height, it's not suprising that the test results don't yield a list of planes sorted by mass with the lightest planes as the best zoomers. It's a bit surprising it comes out in the opposite sort order though :-) Still, that must be due a combination of other factors.
(You could confirm that Aces High modelling yields realistic zoom climb abilities by performing your test with the same aircraft type twice, once at very low fuel and once with a full fuel load. The former configuration should give the better zoom height than the latter.)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Originally posted by HoHun
Zoom height is independend of mass.
Yes, this is absolutely true, and often forgotten. Remember the hammer+feather drop on the Moon....
Originally posted by HoHun
1) We've got to subtract the energy lost in the pull-up from the total energy. The more mass an aircraft has, the more energy it's going to lose. This means increased mass leads to decreased zoom height.
Also true.
Originally posted by HoHun
2) In the straight part of the zoom climb, we've to subtract the energy lost to drag from the total energy. One part of the drag consists of the induced drag, that increases with increased mass. Again, increased mass leads to decreased zoom height.
This is not quite true, and not quite the right way of looking at it. It is better to start from the kinetics and then arrive at energy, for this problem. Let us simplify this case a little and pretend we are zooming straight up (AOA=0, CL=0, induced drag = 0). Now also pretend the total drag is the same for both airframes. The drag force will be the same, but the force is being applied to a smaller mass. The kinetic equation is:
x(t) = V(0)t - 0.5*a(t)*t^2
x(t) = V(0)t - 0.5*(F(t)/m)*t^2
Now F(t) is not a constant with time, since drag decreases with decreasing speed, but since we are comparing 2 planes with the same drag, we can take drag as constant wrt speed for comparison purposes. From this equation, we see that to maximize zoom distance, we have to minimize F/m, which means higher mass gives us a higher zoom climb.
Now we can look at induced drag separately, which is of course worse for higher mass. Perhaps we can even come up with a formula, which determines what AOA/CL (if any) is enough to cancel the mass advantage in a zoom climb.
Originally posted by HoHun
If the engine is running during the zoom, the total energy is increased by the sum of the energy from the engine thrust. This energy is independend of mass, but depends on engine power and duration of the manoevre.
This has a similar effect as drag, but in the opposite direction. So, less mass has higher zoom given the same engine power.
Both of these things (drag and thrust) need to be put together to determine whether mass aids or hinders the zoom. In short, when drag is greater than thrust, higher mass is better. When thrust is greater, lower mass is better. Drag vs thrust changes with time as you are zooming.
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And now that I think about it, what that means is that lighter planes are better zoomers at 100% power (all else equal), since 100% thrust is greater than drag at all speeds below Vmax.
A good test to see if this jives with reality is to take up two planes, one with 10% fuel and the other with 100% fuel (no drop tanks of course). See which one zooms better at 100% power. That way all else is equal, except the mass.
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Originally posted by mold
And now that I think about it, what that means is that lighter planes are better zoomers at 100% power (all else equal), since 100% thrust is greater than drag at all speeds below Vmax.
A good test to see if this jives with reality is to take up two planes, one with 10% fuel and the other with 100% fuel (no drop tanks of course). See which one zooms better at 100% power. That way all else is equal, except the mass.
I've done this offline with and without power, at 25% and 100% for most of the fighters in the plane set.
Without power, the A-20G beats every fighter. Here the 109G-10 and Tempest did poorly. Add fuel to weight to increase zoom height.
With power (I have tested just 14 types), the 109G-10, P-38L and F4U-4 are at the top of the heap. Subtract from fuel weight to increase zoom height.
My regards,
Widewing
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Hi Mold,
>>2) In the straight part of the zoom climb, we've to subtract the energy lost to drag from the total energy. One part of the drag consists of the induced drag, that increases with increased mass. Again, increased mass leads to decreased zoom height.
>This is not quite true, and not quite the right way of looking at it.
Actually, I can't see why it shouldn't be true, or not the right way of looking at it :-)
>It is better to start from the kinetics and then arrive at energy, for this problem.
Hm, I don't understand what your formula would tell us about energy. In my opinion, it should look like this:
Edrag = integral Fdrag ds
Even at equal drag, a lighter plane is going to zoom higher than a heavier plane. Induced drag increases the drag of the heavier plane, so it's going to be even worse. The lighter plane might spend more energy on drag, but that's only because it goes a longer way up.
>>If the engine is running during the zoom, the total energy is increased by the sum of the energy from the engine thrust. This energy is independend of mass, but depends on engine power and duration of the manoevre.
>This has a similar effect as drag, but in the opposite direction.
Well, I'd say
Emot = integral Thrust ds
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Originally posted by HoHun
Induced drag increases the drag of the heavier plane, so it's going to be even worse.
Is that true when your plane is climbing vertically? How can that drag come from weight when you are in a vertical possition and ascending?
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Hi Godo,
>How can that drag come from weight when you are in a vertical possition and ascending?
Well, that's an increase by zero, which is the borderline case of an increase mathematically :-)
However, even going straight up, induced drag certainly isn't going to decrease with increased mass.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Widewing--
Thanks for doing those tests. I think the tests with the fuel changes only are pretty conclusive. Power off, higher mass wins. Power on , light mass wins. However, I'd say power on is a slightly more common situation. Therefore I think a good general conclusion is that lighter planes are better zoom climbers.
HoHun--
Originally posted by HoHun
Hm, I don't understand what your formula would tell us about energy.
My formulas say nothing about energy directly. But realize that what matters to us is height, not energy. The kinetic equations I mention provide us with the answer directly (the height of the zoom). The result of those equations is clear--if the engine is off, and there is air resistance, the heavier plane zooms higher.
Edit: But your points regarding higher induced drag and higher energy expenditure when changing directions to enter the zoom are both correct. Both of these factors will reduce the advantage of higher mass in a no-power situation, and increase the advantage of lower mass in a power-on situation.
Originally posted by HoHun
In my opinion, it should look like this:
Edrag = integral Fdrag ds
Yes, you can also look at it this way, and you will arrive at the same result as I did with the kinetics. Physics is consistent. :) Let us start with your first equation, which is correct for no air resistance:
Ekin = Epot
Now, add the energy from drag to the balance:
Ekin = Epot + |Edrag|
Epot = Ekin - |Edrag|
mgh = 0.5mv^2 - |integral F ds|
h = 0.5v^2/g - |integral F ds|/m
And once again, you can see that increasing mass increases height of zoom.
Qualitatively, you can think of this experiment. Take a solid metal ball, and a hollow plastic ball of the same size. Drop both of them. Which one hits the ground first? The metal one, of course. Why? Because the higher mass and higher inertia are able to "overcome" the equal force from air resistance. But now go to the moon, and do the same thing. Both balls hit the ground at the same time, because no air resistance.
Originally posted by HoHun
Well, I'd say
Emot = integral Thrust ds
Yes, and in this case "Thrust" is acting in the same direction as "ds", so of course it adds to the energy rather than subtracting. We have therefore:
Epot = Ekin - |Edrag| + |Emot|
mgh = 0.5mv^2 - |integral Drag ds| + |integral Thrust ds|
h = 0.5v^2/g + (integral (|Thrust| - |Drag|)/m ds)
So once again, if Thrust is greater than Drag, lower mass is better. If Thrust is less than Drag, higher mass is better. The kicker here is that Thrust is always more than Drag in a zoom climb if you still have engine power, which is why the 109G10 is the best zoomer in the game. :)
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Hi Mold,
>h = 0.5v^2/g - |integral F ds|/m
Slight correction:
>h = 0.5v^2/g - |integral F ds|/(mg)
>And once again, you can see that increasing mass increases height of zoom.
I see your point! As the second term actually isn't independend of mass, that benefit isn't "pure", though.
The conclusion probably is that a 2.5 G pull-up, 90° zoom will favour the heavier plane more than the 5 G pull-up, 45° zoom, due to the variation of the drag term :-)
>The kicker here is that Thrust is always more than Drag in a zoom climb if you still have engine power
... unless you start your zoom going faster than level top speed, like in a zoom from a dive :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Originally posted by humble
This is a "curiosity" whine....
Been flying the spitty abit over last couple days...1st time in a long time. One thing it brought back to me is the uber E retension of the nikki. I was tooling along at 14k or so watching inbounds coming toward base I upped from...level with wep at ~340 or so...watched slightly higher alt nikki alter to come in...turned into him at 7.0 or so and took under on merge and extended dead level as he went for bad nose down shot...any way watch him pulling max G's bending down around...and see him rocket back up my prettythang...now over the last couple days I've seen Hogs, ponies, 38's, la-7's & jugs all try that move and fail to close enough to force me to break of the rope...the nikki not only could of caught me...it would of climbed 1500 ft over me:)...course I broke of back into him and had no further problems with him...but I can't believe the nikki can pull max G turn and retain E better than any other plane in the game by that much...
This ends the latest nikki whine...
hopefully AH2 will change the FM for the better....bring back 1.3 FM:):):aok
I lost a 262 the exact same way. There is no possible way that niki could have hung on its propeller for 1/10th the amount of time that it did. I dont fly nikis, only because I am quite sure they are gioing to fix this blatant misrepresentation of the laws of physics, and I dont want the helicoptor to be my finishing move.
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Originally posted by Widewing
I've done this offline with and without power, at 25% and 100% for most of the fighters in the plane set.
Without power, the A-20G beats every fighter. Here the 109G-10 and Tempest did poorly. Add fuel to weight to increase zoom height.
With power (I have tested just 14 types), the 109G-10, P-38L and F4U-4 are at the top of the heap. Subtract from fuel weight to increase zoom height.
My regards,
Widewing
As a follow-up, I tested most of the fighters for max power zoom climb. The top 5 are pretty much what you would expect with one surprise. Overall, the best zoom climber was the Spitfire Mk.XIV, beating the 109G-10 by about 200 feet, roughly the distance that covered the rest of the group. The Spitfire Mk.XIV easily zoomed away from the Tempest, which fell well behind the F4U-4 too.
My tests showed the following order for the top five zoom monsters:
1. Spitfire Mk.XIV
2. Bf 109G-10
3. F4U-4
4. La-7
5. Dead heat between La-5FN and Bf 109G-2 and P-38L
Of these, the P-38 was in my opinion, the most dangerous due to its superior control at stall speed (no torque).
After these, there is a closely bunched group including the Spitfire Mk.IX, Tempest, N1K2-J, Fw 190D-9 and Bf 109F.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Kweassa
The funny thing is, how everybody acts cool and says "oh, the Nikis ain't nuthin'. I bash 'em all the time" out here on the boards.. but in the MA, get pretty much pissed and furious about how some Niki dweeb can do nothig but HO, fly only dweeb planes and etc etc. - the usual CH1 clashes.
Off topic, but.....feel the need to share.
Yeah I got attacked outright on CH1 last night. I was in a A6m2 at 20k and some rook in a P47D-11 missed on the HO ad I slipped below him.
Long story short. I wind up killing him when he takes the fight to the deck and gets banged by me, and....countless others :rofl ...so he calls me an idiot for taking a zeke to 20k...of course, I apologized...in my own way.
Sorry for the rant, but your comment made me share
Respectfully,
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
I lost a 262 the exact same way. There is no possible way that niki could have hung on its propeller for 1/10th the amount of time that it did. I dont fly nikis, only because I am quite sure they are gioing to fix this blatant misrepresentation of the laws of physics, and I dont want the helicoptor to be my finishing move.
I'm amazed this thread is keeping on ticking...
I guess my question for those who can/do have the ability/understanding of the underlying physics is simple.
Did the Nikki have this exceptional ability to retain E in real life?
Again my original comment is specific to the Diving "zoom turn" that is so prevalent amonst nikki drivers...in all other planes that are known "zoomers" (P47,F4U,F6F,P-38 to name a few) this tactic simply results in a long zoom chase with the "zoomer" as likely to flounder and be roped as to catch it's "prey". With the nikki you get a very tight turn, much quicker overtake as well as an apparently much higher total E state.
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Humble, the n1k did have a powerful 2k HP engine and was relatively light.. it wasnt considered a fast accelerator but it could reach high speeds after a short dive.
I think the more important question is: How does the n1k retain perfect control at very low speeds (50mph or less) when its got its engine on wep and the plane is zooming straight up? And I mean perfect control as in the pilot can, at any time at 50mph'ish just nose down and level and TURN hard. No tendency for the plane to pull to a side or any instability whatsoever in the whole manouver.
Its like if it had a counter-rotating prop of its own snuck somewhere in it.
I can understand it turning hard and retaining a lot of E.. spits do that too. I can understand it being a dangerous fighter to face... McGuire (or Bong i forget which of the 2) even wrote about the thing calling it 'dangerous' to face compared to the other IJ aircraft... i can understand it almost zooming up with a 109g10 or P38.... but this freak UFO control at near stall speeds is just too odd.
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OIO...
1st off I agree with you...but once you let the conversation "devolve" into questions of handling your getting back to the whole "porked FM" question. Obviously a significant percentage of the population (at least those who bother with the BBS) have decided to label any such questions as "another nikki whine". Truthfully I dont have enough understanding of the underlying physics to have a valid opinion...beyond the comment that if the nikki was as good as it appears...then the Ki-84 (a much better plane) would of swept the skies clear of the allies in the pac. The Ki was in wide service but will need to be a perkie on par with the tempest/spit14 here.
I'm simply trying to focus in on 1 specific point...the unmatched ability to pull a max G decending Turn and zoom with unmatched retention of energy...I see it all the time in the MA. It doesnt mean I disagree with what you posted...just that the UFO aspect of the nikki has been "discounted in the marketplace".
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Lag has a huge affect on this game. If you have a steady high ping you can pull off a lot more then you should. People have no idea your comming or if they do they cannot ever react in time.
There is nothing more frustrating then getting killed by some dweeb from brazil or japan with a 14.4 connection, and having to wait 40 seconds to hear the pings that killed you.