Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: capt. apathy on November 22, 2003, 09:34:13 PM
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quit a few successful killings that they(or others on their police force) may have gotten away with.
(they call it "unlawful imprisonment", I 'd call it atempted murder)
here (http://www.msnbc.com/news/996834.asp?0cl=cR)
SASKATOON, Saskatchewan, Nov. 22 — Two white policemen picked up Darrell Night outside his uncle’s apartment one January before dawn. There had been a quarrel, and Night, who had been drinking, was shouting obscenities.
NIGHT, a member of the Cree Nation, recalls thinking the cops were going to throw him in the drunk tank, but they drove straight out of town. They took him to an isolated spot three miles outside Saskatoon.
“Get the [expletive] out of here, you [expletive] Indian,” he recalled one officer saying, and they slammed his face on the hood of the trunk, took off his handcuffs and left him standing alone on a riverbank.
“I’ll freeze out here,” he yelled. “What’s wrong with you guys?”
A voice echoed in the cold: “That’s your [expletive] problem.”
Night watched the car drive off, its lights trailing out of sight. The wind was whipping on the night of Jan. 28, 2000, in Saskatchewan, where there can be sudden blizzards and temperatures may drop to 40 degrees below zero. He was wearing a T-shirt, jeans, a jeans jacket and running shoes.
“I thought I was dead, but something told me, don’t give up,” he recalled. So Night started walking.
Night said he would have been “one more dead Indian,” a victim of what had become known as the “midnight blue tour,” a body found on the outskirts of Saskatoon, with no witnesses and only a dead man’s story to tell. But he managed to walk several miles to the Queen Elizabeth power station, where a watchman let him in from the cold
The case has now triggered questions about others who had been found frozen to death on the edge of town.
One day after Night’s ordeal, the body of Rodney Naistus was found shirtless in the same area on the edge of Saskatoon.
On Feb. 3, 2000, the body of Lawrence Kim Wegner was found near where Night had been dropped off. Wegner, who was found wearing a T-shirt, socks and jeans, was last seen alive early on the morning Jan. 31. Both Wegner and Naistus appeared to have frozen to death. By some accounts, they died within hours of being released from police custody, according to police investigations and public inquests.
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Sounds like attempted murder to me also. That sentence is a freaking joke.
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I'd also think a re-opening of all 'found frozen on the edge of town' cases.
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Cops who does things like these, should be jailed for rest of their pitiful life.
I don't care if a cop manages to kill a guy by shooting him in the leg, when attempting to stab the officer or is high on drugs and trying to kill the cop by hands... but when they commit murders, like that.. thats worse than a murder by some whacko.
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Cops seem to forget they work for us.
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They've been doing that for decades out west.:eek:
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You see now why I get "bent" about African Americans whining all the time.
When the American Indian Is still getting Screwed.
I am white but sometimes I look back on our history and shake my head
:confused:
We have made a habit out of diplacing and abusing whole races of peoples .
I think we are beyond that now I hope.
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why didn't he rub two sticks together and make a fire?
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Originally posted by john9001
why didn't he rub two sticks together and make a fire?
Why didn't you'r daddy wear a rubber:aok
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the part theat kinda stunned me was-
Morris Bodnar, Munson’s attorney, denied the drop-off was motivated by racism. “There have been other individuals around Saskatchewan who said they have been dropped off by different police forces,” he said. “Some are aboriginal. Some are not aboriginal. I have my doubts that race was a factor.”
he's basicly willing to concede that his clients (and other cops aparently) had done this as almost a policy.
but seemed it important to get out that his client wasn't a racist, as other 'undesirables' had been disposed of like this before and not all of them where indians.
is that suposed to be some kind of deffence?
it's not so bad that they tried to kill this indian, because some of those they had killed before were not indians?
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Originally posted by Fishu
Cops who does things like these, should be jailed for rest of their pitiful life.
I don't care if a cop manages to kill a guy by shooting him in the leg, when attempting to stab the officer or is high on drugs and trying to kill the cop by hands... but when they commit murders, like that.. thats worse than a murder by some whacko.
Cops to some degree or more or less think on this level. They not only ARE the law, but they are also above it. Cops suck. Cops murder people. Cops sell dope. Cops speed. Cops wave badges and expect to get away with it. Most do.
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Most do.
when I was younger I used to believe the same thing.
now I tend to think that the A-holes just stand out more.
if you think about it, the guy who isn't breaking laws has most of his police contact through the a-holes. unless he's a victim calling for help, the good cops have no real reason to come into contact with him.
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Originally posted by mrblack
You see now why I get "bent" about African Americans whining all the time.
When the American Indian Is still getting Screwed.
I am white but sometimes I look back on our history and shake my head
:confused:
We have made a habit out of diplacing and abusing whole races of peoples .
I think we are beyond that now I hope.
GeeZus Mr Black you hit the nail on the head, and my thoughts exactly.
You should see how badly the Canadian govn't has screwed over the Indians and eskimos. :aok
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I hope these pigs gets but ****ed every day in prison.
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Originally posted by Lizard3
Cops to some degree or more or less think on this level. They not only ARE the law, but they are also above it. Cops suck. Cops murder people. Cops sell dope. Cops speed. Cops wave badges and expect to get away with it. Most do.
Another stunning generalization about all police drawn from an isolated situation. :rolleyes: Funny I don't recall meeting you much less letting you determine how or what I think. :rolleyes:
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while his generalisation of all cops wasn't fair, you can't really say this is an isolated situation.
so while you can't say all cops are bad, this incedent says alot about the cops in that area. even the ones who didn't become involved in this.
they pulled up 5 examples in just the last year. and it seemed to be an exceptable policy in the police force there.
so exceptable in fact that the deaths made it past an inquiry even though they had several deaths occuring with in hours after these people had been in custody.
if 5 people had been found dead and I was the last to see them alive, and they had last been seen riding in my car, I would think the police wouldn't have any problem conecting me to the deaths. and what would you bet I'd get charged with something more than "wrongful imprisonment'.
I'd think in order for that to go unconnected the investigators would have had to be trying very hard not to make that conection.
it also seems not to be just this one town but SOP in much of western canada-
Torque----- They've been doing that for decades out west.
for this to go on long enough to become common knowledge and still no one bothers to do anything about it until someone survives (and leaves them in the uncomfortable possition of not being able to turn their heads this time) would make you think just about every cop in the area would have had to be an acomplice on some level.
I guess my point is that while I'm sure not every cop in the area did this sort of thing they did allow their buddys to get away with things they'd never let slide if the rest of us done them.
it makes it pretty hard not to paint all cops with the same brush when this sort of thing is allowed to go on.
bottom line is that you can blame most of the hatered people develope for cops on cops covering for other cops when they break the law.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
it makes it pretty hard not to paint all cops with the same brush when this sort of thing is allowed to go on.
This supposes that all police officers have some intrinsic knowledge of what happens in an isolated area of the world. Funny, I don't recall there being a requirement for ESP so that I would know what is happening thousands of miles away. Just how could I have done anything about it? Why am I to be painted with the same brush then?
This generalization is just an excuse to display a prejudice.
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This generalization is just an excuse to display a prejudice.
true, and eventually I outgrew the prejudices I had when I was younger.
and while I wouldn't expect cops in other parts of the world to know what cops in canada are doing, it seems obvious to me that those in that area should have seen it. did even 1 bother to try and "blow the wistle" on this policy?
and it's not as if this is a isolated event when it comes to cops (not the leaving people for dead. the turning your head when fellow officers break the law, abuse people, or violate basic rights).
as I've said I don't think that all cops do this sort of thing. I don't even belive most do. but it does happen, and it happens on many levels. from backing up a lie as to how evedence was obtained, to failure to stop a beating (as in the rodeney king case, where again reports of police abuse went unchecked until absolute proof was brought forth so a minimal reaction couldn't be avoided.
when cops turn their head to this sort of thing it becomes more and more accepted and new cops think it's "the thing to do"
I've seen departments where abuse has become acepted, in my teen years I spent quite a bit of time in inedpendence missouri. if your hair went down past your collar you could just about gaurentee a few cracked ribs in the elevator on your way up.
if I was a cop and thought I was getting a bad rap, I'd devote some time to exposing these abuses, and ending the careers of the people who are causing the problems. but it would seem from thisside of the fence more effort is spent on covering up and looking away.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
true, and eventually I outgrew the prejudices I had when I was younger.
You continue to post as though you have not gotten over the prejudices. If you outgrew your youthful prejudices then why do you continue to paint all police with the same brush as you did here?
Please understand that I am not defending the officers who are guilty of the alleged acts in the article. I do not think they deserve to be treated any differently than aby other criminal. I'd be happy to stand in line to show them the way to the prison. They have stained the reputation of all of us. I'm more likely to be contemptuous than you towards them. I also realize they do not represent all of police.
As to the other bodies in the article, they are investigating to determine if there is a relationship to the alleged situation in the article. You on the other hand have already convicted them for all acts.
Perhaps that is where we see it differently. I am content to let the investigation proceede and the trial to determine guilt. You have already moved on to sentencing in your posts and convicted the rest of us as well for not stopping it when we weren't there or even aware of it. See the point?
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If you outgrew your youthful prejudices then why do you continue to paint all police with the same brush as you did here?
where do I do that?
as I've said I don't think that all cops do this sort of thing. I don't even belive most do.
I've even pointed out to others that it's not reasonable to blame most cops (if you read my responce to lizzard3) for the action of a few.
As to the other bodies in the article, they are investigating to determine if there is a relationship to the alleged situation in the article.
no, actually the deaths where already investigated and been found inconclusive.
The inquests into the deaths of Naistus and Wegner found that the circumstances were “inconclusive.” The report on Wegner said that he was found in a field and the cause of death was hypothermia from prolonged exposure, “by what means: undetermined.”
now, as a cop,
if several people had turned up dead from exposure, dressed in a condition that they couldn't have walked to where they where and survived to get there, had no vehicles around to have taken them there, and where all last seen alive with me in my car, after being a pain in the prettythang for me at work,
how hard of a time would you have making a conection? I bet the case would not be at all inconclusive.
do you really think others on the force up there didn't, either by comision or omision, cover for these guys?
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Originally posted by Maverick
Another stunning generalization about all police drawn from an isolated situation. :rolleyes: Funny I don't recall meeting you much less letting you determine how or what I think. :rolleyes:
OK, we've now met the ONE sterling knight in shining armor. Woopie!
My generalizations we're not drawn from this one incident. They we're drawn from observations made during my time on this earth. Sure, there are good cops out there, I'm sure. In general I would say not though. Most do think they are above the law. How many tickets have you gotten out of Maverick? Are you the one cop who doesn't automatically flip out the badge when he gets pulled over?
Here's another generalization. Cops are by and large just high school jocks who were to stupid to go to college and get a certificate to teach PE, much less get a real job and work for a living. Cops are what you get when you put stupid people in positions of power. Rampant abuse.
Some abuses are minor, but others are glaring. Most cops are rude. Some are brutal. Some cops are criminals on the other side of the badge.
I assume your saying that since your a good cop, most are? Or are you?
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Lizard with an attitude like that its no wonder you have a hard time with cops.
Out of curiosity what do you do for a living?
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lizard, FYI college is now a common requirement for the job. A particular major is not necessarily required nor is a 4 year degree required. In my department you must have at least 2 years to be considered, period.
Yes I do say that most cops are pretty damn good. I would wager that I have met far more than you have and have a far better grasp of the situation. The real crying shame is that the pool to draw on for new officers is the same gene pool that you came from. It means that someone with an attitude like yours has to be weeded out but nothing is perfect.
Frankly I find you ignorance and extreme prejudice to be more than a bit over the top. You really should grow up someday.
apathy, read the article. The investigation is checking to see IF there is a connection. Again with a blinding leap of intuition you have made the connection already and are assured that the bodies are all related to the same situation. Wait for the investigation to be concluded. If they are related you may dance with glee all you want. :rolleyes:
As to why I feel you have branded all cops the same,. read your own posts. I have already quoted you once on it.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Lizard with an attitude like that its no wonder you have a hard time with cops.
Out of curiosity what do you do for a living?
Who says I have a hard time with cops? I'm not stupid.
What does what I do for a living have to do with this discussion?
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Originally posted by Maverick
lizard, FYI college is now a common requirement for the job. A particular major is not necessarily required nor is a 4 year degree required. In my department you must have at least 2 years to be considered, period.
Yes I do say that most cops are pretty damn good. I would wager that I have met far more than you have and have a far better grasp of the situation. The real crying shame is that the pool to draw on for new officers is the same gene pool that you came from. It means that someone with an attitude like yours has to be weeded out but nothing is perfect.
Frankly I find you ignorance and extreme prejudice to be more than a bit over the top. You really should grow up someday.
apathy, read the article. The investigation is checking to see IF there is a connection. Again with a blinding leap of intuition you have made the connection already and are assured that the bodies are all related to the same situation. Wait for the investigation to be concluded. If they are related you may dance with glee all you want. :rolleyes:
As to why I feel you have branded all cops the same,. read your own posts. I have already quoted you once on it.
College requirement of at least 2 years is common? Common in your dept., but, are you generalizing? Thats probably not common. No degree is required, just 2 years of attendance? Grades? Just show up for 2 years, well, that weeds out allot.
So, according to you, most cops are good. Good what? Good cops? And that means what? Arresting perps? Or are you saying they're good people? If they are good people, do they consider civi's people, or just the fraternal order people people? Do they treat people with respect? Obey all laws as if upholding the law was there job? Do they as well as you feel that laws are those thing with which they use to keep the "bad people" down? Or is the law a sacred trust that they're privledged to uphold? You know these cops so well, answer some of those questions about your co-workers and yourself. Did you answer the question about tickets? I musta missed it. Its not an evil thing to get out of a ticket, but it is indicitive of the attidtude that permeates your profession.
OK, you need to explain this a bit further.
"The real crying shame is that the pool to draw on for new officers is the same gene pool that you came from. It means that someone with an attitude like yours has to be weeded out but nothing is perfect."
What do you mean by "weeded out"? Capped? Man, I could take that as a threat, but since I KNOW you didn't mean that, I'll just let it slide(unlike a cop huh?) and think you mean that if people like me applied for cop jobs we should not be accepted. Huh, thats what you meant. Of course thats pretty stupid as no one(most people) with an attitude like mine would never even entertain the thought of being a cop. You knew that didn't ya? Which brings us back to...OH, it WAS a threat.
So, now we've established what kinda cop a "good" cop is, what woulda "bad" cop have done? Find some nefarious means to track me down and cap me for even thinking cops suck.
Whats funny is, my attitude and thinking isn't over the top as you say. Its relatively common. There are many who go ALLOT further than I do with their views. I'm all growed up.
I didn't just get where I'm at from making stuff up. I like most people form there views from experience and observation of the world around them. To discount my views as some bad genetics gone amuck is to bury your head in the sand and wish a prefect world with a perfect department.
Go suck a jelly doughnut.
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lizard, weeded out as in not allowed to be a police officer. You really should seek professional help.
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Originally posted by Maverick
lizard, weeded out as in not allowed to be a police officer. You really should seek professional help.
Guess you can't answer any of those questions honestly so you choose not to. That says alot.
Mayhaps you should do some soul searching. A professional could help you with that.
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There is something missing in this story. I have been following this case pretty much since the beginning. These two cops were scapegoats. Nothing more.
These drop offs were darn near unwritten procedure for years in Saskatoon and other municipalities in the Province. If they wanted to punish those responsible they should have done so at the top and worked their way down.
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My beef with police men is as soon as they get their uniform on they stop being humans.
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So who here has learned an important lesson about getting drunk, standing outside, and shouting obscenities late at night?
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Originally posted by Lizard3
College requirement of at least 2 years is common? Common in your dept., but, are you generalizing? Thats probably not common. No degree is required, just 2 years of attendance? Grades? Just show up for 2 years, well, that weeds out allot.
Lizard, I get the feeling you're not in college. You can't just show up in class and expect to make it past 3 months. The university has a way of weeding out the ineffective students. "Weeding out" is a common college student term for the process of identifying the less-than-the-best. Either you can cut it, or you can't. If you can't, then you're out. It doesn't mean you're bad, it means you just weren't good enough.
Most major metropolitan law enforcement departments now require a 2-year Associate's degree, some even require a 4-year Bachelor's degree. Other departments that post a minimum of a high school education have an unofficial requirement of a 2-year degree, meaning you may meet the bare minimum of education required by the department, but the other applicants have their Associate's degree and you don't, so guess who doesn't make it past the initial interview and gets weeded out.
So, according to you, most cops are good. Good what? Good cops? And that means what? Arresting perps? Or are you saying they're good people?
Cops have to pass both a background check and a psych evaluation, plus written exams and physical tests of endurance, strength, and flexibility. So yeah, cops as a whole are going to be better people than, say, the workers at the telephone company.
OK, you need to explain this a bit further.
"The real crying shame is that the pool to draw on for new officers is the same gene pool that you came from. It means that someone with an attitude like yours has to be weeded out but nothing is perfect."
What do you mean by "weeded out"? Capped? Man, I could take that as a threat, but since I KNOW you didn't mean that, I'll just let it slide(unlike a cop huh?) and think you mean that if people like me applied for cop jobs we should not be accepted.
Yes, you would not be accepted as a police officer. Your inability to recognize a volitile situation and defuse it with either words or action would be cause for your elimination from the application process. And you would probably not pass the psych evalution, either.
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Originally posted by Torque
You should see how badly the Canadian govn't has screwed over the Indians and eskimos. :aok
What? :confused:
They pay no taxes and have ancestral rights they should not have and we are screwing them?
Some of them who claim ancestral fishing rights are now taking lobsters.
How the hell do you think they were taking lobster before we arived since they had no fishing equipment.
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Originally posted by gofaster
Yes, you would not be accepted as a police officer. Your inability to recognize a volitile situation and defuse it with either words or action would be cause for your elimination from the application process. And you would probably not pass the psych evalution, either.
Sorry, I thought I made myself clear. For the record, I would never under penalty of death ever entertain the idea of joining your club.
I recognize volitile situations, its not my job to defuse them and if your saying that thats what coppers do, I've yet to see it. Mav seemed to have visions of brooms sticks dancing in his head.
So, in parting you state that I would fail a cops psych eval. I'm relieved to say the least, but I'm sure you didn't intend it as a compliment. Your the second one to drop the hint that because I am so bold as to state my feelings and experiences on this subject that I'm somehow nuts. Typical. Do you fellas not understand that alot of people don't like you, don't trust you and think your profession is pretty much a waste of money. Clerks with cars. I am generalizing of course. Not all cops are bad, and not all departments are wastes.
I've seen cops dealing drugs. I've seen cops confiscate drugs for there own personal use. I've heard of cops tipping off there dealer friends so they don't get busted. I've seen cops harass people for kicks. I lived in a town where a cop pulled over a sweet innocent girl engaged to be married in less than a month. Who strangled her and dropped her off a bridge into a ravine. Why? For kicks. He wanted to see what it felt like. I guess the weeding out process missed one huh?
For all I've personally seen, there is 100's more that I've heard of. For all I've heard of, I'm sure there's 1000's more. But I digress...
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lizard,
The reason I didn't bother to post more was that there is no reason to do so. You seem to have a real problem with authority and police are the most obvious target. There is no hope for me to convince you otherwise so it's a waste of time to do so. You have already displayed you prejudice and lack of maturity and I have no reason to indulge you further. One of the nicest parts of being retired is that I no longer have to put up with this type of behaviour from someone. When I was on the job I had to put up with people with attitudes like yours and not say or do anything. Since I can now be free to associate with whom I want I don't need to waste my time in situations like this. It's like the crank caller who would dial the police desk and scream obscenities and other trash. Now I get to hang up.
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“Get the [expletive] out of here, you [expletive] Indian,” he recalled one officer saying, and they slammed his face on the hood of the trunk, took off his handcuffs and left him standing alone on a riverbank.
“I’ll freeze out here,” he yelled. “What’s wrong with you guys?”
A voice echoed in the cold: “That’s your [expletive] problem.”
Obviously, this is not a true story. Everyone knows Canadians are much more polite than this story would indicate.
"Please leave our vehicle noble Native American." then the officers gave the man a touque and some back bacon.
This version is much more plausable.
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Originally posted by Maverick
lizard,
The reason I didn't bother to post more was that there is no reason to do so. You seem to have a real problem with authority and police are the most obvious target. There is no hope for me to convince you otherwise so it's a waste of time to do so. You have already displayed you prejudice and lack of maturity and I have no reason to indulge you further. One of the nicest parts of being retired is that I no longer have to put up with this type of behaviour from someone. When I was on the job I had to put up with people with attitudes like yours and not say or do anything. Since I can now be free to associate with whom I want I don't need to waste my time in situations like this. It's like the crank caller who would dial the police desk and scream obscenities and other trash. Now I get to hang up.
The reason you decided not to post more, then did is you can't answer the questions honestly and look yourself in the mirror. Your the one that jumped into this thread and kept comin back. When it gets to rough, you decide to hide behind your retirement like you've hidden behind a badge most of your life.
Instead of saying, NO, I don't think I'm above the law, I never got out of tickets because I'm a cop, I never did anything I'm ashamed of or thats illegal. Instead you call me immature, say I have a problem with authority and try to dispell my thoughts and experiences as the rantings and raving of a lunny.
Thing is, I'm not ranting, raving or making things up. You wanna check? I believe the Pigs name was Powell, but I may be wrong. It was in Poway California in the mid-eighties. That one you can check. Thing is, there are many cases like that from big to small. Most don't get reported. I've been harrassed by a town cop 10 miles out of his jurisdiction on the interstate 6 times in 8 months. NOOOO, its not a problem. Never happens.
So instead of trying to make me out to be some bad person just because I've got an insight into cops mentality, just do like you said you were going to and stfu. Go hide behind your retirement...or answer a few of the questions.