Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: SpitLead on June 25, 2001, 02:00:00 PM
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I normally distain discussions on "uber" airplanes but this time I just HAVE to put my 2 cents in. This plane is just way to incredible in the FM. It is the fastest airplane on the deck (with only the possible exception of the Tempest) bar none. Don't know HOW many times I've tried to outrun a La7 only to loose ground and many times I was in a Typhoon!! And yes, we were basically co-alt so there was no advantage to start to close the gap. It's just ridiculous. On the other side of the coin, I was stall fighting (yes, the horn was blaring) a La7 in a N1K (yes that other "uber" airplane) and I could NOT get a gun solution. Due to the high 'g' turn and deflection I never got a shot. I never could turn inside him to unload 'g's for a shot. This La7 was just hanging with me in the turns. So, here you've got the fastest airplane on the deck (where most fighting in AH occurs anyway) and it can stay in a turn with a N1k. Add to this the fantastic acceleration and the 3 cannons it is the ultimate "uber" ride. I say PERK the La7.
>>He he he, I knew this post would bring the "non-perk whiners" out of the closet
:D
[ 06-26-2001: Message edited by: SpitLead ]
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bring it on baby!!!
lol
The best thing about the LA7 is that only need one in the mission to keep all the nikis honest! Everyone else can fly manly german and american planes cause if one guy has an la7 then the nikis are in trouble....
Even if I dont get the kill the niki is dead cause some other assassin will spank him while he is stalling out trying to lead turn me. Or he will be on the deck trying to flee for his meatball winged life!!!
I have more trouble against spits though. The hispanos can still pull chunks off ya at 600 which is pretty far to seperate.
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Perk the La7 whiners!
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I dont know what is the criteria to perk the planes in AH. All we know that 75% AH air batles are low level ones, where La7 has no rival. If performance is a "key" to perk planes, well, obviously having perked the Ta152 and not the La7 has no sense to me.
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So what aircraft should be the fastest in the arena without being perked? Please let us know so that all that are faster can be perked more efficiently. Enough of this picking one target then moving to the next... it takes too damn long.
AKDejaVu
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Well said Mandoble. How many Ta152s has ANYONE seen lately?? I can't remember the last time I saw one. Not many fights happen at 25,000 feet.
The La7 has NO rival on the deck. You can't run from it and you can't turn with it unless you're in a Spit (or Zeke). At that, it's better than 95% of the other airplanes in the arena. I somehow find that hard to believe that this was the case in real life (I KNOW this is a sim but it's trying to get as close to reality as it can)
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Well, the only aircraft I feel safe against a LA7 on the deck is the N1K. Not sure how you were flying, but I’ve turned inside an LA7. Actually the LA7 was on my six, and after enough time, I was on his six. The LA7 does not handle near as well as the N1K at stall speeds, IMO. I have also had many a spit lead and out turn me.
Close in base defense = N1K
Mid range, far base defense (I have time for alt) = LA7
Does it need to be perked? NO, but neither did the Chog ;)
Zippatuh
[ 06-25-2001: Message edited by: Zippatuh ]
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AKDejaVu,
This has why I've avoided discussions about perking airplanes up to this point. Because, eventually they'll all end up being perked. Ya perk one plane and another one comes along to be perked. However, in this case, the FM of the La7 just seems way out of whack. At least with the Chog we all KNOW it's the cannons. Most airplanes have one advantage or another but the La7 seems to have it all. If you don't perk the La7 then tone down the FM. At least with N1Ks most airplanes can outrun them if you can't out turn them.
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First time I hear of La7 being a good turner... But then, if you turn in it, you deserve to die... In any case, 1vs1 I don't feel all that threatened in my Yak against most of the La7 drivers.
mx22
[ 06-25-2001: Message edited by: mx22 ]
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double post... sorry
[ 06-25-2001: Message edited by: mx22 ]
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If you don't perk the La7 then tone down the FM.
I can't believe you said that. What unrealistic numbers do you believe should be inserted?
The truth is, some aircraft is always going ot do something better. The K/D and % kills of the La-7 don't indicate a need for perking. It performs well, but its guns downright suck. You can get used to them, but they are some of the worst .20's in the game. You need a fast agile plane in order to get them within 200 yards of a plane.
I dunno... just seems that people have a plane get on their 6 in the MA... then come here and whine about how it shouldn't happen.
It gets old fast.
AKDejaVu
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Actually, I'm more inclined to believe that the CHog was perked because you couldn't fly a sortie without seeing one (of course, this was directly related to the Hispanos!) My point is that I don't really see that many more LA7s than other planes. I see more n1k2's and spits (mostly IX's) than anything. Still see quite a few Hogs, though split between the C and D models.
LA7 has a good K/D at the moment, over 1.2 (n1k2 and spit IX also have 1.0+ K/D). LA7 has ~8000, nik2 ~14500, spit IX ~10500 kills. CHog has ~8500 and DHog has ~10000. Out of the planes I listed, the LA7 trails all in terms of kill numbers.
I'm not arguing with how good the LA7 is, I'm just saying that it's not being overused because of it's "uber" status like the CHog was.
Now if HiTech and co. come out and say "we perked the CHog directly because of the Hispanos, not because the kill numbers it had were far beyond the 2nd closest plane" then I'm in agreement. Perk the LA7, the N1K2, and possibly the Spit IX too. If this isn't the case, and it was based off of usage numbers, don't perk any new planes, and lower the perk costs on the TA152, Tempest and Arado some. Just my opinion. :)
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Only Spits, nikkis or C202 (at some point also Yak9) can outturn the La7, so, yep, La7 is a GREAT turner. It is also the second if not the best climber at lo alt. And the best accelerator too. Has a more than respetable roll rate and great control at hi speeds. And, what could be a subjetice feeling, La7 is a "tank", really hard to destroy it. Even more, it can fly forever with engine damaged (not stopped). What more can you ask for a plane??? oh! yeah! hispanos ;)
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Originally posted by SpitLead:
AKDejaVu,
Most airplanes have one advantage or another but the La7 seems to have it all.
La7's gunz are "it all" LMAO!!!!
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While in a Yak, I fear not the La.
Westy
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I don't know which Yak9 you flying, but the one I'm in can sure turn inside of La7. :cool: Now to the list of planes that can turn inside of La you should add Seafire and Zeke. What about Ki61? I've never flown it in MA so don't know, but in general Japanese planes turn good so I assume it can turn with La7 too. What about early 109s (f4 and possible g2)? So as you see there are quiet a lot of planes that can turn with la7. In addition to that, la7s perfomance diminishes rather rapidly above 10k (it's wep is usefull only upto 8k btw). So overall it's a good plane, but far from being way too superior to others. Personally, I fly it from time to time, but still prefer Yak to it in most of the situations.
mx22
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Yup
Yaks BAAAD
Nikis GOOOD
I have real trouble with yaks.
Spit Vbs can be bad too cause their loops are so tight and they can shoot out of the top of them to about 600 yard and ping ya.
People are going to have to pry themselves out of the nikis and ponys and hogs if they want to see how vulnerable a LA7 is. Even P38s put up better fights then Nikis. (course they are usually using good pre merge ACM and that makes the diff.)
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if i flew the La7 i would never get shot down
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I would like to see several more of the current planes added to the perk plane list myself. I really have no desire to fly the TA152, or the Tempest for that matter, even though it is really a killer. The problem is that it seems to be the only killer perk plane, therefore it is the hunted perk plane. I'd like to see these planes added to the perk list at a similar price to the Hawg-C:
LA-7
N1K-2
190D9
P51-d
109G10 (yes, even the 109G10)
Give or take a few planes...
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Don't stop there Blair!
Let's sing a few verses of "Perk 'em all!"
;)
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I don't think those planes would be unrealistic perk planes considering the current plane set. I have a desire to fly a 109G10, and would burn the perk points necassary to fly it. The planes that are in the perk list now just don't seem to be enough.
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I agree with that list HB as long as they are low cost perkies...
maybe 7-12 or so...
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I'll go back to my original statement when the C-hawg witchhunt was on.
Take the top ten planes for each tour, perk em. Set them at a slideing scale so that the #10 plane costs only a couple perks, and the # 1 plane costs 50 (at most) perks. (25 would be better IMO)
The biggest problem with the La-7 isn't that it's a killer like the C-hawg. Problem is it's an escape artist!
Catch me if you can guys!
;)
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Hmmm....
I want to ponder this over a good bellybutton scratching.
<scratches ass>
Yeah, this is the most rediculous and asinine discussion ever... well with the exception of RAM's "Wrong guy for wrong community" thread, oh and that Chog perking incident.
Don't stop now ya'll, I hear the Zero is whooping some bellybutton against most planes when flown right... perk it too!
EDIT: For such a lethal plane that does everything well, you are sure having a helluva hard time in it SpitLead...
Tour 17: spitlead has 11 kills and has been killed 15 times in the La-7.
-SW
[ 06-25-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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Ok, lets go, my EXPENSIVE (all above Ta152) perk plane list:
1 - Yak9U
2 - La7
3 - SpitIX (over nikki cause hispanos)
4 - Nikki
All the above excels in, at least, four of the next five categories: top speed (lo/med/alt), climb, fast speed control, weapons and turning.
Perk the P51? why? it only can run (average turner but poor acceleration). Same aplicable to D9 (can run, but cant turn, poor puch power and gunnery) and 109G10 (can run but cant move when running).
For those of you thinking La7 is good only up to 10k, you are really really wrong, La7 is more than a capable fighter up to 20k.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
3 - SpitIX (over nikki cause hispanos)
LMFAO!!!
That was funny... Hey Funked... I think they're lobbying for your 1942 Spitfire to get perked!!!
LMAO!!!
IT KILLS ME... PERK THE BASTID!!!!
-SW
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SWulfe, as usual, I'll do a dedicated explanation for you:
In this kind of arcadish (sometimes called quake) arena, SpitIX has and edge over most of the planes.
This is not an organized air war, this is a furball oriented MA.
Having something similar to the real war, perking Ta152 would be perfectly justified, but not here.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
I dont know what is the criteria to perk the planes in AH. All we know that 75% AH air batles are low level ones, where La7 has no rival. If performance is a "key" to perk planes, well, obviously having perked the Ta152 and not the La7 has no sense to me.
As stated in other threads, the LA-7 is a deadly plane....just not always deadly to the other guy. It turns well...but not as well and spit or zero. Any advantage in turning it has will quickly disapear in a turnfight, as it has lousey low speed handling, and departs like an undecided water buffalo.
Its fast down low, but not much more so than other fast planes, and it just plain sucks all around above 15K, and is unremarkable at 10k. This makes bomber interception very unlikely, and means the LA-7 cannot play the hang high at 20k game.
Its real weakness is its guns. It has a small ammo supply that cant hit crap past a distance of over 400 if you have to calculate any kind of lead.
Yea the LA-7 can be a good plane...but its no better than many others overall.
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This thread is bound to win an award at the con for the "most incredibly stupid statements used in a perking thread".
Now... you guys are real close to making me post the "Perk 'em all song" one more time.
Please don't make me do it......
:D
[.wav file] Police loudspeaker..
TOAD! Step AWAY from the keyboard and no one gets hurt! PUT IT DOWN![/.wav file]
[ 06-25-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
In this kind of arcadish (sometimes called quake) arena, SpitIX has and edge over most of the planes.
I'll do the likewish dedicated explanation for you.
It's not fast, a 190A5 can run it on the deck or at altitude.
If it dives after you, most planes can roll away from it and use that as their escape.
It can turn well, but bleeds energy just like the rest of them. Rope-a-dopes are a spit killer every time.
It's not by any means the fastest or even close to the fastest. It's mediocre in the speed aspect.
In a furball oriented MA, it's not about who can turn the fastest, who can roll the fastest, who holds all the cards, or who holds none.
It's about using what you were born with, your brain, to figure out strengths vs weaknesses and other trivial information and data for you to beat your opponent.
This is air-combat, not some g'damned kindergartner play ground where everything has to be "fair" so no one takes their lack of two balls and goes home.
Get real, if I didn't want a challenge I wouldn't play this game.
-SW
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Perk the Nipples :D
I love BOTs (Big o TTs) :eek:
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Originally posted by Citabria:
if i flew the La7 i would never get shot down
Cit if you flew a garbage bag with wings you wouldn't get shot down.
:D
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roar double post, sorry
[ 06-26-2001: Message edited by: Octavius ]
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Ok, lets go, my EXPENSIVE (all above Ta152) perk plane list:
1 - Yak9U
2 - La7
3 - SpitIX (over nikki cause hispanos)
4 - Nikki
All the above excels in, at least, four of the next five categories: top speed (lo/med/alt), climb, fast speed control, weapons and turning.
Perk the P51? why? it only can run (average turner but poor acceleration). Same aplicable to D9 (can run, but cant turn, poor puch power and gunnery) and 109G10 (can run but cant move when running).
For those of you thinking La7 is good only up to 10k, you are really really wrong, La7 is more than a capable fighter up to 20k.
I'm sorry to say that but it looks like you are loosing common sense and self control.
P51 G10 and D9 could be perked not because of their capability but because they can dictate the fight and it's half the victory.
PS you forgot to perk the Typhoon 4 hispanos !!! and run like hell at low level.
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straffo, you are right, lately I'm loosing any kind of self control, mostly courtesy of Wulfe ;)
About faster planes dictating fights, well, if you only consider the horizontal plane, ok, but if you see the the vertical plane as a valid one you'll find you are wrong. Just imagine a P51 and a SpitIX, separation 5000 yards, both same alt, same speed and HO.
The P51 can "dictate" the fight diving and speeding up while the SpitIX WILL DICTATE the fight climbing (Spit outclimbs any kind of P51). Now tell me what can do the P51 against the Spit except fleeing. P51 will be simply unable to catch the spit in the vertical while the spit will be unable to catch the P51 in the horizontal (after a dive).
Wulfe, I suppose we both are talking about AH Spit IX, faster than 190A5/A8/F8 at med and hi alts. SpitIX outclimbs them all at any alt, outturns them all, outgun them all, and outdives them at the initial stages of a dive. Also, starting from same speed, SpitIX outzooms any 190 (D9 included).
SpitIX (WEP OFF) has better performance than any Luftwaffe plane (WEP OFF also). Using WEP, only G10 and D9 have an edge over spit in horizontal top speed and substained climb, but WEP does not still forever.
Sincerelly, if you think SpitIX is a slow plane, you are wrong, unless you talk only about sea level runs. And about SpitIX loosing E like any other plane... ...well... no comments.
The fact that most of the spits are flown the wrong way does not mean Spit is a poor fighter (same for N1K2J).
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Someone seriously put a 1943 plane on a perk list??
Cobra
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You know, I've never had problems with escaping a SpitIX in a 190A5.
So if you are going to sit there and tell me that it needs to be perked because it does all of those things better than you can get your plane to do it, then I'm going to say that you've completely lost your mind and your ability to compete in this arena.
Maybe it's time for you to move on, maybe it's time for you to jump out of those LuftWaffle planes and give the SpitIX a shot for a tour so you can better understand it's strenghts and weaknesses.
SpitIXs prove to be nothing more than a nuisance to me, I was being outrun by 190A5s last night in the SpitIX at sea level... so don't gimme that schviel "it'll outrun anything at low alt"
Purely BS, you've completely lost it and gone overboard.
This is getting beyond weak and annoying, you guys need to give it a rest and learn the plane's strengths and weaknesses vs what you fly... until then I'm going to keep on coming back and throwing it in your face.
-SW
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Sincerelly, if you think SpitIX is a slow plane, you are wrong, unless you talk only about sea level runs. And about SpitIX loosing E like any other plane... ...well... no comments.
A plane being 2 mph faster at 20k means absolutely nothing in AH. Nobody travels level at 20k and waits for a plane to catch him. Sea level is all that matters.
The spit IX is a middle of the road plane for top speed. It is a pretty good turner. It has decent guns. But it is an average plane. I've never seen a spit that I couldn't extend from.
The planes that I see being able to dictate fights are P-51s, Doras, G-10s, Perkies, La-7s and N1Ks. All of them are quite killable, but all of them have the ability to escape. Most of them do it on the deck, except for the G-10 wich does it in the climb. I seriously doubt that any of these planes has a k/d of less than 1 against a spit of any type.
AKDejaVu
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Perk the spit...thats funny.
Top of the list for the next perk plane is the dora.
:)
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
This is not an organized air war, this is a furball oriented MA.
Well ... this is the definition of the MA : Furbal player mixed with Strat player and lot of sub-variants :)
We have events for a closer simulation of reality.
And about what SpitLead said : why should we perk a plane when it's just a problem of bad SA/ACM ?
Frankly I've switched to the P51 from tiffy since 2 weeks and the LA7 is a target like other I just don't use the 51 like the Tiffy as obviouly it would fail.
And I still don't die because of my opponent UBER plane but because I love putting myself in deep "poo poo" (with great success :D) even knowing it's stupid ... I'm a furball dweeb .
I think your emphasis on EXPENSIVE is wrong and you can add the D9 and G10 to the list provided they are flown the right way.
Just imagine a P51 and a SpitIX, separation 5000 yards, both same alt, same speed and HO.
The P51 can "dictate" the fight diving and speeding up while the SpitIX WILL DICTATE the fight climbing (Spit outclimbs any kind of P51). Now tell me what can do the P51 against the Spit except fleeing. P51 will be simply unable to catch the spit in the vertical while the spit will be unable to catch the P51 in the horizontal (after a dive).
In this case I will carefully avoid any fire solution for the spit and wait until he run out of fuel :D
The fact that most of the spits are flown the wrong way does not mean Spit is a poor fighter (same for N1K2J).
You got it right !
Both are great fighter nothing wrong.
After lot of post we can go to the final conclusion : It's not the plane it's the pilot ;) muahaha :D
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The La7 outturns a N1K2? LOL! you gotta be kidding, delusional, or on really good drugs.
Go do a sustained turn test for these planes and then compare them. The La7 is not a good turner. Good instantaneous turns at speeds, but it bleeds E like a stuck pig. In fact its sustained turn rates are similar to planes like the P-51.
Sustained turn test: take an aircraft up to about 5k, and get it to its sustained turning speed (around 180mph for most planes, but a good place to start) then start a stopwatch and do a 360 degree turn, without gaining or lossing any altitude. Divide 360/# of secs, to get degree's per second. You will quickly see that the La7 is not a turn fighter in the least. Oh and film your tests if you are gonna use the test as proof on the BBS.
Any Spit, N1K2, Zeke, Maachi, early 109's Ki61, all the turning planes will eat a La7 alive in a turn fight.
Yes the La7 can escape at will on the deck because of its good acceleration and SL speed. But there will always be a "fastest" plane out there that can do it.
Perk the La7? Let me guess, you just got toasted by a La7 in the arena. :)
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lol. What Toad said about 5 or 6 posts up. :)
Westy
[ 06-26-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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Just wait till spit 14 shows...
If you're in a dora and spit is discating a fight for you, then you really screwed up...
Speed wise, all 190s will outrun spit at all alts up to 20k no problem. Over 20k dora will smoke it.
Climbwise, last i checked 190A5 climbs better as per HTC charts ( which in itself is rather curious, not that 190s were ever known for their climb )
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straffo, I used the word EXPENSIVE because Ta152 is also expensive and, IMO, any plane in my list is much more competent in our arena than the Ta.
Wulfe, conclusions based on things like "yersterday my spit was outrunned by a 190A5 at lo level, so 190A5 is faster than spit" are really funny. Things like fuel load, ammo load, etc also count here, you know?
If you really want to throw to my face my comments, do it with facts, not with the weakest experience comments, lets go to the TA and do some comparative tests.
I insist, I dont know witch is the HTC criteria to perk the planes. year? usage? top speed? overal performance? But a lot of people are asking to perk, for example, the nikki and I cant find any real advantage of the nikki over the SpitIX, can you?
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There are several advantages the N1K2 has over the SpitIX, but that's niether here nor there because I do NOT think EITHER should be perked at all!!!
I'm not doing a "well yesterday I outflew it, but today I can't".. I'm saying "Yesterday I outflew it, today I will outfly it, and tommorrow I will be outflying it!"
Don't jump on the bandwagon just for the sake of being on the bandwagon.
-SW
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Toad was spot on.
'FM should be toned down'
'Can't have been that way in RL'
I paraphrase, of course.
This thread should called - 'How to lose an argument within 3 posts of starting'. :D
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I just looked @ the kill to death ratio in the scores section. The stats??
F4U-C: 2.4147 kills/deaths
Fw-190 D-9: 1.4702 kills/deaths--the best non-perked plane!
La-7: 1.2706 kills/deaths
Ta-152 H-1: 2.2637 kills/deaths
Tempest: 3.6139 kills/deaths
N1K2-J: 1.2180 kills/deaths
I see no reason why the la-7 should be perked; these stats show that is beatable and is not the best plane!
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LOL Tards! :D
Perk 'em All.
Rolling Perk Set!!!
[ 06-26-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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Well, Wulfe, it seems you are not available to do some TA test. No problem, I did them for you:
The test:
190A8 4x20, 190F8 2x20, 190A5 4x20, SpitIX 2x20 + 2x50.
All 75% fuel + DT.
Tests were done climbing to the test alt (no wep), droping the DT and full power and then WEP ON until 30 secs with no speed neddle movements.
5k:
190A5 -> 330 mph
190A8 -> 325 mph
190F8 -> 325 mph
SpitIX -> 320 mph
10k:
190A5 -> 305 mph
190A8 -> 305 mph
190F8 -> 302 mph
SpitIX -> 318 mph
higher that 10k = more advantage for the spit.
190A/F have a minimal edge only up to 5k (more or less). So, the conclusion is that 190A5 (the fastest at 5k) is a faster plane than SpitIX... ...LOL, better luck with next absurd assumption mate.
Hey, and, at least for me, there are more than a single plane of motion. SpitIX is faster than any 190A/F at any alt in the vertical.
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SWulfe,
To respond to your pulling my kill stats, most of my being killed in a La7 is due to being vulched. Since it has the best acceleration and can get off the runway quicker than snot that is my plane of choice when my field is under attack. I just choose to fly other airplanes and don't spend a lot of time in the La7.
Ding,
Kill/Death ratios of various airplanes barely mean squat. There are numerous factors which come into play. A lot of it is who's flying the airplanes. Most of the Tempest guys are good pilots with lots of perks I'd expect. Same is true for Ta152s and would probably guess most of their kills are against BUFFS anyway. I'd say most the higher K/D ratio of perk airplane kills are due to a higher percentage of better pilots flying them.
I'll be the first one to admit the La7 guns really suck. Low ammo loadout and poor range are it's achilles heel. However, with the FM the way it is you can overcome that fault. IMHO, the La7 just does too many things too well in the FM and does not reflect my PERCEPTION of what that airplane did in real life. And NO, I don't have the real life test data or anything to back this up. I'm not saying it should be perked 70 points, maybe closer to 8 like the CHog. Either that, or recheck the FM cause it just seems outta whack.
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Hey Mandoble, I noted in your profile that you are a "Systems Analist"..interesting!
I'm a Systems Analyst but I'd like to know whats different from an "Analist" hehe!
<S>
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First of all, I'm at work so I can't do anything.
Second of all, I don't know how you did those tests. Was that max speed or was that when you felt like recording the speeds?
Max speed is when the plane no longer accelerates faster.
I outrun SpitIXs all the time in the 190A5, so I think your data is wrong.
You won't convince me the SpitIX deserves perking anyway.. that's more absurd than anything I've heard.
-SW
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Okay, I give up. This thread is simply a waste of my time to read and reply to.
HTC won't perk the La7 or the SpitIX, so my defending that the La7 or SpitIX don't need to be perked isn't really needed either.
Perking is an excuse for inability to counter what you haven't taken the time to intelligently understand.
-SW
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so faster means it should be perked?
P51's should be perked because they dictate the fight? the pony just barely has a 1 K/D. I think a plane that "dictates" the fight would have a much higher K/D ratio. So it must be the pilots not flying it that keeps the K/D around 1? 3 of the 4 190's have better K/D. You're not saying LW pilots are better than Pony pilots are you??? ;)
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
Perking is an excuse for inability to counter what you haven't taken the time to intelligently understand.
-SW
or because you're sick of seeing the pretty blue plane WITHOUT the yellow ring around the cowling! ;)
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Or 4 cannons giving you a case of hemorhoids the likes you have never experienced and would hope to never encounter! <G>
-SW
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Or because you're sick of complaining of dying to "HO dweebs with a severe lack of ACM"! (if they have no ACM, shouldn't those with fair to good ACM chew 'em up??)
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Or because you're sick of complaining about seeing so many of the same plane (read: dying to the same plane)
-SW
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SWulfe, My data is not wrog, I repeated the tests two times per plane. The max speed was "marked" when no more speed gain was achieven in 30 seconds. that is, with the speed indicator static for 30 seconds (max power wep on).
It is independent of what you or me "feel" when fighting against or in spits. SpitIX is faster than any 190A/F (except up 5k), and that is a fact.
I still have not done acceleration tests, but the initial feeling in my top speed tests is that SpitIX also outaccelerates any 190A/F.
And now some final words about perking Spit or any other plane.
We have an arena, we have a perk system and we have a score system. Any other thing aside these is just subjetive and personal feelings about how to "feel" and play the game.
For fighters, K/D K/S K/T and HPc are the factors that count. Spit has hispanos, few spent ammo = kills, easy to aim with so "perfect" bullet trajectory also. Add the super menouverability and you'll have exceptional K/T K/S and HPc. Obviously, if you fly spit and go low where you have no more speed advantage over most of the planes, you'll need to fight your RTB, so, perhaps your K/D will suffer a bit.
With these parameters lets rate D9:
Exceptional speed, so, you'll be able to flee in most situations, that implies potential great K/D. But attack setup need time, and you cant turn with most of the planes, add horribly ballistic and weapon set, and you'll have a mediocre K/T K/S and HPc.
So, basically, what is the plane with more chances to be greatly rewarded by AH "automatic-reward" system? IMO the SpitIX with no doubt over 190D9.
And I insist, SpitIX seems a mediocre fighter because is widely bad flown, and because its "uberness" is a really bad point to learn a bit about aerial combat. But if I go with a 190A5 against myself in a SpitIX (co E), my SpitIX incarnation will win 100% of the fights with no doubt, that or a drawn (not counting HO kills). Even more, I flying 190D9 against myself flying SpitIX, it will be a draw 100% of the times.
In an arena with no icons, things would be really different, and D9 could be a serial killer, but not here.
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Stats say otherwise in respect to the 190D9. BUt of course, if the stats don't work for your side of the argument, then they must not be showing the whole picture!
-SW
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
Or because you're sick of complaining about seeing so many of the same plane (read: dying to the same plane)
-SW
I said it was because it didn't have the yellow ring around the cowling!!! ;)
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OK SWulfe, let me look at the stats...
Top 20 fighter pilots:
1 - BigUC (SpitIX)
2 - Citabria (P38L, F6F5 and F4U1C)
3 - Feed (F4U1D)
4 - F00bar (Zeke)
5 - Rraf (F4U1D, P47D11)
6 - Fariz (Yak9U, F4U1D)
7 - Blade (Spit IX)
8 - Hanzo (Zeke)
9 - Tukiyo (N1K2)
10 - Kiyota (La7, Seafire, Yak9U)
11 - rz (F6F5, N1K2)
12 - AKNimitz (F4U1C, N1K2, P47D11)
13 - Taki (N1K2)
14 - Bane (P51D) Congrats Bane!
15 - kanamaru (F4U1C, F4U1D)
16 - Khan (SpitIX)
17 - LegacyB4 (Ki61)
18 - Asmodan (SpitV, SpitIX)
19 - Acinonyx (190A8) Congrats w!
20 - Mitsu (Ki61)
None at top 20 uses 190D9 at all, stats are on my side.
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AND I SAY IT'S BECAUSE THEY WERE SICK OF DYING TO IT!!!!
(http://www.mpz.co.uk/cwm/otn/funny/1poke.gif)
-SW
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LOL! Whatever Mandoble, now you are just using whatever stats work for you.
There's other stats posted about that point to the D9 having the best K/D of the La7/N1K2 and SpitIX..
Hmmmmm!!!
-SW
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He he he, I knew this thread would stir the pot :D
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LOL! Um.. mandoble.. did you really look at anything other than position?
BigUC in SpitIX: 109:79 (of 300 kills) - his presence has to be some kind of bug since he is below 1:1 k/d, below 1 k/s, and below 7% gunnery. He doesn't have an acceptionally high score.
The fact that you have to resort to the "top pilots" to prove what pane is better pretty much speaks for itself. That list really doesn't have anything to do with the pilot. Everyone could go 300:20 in a P-38.. its the plane afterall.
How about this.. when the "Top 10 list" is generated for this tour, see how the K/D from the Spitfire's best compares to the LW's best.
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Spitlead - I'm interested in this 'PERCEPTION' you talk about in relation to the La-7 and it's historical performance. What are your sources, for instance?
The La-5FN was as good as any of its LW contemporaries, and the same can be said of the La-7.
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Swulfe, I'm not using whatever stats work for me, I enumerated you the factors that AH uses to reward the pilots with a good score pos. With all these factors, no one has been "rewarded" for flying 190D9. K/D is only one of these factors, and the only one where D9 can shine.
My conclusion: with the actual arena parameters and scoring system, SpitIX is a much more profitable plane than Dora.
And your argumentation is weaker and weaker every post.
AKDejaVu, I'm not proving what plane is better (IMO Dora is far better plane than SpitIX), I'm proving that SpitIX is better than D9 in the AH universe.
[ 06-26-2001: Message edited by: MANDOBLE ]
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The Spitfire Mk IX has 186 kills and has been killed 232 times against the Fw 190D-9.
What universe are you in?
AKDejaVu
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Dowding,
It's just a perception, I have no historical reference. I have neither the time nor inclination to do that research. However, if someone can bring historical data to this forum to validate the La7 FM then I will bow to that. I'm an aviation buff from way back and through the years I've heard diddly about the La7. It's all been the P-51 and Spitfire that "won the air war". If this airplane was as good in the FM in real life as it is in AH then I would think I would've heard more about it. Granted, it is a Russian airplane and we didn't hear a lot about it for years. AND, I know it's not the plane but the pilot in the plane that REALLY makes the difference which probably accounts for the Luftwaffe success on the Eastern front. At any rate, there you have it. My biggest point is that there are few airplanes that do nearly ALL things well. Usually, an airplane has several notable advantages in its FM while having several disadvanges in others (i.e. you can't have your cake and eat it too in airplane design, there's ALWAYS a trade off in design factors). The La7 as modeled in AH seems to be too good in speed, climb, acceleration, turning, diving etc. Granted, I recognize there are other airplanes in AH which will outperform the La7 in one area or another. My experience in AH is that it seems to outrun anything on the deck and can just about turn with a N1K (the oft maligned uber airplane (aka UFO). To me, that just seems out of whack.
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Mandoble,
Doing virtually the same test off-line, but with the fuel use set to 0 so as to maintain constant fuel weight, the Spit9 made 340/333 (wep/no wep) at 5k and 360/355 at 10k. I haven't done any FWs yet, but results for Spit9, La7, G-10, P-51D, and N1K2 will be up soon. Granted that most planes approach their top speeds very slowly so it is possible that no observable movement took place for a 30 sec period. My top speeds were taken after 5 minutes level flight and, in the case of the P-51, a little later because it still had observable increase in speed. Exact conditions were:
Fuel as close to 25 minutes duration as possible (P-51: 50%, La-7: 100%, G-10: 100%, N1K2-J: 50%, Spit9: 75%)
Fuel Use set to 0 (well, 0.001)
Combat Trim On
Auto Level On
Speed dropped to 150 TAS then accelerated with and without WEP (I'll have accel numbers posted, too)
Max speed taken after 5 minutes. Not sure how these will look in post, but here are numbers from Excel:
1k 5k 10k 15k 20k 25k 30k
G-10 362/331 387/356 400/375 418/383 440/406 430/415 418/403
La-7 387/369 400/381 400/400 395/395 406/406 398/398 362/362
N1K2-J 340/331 350/344 351/349 356/350 369/362 350/349 331/325
P-51D 370/351 378/374 400/394 400/399 415/402 428/425 422/412
Spit9 321/318 340/333 361/355 380/375 380/378 401/395 399/399
HaMmeR
Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Well, Wulfe, it seems you are not available to do some TA test. No problem, I did them for you:
The test:
190A8 4x20, 190F8 2x20, 190A5 4x20, SpitIX 2x20 + 2x50.
All 75% fuel + DT.
Tests were done climbing to the test alt (no wep), droping the DT and full power and then WEP ON until 30 secs with no speed neddle movements.
5k:
190A5 -> 330 mph
190A8 -> 325 mph
190F8 -> 325 mph
SpitIX -> 320 mph
10k:
190A5 -> 305 mph
190A8 -> 305 mph
190F8 -> 302 mph
SpitIX -> 318 mph
higher that 10k = more advantage for the spit.
190A/F have a minimal edge only up to 5k (more or less). So, the conclusion is that 190A5 (the fastest at 5k) is a faster plane than SpitIX... ...LOL, better luck with next absurd assumption mate.
Hey, and, at least for me, there are more than a single plane of motion. SpitIX is faster than any 190A/F at any alt in the vertical.
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AKDejaVu, do you really need some explanation??? REALLY?????
SpitIX is masively used, mostly by green pilots that dead over'n over (same with n1k2). D9 is not a so friendly plane, due this fact it is mainly used by pilots with some experience, harder to kill than most of spit rookies.
But there is an obvious thing, there are SpitIX real aces and 190D9 real aces with no doubt and with similar skill levels. Curiously, this arena and scoring system (OUR UNIVERSE) do not put a single 190D9 ace into the top 20 fighter pilots, perhaps even into the top 40. If you want to create a paralell universe where K/D is the only factor to rate a pilot, ok.
It seems that wulfe and you have the same problem understanding that K/D is only ONE of the factors, and not the most important.
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Gee, I can remember old threads where high K/D was trotted out as the main reason to perk the you-know-what. :)
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AKDejaVu, do you really need some explanation??? REALLY?????
SpitIX is masively used, mostly by green pilots that dead over'n over (same with n1k2). D9 is not a so friendly plane, due this fact it is mainly used by pilots with some experience, harder to kill than most of spit rookies.
I understand entirely Mandoble. When it comes to the Spitfire, its the plane that's uber.. with the dora its the pilot. Spitfires chase doras down all the time.. if it weren't for the outstanding abilities of Dora pilots, they'd have a K/D of less than one against the spitfires.
Of course, the fact that you fly LW iron in no way implies bias. :rolleyes:
AKDejaVu
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BTW.. here's a little stat from tour 14 when the dora was introduced. That's when everyone and their mother were giving it a try:
The Fw 190D-9 has 641 kills and has been killed 464 times against the Spitfire Mk IX.
Kinda blows that "LW Experten" theory out of the water. Fricking egomaniacs. :rolleyes:
BTW.. it had a K/D of 1.32 that first tour.. even with all those LW wannabes flying it.
AKDejaVu
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lol
ya but everyone else was flying the LA7..
which brings us back to the thread in question
PERK THE LA7
ITS WAAAAAAY UBER.
[ 06-26-2001: Message edited by: Pongo ]
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and YOU haven't given me ONE good reason to perk the SpitIX Mandoble. All of it has been nonsense LuftWhiner drivel so far!
-SW
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Well, Wulfe, it seems you are not available to do some TA test. No problem, I did them for you:
The test:
190A8 4x20, 190F8 2x20, 190A5 4x20, SpitIX 2x20 + 2x50.
All 75% fuel + DT.
Tests were done climbing to the test alt (no wep), droping the DT and full power and then WEP ON until 30 secs with no speed neddle movements.
5k:
190A5 -> 330 mph
190A8 -> 325 mph
190F8 -> 325 mph
SpitIX -> 320 mph
10k:
190A5 -> 305 mph
190A8 -> 305 mph
190F8 -> 302 mph
SpitIX -> 318 mph
higher that 10k = more advantage for the spit.
190A/F have a minimal edge only up to 5k (more or less). So, the conclusion is that 190A5 (the fastest at 5k) is a faster plane than SpitIX... ...LOL, better luck with next absurd assumption mate.
Hey, and, at least for me, there are more than a single plane of motion. SpitIX is faster than any 190A/F at any alt in the vertical.
Funny how you forgot to test the Dora .. since its so slow and inferior to spit, why don't you post its numbers too ?
One of those days HTC will make Spit IX LF/HL and Spit XIV. I got 100$ that we will have 90% of LW quit within a week.
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LOL, Ski!
I'm NOT taking that bet!
There'll be crying and wailing and gnashing of teeth. Sackcloth and ashes.
"But it's JUST NOT FAIR!!!!!!"
Quickly followed by chants of "Unperked 262! Unperked 262! Unperked 262! Unperked 262!"
:)
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Funny how you forgot to test the Dora .. since its so slow and inferior to spit, why don't you post its numbers too ?
Over 325 at 5k.
Here is an interesting test you can try in the safety of your own home:
Cruising at around 315 mph at 5k, dive down to the deck keeping it just under your terminal speed. Once you get to about 70 feet level off and kick in the wep. See what speed your plane settles on.
From my tests:
Spit IX: 328
Dora: 365
Of course, when you're on the deck, you always accelerate to the deck speed.. you never decelerate to it... right? I mean.. its not like you engaged at alt then dove for safety.
Yeah.. lets find the right numbers to prove the point and then insist that they are the only valid ones that count! Ignore the rest! We are LW! Resistance is futile!
AKDejaVu
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fdski...slap yourself. who are the luftwaffe you are talking about. There are maybe 1 or two players in the game left that your are talking about...
and you are whining about the Spit versions again shame on you.
Your gona have to find a new visible minority to abuse soon. Try to think of a catchy name for them...
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First, for those than cant or dont know how to read. I always said Dora is faster, and as far as I know, faster at any alt up to 25k (at least).
Second, for those than cant or dont know how to read. I did these test in response to Wulfe statement that 190A5 is a faster plane than SpitIX (yep, faster only near sea level).
Third, for those that cant understand or dont know how to understand. This is anything but an elitist post stating that 190 pilots are the best ones. When D9 was introduced, ALL 190 experts (months of 190A8/A5 usage) used it, that may explain its good scoring (only in K/D). We a rookie aproach a D9 and notices it cant turn, he comes back quickly to Spits, Nikkis or anything else.
Fourth, for those that cant understand or dont know how to understand. As I stated, Dora has an evident edge over SpitIX in survability, that is, potential K/D. BUT, K/D is only one of the factors AH uses to rank the pilots, AND NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT.
And five. AFAIK, lower ENY values put a plane closer to be perked than hi ENY values:
Spit ENY 16
N1K2 ENY 15
190D9 ENY 18
Sincerely, I'm almost sure it is not my english ...
I'm answering with data: tests, ranks, eny values. you are using only K/D as a "valid" argument ... ... who is the biased one?
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Oooo.. don't forget the F6F-5 has an ENY of 17. Yep.. that uberplane.
Of course, ENY has nothing to do with the fact that the spit and nik are overused. Nah... its purely on plane capability... just like the F6F-5.
And the A5 slowed at 342 after the same dive.. with more fuel. Still faster. Oh.. and the A5 managed to hit 580 in the dive and kept together. I was rather amazed at that feat... and was amazed that it didn't suffer from the same compression the Dora did at 570... that is it didn't roll at all and aileron control was responsive.
AKDejaVu
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Ill take that bet, i say sooner than a week 5 days at the most.
:)
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Originally posted by SpitLead:
It's all been the P-51 and Spitfire that "won the air war". If this airplane was as good in the FM in real life as it is in AH then I would think I would've heard more about it.
At the end of the war there was a mock dogfight between 2 pilot of 2 French squadron one equiped with Spitfire (Corse or Alsace don't recall) the other using Yak (Normandie-Nielmen).
Both squad with equaly trained vet guess which plane won ?
Pilot were swapped after 1 round guess which plane won this time ?
You answered Yak ?
YEAH we have a winner :)
If this airplane was as good in the FM in real life as it is in AH then I would think I would've heard more about it. Granted, it is a Russian airplane and we didn't hear a lot about it for years.
I've asked several time in the past to add the YAK-3U with VK107 as a perk if you are afraid of the La7 you will cry when it will come to AH :D
It's unknown to lot of "westerner" but it the ULTIMATE perk dogfight plane and under 15K co-alt it would eat all ... Tempest included
subliminal message : Yak-3 in NN color in AH :)
(http://www.kiwiaircraftimages.com/images/main/98_wanaka/WANYAK3M.JPG)
[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: straffo ]
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Ok, so, the standar way to rate a plane max speed is just diving it ...
And yep, ENY should do a lot with plane overusage, cause that Ta152H has ENY 8.
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Ok you Spit/Dora arguing dweebs go get your OWN stinking thread!! :p
Back to the topic at hand.
Spitlead wrote:
It's just a perception, I have no historical reference.
Thats the problem. Much of what your claiming about the abilities of the La7 are just your perceptions, and are not fact.
If you would go do some testing on the aircraft you would see for instance that the La7 is a very mediocre turner, with relatively poor low speed handling. Much like the Yak-9U and P-51.
However, if someone can bring historical data to this forum to validate the La7 FM then I will bow to that.
Well, I'm at work or I would post data to till your sick of reading it ;) But the short of the answer is simply "Yes, the La7 could do what it does in AH". If anything, all the Soviet aircraft in AH have been produced with the worst performing flight test data available. So if anything, the La7 could potentially have been even better.
It's all been the P-51 and Spitfire that "won the air war". If this airplane was as good in the FM in real life as it is in AH then I would think I would've heard more about it.
Its called Propaganda and a little issue referred too as the "Cold War" ;)
My biggest point is that there are few airplanes that do nearly ALL things well. Usually, an airplane has several notable advantages in its FM while having several disadvanges in others (i.e. you can't have your cake and eat it too in airplane design, there's ALWAYS a trade off in design factors).
You are correct!! And the La7 conforms to that design theory quite well.
Advantages: Climb, Acceleration, Speed below 5k. High speed handling, and instantaneous turns.
These combine to make a very effective E fighter at the low altitudes seen in "Main Arena" combat like in AH.
Disadvantages: Very poor performance at altitude (above 10k, and its very mediocre), Average to Poor sustained turn rates, Poor low speed handling, Poor guns, Small Ammo loadout, very short range, and almost no Air to Ground attack capabiity.
The La7 as modeled in AH seems to be too good in speed, climb, acceleration, turning, diving etc.
Why? Take a very small, relatively light airframe and attach a huge radial engine too it. Giving you a high power to weight ratio. Simple design concept.
My experience in AH is that it seems to outrun anything on the deck and can just about turn with a N1K (the oft maligned uber airplane (aka UFO). To me, that just seems out of whack.
No arguements on the speed, although a Typhoon and the Dora are both very close and it all depends on initial relative energy states and altitude.
But on the turning. Again I say, prove it. :) To show you how confident I am, if your right, I will arrange to have your next month of Aces High paid free of charge.
Needless to say, I'm a fan of the late war Soviet Fighters. And given the type of fight they were designed for (which is quite similar to our arena combat) they are very very good. :)
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Originally posted by SpitLead:
[QB]Dowding,
I agree...and I am a La 7 fan.... I can find no data to suggest that the La7 was faster than the FW D9 (at any alt)and some data to show it was comparable (maybe marginally faster) in speed to the fastest of the Fw190 A series.
(note I discuss speed not acceleration)
We do not have a 109K in AH to compare it with.
Actually I believe the La 7 was more stable at lower speeds than presently modeled in AH. But had violent departure due to the sharpening of the lift/stall curve via its slats.
The la5FN was, it seems, only just upto the capabilities of its contempory the 109G6 but exceeded those of the 109G2.(very generalised statement)
Its a pity the perking system cannot differentiate between the 3 gun and 2 gun La7. The 3 gun is definately an end of war plane (Febraury 45 onward) it rarely carried 150 per gun (more often 130)I could rationalise perking the 3 gun on historical grounds. Re game play the La 7 is a sort of "spoiler" but it does not seem to be the plane of choice of our aces.
Tilt
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actually... the reason that fighter planes are used more than d9's or even P51's is quite simple... While it is very easy to survive and get good K/D ratios in the D9 and P51... They are boring... All LW planes are boring. Most people don't like to be bored. Most people like to fly the fun planes and not the one trick ponies.
Giving six calls to planes about to be jumped by such one trick ponies is quite fun. People who fly these planes in the arena have emotional problems. why not just fly a bomber?
lazs
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actually... the reason that fighter planes are used more than d9's or even P51's is quite simple... While it is very easy to survive and get good K/D ratios in the D9 and P51... They are boring... All LW planes are boring. Most people don't like to be bored. Most people like to fly the fun planes and not the one trick ponies.
Not too far off the mark. Except that the pony is one of the more prolific planes in the arena. Think that has more to do with visual/nationalistic appeal than anything else. They really are one trick ponies.
AKDejaVu
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Here ya go Spitlead. Some real facts ;). The quotes in bold are taken from 'La5/7 in Action', the veracity of the information therein is regarded as accurate. It relates to the production La-7 not some prototype.
"The standard production La-7 had a top speed of...367 mph at sea level."
Take a look at the chart showing the speed versus altitude for the Aces High La-7; you'll see the black line intersects the speed axis at... about 367 mph! Fancy that!
"At 20,000ft the the La-7 had a top speed of 407mph...
Again, take a look at the aforementioned graph. At 20,000 ft the La-7 has a speed of... about 410 mph. Amazing!
OK, that's the unbelievable, unrealistic high speed dealt with ;). Now let's look at climb rate:
"The climb rate was greatly improved [compared to the La-5FN]. The La-7 easily outclimbed the Fw 190 A-8 up to 16,404 feet. The La-7 reached this altitude in 4.95 minutes, while the Fw 190 A-8 required six minutes."
Hmmm... check the AH La-7 and you'll find it is remarkably close to this value.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/charts/la7speed.gif)
I'm sure Verm has much more info to give you. :)
BTW, those that flew the La-7 positively mullahed the LW in the closing years of the war. Between 15 September and 15 October 1944 the 63rd Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment scored 55 victories (52 FW190s and 3 109s) for the loss of only four La-7s. Perhaps pilot quality counted to some degree, but the fact remains that the la-7 was a superb fighter.
[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: Dowding ]
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Dowding, Vermillion... touche ;)
Let's assume for the moment that the La7 is in fact modeled correctly. Several of your points in fact then make my case (IMHO).
Vermillion mentions that it's speed is close to the Tyhpoon and D9. These are 2 of the fastest airplanes in the arena and the Tyhpoon is noted for it's speed on the deck yet even with comparable 'e' states I've seen a La7 catch a Typhoon. The D9 is a screamer for speed yet again I've seen a La7, on the deck, catch a D9. Again, MOST fights happen in the MA below 10K. That's a fact.
Dowding, you mention how the La7 mauled the LW in the fall of 1944. There you go. Agreed, some of this fact might be due to pilot skill dilution on the part of the LW. However, you said yourself it's a superb fighter, even besting the best LW airplanes. If we agree that it is modeled correctly and it really IS this good of an airplane then it should be perked. Hands down it'll beat a Ta152 yet it's perked 70 points and can take on a CHog any day of the week and it too is perked. ;)
So considering the advantages of the airplane and how those advantages specifically play into combat in the MA, again I say perk the La7 if only at the cost of 8 pts.
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I see what you are saying, but I was referring to the fact you disputed the FMs validity.
It is a superb plane - but surely so is the Dora, G-10 even the 202 in right hands. ;)
You mention MA combat. I maintain that the La-7 is in no way dominant in the arena - it is not used as much as the spit or niki, and it's stats show it is far from imbalancing. It is not another F4U. If it ever came to the point where it had 20%+ of kill in the MA and you couldn't move for seeing them, I'd agree with perking it.
But I just can't see the justification for solely perking it while leaving the Dora, G-10 and other late war planes alone.
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Enough said. Cheers Dowding and Vermillion and all the rest who responded with competent remarks. There's no more to be said (IMHO). Both sides of the argument have been covered ad nauseam
SpitLead out :)
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Originally posted by Dowding:
Here ya go Spitlead. Some real facts ;). Between 15 September and 15 October 1944 the 63rd Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment scored 55 victories (52 FW190s and 3 109s) for the loss of only four La-7s. Perhaps pilot quality counted to some degree, [ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: Dowding ]
For more info on this period of the 169 IAP (renamed 63 GIAP in March 43) and other La 7 regiment combat histories (176 GIAP, 4GIAP KBF, 9GIAP, 2GIAP, 111GIAP, 171 GIAP, 31 GIAP) I can highly reccommend the book
Lavockin La-7 by Milos Vestsik.
ISBN 80-902238-7-7
Its a translation from the original czech book of the same name with the czech text still carried.
For coal eaters its easily available from Midland counties books (01455233747) at only £9.95. You will quickly find that "fighters in action" (which I also have) begins to gather dust once you have read this.
Tilt
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When the end comes to this old world "the rats will cry and the rest will curl up."
will he take the time sort your ashes from mine.?
Will i win the lottery?
LaVa
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Spitlead :)
Its all about acceleration and initial E states! I won't argue that you have seen La7's catch Typhoons or Dora's. I've also seen N1K2's catch P-51s. Does that mean the N1K2 is faster? Of course not.
There will always be an aircraft that is "best" in some category. The La7 is the fastest on the deck, but only on the deck.
The Key to beating a La7 is don't fight its fight. Don't get down below 5k alt, and slow.
Sorry I didn't get to post that data for you last night, but I had to prepare to go out of town for my job. But as Dowding has stated, the La7 in AH matchs the best data I have seen for production La7's.
For an excellent book on Soviet Fighters, I would reccommend.
Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War : Single-Engined Fighters
by Yefim Gordon, Dmitri Khazanov
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1857800834/qid=993729243/sr=1-1/ref=sc_b_1/107-9745368-7826915 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1857800834/qid=993729243/sr=1-1/ref=sc_b_1/107-9745368-7826915)
An excellent resource with some very good data in it.
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Spitlead :)
But as Dowding has stated, the La7 in AH matchs the best data I have seen for production La7's.
Agreed infact Dowding's curve shows the AH La7 to be slower (above 10k) than early 45 production variants with the Ash 82 FNV engine.
(http://www.i-way.co.uk/~benier1/la7.gif)
I have over drawn Dowdings AH curves with the ones for this AC. The only reason I can think of on HTC's behalf is that they have modelled the older Ash82 FN engine (which did not have the better "higher" alt performance of the V varient).
Unfortunately the 3 gun version always had the V variant engine.
Tilt
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But as Dowding has stated, the La7 in AH matchs the best data I have seen for production La7's
By "best data", do you mean most accurate or highest numbers? I seem to remember a thread about the La-7 actually being undermodeled in the Aircraft forum some time ago<a my data vs your data discussion>.. though that may have been the La-5.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
By "best data", do you mean most accurate or highest numbers? AKDejaVu
Good point. I have now made the plot for air craft La 7 45213276 via spread sheet and its here
(http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/la7_v_alt.gif)
For sure... of the 6 tests I have figures (of varying detail) of they are each slightly different and show an improvement from August 44 thru to May 45 with performance getting better (generally). So some one has to choose.
for top speeds at the following altitudes (non wep km/hour TAS)
floor/3000m/5000m/6000m/climb time 5000m
la 7 45210150 Aug 44 582/647/651/674/5.1
la 7 45210203 Aug 44 555/634/627/652/4.95
la 7 45213276 Apr 45 580/654/651/677/4.65
la 7 38102663 May 45 579/645/641/661/5.25
63 was made at a different factory to the others and is the only 3 gun version. All tests started at fully loaded weights.
Tilt
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Sheesh Tilt do you have a job? How can you find the time to do this stuff ;)
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The perk system has a flaw.
The planes are perked from a historical frame of mind and not a furball/arena frame of mind.
Drex
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Drex, you have to admit though...
If you unleash the Tempest unperked on the arena.. it would be hell on us all...
-SW
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Double post-o-rama
-SW
[ 06-28-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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Drex,
You are right on. Basically, that's the point I'm trying to make. AH being a primarily furball low altitude arena, the La7 should be perked because of it's performance. I wasn't sure if the FM was accurate (see original post) but with data posted I think it's safe to assume it's modeled fairly accurately.
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Originally posted by SpitLead:
AH being a primarily furball low altitude arena, the La7 should be perked because of it's performance.
It seems we are getting to the point. What is more dangerous in a low level furball, a hispano armed hyper-agyle spit or the faster an less agyle La7?
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Yes it would be nasty, but let me say this not all historical variants/models fall into just those that did well in real wwII egagements. The Tempest has fantastic attributes that lend it self to doing very well in arena type battles(e-retention in a zoom, strong guns,great acceleration at low alts, and great manueverability in the 200-300mph range). Your right she should not be unleashed.
Drex
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Now we are advocatng perking planes because of performance?! Thought the criteria was numbers or arena dominance?
The La7 is the dominate low alt fighter just because it's fast? Are you serious?
How can we continue to argue this perk thing based upon performance in the MA? The La7 was not built to fight the SpitIX, for example. Of course it's faster. It (La7) was designed to fight B&Z LW aircraft.
If we are to perk aircraft based on performance, if I read some of these posts correctly, then perk the spit as well. Its overall performance is too good for the MA. It turns well, retains E well, carries a 20mm along with either the .303 or .50 MG and is just to balanced for the MA.
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Yes I agree that some late war weapons that could be perked should potentially not be... some should be though.
SpitXIV (yikes!)
Ki84 (imagine a N1K2... but better)
La7 (I guess.. I mean we DO have the La5, and throwing a LaGG3 in the equation would give a more early war model)
The list goes on for late war planes that could potentially be a menace... but there are *some* mid/late war planes that could be perked because of their abilities.
However, if you perk a SpitIX(for example) based on it's ability to "compete" in a "furball" arena then you pretty much smack yourself in a face for keeping the faster rides in the arena unperked.
IMO, there is no way to classify a plane as being a "best" for "this type" of arena.
Okay, so the SpitIX can dive, has a *DECENT* top speed, climb rate and a good turning ability. Just last night I upped ina P38, zoomed down, shot down 1 SpitIX, 1 IL2, and 1 B26 while diving through a 109, N1K2 and SpitIX. None of them caught me in 25 miles of running on the deck.
Basically what I'm saying is, perking some planes for their percieved abilities in the so-called Quake arena leads to you losing probably your favorite ride.
You perk all of the TnBers, and man... that's gonna be one boring arena. you perk all of the BnZers, It's going to be a quick action arena but if you enjoy flying a 190D9 or P38L or P51D- it's gonna cost ya.
I think Metallica said it best:
"Careful what you wish for, you may regret it.
Careful what you wish for, you just might get it."
-SW
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Superb information Tilt! And thanks for the tip on the book, mate. I'm going to look into it. :)
BTW, the graph I posted is HTC's own graph - it isn't actually mine. You'll find it in the planes part of the 'game overview' section of the HTC website. There's also a chart for rate of climb versus altitude - do you have info on that aspect of the La-7 to compare?
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Agreed SW. You gave the response I was looking for. It would be down right stupid to perk the spit wouldn't it? IMHO, the same goes for the La7.
BTW, We do have the spitV after all :D
Perking the La7 because its fast is just ludicrous to me. Uh oh! The typhoon is fast also!
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Agree SW, but you are forgeting one other thing. The pilot. You know how the dynamics of the furball. That is part of the wisdom of SA. You know that a plane like the 38 can go fast through a furball and pick off 1 - 3 planes and then zoom up while 2 more fall off your tail for the lack of E. Rinse and Repeat.
Thats why I don't have a problem with them finding a way to perk pilots. A lot of things go into the equation.
Drex
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Yeah I agree with you about Pilot's Drex, which is one of my main "Sounds okay.. BUT..." problems.
The way I look at it, 7 years of this I'm no longer a newbie so I don't necessarily find the SpitIX fun. I find other things fun, I like to keep refreshing myself and trying something new. So these ideas of perking do _NOT_ hurt me in anyway...
Now don't take me as a crusader, but I'm looking at this from the newbies point of view or a plane specific lovers point of view.
It would kill them to force them into something else if they came here for something HTC has offered that is only costing them a monthly fee rather than working during that month to get the points to accrue to the set price of the ride of their choice.
Perking pilots, I'm assuming you mean based on points or rank or something that certain planes cost perk points for certain "ace" pilots.
That sounds fine, but I'm not sure how you can regulate this or decide on who's hot stuff and who's just hovering over a furball getting lucky. ;)
There's too many ifs, ands or buts in the entire perk system... so this may just be the best way to implement (as they have it now), but who knows. I'm not pretending to know it all, just guessing what could happen and the downfalls of a new system.
I look at the cons first, then the pros. If I don't like what I see in the cons list I'm not even going to bother weighing what I see in the pros list.
Although the perking pilot's idea sounds interesting Drex... what are your thoughts on this?
-SW
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You got it down. Perk system is imperfect. About your crusade for the newbies. I think that cause is more worthy then the few that want the planes perked so the newbies can't equal their intermediate skills with a better performing plane. Several schools of thought here.
About perking the pilot. This one is a complicated mess. You have so many variables that make up a kill. You have several different methods of getting a kill.
One pilot might get 10 kills per sortie and another pilot that gets 5. The pilot that gets 10 is real cautious, mart even. He patrols the outer parts of the furball and picks off his victim that is focused on another plane.
The pilot who gets 5 kills per sortie is in the mix. He is killing those in front of him and reversing those that come on his 6. Its a beautiful thing to watch and only a handful in the world can do it. In fact if the guy who got 10 kills per sortie would fight the guy with 5 kills per sortie. The pilot with 5 less kills per hop would win.
The first type of pilot is easy to score. His attributes are those that stats are geared for. The second type of pilot is harder to rate.
and then you have to agree on which type of pilot is considered better.
Its a mess huh.
Drex
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Very much a mess, but I can tell you've thrown the idea around in your head quite a lot thinking of different situations, engagements and scenarios.
The perk system is a crazy setup, but it could be considered genius... if only PCs were programmed to be smart enough to intelligently discern engagements and such, then perhaps rating based on how many kills someone gets and how he gets them.
There's a lot of interesting options.. but I think just about all of them run into a dead-end. :(
-SW
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Originally posted by Dowding:
There's also a chart for rate of climb versus altitude - do you have info on that aspect of the La-7 to compare?
its at
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/Perform.html#La%207%20No.%20452132-76 (http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/Perform.html#La%207%20No.%20452132-76)
I'll check it against HTC's....
Tilt
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It seems that many peole simply don't realize the folley of the "perk the best plane in the arena" concept. When do you stop perking the best plane?
AKDejaVu
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worse yet they are trying to perk the last plane that shot them down or that they couldnt shoot down.
The la7 is not even that common a plane. you need soft hands good shooting and good efighting skills to make good use of it..
The LA7 is not the best plane in the MA. It has some strengths and has some weaknesses. Good pilots minimize the weaknesses and mazimize the strengths. There is nothing dweebish or crutchlike about it. It is not forgiving or easy. Its just fast down low.
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Originally posted by Dowding:
There's also a chart for rate of climb versus altitude - do you have info on that aspect of the La-7 to compare?
its no spread sheet graph but........
(http://www.tilt.clara.net/climb.gif)
Note that HTC seem much closer to an AC that had one slat open for the whole climb!(Pilot having to compensate with aileron) The other slat opened prematurely at 230 km/hr IAS which was a bit earlier than should have been. (210 to 220 km/hour)
I have copies of all the original Russian files for this stuff. Kindly found for me by one Yura Nikitin (Arctic Fox of WB).
Like all these things it comes to some measure of game balance. I would only be miffed if there was any thing (currently in the HTC set)that could out climb an la7 below 8k. I reckon its more important that the AC are comparable to each other rather than some real life data.
Tilt
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The issue here is the fact we DO have a perk system in place. And until that current system gets changed or goes away we all have to live within it. You can talk all you want about perking the pilot or some other such thing but that doesn't do anything about the here and now.
What is the current rationale for perking airplanes? I believe it's because the plane has some special performance abilities that would give pilots a decided edge. Case in point, the Tempest. The Ta152 has special performance at altitude for BUFF hunting and the Arado has a jet engine (it's special performance edge being its uber speed for a bomber) The only reason the CHog was perked because of it's high usage and kill ratio namely due to its cannons. I see the CHog as the EXCEPTION rather than the rule to perking.
So.... if the groundrule to perk is that it had a decided edge in performance I say the La7 falls into that category. And it's not just about being fast either. The Tyhpoon is fast but it sucks in acceleration AND climb as well and with the new reduced roll rate can't turn that well either. With tremendous acceleration of the La7 and it's great climb speed, instanteous turn rate coupled with the very fast speed on the deck it's a COMBINATION of these flight characteristics that make it a top performer in the MA. You always have to keep in mind the arena environment that the fights are taking place in. Do I think you should perk ALL the top performers?? No, each airplane should be judged on a case by case basis. I'm just making my point for this particular case.
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Perk the stupid Spit/n1k/ :D get rid of all that unrealistic furball crap that every newbie/long timer? does every day turning aces into a big furball arena.
We should fly and Fight and more realistic alts.. say 20k and up..
anyway.. my opinon probably matters none anywho... so.. yep..
Deez out