Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: mia389 on November 13, 2003, 12:12:22 PM
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Was wondering if a guy could do a flip or a barrel roll in one, with out an incident lol. Would it leak fuel from the carb, or fuel vents while doing it. I know it does hammer heads pretty well but wanna have some more fun with the plane :) Has anyone attempted it? or would that be stupid?
Smokey
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Pretty stupid, I've been training in one for about 6 months and since the carburetor is a float type, pulling negative G's would cut the fuel to the engine and you'd be dead stick. Same thing with the barrel roll I suppose. Get an instructor to take you up in a Decathlon. Mine did and I got to play with it, very fun plane and much more responsive than a warrior.
Edit: you'd need an inverted oil system too.
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Thank you Nacho. That was kindof what I was thinking. A quick flip would be more practical I think but still get the chance of killing the engine. Roll rate is pretty ****ty Im not sure if the piper would do a barrel roll without losing lots of alt.
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a good pilot can do a "barrel roll' (not a alerion roll) and hold positive 1G, but thats not the problen , the plane may not have the alerion authority to do a proper roll.
if you don't know the diff between a barrel and alerion roll,you should not be trying either.
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you can barrol roll anything with enough altitude, even a 747. doesnt mean you should, in fact if you barrel roll that warrior and an FAA guy happened to see you, you wouldn't be flying anything lagally for a while, since the plane is not rated for it. its not even rated for intentional spins for that matter. I agree that you should find someone with a decathalon or similar A/C, i instructed in one for a few years, not only do you get to have more fun, more importantly, you learn how to really use that rudder properly.
Talliven
CFII/MEI/ATP
Emb Pilot
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I have been taking lessons in a piper warrior for a couple of months now, and uh...what nacho said.
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Any positive G maneuver is ok from an engine standpoint.
I know a guy who barrel rolled a warrier, a travel air and 152, but since none of those planes are rated for those maneuvers you could get in deep crap with the FAA. Plus this guy was an awsome stick, very smooth and alot of experiance.
Problem is if you dont know what you are doing and screw the pooch these simple maneuvers can get very ugly.
Worst case scenarios...
1. you go into a flat spin, albeit difficult to do.
2. Overspeed the aircraft and bust something.
3. Pull it off have a blast and do them all the time- thus getting caught by the FAA and lose you license hehehe.
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I thought a barrel roll was one of the easiest maneuvers to do. I bet the wright flyer could do one.
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hehehe
A barrel roll is easy if you enter the roll with enough speed.
Say you dont have enough speed when you enter the roll so you get just high enough and hang the plane on the tail, now you start to tail slide while gravity pulls you back to earth...
Scenario1
Your nose falls through, but maybe you havn't pulled the power, your wings are stalled so you just fall to earth in a flat stall.
Scenario2
Your nose falls through and you are now pointing at the earth you dont pull your power and you get over speed and rip the wings off or bust your control surfaces.
Granted you would really have to fk things up good to get in this situation but things happen fast when they start to fall apart.
But yes a barrel roll is an easy maneuver, if you have done them befor. 8)
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Dont know about a Barrel Roll but Ive done many a wing-over in the PA28. If you wanna do Aerobatic stuff go fet a RV or something like that. The PA28 is a great airplane but it isnt built for high G stuff and it doesnt have nearly enough control authority to do much. GO rent a C150 Aerobat, those are fun to fly too and you can rent them for under $50 an hour. but remember anything more than 30* of pitch is considered Aerobatic and you need a parachute to be legal.
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Man the FAA really takes the fun out of everything. I bet they won't even let you fly your airplane into a barn anymore.
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If you want to THINK about these maneuvers in a Warrior, after reading your dismal showing with love and your CFI, I'd say slap yourself.
Moving on...
152 Aerobat is a fun little airplane. Be sure to have a harness although its not terribly important if you keep positive G's on the airplane but if you're new to the world beyond 60º of bank, then you'll want one. A parachute also, though I've tried opening the doors on a 152 at cruise and its not the easiest task, I can only imagine spinning to the ground with one wing missing it would be even more fun. Anywho...theres a real nice one about an hour and 25 minutes north of where I live that I rent if I need a little extra fun. Strap on a parachute and take a friend for some loops and rolls and see how long it takes them to get queasy.
Piper Warrior/Cessna 172 are not the ideal aerobatic airplanes, though I've witnessed a loop in the latter. Not only that they're not certified for it so its a mute point.
No sense killing yourself...you're still operating off a temporary certificate on which the ink isn't dry...so refrain from doing the dumb stuff for a while and get some training. Think about doing some solo aerobatics when you're trained, equipped, and have 250 hours (Why, yes I'm a hypocrite I had more time upside down before I got my ticket than Mia has time in the sack with a woman. Ok, bad example) and an airplane that is built for the stresses. Invest $12,000-$15,000 in a single hole Pitts and get some dual in a two seater. I'm pondering taking out another 'student loan' to do just that. It directly reflects upon my flight experience...so why not :)
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Man the FAA really takes the fun out of everything. I bet they won't even let you fly your airplane into a barn anymore.
Oh you can fly it into a barn any day of the week. Just make sure you don't kill anyone besides yrself and always notify the darwin awards prior to the show.
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good stuff, might have to rent me a diff plane or go up with someone. No sence lossing my licsence right away:p
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Anyone who even contemplates barrel rolls in a PA28 should not have a licence.........period. The sooner you get caught the better, you obviously have no clue as to safe pilotage.
Stupid is as Stupid does.
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Originally posted by baders
Anyone who even contemplates barrel rolls in a PA28 should not have a licence.........period. The sooner you get caught the better, you obviously have no clue as to safe pilotage.
Stupid is as Stupid does.
Little bit of mis-guided frustration there? :p
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Frustrated..........yep, misguided...............no.
As a long time pilot i've seen a few cowboys that thought they were bullet proof. Quite a few come unstuck at some stage..............sadly, taking other people with them :(
Get a clue, read the PA 28 Pilots Operating Manual. Its not something you scribble in when you can't find any paper on board ;)
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Personaly, I plan on a long uneventfull flying career. The mandatory stall spins are fun enough for me:) Oh, and the odd accidental chiming on floats is more than enough fun.
Airbumba
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Originally posted by baders
Anyone who even contemplates barrel rolls in a PA28 should not have a licence.........period. The sooner you get caught the better, you obviously have no clue as to safe pilotage.
LOL - A little over dramatic baders. I know, I know - "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots."
No a prolonged life of aerobatics is not a good thing, the occasional barrel roll or loop by a noob or even an intermediate pilot is not a good thing, but in the hands of an experienced, smooth solid stick, who can do a 1g roll or loop, well its 1g, nuff said.
Granted a warrior isn't worth much else than going from one place to another slowly strait and level. A 152 would be much better, although completely under powered and probably over houred especially if it is/was a flight school air plane. 6000+ TTAF most of em. Id like to see the Aluminum fatigue stats although there is a ton of strait and level life left in em even at those hours. 8)
Yeah if your doing it below 4 to 5 k over Manhatten or LA or some other major town or city, your a Dumbprettythang. If your putting on a show for the wildlife, cows or rattlers, without an FAA guy or another human for miles, then long live the old days where you could kill yourself at will. 8)
Oh well safe flying to all. Badders is right, even if it is a little over dramatic.
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Im young I still think stupid, what did you expect. Why I came here to get the more expierenced advice. Ill take it, though. I wanna some some messed up shiit in a plane though. Think Ill go somewhere else to do it.
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**** the piuper, tell us about heather. I think I saw her a few weeks ago :)
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Originally posted by mia389
Im young I still think stupid, what did you expect. Why I came here to get the more expierenced advice. Ill take it, though. I wanna some some messed up shiit in a plane though. Think Ill go somewhere else to do it.
Coming to a flight sim bulletin board is the LAST place to ask advice on how to fly an aircraft in real life. Please ask a qualified instructor & consult the PA28 manual. You will live a longer & ultimately happier life. No offense intended.
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Hi Paul, nice to see you around here.
Guys, rememeber that someone has to fly the plane after you. You should place THEIR life at risk.
BTW Retnuh's plane went down last weekend. Engine stuffed, forced landing, they had to disassemble it to get it back to the hanger. No injuries/damage other than the engine, which was going to be replaced anyway.
Just re-enforces what was talked about above though.....glad I wasnt the one flying it when it 'broke'.
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Oh and remember that most Artificial Horizons have a gimble lock, so try to make a barrel roll (or any aerobatic maneouver for that matter) and they'll stick a nice NO OP over it.
Daniel
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Well, since nobody else has started it, I will.....
Odds are now set at 3 to 1 that Mia makes it through his first 100 hours.....
Betting window is open...
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Originally posted by Stringer
Well, since nobody else has started it, I will.....
Odds are now set at 3 to 1 that Mia makes it through his first 100 hours.....
Betting window is open...
How bout 2:1 on a wheels up landin in an Arrow, after successfully doin a barrel roll in it :)
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Originally posted by brendo
Hi Paul, nice to see you around here.
Guys, rememeber that someone has to fly the plane after you. You should place THEIR life at risk.
BTW Retnuh's plane went down last weekend. Engine stuffed, forced landing, they had to disassemble it to get it back to the hanger. No injuries/damage other than the engine, which was going to be replaced anyway.
Just re-enforces what was talked about above though.....glad I wasnt the one flying it when it 'broke'.
Glad no one was hurt Brendan. Gonna have to ring the big fella I think, see how things are. Cheers mate.
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Originally posted by baders
Frustrated..........yep, misguided...............no.
As a long time pilot i've seen a few cowboys that thought they were bullet proof. Quite a few come unstuck at some stage..............sadly, taking other people with them :(
Get a clue, read the PA 28 Pilots Operating Manual. Its not something you scribble in when you can't find any paper on board ;)
I would second that. Most of the pilots I knew who got killed had it coming for a long time. The fact that everyone around them knew it would happen to them one day changed nothing. To be fair to m1a389 he at least asked first.
My answer is like the others, don't do it in the PA28. You will probably die. Ten years from now with hundreds of aerobatic hours under your belt you could probably do it in a Warrior maintaining 1g while pouring a cup of coffee like Bob Hoover. Until then get some professional aerobatic instruction in an aircraft certified for aerobatics. I flew in a Pitts some time ago. It really is the most fun you can have with your clothes on! But it was also painful and disorientating.
I once flew aerobatics with a guy who was a good stick in a non Aerobat 152. It was fun but in the end I feigned airsickness to make him stop as I feared he might rip the tail off and we end up at the bottom of smoking hole somewhere in rural West Tennessee. :eek: I also saw a 152 where where someone had actually cracked the spar. I hate to think how many g's were pulled to do that. Most likely he fell out of a roll and pulled like hell to recover.
I won't take odds on your fate for the first 100 hours. Usually pilots are safe enough until then. At 100 hours pilots have just enough experience to think they're experienced but not enough to realise they know nothing. My hairiest moments came around the 100 hour mark, including being grounded by the chief instructor for an infraction of the rules. :(
All pilots do stupid things with aeroplanes at some point in their lives. Most live to tell the tale. I personally knew 4 who didn't and watched as another augered in front of me.
Of all the aircraft I flew 7 crashed later, some fatally and mostly because the pilot did something stupid. 1 low flying engine failure, 2 stall spins, 2 runway flypasts gone wrong, 1 fuel exhaustion and 1 mid air with an RAF jet which to be fair was not his fault.
Quite a record really:eek:
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Originally posted by brendo
Hi Paul, nice to see you around here.
Guys, rememeber that someone has to fly the plane after you. You should place THEIR life at risk.
BTW Retnuh's plane went down last weekend. Engine stuffed, forced landing, they had to disassemble it to get it back to the hanger. No injuries/damage other than the engine, which was going to be replaced anyway.
Just re-enforces what was talked about above though.....glad I wasnt the one flying it when it 'broke'.
Thats a good point to.
Bader I came here cause I know theres alot of pilots who visit this board. I sure wasnt gonna ask my instructor, she would of slaped me:)
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I have known friends who have fallen out of a maneuver while doing simple aerobatics in aerobatic capable aircraft. They almost crashed, barely survived.
Doing aerobatics in a non-approved aircraft as a new pilot is amazingly foolish.
What the heck are you referring to as a "flip"?
dago
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Originally posted by mia389
Thats a good point to.
Bader I came here cause I know theres alot of pilots who visit this board. I sure wasnt gonna ask my instructor, she would of slaped me:)
I'm betting that no matter what it is you say to your instructor you get slapped nowadays.
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How bout 2:1 on a wheels up landin in an Arrow, after successfully doin a barrel roll in it
Nah, most Arrows have that stupid automatic gear extention that happens at a certain AS. Dumb idea but Im sure it saved more than a few props/belly skins.
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Might as well fly a hot air balloon if you have an aircraft that cant do a loop or roll.
On average, how much more does an aerobatic aircraft cost than a non-aerobatic (buying cost)?
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depends.
A single hole pitts you can pick up for $12,500.
You can buy a new Cessna Skylane for $300,000.
Anywhere in between....
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if you are a private pilot and you just want to do minor aerobatics your best bet is to build yourself a RV. I personally like the 6 and the 8 but for just aerobatics a RV4 would prolly be the best, due to the tandem design. Sure a RV8 is tandem but its a little bigger and heavier, although not by much. Besides RVs are just oh so fun to fly.