Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: moot on November 15, 2003, 10:52:28 PM
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Equal pilots, equal E, otd, 300mph start speed and diametrically opposite on concentric circles, which gets the killshot?
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LA-5. F4U can hold its energy for 1 turn max. La-5 can chose to extend, out accelerate F4U, then out climb it.
F4U might have tigher instantaneous turn rate, but thats about it.
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Which F4Us?
FG1-1s
F2G-1s
F3A-1s
F4U-1s
F4U-2s
F4U-3s
F4U-4s
F4U-5s
AU-1s
F4U-7
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At what altitude? I've read that La-5 & 7 performance attentuates with alt.
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OTD means "on the deck".
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nothing allowed but to continue the flat turn.
Which one is best turner on horizontal, on the deck in other words.
If you can list how each F4 would fare, it's better than a general F4 comparison.
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and not the whole F4 zoo, just the ones in AH.
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After the first 360 degrees, the LA5 would definately have a better turn rate.
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If the question is related to AH, La5 and F4U1D, both 50% fuel on the deck, the La5 will keep with the F4U in the first turn, and will be able to keep its E better than the F4U also for the following circles, all of that on the deck.
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i think the f4u would get the shot first at 300mph. If the f4u misses that first shot, its in big trouble.
Many people dont seem to realise how manouverable the hog is at higher speeds, if the fight was starting below 300 my money would be on the La5.
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to keep it clear, the question is only flat turn ability, not free dogfighting.
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Originally posted by Furball
i think the f4u would get the shot first at 300mph. If the f4u misses that first shot, its in big trouble.
Many people dont seem to realise how manouverable the hog is at higher speeds, if the fight was starting below 300 my money would be on the La5.
300 mph is well above corner velocity for both types, meaning that the turns will be blackout limited until the speeds drop. Suppose you're flying the F4U-1D. It will scrub E a bit faster than the La-5. That means that it will reach corner velocity sooner (assuming both are at full throttle). That, in turn, means that the F4U will be on the inside of the circle and will get the high 12 o'clock deflection shot. Furthermore, the F4U can deploy maneuver flaps long before the La-5 to further tighten the turn. Finally, the F4U maintains far better control at very low speeds....
Frankly, unless the La-5 breaks out of the circle, it's dead.
I fly the La-5 often, and I would not get sucked into a low-speed lufberry with an F4U if I was not allowed to pull nose high.
One last point. All the F4U driver has to do is dump the landing gear (which he can do at speeds well over 300 mph) to slow down "right now", sharply reducing the turn radius and pulverize the La-5 as it goes by.
Unless the La-5 is allowed to break out and use its acceleration and climb, it's at a disadvantage.
A few of us have done similar testing with F4Us and Yaks in the TA. And although many self-appointed experts will claim otherwise, the F4U owns the Yaks in a stallfight. Again, it boils down to far better low-speed handing and a superior flap system.
Speaking of F4Us, I still hear guys whining about the F4U-4 perk price being too high. Yet, compare it to the P-51D. The -4 wins in every category; steady climb, acceleration, roll rate, dive acceleration, and zoom climb. It's at least a match in turning ability, and can chase down the P-51D up high or on the deck.
Now if they would only drop to silly perk tags..... :p
My regards,
Widewing
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Hi Widewing,
>Suppose you're flying the F4U-1D. It will scrub E a bit faster than the La-5. That means that it will reach corner velocity sooner (assuming both are at full throttle). That, in turn, means that the F4U will be on the inside of the circle and will get the high 12 o'clock deflection shot.
On the other hand, the La-5 pilot could pull back the throttle momentarily to increase energy bleed. Of course, the F4U pilot could counter by also pulling his throttle, but the end result would be that less time is spent in the flight regime favourable for the F4U.
In a real fight, the problem with the La-5 pilot pulling back the throttle would be to notice it soon enough to counter it.
Without checking the actual figures, 300 mph doesn't sound like it's far beyond corner speed anyway - I doubt the excess speed would suffice for the F4U to gain a 180° turn advantage before corner speed is reached.
(If, of course, the F4U outturns the La-5 in a sustained turn, the transitional effects are mostly of academic interest anyway.)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Widewing,
>Suppose you're flying the F4U-1D. It will scrub E a bit faster than the La-5. That means that it will reach corner velocity sooner (assuming both are at full throttle). That, in turn, means that the F4U will be on the inside of the circle and will get the high 12 o'clock deflection shot.
On the other hand, the La-5 pilot could pull back the throttle momentarily to increase energy bleed. Of course, the F4U pilot could counter by also pulling his throttle, but the end result would be that less time is spent in the flight regime favourable for the F4U.
In a real fight, the problem with the La-5 pilot pulling back the throttle would be to notice it soon enough to counter it.
Without checking the actual figures, 300 mph doesn't sound like it's far beyond corner speed anyway - I doubt the excess speed would suffice for the F4U to gain a 180° turn advantage before corner speed is reached.
(If, of course, the F4U outturns the La-5 in a sustained turn, the transitional effects are mostly of academic interest anyway.)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
No matter what the La-5 pilot does, the F4U pilot can counter it and bleed down E faster...Just dumping the landing gear will slow it like a dive brake.
Corner speed for the F4U is around 255 mph. At 250 mph the F4U driver can deploy flaps, while the La-5 must be below 190 mph to do so. Once speeds get below 150 mph, the F4U has it all over the Lavochkin because the the La-5 cannot maintain a 2 G sustained turn at speeds below this without snapping into a spin, even sooner when battling torque, so the pilot must ease off on the elevators. On the other hand, the F4U can easily maintain a 2 G turn without fear of stall-spinning out of the turn.
As I said, if we drop the level turn requirement, the La-5 can use its better acceleration and climb to reverse circumstances. Except if the F4U is the F4U-4, then it's in a world of trouble.
My regards,
Widewing
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was only curious about the relative near-stall flat turn abilities, thanks for the information and discussion.
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I dont know WW, I would be much happier in that faceoff in the la5. And dont get me wrong, I think that in theory you must be right, but in AH the LA5 has MUCH better low speed handling.
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Originally posted by -ammo-
I dont know WW, I would be much happier in that faceoff in the la5. And dont get me wrong, I think that in theory you must be right, but in AH the LA5 has MUCH better low speed handling.
We tried it earlier tonight in the TA. The La-5 simply could not hang with the F4U-1D flaps out, at 125 mph. As soon as the Lavochkin fell off, the F4U killed it.
Even meeting at 350 mph the F4U-1D beat the La-5 on the reverse every time, forcing the pilot to try going vertical. However, they have similar zoom capability and the F4U's better elevator response allowed for a decent deflection shot as the La-5 came over the top. Can't aford to miss that shot as the Lavochkin accelerates much better, and can extend and make a nice climbing reverse while the F4U claws for speed. If the shot is missed, the F4U must unload and dive for the deck to get speed. Thus the La-5 gains the tactical edge. This forces the F4U driver to turn into the incoming La-5, going for a head-on, where the .50 cal MGs have a significant range advantage. At this point the La-5 had better go vertical again.
The F4U pilot wants the get the La-5 to slow down and stall fight. The La-5 pilot wants to maintain his E. This type of fight can last a long time.
We also tried the F4U-4. With it's excellent climb and acceleration, it forced the La-5 onto the defensive almost immediately. Once the F4U-4 gets behind, the La-5 can't do much about it. For that matter, neither can the La-7.
My regards,
Widewing
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Although I've become a reasonable virtual pilot by now, it is very hard to determine in the MA what the actual advantages of the aircraft are. It hardly ever happens that you meet an enemy with comparable skill, co-alt, co-E and in a similar tactical position.
The F4U's don't turn all that bad, especially when light, but when you're low on E you're usually dead in one. I really cannot tell if the La-5 would be a better flat turner, flaps or no, but I have to agree that the F4U is much easier to control in a low speed turn fight. Push an La-5 a little to hard and it snaprolls into the ground.
I once met an F6F in my La-5 and thought I had an easy kill but he easily outmaneuvered me and I wasn't able to get an E-advantage on him. He got a few pings in and I had to limp off humiliated.
Would be great to try some of these fights in the TA and learn a thing or two from more experienced fliers.
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Originally posted by Widewing
We tried it earlier tonight in the TA. The La-5 simply could not hang with the F4U-1D flaps out, at 125 mph. As soon as the Lavochkin fell off, the F4U killed it.
Even meeting at 350 mph the F4U-1D beat the La-5 on the reverse every time, forcing the pilot to try going vertical. However, they have similar zoom capability and the F4U's better elevator response allowed for a decent deflection shot as the La-5 came over the top. Can't aford to miss that shot as the Lavochkin accelerates much better, and can extend and make a nice climbing reverse while the F4U claws for speed. If the shot is missed, the F4U must unload and dive for the deck to get speed. Thus the La-5 gains the tactical edge. This forces the F4U driver to turn into the incoming La-5, going for a head-on, where the .50 cal MGs have a significant range advantage. At this point the La-5 had better go vertical again.
The F4U pilot wants the get the La-5 to slow down and stall fight. The La-5 pilot wants to maintain his E. This type of fight can last a long time.
We also tried the F4U-4. With it's excellent climb and acceleration, it forced the La-5 onto the defensive almost immediately. Once the F4U-4 gets behind, the La-5 can't do much about it. For that matter, neither can the La-7.
My regards,
Widewing
Thats interesting. I liked and flew both AC and just had a preference for the LA5, or rather, I always felt more comfortable in it. As you say, the la5 buiilds energy much faster than the F4u. In this matchup, you would find me ensuring I leveled off energy levels first, then creating an energy advantage quickly. Depending on perceived pilot skill, I would not allow myself to be drawn into a low speed stall fight either.
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Widewing,
How about any comparisons Bx La-5 anf F4U-1(a)? My take is that the -1(a) would pose a greater threat since it's slightly faster, and apparently more nimble than the -C/-D models?
I'd run the experiment myself, but I don't know any decent -5 guys.
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Heya's,
Ran some test for kicks. Maybe off by a sec+ or - because I just did them real quick but should give you an idea.
1st test 300MPH start degrading speed.
No flaps
3 complete circles at 100ft over the ocean no YoYo'ing
WEP on
F4U-1D
50% fuel
53.65 seconds
F4U-1A
25% fuel <=is roughly equal to 50% in -1D. About 200LBS less.
53.94 seconds
La-5
50% fuel
51.04
Second test
F4U's 2 notches flap
WEP on
100 ft over the water no yo yo
200MPH start degrading speed
F4U-1D
50% fuel
57.25 seconds
F4U-1A
25% fuel
59.76 seconds
La-5<=no flap they would not deploy
50% fuel
54.19
Wing and power loadings
F4U-1D 50% fuel 11,464lbs
Wing loading= 36.5
Power Loading= .509
F4U-1A 25% fuel 11,240lbs
Wing loading = 35.79
Power loading = 5.26
La-5FN 50% fuel 7,013lbs
Using 189Sq ft for wing area
Wing loading= 37.1
Power loading= 3.79
Obviously power poading is the deciding advantage here.
However in AH the La-5 has equal duration as the F4U-1D with 50% of the fuel on board. This is a huge advantage for the Lagg ad the F4U carrys 700+lbs of fuel with 50% gas the La-5 only carries 350lbs while producing 83% of the HP.
Also the F4U in AH can only carry a full 2400rnds of .50 cal. weighing 720 lbs while the La-5 carried only 400 ronds 20mil weighting approx 260lbs.
Empty
Power loading
La-5= 3.33
F4U-1D= 4
Wing loading
La-5= 32.66
F4U-1D= 28.66