Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Bluedog on November 19, 2003, 10:51:34 PM
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The traditional English F U , two finger salute.
Anyone know it's origins?
I was just reading the thread about f15 jockeys flipping the bird, and it reminded me of this.
I read about where and how it came about, and it's pretty interesting.
If no one answers, I'll post it, just wanted to see how many, if any, knew.
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i know what it means , but i won't spoil it , ..hint, english longbowmen.
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During the 100 Years War against France the English longbowmen became the prime means of defeating the heavily fancied noble French cavalry which had previously swept the world before it.
War purists complained that use of the longbow was boring and was ruining the sport of war, while the English pointed out that it was a very difficult and exacting skill which they had spent many years learning and just because the opposition couldn't get the hang of it wasn't their fault. Besides perhaps there should be less whingeing and the opposition should instead put some effort in and learn how to fire a longbow too. Afterall it was winning that was important, not looking fancy in your new armour dashing around on your fancy warhorse.
The whingers however kept on suggesting that the amount of points scored for firing arrow through a knight should be reduced to encourage the pure hand to hand sword fight that they claimed to preffer to play (despite the fact that the previous world championship had been achieved by the whingers main team through use of the crossbow).
Anyway the French instituted a campaign of cutting the first two fingers off the bow hand of any english archer they caught. So the two fingered salute arose: it literally translates as "we can still use our longbows".
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myth
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if they cut off the first two fingers, wouldnt that be the index and middle finger?
And the fact of the matter is, knights and cavalry were able to kill longbowmen pretty easily. The only real victory longbowmen had over french cavalry is when the french dismounted in an extremely muddy field, and trudged towards english lines. Believe that was the battle of Agen Court (sic).
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Azincourt
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lol Pei - strangely, your account has some echoes with recent sporting events. ;)
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Damn revisionists. It was American longbowmen that saved the Brit's tulips in the 100 years war. Jeeze. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by davidpt40
if they cut off the first two fingers, wouldnt that be the index and middle finger?
And the fact of the matter is, knights and cavalry were able to kill longbowmen pretty easily. The only real victory longbowmen had over french cavalry is when the french dismounted in an extremely muddy field, and trudged towards english lines. Believe that was the battle of Agen Court (sic).
Agincourt, french changed the name to Azincourt so they could forget how bad they got owned
Crecy was mostly mounted french knights. They got slaughtered there as well
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Originally posted by Pooh21
Agincourt, french changed the name to Azincourt so they could forget how bad they got owned
Crecy was mostly mounted french knights. They got slaughtered there as well
Certainly, there is only 500 km between the 2 towns.
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pluck yew!
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I've never heard of a two-finger salute, other than the Hawaiian "hang-loose" sign which is actually a welcoming "dude, you're cool" sign.
For those not familiar, its the thumb and pinky finger extended with the others curled, sometimes with a slight wiggle.
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Like what Mick Dundee does to the water buff in Crocodile Dundee you mean Gofaster?
You know the 'V for Victory' thing you see Winston Churchill doing in documentaries? Reverse it, so the palm is inward, and you have the rude version.
BTW, Pei has it correct, or at least pretty much the same thing I heard....the French threatened to chop off the 'drawing fingers' of captured English longbowmen.
As he said, it means 'I can still use a Longbow Frenchman!'....condensed for ease of use to 'FU' :)
I just thought it was interesting :) Carry on Gen'lemen.
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Just because you heard the same thing that Pei did doesn't mean that the two of you are correct.
http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/pluckyew.htm
For example, just because a bunch of people believe that water drains backwards in the southern hemisphere (as opposed to the northern hemisphere) doesn't mean that it's true. In fact, it's quite false, one of the most ingrained urban legends I've seen.
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Not talking about the 'bird', or the middle finger salute commonly used by Americans today.
Same overall meaning, but a differant gesture alltogether.
Anyway, correct or not, it is at least interesting :)
Allso, though that article states that bowmen werent worth capturing, English Longbows werent exactly common bowmen, they are a far more fearsome weapon, having vastly more range (somewhere in the order of double) than contempory bows, and they apparently fairly well messed with a French mounted nobleman's whole day.
OK...so anyone know where 'shiver me timbers' comes from? :)
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Pei: During the 100 Years War against France the English longbowmen became the prime means of defeating the heavily fancied noble French cavalry
Or so the legend goes. The role of the longbowmen is significand but often considerably overestimated. Or rather the role the longbows themselves played. It was more the whole military organisation relying on high-quality professional paid troops compared to the french system.
while the English pointed out that it was a very difficult and exacting skill which they had spent many years learning and just because the opposition couldn't get the hang of it wasn't their fault.
As an owner of a (62-lb) logbow I can tell you it's not difficult. You just have to be a very big and strong man and practice few hours a week. It is a magnificent weapon but by no means a miracle.
Besides perhaps there should be less whingeing and the opposition should instead put some effort in and learn how to fire a longbow too.
It was not possible for a social organisation that French had to use longbowmen. You need a strong yeomanry class to produce mercenaries and a centralised monarchy to use the professional army. French had neither.
Anyway the French instituted a campaign of cutting the first two fingers off the bow hand of any english archer they caught.
That is largely a legend. The longbowmen were considered lowly peasants who had no place in combat. The prisoner conventions common for nobles did not apply to them, so the captured longbowmen usually had their heads cut off, not their fingers.
Cutting two fingers would have been a very stupid thing to do. The three funger grip - not two - was common in England but many other countries used thumb grip.
Maybe an archer would not have been able to draw 90 pounds using a thumb grip but even a 60 pound bow is quite a deadly weapon.
davidpt40: The only real victory longbowmen had over french cavalry is when the french dismounted in an extremely muddy field, and trudged towards english lines.
At Agincourt practically no french were killed or even hurt with arrows. Yes, the archers did kill a lot of fench and defeated them - but they did it in a hand-to-hand combat.
French made two major mistakes - they attacked in columns and they cut their lances just a bit shorter then the english. So when the head of the columns locked lances with the english men-at-armes and failed to push through, the most french were deep into the crown and could not even move much, let alone participate in combat. The english archers closed in on the flanks with their long knives and swords and slaughtered the french.
Did I mention that all longbowmen were huge men and extremely strong?
"The Face of Battle" by John Keegan (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140048979/102-8864301-3009712?v=glance)
miko
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It's true about Bowmen not being worth capturing. As a general rule at the time only noblemen were captured for ransom purposes. Ordinary footsoldiers were almost invariably slaughtered out of hand. No quarter given or expected. But there is no reason to suppose that a bit of humanity existed and rather than kill the man his fingers were snipped off to render him useless in future.
Longbowmen were so important that the one King banned football and made practice with the longbow compulsory. No 'Right to bears arms' in England It was a direct order from the King.
That law was never repealed apparently so to this day training with the longbow is compulsory. A law which is disgracefully ignored. Not only that football is played all over the place in flagrant two fingered salute to the King's orders. ;)
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Originally posted by Chairboy
For example, just because a bunch of people believe that water drains backwards in the southern hemisphere (as opposed to the northern hemisphere) doesn't mean that it's true. In fact, it's quite false, one of the most ingrained urban legends I've seen.
Coriolis effect is an inertial force due to the earth's rotation discovered by the French engineer-mathematician Gustave-Gaspard Coriolis in 1835.
It is what causes the cyclonic rotation around low atmospheric pressure areas. It does happen in a sink, but other factors such as the shape of the sink, the turbulence in the fluid, and other factors tend to overwhelm the slight effect Coriolis discovered.
In a careful experiment, in a perfectly round sink, the laminar draining of a static fluid tends to rotate oppositely than in it would in the opposite hemisphere due to the very slight 'push' given to it by the Coriolis effect.
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Holden McGroin: Coriolis effect is an inertial force due to the earth's rotation...
It is what causes the cyclonic rotation around low atmospheric pressure areas.
Also the way the rivers undermine their banks unequally. The river flowing towards equator would behave differently in northern than the southern hempsphere.
miko
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I think some people might be taking my post too seriously. :) Dowding was on the right track.
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so now that we've debunked the myth about the bowmen...how did it REALLY come about???
(oh and the most ingraned urban myth that ve found is the "centrifugal force" one...)
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Ha! I knew someone would try and defend the draining water thing, so I present the following:
http://www.snopes.com/science/coriolis.htm
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from snopes The twisting effect of the Coriolis force is real and does influence certain large things like the movement of air masses, but the effect is so small that it plays no role in determining the direction in which water rotates as it exits from a draining sink or toilet.
from holden It is what causes the cyclonic rotation around low atmospheric pressure areas. It does happen in a sink, but other factors such as the shape of the sink, the turbulence in the fluid, and other factors tend to overwhelm the slight effect Coriolis discovered.
Two ways of saying the same thing, although Snopes is slightly incorrect in saying small things do not effect large things.
The fact remains that the Coriolis effect does, however slightly, tend to cause rotation of fluids oppositely in the northern than the southern hemisphere.