Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MANDOBLE on December 05, 2001, 08:25:00 AM
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Hate this plane, I vote for 199 perks per La.
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cant stand it my self. I think what i hate most about it is how many there are flying around AH.
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Fly it for a while, and you'll see that it has some easily exploitable weaknesses. It is easily beatable when a newbie is on the stick. With someone flying it that understands it, it can be tough to fight, thats when you need to push the envelope of your aircraft. I'm just tired of watching em run :D
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ROFLOL AcId, I know very well that plane,
its only weaknesses is the pilot.
With La7 unperked, unperk Ta, f4U4, 262 and Tempest to have some coherence.
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There is a HUGE difference between the La7 & the tempest, 262, and even the F4u-4.
If the La7 was leading the pack in kills like the Chawg used to then I'd agree with perking it. (like the chawg, 8 perks or so)
Fact remains la7 is consistantly #4 behind spit, p51 & niki. Perk them FIRST, then we can talk about the la7.
:)
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I say we should leave everything about the La7 as it is, only 3x larger. :)
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I hate it too.
eskimo
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La7 is average at best above 10,000 ft.
There isn't a plane that isn't perked that needs to be perked.
The Ta152 and F4U-4 prices should be reduced, IMO.
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Give me hispanos for the b20s or shivaks or what ever and Ill agree to pay 8 perkies for it. You can extend from it in 400 yards..he isnt extended from a 50Cal armed plane for 800 yards.
The range when the enemy is effectivly under your guns is one of the most easily exploited advantages in Air combat. A disparity there is the biggest advantage that pilots in the MA try to gain.
In 2 hours of playing last night I think I saw 4 LA7s 2 dozen spits, a dozen ponys 6 p38s. ....what is the problem again?
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Wonder why no one ever whines about the spitIX?
because pongo is right, they plague the MA more than anything. I do see a lot of La7s though, more so than what pongo stated. But indeed not as much as the spit.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Hate this plane, I vote for 199 perks per La.
Mandoble, the la5/7 excels at defense against all planes. But, it's not a very strong offensive plane against 109-G2s or F6Fs (in particular.) If La5/7s are frequenting an area, get in a g2 or f6f and send them packing.
Both rides will beat the la5/7 and they will have no choice but to run. Of course, you aren't going to run them down ... :)
I might add that no way should a plane be perked if it can handily beaten by a F6F.
curly
[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: AKcurly ]
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Personally I think the La-7 (and La-5) are difficult planes to fly well. Even with a quality pilot they require alot of patience...the gun envelope is pretty small. The big advantage is the ability to control the fight against most planes (109's excluded...G10 especially).
The biggest issue I see is volume....I flew 4 hops last night and was 1-herd all four. Course I'm a handsomehunk for flying into em but such is life.
I'd say the sheer volume of contacts in the MA will make it tough to survive without adapting a bit of a herd mentality. The La-7 is very well suited to this enviornment...as one of the AK's mentioned to me awhile back...me F6 won't be making round trips very often :( ....0-4 last night ...sigh
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Think of the La7 as a P-51, with short legs, terrible gun range, little ammo, bad views, no drop tanks, no maneuver flaps, with a nasty stall that performs worse at medium/high altitude.
Oh, almost forgot, it's 4 mph faster on the deck than a P51... like that matters. If the La7 is catching a P51 on the deck it's because he had alt on you to start with or you got too slow.
-Soda
The Assassins
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I don't think perk points should apply in the MA at all.
There will always be A "Most popular AC"
When all the pissing and moaning is done, we will all be flying Spits :)
Blutic
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La7 doesnt need maneouver flaps, it outmaneouver everything with wings. 400 yards range for guns is more than the maximum limit for any plane with 151/20 or 108 guns. La7 armour beats even F6F5. This plane outaccelerates, outclimbs and outruns even a G10 at our actual arena combat heights. This plane even outzooms the "incredible" Typhoon.
For those talking about the infinity-E SpitIX, I agree, perk it also.
Perk those planes or unperk actual perked ones. For example, F4U4 perked and La7 not is ridiculous, even more in the case of Ta.
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I agree, should be perked along with some of the other "if I fly this, i'll have an large advantage" type planes.
Its an annoyance if your not flying it. Great if you are imo.
Fast planes are fine <typhoon>, manueverable planes are fine <spit>, but fast manueverable planes <la7, Yak9U> kinda prevent people like me who enjoy flying a normal plane <tiffie, P38> from flying them.
At least, if they don't prevent me, they make it very difficult and somewhat boring.
The reason I now mostly fly the Spit9 (a plane which I don't really like). But its easier and I don't get frustrated as much.
Zygote (now unfortunately known as Pyemia).
:(
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I'd like to know how many La-7s were produced
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I think about 5600.
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knowing the russians, probably thousands JPEG.
I've said it before ill say it again:
Perk
La7
P51D
109G10
190D9
Unperk Ta152, its an a8 for all practical purposes till it hits 25k.
If its got a late war model in the game, perk the late war version. Its not as if people cant fight in la5, P51B, 109f4/g2/g6 or 190a5/a8/f8.
Make them cheap, 5 perk planes.
And for feks sake, remove the fantasy .50 cal loadout from the spit!
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The LA7 performs nice, but it has limitations. It has short range, even for the MA, and its gun set is pathetic. The cannons don't have great ballistics and in the most common MA setup it has only 150 rounds per gun. You frequently HAVE to saddle up to get kills, and in the MA that's not always good for staying alive.
LA7's don't scare any more than any other plane. I don't think they killed me ONCE during the last tour; because of their crap guns they're not as effective as a Spit or P-51 or N1K2. They're like a better-accelerating P-51 with much worse guns and sucky high-alt performance and hardly any range (which means a high LA7 isn't a very common sight unless you're on the deck).
The LA7's best role, IMO, is as a "perk killer". This is why perk-plane drivers tend to hate it--it has the speed and maneuverability to kill most the perk aircraft.
But as a normal MA plane, the LA7 is good but not incredible.
J_A_B
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Rude you listening? :)
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Soda,
La-7 is 14 or 15mph faster tha the P-51D on the deck.
La-7 is the fastest non-perk fighter on the deck. The 70 point Tempest is a whopping 3 or 4mph faster than the La-7.
Although the La-7 is my most disliked opponent, I do not think it should be perked.
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Most LA7 pilots fly very poorly and are not a big threat. They miss their gun passes a few times, get scared then run away. Thats what most of the LA7s Ive met do. I think the LA7 took on many of the pre LA7 unskilled G10 hit and runner types as its a better, faster G10 that has more ammo and turns better while being all around easier to fly.
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Gotta admit that even if most La-7 pilots are poor-in skill, it is extremely annoying to have them around as an enemy. :) (But then again, every aircraft is annoying to have as an enemy).
Gun package isn't all that good, but since the plane is capable of getting behind everyone's arse real close real quick, it really isn't that much of a problem. Seeing those nice combos of La-7s coupled with dandy N1K2s and Spits to make tends to get boring, too. (but like someone else said, this sort of thing cannot be controlled I guess.. perk it then just move on to another plane...etc etc)
The 'diversity' is good when the battle has just begun, then after a while a furball forms.. voila. Spits, La-7s and N1K2s, friend or foe alike. :rolleyes: "There we go again.. the same ol' same ol'..." :D
Maybe a light light perk of 2~3 points will pressure a little bit of the La-7 trend. But still, I'm not all that up for perking it. Sure, I'd like it if it's perked, but if it isn't, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Kweassa ]
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Most LA7 pilots fly very poorly and are not a big threat. They miss their gun passes a few times, get scared then run away.
They do. 1 vs 1 it is not a big thread actually, but my problem with 51s, la7, or g10 is that there are always some t&b planes around, so they slow me down, and then I am alone, low and not fast enough to run against the hordes of turning enemies. AND I CAN'T RUN. So, when I can't run, I usually die :)
When it happens, I get 262 and play same game with la7, run it down with some t&b friendlies around. Trust me, they hate it even more, than I do :)
Fariz
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Originally posted by Ghosth:
There is a HUGE difference between the La7 & the tempest, 262, and even the F4u-4.
If the La7 was leading the pack in kills like the Chawg used to then I'd agree with perking it. (like the chawg, 8 perks or so)
Fact remains la7 is consistantly #4 behind spit, p51 & niki. Perk them FIRST, then we can talk about the la7.
:)
GHOST AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHH
ok im cold as stone.....
LA7 do not have many deads,kills because meny dweeb flying it like HO run HO run HO run...... Tempest vs LA7 .... well i got la7 in tiffie, but i think that if LA7 will have normal pilot like AKlarry, Fariz and no those retards whitch flying it you have no chance in tempest
LA7 turn as good as Yak
bigger ammo load better acceleration
very good climb rate
but question is when was LA7 "REALEASED" ?
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: EagleC ]
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my guess is that LA7 and F4U-4 have same performance
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Orel, I agree. Yak9U is even more dangerous thou yes?
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Man, no kidding Funked!
Want to join me in a few choruses of "Perk 'em all"?
I'll buy the first round of bitter!
For those of you asking to perk the LA-7, I have a request. Please post which aircraft YOU fly the most (call it a research project). Thank you.
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
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I fly the 109 G-10 and I think a 202 should be perked as it's bullets out run me.
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Lol, the plane sports three 20mm cannons on the nose wich have better ballistics and hitting power than the MG151, and they say it has poor weapons.
fediddlein funny :D.
BTW who said "it has little ammo"?...three 20mm cannons with 200rpg is "little ammo"?...
The FW190's wingroot guns carry 250rpg each, and most people say its a wooping loadout. And 200 is "little ammo"?
fediddlein funny, again :D.
I dont know wether it should be perked or not, all I know is that it outperforms all the MA fighter planes exception made of the me262 and tempest -and it outaccelerated and outclimbs the tempest-. I dont care about it being perked, but he who says it has poor weapons and/or that it is not that good, he has no clue :).
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]
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MAND - thats absurd bro. The armor on the La7 is no where NEAR the armor on the F6F-5.
It has been stated once, but Ill state it again ... the planes you squeak about the La7 outrunning? That is on the deck only. Above about 10K, the La7 loses its speed advantage to the P51 (by about 15 MPH) AND the Dora (by about 10 MPH).
AND if you are gonna squeak about the La7's turning/climbing ability, might as well squeak about the La5. Identical performance, climb rate, turn rate, etc. (hell I even think the La5 might yank around a bit quicker). Needless to say the La7 is quicker on the deck.
AND the guns do require some skill. With the P51, I can lace out .50 cal streams from 500-700 yards with damn good lethality. With the La7, I gotta get within 300 for deflection shots/snap shots. If you know what you are doing, I shouldnt get to within 300 yards of yer six :D
I dont mind perking the La7, but if you do, there is a handful of other planes that need to be perked as well.
Nim
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Guess I am the exception. I think La-7's are no big deal. No way they turn better than any Yak, you can hold your own in a 51, and any Spit can make one run. It is harder to hit with the guns (in my experience) but that is probably something you have to get used to.
You can argue there are too many of them I suppose, but there you go down the path of perking everything eventually.
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Originally posted by aknimitz:
MAND - thats absurd bro. The armor on the La7 is no where NEAR the armor on the F6F-5.
Totally agree in the real world, but I need more ammo to kill an AH La7 than a F6F.
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You cant really argue that it shouldnt be perked because of the "quality of pilots flying it". If the tempest wasnt perked it would have the same "dweebs" flying it. Perk the LA7 and it will have a close, if not the same K/D ratio as the temp, or Chog.
I would like to see a light perking on it, 2-3 perks, but if that was the case you would also have to lower the perks of the F4uC becuase the LA7 is a much better AC (besides its lack of ammo).
Theres is hand full of planes that i think should have a light perking on. If you cant go out and score 2-3 perks in the LA7, SpitIX, P51D to make up for spending them, you are a gang bang dork who doesnt need to be flying it, IMO.
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Thats because its a much smaller target.
I bet F6f is half again as big as the la7.
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Toad: P38L. And yes, I wouldnt mind having it perked as long as they gave me a 38J or F or H to play with.
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Karnak,
Soda,
La-7 is 14 or 15mph faster tha the P-51D on the deck.
With WEP, yes, but you can't run the WEP much on the La7 for fear of running it out of fuel. The 190D9 is 9mph faster than the same P-51D... The Typhoon 12mph.... and the Typhoon has 4 hispanos!
The La7 is a good plane, but in my opinion certainly not better than a P51D. Just don't get dumb and decide to fight it all the way to the deck.... if you do then the La7 has successfully executed the reverse rope-a-dope on you since you'll be low and slow right in it's lair.
I think this whole discussion is just an extention of the "runstang" issue we had many versions ago. The La7's fight, then leave, and people get pissed off that they can't do the same.
If the argument is to perk it because it's too "good", then someone would have to point out to me how they manage to forget about the La7's many shortcomings. Weak guns, bad vis, poor range, bad performance above 8K (which many MA fights still start over 8K, easy, I'd say average "top" alt for a furball is still in the 10-12K range).
If the argument is to perk it because it is too popular, then someone will have to also perk all the planes that are above it in popularity, namely the N1K, SpitIX and P51D. Perking it because of popularity would only make more drivers take on the next percieved "best" ride anyway.
If the argument is to perk it because you can't find a way to deal with it in your "favorite" ride, well, that's not a reason.
-Soda
The Assassins
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Soda,La7 vis is not bad at all, not like the P51 but still good.
and
You can run that WEP for a hell of a long time?
and
You can't fly forever but its not like a Typhoon when it comes to endurance.
and
It might not have Hispanos, but Hispano's are only useful if you can get them on target. You can put Hispano's on a brick, does'nt mean you gonna be able to draw a bead.
so
Give me a La7 against the P51 anyday at realistic MA altitudes.
When i'm in a Tiffie or P38, P51 is a welcome sight indeed. La7 makes me break a sweat and swear loudly.
Zygote. :D
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Look at Deja's tour 22 stats. Does any plane have a kill % of twice that of the next plane? Yup, the F4U-4 has 0.19% of the total kills in the MA and the Hurri IId has 0.09%. The Spit IX has about 35% more kills and more deaths than the P51D. In tour 15, the CHog had over 100% more kills than the N1K2. The CHog was responsible for over 16% of the kills, while the next planes were responsible for around 8% each (the 100% thing mentioned earlier). That's just the numbers, and yes, numbers can be used to mean anything you want them to. ;) Beyond that, the F4U-1C saw only a production run of 200, and did not enter action until 1945 over Okinawa (as far I as can gather on net sources.) So we had a late war plane, with low production numbers, that was outkilling by over 100% the #2 killer in the arena. That pretty much got the CHog it's little price tag.
La-7, around 5700 produced, late 1943, didn't see service until 1944 I think. Arguably the best performer under 10,000ft. Above that alt, it's below average at best. Good armament in close, good durability, and small target. Shouldn't be perked, IMO, tho since there's a La5, it could handle the perking. I'm guessing peeps would head for the Spit IX instead of the La5 though.
F. Spitfire MkIXc (with the e package selectable) entered service in 1942. all Spit IX variants totalled about 5600, but not sure on our version. The e package wasn't until 1943, and no one has found an accurate account of it being mated with the Merlin 61 engine we have in our Spit IX. Personally, I think the E package should be removed from our Spit, but if not, it still shouldn't be perked.
P51D. 8000 made, saw service in 1944, arguably the most famous American fighter of WWII (tho Corsairs come in a close second thanks to the gull wings and the Black Sheep Squadron TV series.) The armament seems to be spot on with the actual data. She's fast, but that's about it. I don't think she should be perked.
N1K2-J saw about 420 produced, and was a late 1944 plane. This plane is one of the best performers the Japanese made. They whooped me this past tour, every time I died, it seemed it was a damned George that got behind me. Still, it shouldn't be perked, tho closest of the bunch due to late war, semi-rare plane.
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The La7 vis is poor, it's nothing like the P-51, not even in the ballpark. Sure, the P-51 is outstanding, but any number of other aircraft in the MA have better vis than the La7. It is one of the worst, though I don't think it is necessarily 'the' worst. It does hurt your SA though, especially to the rear.
The WEP in the La7 runs as long as the 190 and 109, a long time. The problem is with fuel consumption. With those planes you have drop tanks, and multiple fuel tanks to get you to the fight. In the La7 you don't, you are always burning the main tank. The main tank doesn't get very far on WEP. With the Typhoon if you want to go a fair distance you pack your wing drop tanks. Also, 1 hit to the main fuel of an La7 and you are a glider within 1 minute. A fuel hit in a P-51, Typhoon, 190 usually just means you become a sky-writer.. no real problem other than attracting attention. Hell, it might even help you and make you lighter in one of those other planes.
The La7 has a forward gun range, for what I would consider a 'makeable' shot of about D375. Anything more that that and your rounds are flying all over the place (un-real considering you'd think with them all cowl mounted you'd be better off). You also can't afford to spend the ammo on shots over that since you only have 150 rounds/gun. That's not a very large, or long, opportunity for an La7 to fire. Compare that to something like the P-51, or Typhoon for that matter. Effective .50 shot range (again, aiming and expecting hits) is probably D550-D600. I know I take those shots all the time, maybe not expecting crippling damage, but at least to put some rounds on target. That extra ~200 yards is HUGE. It gets worse on a tail shot, the longest La7 kill I've ever had was at D625, pure tail shot on someone who hit auto-level. I had to set it up and spent 350 rounds firing away to get the kill. I'd take a D625 tail shot in something with hispanos or .50s ANY time. that's money in the bank.. with hispanos you can probably expect to amputate wings at that range within 100 rounds fired (or less). With .50's I've made those same shots reliably out to D800... and would feel confident about landing rounds at that range. The La7 tail is weak too... 1-2 cannon hits in that area and it's gone, the wings seem fairly tough, and pilot kills are rare, but the tail comes off just as easy as other planes. How many of use have had D800 N1K's hammer out planes from the sky as we try and get away from them... that's the combination of the N1K acceleration and all that ammo... it's a true distance killer (as the C-Hog is).
The Tiffie and P38 are both bad matches for the La7... maybe the reason you are having problems. the Tiffie accelerates like a dumptruck, and the P38 is missing almost 40mph on the deck as compared to the La7. (I fly both a lot though cuz I like them too, they have style.... just look at my stats. I bet the La7, Typhoon, and P38 are my 3 favorite rides last tour).
I'm not saying the La7 isn't a great plane, it is, but it isn't some omnipotent plane in the MA. I fly it all the time, mixed in with a bunch of other rides, and every time I go to a plane that has .50's or hispanos my shooting % goes way up and I land kills I couldn't dream of in an La7. I think most of the La7 mystique is from the quick short range kills it gets (those D150 snapshots that rip both wings off), or getting caught low and slow on the deck and having little chance of running away regardless of your ride.
-Soda
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And im saying to perk them 'cause its a late war plane with an earlier version in the game. La5 I hardly ever see. And the la5 is FAR more deadly than the la7 for turnfights and e-fighting. Sure it doesnt accel like the 7, but damn that thing is mean!.
It controlled the CHOG overuse/abuse. Maybe a cheap, cheap perking of all late war birds with early war models in-game will see the use of the same plane without the late war power.
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"Maybe a cheap, cheap perking of all late war birds with early war models in-game will see the use of the same plane without the late war power."
And which twin-engine fighter just happens to distinctly NOT have an earlier version modeled? YES! The FTD!
The "perk it" comments still don't chance the fact that the LA7, as with the spit in AW, is often a "one kill wonder" because of its lack of range and ammo load. It's certainly not that creat an airplane. A P-38 is a much more deadly arena plane IMO because it has the gas and ammo to stay up a longer time.
J_A_B
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One kill wonder? ;) not a chance. La7 has plenty of ammo for multi-kill sorties. Spitfire cannons have plenty of ammo for multi-kill sorties. Of course if you're talking about the people who have to spray n pray to get one kill, then yeah, I agree with you. :)
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There just isn't a basis for perking the La7. It's not the most popular plane, it doesn't have an overwhelming K/D ratio, it doesn't have one ability that places it clearly ahead of the rest by a large margin. It isn't any later war than many others and it was made in large numbers so not rare. Those are the standard reasons people have tried to use to explain why something should be perked.
The characteristics it has are good, some very good, but on average no more so than several other birds in this game. It has other characteristics that are bad, some very bad (ever stalled a La7... ever recovered from that low?).
I always consider the La7's best ability was it's defense. It can dash out low under the fight and escape when the situation might look bad. It can turn JUST well enough to give some of the BnZ'rs fits. It can accelerate just well enough to get away from the TnB'rs guns before they get a good shot. Those were its main assets, not it's offensive abilities.
The La5 is a good ride, not popular in the MA, but a good ride. It will walk away from a Spit/N1K/Zero down low just like an La7.
-Soda
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Jab, yes, thats why I said to give a 38J of F or H.
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Originally posted by Kweassa:
The 'diversity' is good when the battle has just begun, then after a while a furball forms.. voila. Spits, La-7s and N1K2s, friend or foe alike. "There we go again.. the same ol' same ol'..."
Its amazing how people only pute the aircraft they dislike on these lists.
I mean, the #1, 3, and 4 killers in the MA are on Kweassa's list, but for some reason the P-51D, the #2 killer, doesn't make it to his list.
Why is that Kweassa? Is the P-51D and Kweassa approved aircraft?
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I know this might sound stupid, especially considering my kill stats against them, but I actually think the best "BnZ plane" is not the La7, but the P51.
La7 outperforms the P51 by a wide margin, I will concede that point. La7 also outperforms every single German plane, while the P51 doesn't even come close (every German plane has at least one area where it has an edge on the P51, not so with the La7).
However, for a person that wants to use a fast plane to basically get kills and not dogfight to much, the choice is clear.
The P51 has - Outstanding guns. They are SOOOO easy to hit with it is absurd. It messes up my aim royally when I switch between .50 cal planes and LW planes, the ballistics are in a totally different league.
- Amazing range. I believe the P51 has more range than any other fighter in the game. If it doesn't then it is damn close.
- Awesome visability. Enough said.
- Good speed on the deck. 370 mph or so, enough to outrun everything but a Dora, la7, and Tiffie.
- Decent turning (if you know how and when to turn).
- Excellent high altitude performance (20k and up).
The La7 has -
- Nice guns. The caveat is they have short range (sort of like LW cannons, but I don't think they hit as hard).
- Itty bitty fuel tank. About the same as a 109 without a DT. Climbing to 20k will probably use up 30-40% of your fuel.
- Horrible visibility. It is NOT 'good'.. it isn't even 'decent'. The cockpit layout SUCKS. It is so hard to see stuff behind you, and the birdcage gets in the way on some views.
The La7 is a good plane. It is one of the very few planes that, in my opinion, can nuetralize a "skill" advantage. However, its performance is balanced by its weaknesses in my opinion. The P-51 makes for a much better overall plane, especially with a skilled pilot.
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No Karnak, it's because I don't see a 51 down at 10k minus often. I wouldn't complain about any aircraft when the fight we see is over 15k at least.
Just stating the facts. We see fights most often at under 10k. What three planes do YOU see the most?
ps) If it makes you feel better, personally, I hate P-51s :)
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Originally posted by funkedup:
Rude you listening? :)
LOL I was scrolling down to post the same thing...
This is another of those "I don't like it because it's better than my plane so I'll whine about it until it get's perked/porked" threads...
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The La7 is a good plane. It is one of the very few planes that, in my opinion, can nuetralize a "skill" advantage. However, its performance is balanced by its weaknesses in my opinion. The P-51 makes for a much better overall plane, especially with a skilled pilot.
Now I know why it (La7) works so well for me :D
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"Perk the LA-7" Guys mostly fly the:
Mandoble - Fw-190D9 (Tour 22 FW-190D9)
Am0n - A6m5B (Tour 22 F6F-5)
Eskimo - (Tour 22 Typhoon F4U-1C)
Pyemia - Spit IX (Tour 22 as Zygote LA-7)
TAC - P-38 (Tour 22 P-38)
Kweassa - Bf-109G10 (Tour 22 Bf-109G10)
That's all the posters I saw saying "perk it".
Interesting, no?
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It's as intersting as La-7 pilots saying "don't perk it. There is no reason to".
ps) If La-7 is to be perked, and so is G10 or D9 and 51 to match balance, hey, I'd gladly agree.
ps2) and as I said, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if La-7 is not perked. Perk or no, it's up to HT. At least La-7s aren't frustrating to see as C-hogs.
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Toad if im not mistaken i said if the LA7 was perked there was a hand full of other AC that should be perked before hand.
"I would like to see a light perking on it, 2-3 perks, but if that was the case you would also have to lower the perks of the F4uC becuase the LA7 is a much better AC (besides its lack of ammo).
Theres is hand full of planes that i think should have a light perking on. If you cant go out and score 2-3 perks in the LA7, SpitIX, P51D to make up for spending them, you are a gang bang dork who doesnt need to be flying it, IMO."
interesting isnt it?
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Cheaply perk the La7, P51D, 109G10, Fw-190D9 and P38L (when a P38J or early model arrives on the scene)...
As is, all the fights are a mix of TnBers (mostly Spitfires) and BnZers (mostly La7s, 190D9s, 109G10s, P51Ds)..
There's already a La5FN, that doesn't get used much because it isn't as fast and doesn't offer 3 cannons.
A P51B which is actually faster between the deck and 15K than the D model.
A 109F4, G2, G6 (take your pick) that will be just as good if the late war speed monsters get perked.
The Fw190A8, or A5 which will also be just as good if the late war models are perked. The 190A8 is a real quick machine and can run like hell on the deck.
I'm saying like 8-10 perk points.
No reason to perk the Spitfire, it just isn't that good.
-SW
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Spit keeps energy like hell, is one of the fastest planes at heigh and after a dive, and has hispanos. Do you want more reasons to perk it? ok, another one, one of the bests vertical performers in the game.
190D9, for example, is clearly inferior to SpitIX at 25k or above.
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<hmmmmmm... mi, mi, mi, mi>
"Perk 'em all!
Perk 'em all!
The large and the fast and the small.
Perk all the Nikkis and C-Hogs in blue,
Perk anything that can shoot back at you!
`cause they're asking to just perk 'em all
As back to their Towers they crawl,
There'll be constant crying
as long as they're dying,
So cheer up, my lads,
Perk 'em all!
Nobody knows if the FM's are true,
So cheer up, my lads,
Perk 'em all!"
:D
Sorry, these threads always make me want to sing!
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"190D9, for example, is clearly inferior to SpitIX at 25k or above. "
What more reason for perking a 1942 plane over a 1944 plane could you possibly need?
Whiner.
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What more reason for perking a 1942 plane over a 1944 plane could you possibly need?
Whiner.
And the hits keep rolling... another good reply.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Spit keeps energy like hell, is one of the fastest planes at heigh and after a dive, and has hispanos. Do you want more reasons to perk it? ok, another one, one of the bests vertical performers in the game.
190D9, for example, is clearly inferior to SpitIX at 25k or above.
Well i see that you are missing sun in spain now .... but do not try tell us that you feel fear from Spit .... :rolleyes:
[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: EagleC ]
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Here's a fun trick:
Every time a Luftwaffle complains about the Spit IX, check out their stats against it.
Invariably they do better against the old slow Spit AH has chosen to model than they do against other aircraft, but they still hate it with a vengance. Why?
Mandoble, for example, who wants a 1942 Spit perked but his 1944 Dora unperked, has the following stats this tour:
Overall kill/death 6.68/1
Kill/death against Spit IX 13/1
Why does such a good pilot, who finds the Spit so easy to kill, want it perked?
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Nashwan
I have been told in the past that digging up stats no matter how effective at wining an argument..is in bad taste..
consider yourself warned..
:)
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No, no, no.
It's not whether or not they find it an easy kill.
It's just that they see TOO MANY of them in the MA. All they ever get to fight is one or two plane types.
That's why most of them want a dedicated Axis V Allied European Air War arena. Much more variety in the type of aircraft they get to meet in combat that way.
;)
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Nashwan, what we have is a extremely rare "mixture" that is anything but a 1942 regular spitIX.
About D9, killing with it is much much more difficult than with SpitIX, in fact, D9 is not a popular plane. And yep, this is a 1944 plane, but not designed for our furballing-low-level arena where Spits, Las, Yaks and Nikis shine. All these planes have also a major advantage here, they can live in ethernal blackout with minimal or null E lose.
Anyway this thread was about the infinity-E-generator-indestructible La7.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
...they can live in ethernal blackout with minimal or null E lose.
Got any more BS where that came from?
Anyway this thread was about the infinity-E-generator-indestructible La7.
Of course you did, how silly of me to have doubted you.
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You cannot by any stretch of the imagination champion a "Perk the Spit IX" cause. Sure, furball the D9 against the Spit and you lose. Play hit-and-run against the Spit and you win. You know this, I don't have to tell you. You control the fight, unless you get caught low- in which case you pour on that 10-minute wep and run.
Sure, killing the Spit may be hard for ya, but getting away from it should be a piece of cake.
As for La's just can't find it in my heart to hate them. I just don't believe they are THAT good, nor are they quite THAT numerous yet.
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Nashwan, what we have is a extremely rare "mixture" that is anything but a 1942 regular spitIX.
It's performance is that of a 1942 plane. It has the ability to carry bombs, which it shouldn't, but that hardly has much effect in air to air.
It's only advantage is the E guns package, but swapping 2 50 cals for 4 303s when you already have 2 Hispanos doesn't seem like that much difference.
Anyway this thread was about the infinity-E-generator-indestructible La7.
Yes, but you widened it to include the Spit.
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Ok, just some small notes about the Spit speed.
1 - Spit is faster than D9 at hi alts.
2 - Spit is faster than D9 at substained climb at most alts except very low.
3 - Spit is faster than D9 in a dive.
4 - Spit is much faster than D9 turning (degrees per second)with much less E lose.
5 - Spit is much faster than D9 in vertical zooms (and stills forever there).
6 - Spit is slower than D9 in LEVEL flight at medium and lo alts.
Ok, the conclusion is that Spit is a slow plane???
And a last thing, D9 is ony "anything" with WEP ON, and WEP doesnt still forever.
Nashwan, our actual Spit, aside other deviations, has an exagerated roll rate at lo/medium speeds compared to NACA ones.
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I'm coming around to Toad's way of thinking, I think...
It'd be interesting to see what happens to MA variety if every time you climbed into the cockpit, you were making a decision about how many perk points you were risking vs the performance you were getting from the plane.
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1 - Spit is faster than D9 at hi alts.
BS. The Fw190D-9 is faster at all altitudes, although not pronouncedly faster at high altitudes.
2 - Spit is faster than D9 at substained climb at most alts except very low.
Maybe, I haven't tested it. Solution? Level out and leave the Spit in the dust.
3 - Spit is faster than D9 in a dive.
Spit may be slightly faster in a steep dive after the Fw190D-9 pulls away initially. Solution? Level out and leave the Spit in the dust, or do a shallow dive.
4 - Spit is much faster than D9 turning (degrees per second)with much less E lose.
Gee, ya think? :rolleyes:
5 - Spit is much faster than D9 in vertical zooms (and stills forever there).
I'm not sure what you mean by this, but when I BnZ with the Fw190D-9 I get a lot more zoom out of it than I do out of the Spit IX.
6 - Spit is slower than D9 in LEVEL flight at medium and lo alts.
BS, the Fw190D-9 is faster at all altitudes, and vastly faster at low altitudes. BTW, this is a repeat of your first "point".
Plus:
The Fw190D-9 has more than twice as much cannon ammo.
The Fw190D-9 has much greater fuel endurance.
The Fw190D-9 has better acceleration.
The Fw190D-9 has better visibility.
The Fw190D-9 rolls very much better.
The Fw190D-9's performance is optimized for AH combat altitudes, whereas the Spit F.IX is not.
Yes, it is easier to kill an idiot when you are flying a Spit than when you are flying an Fw190D-9. So what. Are we to judge all aircraft based on the ease with which they kill idiots?
The Fw190D-9 offers the experienced sim pilot much more than the Spitfire F.MkIX does. If I were to fly for K/D ratio, as the average sim pilot that I am, I would only fly the Bf109G-10, Fw190D-9, La-7 and P-51D in AH.
[ 12-09-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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Yep, what Karnak said. He hit the nail on the head that time.
Anyway, just look at the numbers guys. Check out Dejavu's stat pages over the last several months. Sure, there are still some "big dogs" on the block, but the arena IS getting more diverse as we go along.
Fact of the matter is, as much as I dread to say it, we need a faster Spitfire in the arena. It doesn't have to be a whole helluva lot faster, but maybe one that is optimized to get performance at low levels instead of the one we have (which is great at 25k and up, but really slow compared to the competition under 15k).
Karnak, correct me if I am wrong, but the Spit IX LF was optimized to fight at low levels, was it not? And that would be a 43 to 44 airplane instead of a 42 to 43 one.
The Spit is DAMN easy to fight. It may be hard to kill if there is a very good pilot at the controls, but it is also very hard to die to if you even remotely competent and in one of the faster planes (which is probably everything but the Zeke). Even if HTC introduced a more 'capable' Spit (like the LF version of the Spit IX), people STILL wouldn't be able to fly it to its full potential, because most of the people who fly the Spit are, well, newbies. Once they've mastered basic flight, they will get sick of people running from them and move on to a faster plane.
Anyway, thats my rather long-winded 25 cents.
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Karnak, it seems you have very little idea of what a 190D9 is (very different than A8/A5). So, no matter to reply you about D9 vs Spit.
Ah, and for your information, K/D is the less important factor here.
Ups, and perhaps your dictionary (or your mind) has more words than your beloved "BS".
Urchin, Karnak didnt hit any nail, you hit it discovering an evidence, Spits are easy to kill because 90% of people flying it has a very green level. A competent Spit pilot will force a draw or a victory over a same level D9 one.
[ 12-09-2001: Message edited by: MANDOBLE ]
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ummm I dont get it. The LA7 IS a tuff opponent at low altitudes. The spit IX is a great AC but uber? Perk? Maybe the Dora. Now that AC is more in line with that suggestion. The Spit IX we currently have is an easy plane to fly, it is seen everywhere in the arena with new guys flying it. Its got hispanos and in a low alt furball it can be deadly. but it does not compete well with the faster AC. If HTC was thinking of perking more AC, I would suggest the 109G10 and the FW190D for starters. The *cough* (this got me in trouble before) P-51D and the LA7 would be there too.
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Some day people may very well get their wish; when they do, watch the arena numbers fall as the newbies who come tire of endlessly dying in their 202's.
Please, no BS about how that will only make them better pilots. It won't matter, because they won't stick around long enough to earn the points to get the better planes. The learning curve is already steep, and making it steeper won't keep people.
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Kieran newbies have SpitV, C205, 109F, Ki161, La5, F6F, etc as good choices.
Our arena is not a WWII theater, we have a lo level furball arena, nothing more and nothing less.
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"Our arena is not a WWII theater"
And when did anyone ever say it was supposed to be one?
J_A_B
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There are only two kind of planes, FW190 and Targets.
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1 - Spit is faster than D9 at hi alts.
Only if high alt starts at 30K. How many fights do you see up there?
2 - Spit is faster than D9 at substained climb at most alts except very low.
Only if very low ends at 17k.
6 - Spit is slower than D9 in LEVEL flight at medium and lo alts.
Yes, it is.
Nashwan, our actual Spit, aside other deviations, has an exagerated roll rate at lo/medium speeds compared to NACA ones.
IIRC, and I can look it up if you insist, the AH Spit IX rolls too slowly at low speed, too fast at high speed. Exactly the same is true of the AH Fw190s.
Our arena is not a WWII theater, we have a lo level furball arena, nothing more and nothing less.
So low alt performance is more important than high alt? I agree.
At sea level, the AH Dora is:
55mph faster than the AH Spit IX
400 ft/min better climbing
In fact, at sea level, the only fighter slower than the Spit IX AH has chosen to model is the Zero. Even the C202 is as fast, the 109F4 is faster.
Oh, apart from most of the other British fighters AH has chosen to model, of course.
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It's unfortunate that the Spit is so good at the type of fighting most often seen in AH. It really keeps HTC's hands tied in regards to adding a later model Spit as anything but a perk plane.
Even a LF Mk 9 is too much unfortunately. What do you suppose would happen to Spit usage (already the most common plane) if a version was added that at normal arena altitudes was 10 MPH faster, had much faster acceleration, and could climb 800 FPM better?
It sucks too, because it leaves the Spit guys stuck flying a 1942 plane, abeit the world's best 1942 plane.
J_A_B
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Actual ENY values:
SpitIX: 13
190D9: 18
Only N1K2J has a lower value being still unperked: 10
It seems SpitIX is significantly closer to be perked than 190D9.
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Kieran newbies have SpitV, C205, 109F, Ki161, La5, F6F, etc as good choices.
Two questions then:
1. Why don't YOU fly these planes if they are so good?
2. What is your k/d against these aircraft while in your D9?
You are not an average AH pilot, you cannot be experiencing anything other than a minor annoyance with Spitfires of any kind (I don't, and I am terrible). I fly quite a few of the planes you mentioned (F6F5 most) and can tell you when planes like your D9 want to leave, they leave. You control the fight. You determine when it starts and ends. I can't imagine what advantage you feel you need that you don't already have.
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Urchin,
Yes, the Spitfire LF.MkIX is optimized for low altitude, however I don't think that it should be added as a freebie.
Due to the Spit's popularity and faster Spit, even just an LF.MkIX, would be bad for the environment in the MA. In this I agree with J_A_B.
I don't think that the performance of anything less than a Spitfire MkXIV justifies the usage that the Spitfire MkIX gets in the MA, but then I felt that the F4U-1C's capabilities didn't justify the ammount of use it got. The average player obviously puts a higher value on triats such as turning and Hispanos than I do. To me, speed is the single most important traint of a fighter if you want to kill while surviving.
I would like to see the following Spits added:
Spitfire MkIa (Free)
Spitfire F.MkXIV (30 Perk points, or so)
Spitfire MkXVI, bubble canopy (8 Perk points)
That would wrap up the Spitfires in AH, unless they wanted to add the Ta152 concurrent F.21. I don't see any reason to do so however.
MANDOBLE,
I am confidnet that I do know the Fw190D-9 and that is why I find your statements so far out of whack with reality. I fly more Fw190D-9 missions than I do Spitfire missions, IIRC.
The Spit's ENY is lower than the Fw190D-9's simply due to its useage in the MA, not its capabilities. The Fw190D-9's ENY does not reflect its usage (which would put it around an ENY of 25 to 30) because that would be tantamount to giving free perks to the fans of very powerful, uncommon aircraft. The Fw190D-9's ENY reflects its capabilities.
You are obviously a zealot and as such I do not think that anything productive can come of continuing to address your "points".
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Originally posted by Karnak:
To me, speed is the single most important traint of a fighter if you want to kill while surviving.
That explains everything. Top level speed means nothing if you cant aim your weapons at a mobile target. Top level speed means nothing if you have not enough fire power to kill that target. This remenbers me an imaginary duel between Mig31s and Hornets with only guns. Your choice would be a Mig, right?
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PLEASE!!! PERK IT!!!!
Then I will recieve more perk points when I get kills in it than if it wasn't perked :)
Less dweebs flying it=more Perk points for the more serious LA7 drivers.....
LLB OUT!!!!!
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for me the La7 hasnt been the bane to my enjoyment the way as the Nik was or the F4uc was at their height of usage.
the LA7 is simply not as commonly used as either of the aforementioned types.I cannot understand the hatred of the LA7 myself.Sure they are tough to beat but if it is modeled correctly and isnt being used anywhere near the 25%(?) of total aircraft use the F4uc had (which caused it to be perked) then why should it be perked?
for almost 14 months the P51d had total control in AH.Nothing could catch the damn thing if flown correctly.So the La7 is ruling the roost down low now?? well get over it.Unless you can prove this model is incorrect and is therefore winning more because of this fact OR they are flooding the arena to the point of saturation it should be left WELL ALONE.
I was constantly 'annoyed' by the old Nik before it was adjusted.Now its not such a hot prospect its use has lessened considerably (or at least from the amount i see it has imo).I now do not consider perking the nik necessary.The f4uc is now being used about as much as a 109g6 so if you see it its actually an unusual fight again :). Never thought id say that back when we requested it to be perked !
The decision to perk it was a good one imo.La7 just isnt 'there' yet to be perked.
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No, we need another Spitfire. Well, actually replace the Spit V we have with a LF Mk Vc. *grins* Then you'll really hear the cries to perk a 1941 (or was the Mk Vc early 42?) ride. Clipped wing turning goodness with 4, yes count 'em, FOUR Hispano spiffy-spraying laser cannons! muahahahahahaha!!!! :D of course I could fit it with 8 brownings or 2 hispanos and 4 brownings instead, but why would I when I can 4 x dweebspano yer butt!!! ;)
anyways, perk the Spit IX; I fly the Spit V as my fighter. Perk the La7; I've just been using it for attack sorties recently (covers distance between fields on Uterus very nicely. Drop bombs on town, strafe town a few times, kill defenders; it works well!) I can do the same in a Tiffie, just not get there as fast, but do more damage when I do get there. ;) Hmm, I think I will... Only Spit V's, Tiffies, and Mossies for me this tour! RAF all the way! woot! :cool: (save for Hellcat/Corsair JABO sorties off the CV)
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IMO, the speed is not the problematic factor with the La7. A Typhoon is as fast or almost as fast as the La. The main advantage of the La is its brutal instant acceleration in any plane. If you create a La6.5 with same acceleration and maneuverability than La7 but with a top speed limited to 340 mph at sea level, the problem wont be solved.
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Sorry to say, I put the G10 in about the same class. Take the high-speed roll and turn away and replace with slow speed turn and roll and you have a G10.
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La7 is a monster down low... I'm 20/4 in it in attack roles this tour. Been killed by a Spit IX (I was greedy going for a 7th kill), a M3, M16 (if anything needs perking, this is it! lol, j/k), and Panzer (he was camped by the town killing our troops, think it was Voss and he got 12+ kills).
It could be perked if it performed like that at all altitudes. I just don't see perking it based on excellent acceleration alone. If so, perk anything that has Hispanos, perk anything that climbs excellent, perk anything that turns excellent, etc. :)