Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: mrblack on November 23, 2003, 10:51:15 PM
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Iraqi Teens Drag Bloodied U.S. Soldiers
1 hour, 24 minutes ago
By MARIAM FAM, Associated Press Writer
MOSUL, Iraq - Iraqi teenagers dragged two bloodied U.S. soldiers from a wrecked vehicle and pummeled them with concrete blocks Sunday, witnesses said, describing the killings as a burst of savagery in a city once safe for Americans.
Another soldier was killed by a bomb and a U.S.-allied police chief was assassinated.
The U.S.-led coalition also said it grounded commercial flights after the military confirmed that a missile struck a DHL cargo plane that landed Saturday at Baghdad International Airport with its wing aflame.
Nevertheless, American officers insisted they were making progress in bringing stability to Iraq (news - web sites), and the U.S.-appointed Governing Council named an ambassador to Washington — an Iraqi-American woman who spent the past decade lobbying U.S. lawmakers to promote democracy in her homeland.
Witnesses to the Mosul attack said gunmen shot two soldiers driving through the city center, sending their vehicle crashing into a wall. The 101st Airborne Division said the soldiers were driving to another garrison.
About a dozen swarming teenagers dragged the soldiers out of the wreckage and beat them with concrete blocks, the witnesses said.
"They lifted a block and hit them with it on the face," said Younis Mahmoud, 19.
It was unknown whether the soldiers were alive or dead when pulled from the wreckage.
Initial reports said the soldiers' throats were cut. But another witness, teenager Bahaa Jassim, said the wounds appeared to have come from bullets.
"One of the soldiers was shot under the chin and the bullet came out of his head. I saw the hole in his helmet. The other was shot in the throat," Jassim said.
Some people looted the vehicle of weapons, CDs and a backpack, Jassim said.
"They remained there for over an hour without the Americans knowing anything about it," he said. "I ... went and told other troops."
Television footage showed the soldiers' bodies splayed on the ground as U.S. troops secured the area. One victim's foot appeared to have been severed.
The frenzy recalled the October 1993 scene in Somalia, when locals dragged the bodies of RANGERS killed in fighting with warlords through the streets.
In Baqouba, just north of Baghdad, insurgents detonated a roadside bomb as a 4th Infantry Division convoy passed, killing one soldier and wounding two others, the military said.
In Baghdad, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt confirmed the Mosul deaths but refused to provide details.
"We're not going to get ghoulish about it," he said.
The savagery of the attack was unusual for Mosul, once touted as a success story in sharp contrast to the anti-American violence seen in Sunni Muslim areas north and west of Baghdad.
In recent weeks, however, attacks against U.S. troops have increased in Mosul, raising concerns the insurgency is spreading.
Simultaneously, attacks have accelerated against Iraqis considered to be supporting Americans — such as policemen and politicians working for the interim Iraqi administration.
On Sunday, gunmen killed the Iraqi police chief of Latifiyah, 20 miles south of Baghdad, and his bodyguard and driver, American and Iraqi officials said. No further details were released.
The assassination occurred one day after suicide bombers struck two police stations northeast of Baghdad within 30 minutes, killing at least 14 people. Gunmen on Saturday also killed an Iraqi police colonel protecting oil installations in Mosul.
In Samara, about 75 miles north of Baghdad, Iraqi police said six U.S. Apache helicopter gunships blasted marshland after four rocket-propelled grenades were fired at the American military garrison at the city's northern end. One Iraqi passer-by was killed in the air attack, police said.
In Kirkuk, 150 miles north of Baghdad, a bomb exploded at an oil compound, injuring three American civilian contractors from the U.S. firm Kellogg Brown & Root. The three suffered facial cuts from flying glass, U.S. Lt. Col. Matt Croke said.
KBR, a subsidiary of Halliburton, also has a significant presence at Baghdad's Palestine Hotel, which was rocketed by insurgents Friday, wounding one civilian.
"We all know that Americans are being threatened," Croke said.
Kimmitt told reporters in Baghdad that witnesses saw two surface-to-air missiles fired Saturday at a cargo plane operated by the Belgium-based package service DHL as it left for Bahrain.
The plane was the first civilian airliner hit by insurgents, who have shot down several military helicopters with shoulder-fired rockets.
DHL and Royal Jordanian, the only commercial passenger airline flying into Baghdad, immediately suspended flights on orders of the coalition authority.
Despite the ongoing violence, U.S. officials insisted the occupation was going well.
"If you look at the accomplishments of the coalition since March of this year, it has been enormous," Marine Gen. Peter Pace, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said in Tikrit.
Pace is touring Afghanistan (news - web sites) and Iraq.
Also Sunday, Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari said veteran Washington lobbyist Rend Rahim Francke was appointed Iraq's ambassador to the United States. Francke, an Iraq native who has spent most of her life abroad, led the Iraq Foundation, a Washington-based pro-democracy group, and has helped plan Iraq's transition from Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s rule.
The appointment will renew the diplomatic ties between Washington and Baghdad severed in 1990 when Saddam invaded Kuwait.
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Ignorrant savage pieces of human chit!
Kill em all take the dam oil and be done with it!
Let's stop bullchitting the world here.
We what the OIL!!
Democracy in the middle east will NEVER happen.
First off because these people don't posses the gray matter to understand the concept.
Bush take off the KID gloves and be the evil killing b astard you must be to win this war on terrorisom.
Sorry people but when I read stories like this I want to take my 46 year old arse over there and KILL evry single raghead I see.
Our American troops deserve better than this from the people there helping.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
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You are awesome.
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but mr bush said these people like us and want democracy. how could he be wrong?
Untill their religion is brought into the 21st century those people will never want to be free or have a democracy. It just dosnt work in some cultures.
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Originally posted by Animal
You are awesome.
You do know there is a cure for acne now:D
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
but mr bush said these people like us and want democracy. how could he be wrong?
Untill their religion is brought into the 21st century those people will never want to be free or have a democracy. It just dosnt work in some cultures.
Froggy I tend to agree with you on this one.;)
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between your sporadic outbursts of racism and bigotry, I've had time to rethink my opinion of you mrblack... I have come to the conclusion that you're still a moron. :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok and :aok
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Originally posted by Octavius
between your sporadic outbursts of racism and bigotry, I've had time to rethink my opinion of you mrblack... I have come to the conclusion that you're still a moron. :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok and :aok
And I really have no idea what you are.
Still trying to figure out if you'r a man or woman???
Or maybe just a whiny little man with a big internet attituide.
That In real life would be asking me If I would like my order "biggy" sized :rofl :rofl
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Just as we cant judge Islam based on the actions of the hijackers, we cant judge Iraqi opinion based on these actions.
I believe installing a democratic government is a noble cause - but if we find that the majority of public opinion sides with these two teens - I cant think of any reason to stay.
This action troubles me - and Im a Bush/War supporter.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Just as we cant judge Islam based on the actions of the hijackers, we cant judge Iraqi opinion based on these actions.
I believe installing a democratic government is a noble cause - but if we find that the majority of public opinion sides with these two teens - I cant think of any reason to stay.
This action troubles me - and Im a Bush/War supporter.
Yeppers I think It (the war) has cost enough lives:(
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This discussion exemplifies the basic understanding that in order to diagnose clinical insanity a patient must be guilty of performing the same task over and over expecting different results every time.
In order to usefully determine the success or failure of the policy of the bush admin I believe that you might as well just wait until:
1) 5 years on the ground in Iraq/Afganistan has elapsed
or
2) A democrat is elected president
In 5 years one will obviously know for a near certainty whether all the blood and sacrifice has been well devoted. The existance of a stable self sustaining government
or
If a democrat is elected president, prepare for the whole Iraq/Afganistan operation to be hastily concluded and a general retreat sounded against terrorism. A form of surrender by submission. If you must.
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Originally posted by mrblack
And I really have no idea what you are.
Still trying to figure out if you'r a man or woman???
Or maybe just a whiny little man with a big internet attituide.
That In real life would be asking me If I would like my order "biggy" sized :rofl :rofl
Look the only thing you have to offer is a few nasty comments usually regarding the annihilation of an entire people, childish insults, or a combination of both. You never offer any real argument to debate. I have yet to see you actually analyze any situation and piece together anything resembling a clear picture.
Now unless you want to debate something, I suggest you re-read your posts and look for clues as to why Animal thinks you're awesome. Here's a hint:
Let's stop bullchitting the world here.
We what the OIL!!
Democracy in the middle east will NEVER happen.
First off because these people don't posses the gray matter to understand the concept.
Bush take off the KID gloves and be the evil killing b astard you must be to win this war on terrorisom.
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Wonder if you would still have that opinion if you had close friends serving in iraq right now, as i do, Saurdaukar. Us being there is pointless, those people like their dictator, and if they ever got the balls to overthrow saddam they would have put another dictator in place.
There will be another dictator in iraq within 10 years if we stay or leave.
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Originally posted by Octavius
Look the only thing you have to offer is a few nasty comments usually regarding the annihilation of an entire people, childish insults, or a combination of both. You never offer any real argument to debate. I have yet to see you actually analyze any situation and piece together anything resembling a clear picture.
Now unless you want to debate something, I suggest you re-read your posts and look for clues as to why Animal thinks you're awesome. Here's a hint:
Sorry dude but I have a distaste for any people that is so stupid as to bite the hand that is helping it!
They are stupid and they smell funny!
And I don't think that they are worth 1 American life:aok
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Animals.
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To kill you'r enemy in battle is one thing.
But to smash in there already dead or dying corpes is just plain evil and sick.
I had friends that where Rangers during samolia although they where not there and the images of them being drug naked thrue the streets is still freash in my mind.
So for It to be happening again Is just a little to much.
I like many grew up during veit nam.
And I remember hearing on TV about the body counts and such.
And If not for Nixon pulling us out who knows I might have went there.
And this Is starting to smell like the same chit.
I HATE Muslims and I don't care if you don't like it.
I am a 46 Yo jewish man and I have my reasons.
And this crap just ads fuel to the fire.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
Until their religion is brought into the 21st century those people will never want to be free or have a democracy. It just doesn't work in some cultures.
I spent 6 months over there, this statement just about sums it up. There are a LOT of people over there who say they want democracy but they either don't know how to fight for it or don't want it bad enough. We can't force it on them, it doesn't work that way. Until the populace decides they are fed up with these chicken **** terrorists and take action, our servicemen will continue dying.
On another note, I was recently offered a chance to join a construction team as an instrument tech to go over and help build/repair a few powerplants there. They could not, by agreement, allow us to carry weapons so it wouldn't have mattered what they were willing to pay, I wasn't going. Not to mention my wife's reaction when I mentioned this. :rolleyes: Sheesh, I was just askin'. So now we'll have unarmed civilians running all over the place who will need protection along with the troops already in place who also need watching over.
I hate to say this but the old analogy about a room full of monkeys and a football comes to mind when I think about this.
Things do need to change and soon! Taking the gloves off is my first choice but how can we do that and not alienate ourselves from the innocent people we are trying to liberate?
I can only pray our leaders will make the right decision and soon.
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Originally posted by Twist
Things do need to change and soon! Taking the gloves off is my first choice but how can we do that and not alienate ourselves from the innocent people we liberated?
I can only pray our leaders will make the right decision and soon.
Well I think We should care less what we look like to them!
our first and only concern should be the safety of our people military and civillian.
And On a further note.
Some of you may think that I'm a salamander.
Well thats ok LOL I am LOL.
But I CARE about every single young service persone over there
And It could be YOU someday If this crap esculates(draft).
So don't bust my balls to much for caring about young Americans.
I know that I'm about as PC as a fart in church.
But thats just my way.
I love my country as I'm sure you do as well.:aok
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Originally posted by mrblack
I HATE Muslims and I don't care if you don't like it.
I am a 46 Yo jewish man and I have my reasons.
And this crap just adds fuel to the fire.
I personally do not care for the Christian hating fanatics that call themselves muslims. I have however, in my short life, met several devoted muslims who I call friends. One went so far as to present me with a gift of the Koran, so that I might read and understand his beliefs. I wanted to reciprocate with a bible but he told me he had already read the entire thing in college, then proceeded to quote at random just to prove it. He was a captain in the Royal Saudi Air Force.
I can't say that I hate them but I wouldn't turn my back on them either. So many are uneducated and brainwashed into thinking western culture is the spawn of satan himself. Heck, I feel this way too sometimes when I flip channels and forget to skip MTV.
:p
It won't happen overnight but these people can be brought out of the stone age eventually. How much are we as a nation willing to sacrifice for others to enjoy the freedoms we are so richly blessed with now? Why don't we ask some of the soldiers over there right now how they feel? Are they ready to quit and come home? I'll bet they aren't.....
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If a draft is institued, I know that Canada will receive another influx of young people. I know that I for one wouldn't go if I were drafted. It's not because I don't have a sense of patriotism, or a sense of duty. It's because I refuse to go fight for oil and someone's political agenda in a country that neither wanted our help nor wants us invading their country. If I were drafted to join a team to search for OBL, would I? In a second, but he's not a priority any longer. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Munkii
If a draft is institued, I know that Canada will receive another influx of young people. I know that I for one wouldn't go if I were drafted. It's not because I don't have a sense of patriotism, or a sense of duty. It's because I refuse to go fight for oil and someone's political agenda in a country that neither wanted our help nor wants us invading their country. If I were drafted to join a team to search for OBL, would I? In a second, but he's not a priority any longer. :rolleyes:
Well put and you make a very good point!
What ever happend to OBL?
As far as running from you'r duty as an American?
Well thats something you and you'r family would have to talk over.
After all It Is you'r life and you should have the choice to use It as you see fit.
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Don't want us there?
Back in '91 a friend and coworker almost lost his life in Kuwait/Iraq, the story of his close call never gets old.
He usually follows that story by talking about the reaction of the locals, both military and civilians, when the troops arrived to claim another recent battlefield. They practically worshipped them! There were Iraqi soldiers crying and falling all over our guys, thanking them for coming, begging them to help free their families from the current regime. Although we could have, and should have, we did not, because we had no backing from the UN at the time. Taking over Iraq was not part of the resolution we we're operating under.
Let's not judge an entire country based on the actions of a few fanatics, who probably enjoyed a lavish lifestyle under the old regime or are being paid well for attacking our troops now. We're not just fighting Iraqi's, we're taking on finacially backed fanatics from all over the world! There is no way they are going to let democracy into their little corner of the planet freely, they will lose the control they now have over these people.
We we're warned beforehand this would not be a cakewalk.
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Well Twist Maybe so but in this case we need to bring a bigger stick If you will.
Knock these clowns back into the stone age.
And find out who Is funding these jerks.
It just seems to me like we are offering up our troops like lamb to the slaughter!
I mean good Lord can't the Brass do better than this?
I think Bush screwd the pooch when he declarde hostilities over.
hell they aint over far from It.
Like my Grandpa used to say Crap or get off the pot!
lets go at this full bore or for God's sake bring our people home.
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Originally posted by Twist
Don't want us there?
I'm not sure if that was directed at me, but if it was, I never said I don't want us there. IMO though, I do not think it should be a draft war, if we're going to Iraq to liberate them, or whatever the official reason we are there for now, do it with the armed forces that volunteered to join. If we can't raise enough troops to join through regular recruitment, then we shouldn't be there.
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Originally posted by Munkii
I'm not sure if that was directed at me, but if it was, I never said I don't want us there. IMO though, I do not think it should be a draft war, if we're going to Iraq to liberate them, or whatever the official reason we are there for now, do it with the armed forces that volunteered to join. If we can't raise enough troops to join through regular recruitment, then we shouldn't be there.
Dude at the rate we are losing people and the need for man power over there
Who knows?
I think bringing back the draft would be the last thing Bush would do.
But make no misstake If he needed to He would.
We are really only fighting on one arena right now.
Can you imagine If we where fighting on two or three?
Hell we are short of some MOS possitions now.
If they try to do too much with too little they will need a draft.
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Originally posted by mrblack
Well Twist Maybe so but in this case we need to bring a bigger stick If you will.
Knock these clowns back into the stone age.
And find out who Is funding these jerks.
It just seems to me like we are offering up our troops like lamb to the slaughter!
I mean good Lord can't the Brass do better than this?
I think Bush screwd the pooch when he declarde hostilities over.
hell they aint over far from It.
Like my Grandpa used to say Crap or get off the pot!
lets go at this full bore or for God's sake bring our people home.
I personally like the 'bigger stick' idea. Then again, being the mean spirited republican that I am, I think those terrorists captured should be hung in the market squares with a bleeding pig tied to their persons. But that wouldn't make for good TV now would it? Oh my, what would people think. I have taught my son to return 10 blows for every one blow given him in a fight, we should be doing the same.
Trace the money back, absolutely!
Hostilities have ended as far as the 'war' is concerned. We are no longer using armored divisions and air sorties to fight so that part is done. I think the term 'hostilities' was misused in this case, that part could very well drag on for years.
If it wasn't for the political game being played out in the news and the 'court of world opinion' I bet we would see a lot more bellybutton kickin' taking place over there.
Sorry munkii, I thought you were saying they didn't want us there. My bad. :aok
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It's almost 2am, gotta turn in, thanks for the chat.
:aok
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Originally posted by Twist
If it wasn't for the political game being played out in the news and the 'court of world opinion' I bet we would see a lot more bellybutton kickin' taking place over there.
And that is what Is getting our young people killed!:mad:
A bunch of Fat a sses in Washington p ussyfooting around.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
Wonder if you would still have that opinion if you had close friends serving in iraq right now, as i do, Saurdaukar. Us being there is pointless, those people like their dictator, and if they ever got the balls to overthrow saddam they would have put another dictator in place.
There will be another dictator in iraq within 10 years if we stay or leave.
I know a good number of people in both Iraq and Afghanistan right now, one of whom was KIA.
I appreciate that we are both concerned for the safety of our friends and family overseas, but I disagree that our protective emotions should be shaping our opinion of the 'reason' for this deployment.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
I know a good number of people in both Iraq and Afghanistan right now, one of whom was KIA.
I appreciate that we are both concerned for the safety of our friends and family overseas, but I disagree that our protective emotions should be shaping our opinion of the 'reason' for this deployment.
Geezus man you got a speech writer LOL.
I mean so much said with so little .:aok
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:aok
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Perhaps you boys should write to your president and tell him that from now on you only want your country to invade decent, civilized countries who's populace won't put up a fight and will have the common decency to be properly cowed by a display of US aggression. Such countires may be fairly thin on the ground, though.
Ironically the pople on this board who froth most at US deaths (whilst paradoxically seeming to be in favour of invading Iraq in the first place), are probably exactly the sort of people who'd be out in the woods, slitting the enemies' throats or taping enemy jeeps blow up, if a foreign country ever invaded the US.
Strongly patriotic people, in other words.
Certainly the rabble-rousing "kill the ragheads" rhetoric is very translatable into Iraqi terrorist speak:
"I HATE Americans and I don't care if you don't like it.
I am a 46 Yo Iraqi man and I have my reasons.
And this crap (insert 'collateral damage' incident here) just ads fuel to the fire."
"Sorry people but when I read stories like this I want to take my 46 year old arse over there and KILL evry single American I see."
"Then again, being the mean spirited talib that I am, I think those Americans captured should be hung in the market squares with a bleeding pig tied to their persons."
What sort of twisted terrorist scum would say such stuff, eh? ;)
"I have taught my son to return 10 blows for every one blow given him in a fight, we should be doing the same." - That's a great one - sounds like it comes straight out of the Koran. ;)
Hmmm and there was me thinking the US & Iraqis had very little in common, culturally... maybe you do have common ground.
US deaths are an inevitable side effect (hmm perhaps that should be "collateral damage") of US policy. No other country forced the US to invade. There's still no sign of the Weapons of Mass Distract... er ... Destruction. Any country that gets invaded by a foreign country will have people resist the invaders. The US would. The UK would. No matter how much people might have hated the last leader. Were the US invaded tomorrow and a new regime installed, would those who voted for the Democrats resist the invaders as much as those who voted for the Republicans? I'd go for "Almost certainly".
Besides - and this may be the crux of the problem - compared to Iraqi civilian deaths, US troop deaths are like tears in rain.
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Well said -dead-!
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"Sorry dude but I have a distaste for any people that is so stupid as to bite the hand that is helping it! They are stupid and they smell funny! "
heh. Nothing like a solid show of support for Boroda's opinion the US is carrying on the "white man's burden" :)
"And I don't think that they are worth 1 American life"
I agree with you there 100%. But the driving forces behind this war believe something there is worth the deaths of others don't they?
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"US troop deaths are like tears in rain."
Really? Tell that to VOR.
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Originally posted by -dead-
Perhaps you boys should write to your president and tell him that from now on you only want your country to invade decent, civilized countries who's populace won't put up a fight and will have the common decency to be properly cowed by a display of US aggression. Such countires may be fairly thin on the ground, though.
Ironically the pople on this board who froth most at US deaths (whilst paradoxically seeming to be in favour of invading Iraq in the first place), are probably exactly the sort of people who'd be out in the woods, slitting the enemies' throats or taping enemy jeeps blow up, if a foreign country ever invaded the US.
Strongly patriotic people, in other words.
Certainly the rabble-rousing "kill the ragheads" rhetoric is very translatable into Iraqi terrorist speak:
"I HATE Americans and I don't care if you don't like it.
I am a 46 Yo Iraqi man and I have my reasons.
And this crap (insert 'collateral damage' incident here) just ads fuel to the fire."
"Sorry people but when I read stories like this I want to take my 46 year old arse over there and KILL evry single American I see."
"Then again, being the mean spirited talib that I am, I think those Americans captured should be hung in the market squares with a bleeding pig tied to their persons."
What sort of twisted terrorist scum would say such stuff, eh? ;)
"I have taught my son to return 10 blows for every one blow given him in a fight, we should be doing the same." - That's a great one - sounds like it comes straight out of the Koran. ;)
Hmmm and there was me thinking the US & Iraqis had very little in common, culturally... maybe you do have common ground.
US deaths are an inevitable side effect (hmm perhaps that should be "collateral damage") of US policy. No other country forced the US to invade. There's still no sign of the Weapons of Mass Distract... er ... Destruction. Any country that gets invaded by a foreign country will have people resist the invaders. The US would. The UK would. No matter how much people might have hated the last leader. Were the US invaded tomorrow and a new regime installed, would those who voted for the Democrats resist the invaders as much as those who voted for the Republicans? I'd go for "Almost certainly".
Besides - and this may be the crux of the problem - compared to Iraqi civilian deaths, US troop deaths are like tears in rain.
well said, but me thinks the people doing this are not all iraqes. g.w.b. said bring it on and now the people who hate the usa are doing that. but bush choose the battle ground and that is the homeland of the many of them. it brings to mind the old movie "red dawn" except we are not the invaded. i know if some country invaded montana, i would pity the fool who i would capture. because the state montana didnt sign the geneva convention accords. we are not obligated to treat them humanely nor would i. expect no mercy.... i wouldnt give any nor talorate those who would. i was aginst this war from the start because i knew what was goining to happen. and it happening now.:mad:
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Great ideas MrBlack :rolleyes:
That would be a great way to turn the UN against you.
Including Great Britain.
Instead of letting your emotions control you, try controlling them.
Try looking at things from there perspective instead of your own biased one, which is obviously not valid for them.
The Iraqis had little before the war, then most of the infrastructures went down (power, water...) after you came and you expect these people to all love you.
They have less then they had before damn it.
Once the rebuilding is done and they have power, running water and jobs then they will have more.
These people do not see that, they see there own misery.
They do not know what it will be like in a democracy because they have never known democracy.
These people need something to hold on too.
Hope is a powerfull thing.
Try grasping basic concepts before posting your crap please.
War is the greatest of all crimes; and yet there is no aggressor who does not collar his crime with the pretext of justice.
Gotta love Voltaire. :)
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Originally posted by Westy
"US troop deaths are like tears in rain."
Really? Tell that to VOR.
Gladly - I'd like to think he'd understand my underlying sentiment too (but maybe I'm just being an optimist). Certainly his CO (I guess) Major General David Patraeus seems a humane guy - and on the ball about winning the Iraqis over. Which is probably the reason Mosul has been relatively safe up til now.
I don't wish VOR or any of the troops ill, but I also extend such civility to the Iraqis too, and especially to the poor civilians who are caught in the middle of it and have been for the last 12 years. Of course troop deaths count - but so do all the other deaths that the US Occupation government are not counting.
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To the likes of Twist and Mr Black who favour the big stick and the gloves off approach. I would recommend a book I have called 'Brits - The War Against the IRA'. by Peter Taylor. It is part of a trilogy about the Northern Irish conflict which describes the British forces attempts to combat the IRA. The current situation in Iraq has many parallels with Northern Ireland but has the potential to be a lot worse.
The big stick doesn't work. All it would result in is the whole Iraqi population turning against the Americans What does work is a slow burning campaign of counter intelligence and specialist units designed to track down terrorist cells. It means training Iraqis to do this work and maintaining a cadre of informers in the ranks of the terrorists.
The Brits learned that the hard way and I'm sure they will be quick to help. But they had one priceless advantage they were fighting a small group with limited support in a country they hadn't invaded six months earlier. (Six hundred years earlier actually! It was a very long war !)
You all need to get used to the idea that this is going to be a long bloody war and it is a war. The fantasy that American troops will be off the streets by next June is just that a fantasy. By the time this is over children even now playing on the streets of Chicago or Dallas will die as soldiers fighting a vicious guerrilla war in a country they are barely aware of now.
It needn't happen, as Col Hans Von Luck a distinguished German Panzer officer in WW2 observed when he fought Americans. 'The Americans were able to evaluate their experience and through flexible and unconventional conduct in a battle convert it into results'.
That's what's needed in Iraq.
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Originally posted by -dead-
Gladly - I'd like to think he'd understand my underlying sentiment too (but maybe I'm just being an optimist). Certainly his CO (I guess) Major General David Patraeus seems a humane guy - and on the ball about winning the Iraqis over. Which is probably the reason Mosul has been relatively safe up til now.
I don't wish VOR or any of the troops ill, but I also extend such civility to the Iraqis too, and especially to the poor civilians who are caught in the middle of it and have been for the last 12 years. Of course troop deaths count - but so do all the other deaths that the US Occupation government are not counting.
I agree 100%
If you treat them well then you have the morale high ground.
If you make attacks that cause needless civillian deaths then you have lost that high ground.
Which would reinforce the terrorists claiming that the US is moraly corrupt.
You cant say it is wrong (killing innocents) when terrorist do it and go do it yourself claiming it is right.
That would be extremely stupid and moraly corrupt.
Treating them well will prove they are full of you know what.
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-Dead- I know you did not mean any ill will towards VOR or anyone else over there. I saw you're post and several weeks worth of reading posts by people minimizing American soldiers deaths by comparing them to the larger numbers who've died in robberies or traffic accidents kind of reached a peak with me.
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My view on this IS should we be there? I don't know.
But we are there so what now?
We must do all that we can do to insure the safety of our troops.
Are there going to be casulties yes It Is a war.
But the way In wich these soldiers are dying is most diturbing to me.
I believe preventable as well.
Like I said before we may not agree on eachothers polotics but I hope we can agree on we are losing WAY to many young people over there:mad:
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Hey guys, you cant go home before you find the WMD...
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Wow...paraphrased me completely out of context and managed to change the entire meaning of my posts in which I stated what I would like to see happen followed by a reality check and what we need to be doing.
Run, don't walk to the nearest liberal media venue of your choice -dead- , there is a job opening with your name on it.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by -dead-
Perhaps you boys should write to your president and tell him that from now on you only want your country to invade decent, civilized countries who's populace won't put up a fight....
Who said anything about France?
:p
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See the difference between your drivel/ posts and the one from VOR who is actually there instead of typing/spewing from a madhouse like you are.
grow up, Imbecile... i think you'll find the translation easily.
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mrblack is a 46 year old l33t sn1P3r dood apparently.
To me he comes across as a 13 year old without an ounce of maturity, reason or intelligence. But maybe I'm being too harsh...
... there are plenty of 13 year olds out there who are able to string a coherent argument together.
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The Iraqi's are doing the same thing that Norway, France, Belgium etc...etc did when they got invaded by the germans many years ago.... Making their stay an unplesant one and giving the message that they are not welcome. Its as easy as that, and if anyone had guessed that they would be welcomed with open arms by everyone then to bad.
Those that sympathised with the germans in Norway during the war or helped them got jailed or shot after the war. Those that opposed the germans are now heroes.
I bet that if the US was invaded by anyone, you would do ANYTHING to get rid of them and you would also use "unsivilised" means of getting rid of them to.
Oh, and using words like "raghead" etc is just childish.
(oh and before you blow your top, im NOT saying that the US or British are nazis in any way so cool down ):)
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
Untill their religion is brought into the 21st century those people will never want to be free or have a democracy. It just dosnt work in some cultures.
:aok
Actually, they're in the XIVth islamic century :D
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How about we leave Iraq then reinvade them. Iraq III
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Originally posted by Saintaw
See the difference between your drivel/ posts and the one from VOR who is actually there instead of typing/spewing from a madhouse like you are.
grow up, Imbecile... i think you'll find the translation easily.
Does you'r mommy know you'r playing grown up?
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Originally posted by Dowding
mrblack is a 46 year old l33t sn1P3r dood apparently.
To me he comes across as a 13 year old without an ounce of maturity, reason or intelligence. But maybe I'm being too harsh...
... there are plenty of 13 year olds out there who are able to string a coherent argument together.
And you'r opnion matters how?
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U cant compare Norwegian resistance with Iraqi resistance. Norway consisted of ONE folk. In Iraq there are many clans, different religions, different cultures. If the US troops would leave now there would only be chaos, anarchy, death read civil war. I'm sorry for the dead of many troops and i can understand the anger MrBlack feels !!! also I have to say u cant move ur troops back home now cause then the entier world would make the USA responsible for the death of milliions.
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Im comparing it because the Iraqis attacking US and other coalition troops are doing it to get them out of their land and sovreign territory. Basicly its no different to the resistance of Norway or any other nation trying to get rid of an invader.
Only difference is that those opposing the coalition in Iraq are called terrorists because that is a word that causes outrage by the public opinon and gives Bush and his buddies good PR and justification for what they are doing.
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Hmmm i wouldnt say that they want the Allies to get out of their land cause I think one cant lump together fanatic muslims, Saddam supporters and followers. Its a whole different story and therefore much more complicated.
I would say there are many reasons why these guys (p.e. terrorists from other countries) are fighting the US:
1. Cause the USA stands for the prime enemy, the total foe image of fanatic muslims and they use the situation to combat their prime enemy outside the USA cause its so easy right now. These would be terrorists from all over the world.
2. Cause they dont want (in their eyes) heathenish capitalistic invadors occupying their land. These would be Iraqies.
3. Cause they love Saddam and want him back. These would be Iraqies.
4. Cause they are plain dumb (dont have to be their fault to be dumb. Its often a matter of education i.e. IMO a terrorist is not born as one he's consulted to be one).
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If a draft is institued, I know that Canada will receive another influx of young people. I know that I for one wouldn't go if I were drafted. It's not because I don't have a sense of patriotism, or a sense of duty. It's because I refuse to go fight for oil and someone's political agenda in a country that neither wanted our help nor wants us invading their country. If I were drafted to join a team to search for OBL, would I? In a second, but he's not a priority any longer
You have no sense of patriotism.
You have no sense of duty.
Ever wonder why it's called "serving in the military" instead of "working for the military"? I doubt it. The military is not IBM or Burger King - you don't get it your way. Glad to see you're ready to fight the good fight if your kind of mission comes along though, tough guy. You'd volunteer to crawl through caves, knife clenched between your teeth to kill Osama, but serve in Iraq? Heavens no, what WOULD the gang at the coffee shop have to say about that? I'm not upset with you for having a different opinion than me, but to say you'd dodge a future draft and still claim to have a sense of patriotism and duty - it's just too much, man. If you do end up getting drafted in the future I'm sure you'll make a hell of a gym monitor until your Delta Force application is approved. If you're the type of kid we're losing to Canada if the call should come, I think we'll somehow manage without you.
Anonymous Military Member
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And this Is starting to smell like the same chit.
I HATE Muslims and I don't care if you don't like it.
I am a 46 Yo jewish man and I have my reasons.
And this crap just ads fuel to the fire.
My first job, when I was 16, was working at Swenson's. I vividly remember one day when a man and his two kids (one I recognized as a sophmore at my school, and understood him to be jewish) came in for some ice cream. At the time, they were the only customers in the store. Just as I began to take their orders, the father noticed my boss sitting in one of the booths tending to paperwork. My boss was a middle aged, muslim man of Pakistani decent, and really a decent guy. I heard the father proclaim to his kids, under his breath, that there was "a muslim!" (he played the odds, and he was right). From that point, the father became very ancy, as if the building had just caught fire, or as if he had to pee really bad, and apparently I couldn't scoop the ice cream fast enough (admittedly I wasn't the best ice cream scooper in the business, only mediocre at best, although I had only been on the job for a few weeks). Ironically, they waited around, albeit very impatiently, until they got their ice cream, paid, and left.
I was kind of confused with the whole situation, and wasn't quite sure how to react when it became obvious what the trouble was. I figured it was best to just complete the job and let it all slide, as it didn't appear that my boss had noticed what was happening. Having grown up in the North Bay, it wasn't all that common to hear people remark on the physical or religious backgrounds of others, unless you were an adolescent and just messing around with friends, as me and some of my asian friends would harp on each other regularly, and even today, almost ten years later, we still throw in the occasional inappropriate comment for the sake of comedy. For some reason, none of us could seem to legitimize a burning hatred for one another.
What I found interesting was the disparity in how the kids reacted to the situation as opposed to their father. They were clearly more concerned with the ice cream than with the fact that a muslim was in the building. They responded to their father's agitation by becoming rather nervous themselves, in a manner that suggested a deadline for getting ice cream had appeared only seconds away. This in turn placed me under some pressure, as one who understands the value of ice cream to one's taste buds, I didn't want these kids to leave empty handed. As a result of the father's impatience, my scooping ability was being tested to the extreme, and upon reflection, the scoops they got were a little smaller than normal, but in this case, something was better than nothing at all. In any event, the moral of the story is that world conflict can be solved with sufficient quantities of ice cream.
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Aye....but the key factor was the Freedom Scoops.:aok
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Originally posted by Ossie
My first job, when I was 16, was working at Swenson's. I vividly remember one day when a man and his two kids (one I recognized as a sophmore at my school, and understood him to be jewish) came in for some ice cream. At the time, they were the only customers in the store. Just as I began to take their orders, the father noticed my boss sitting in one of the booths tending to paperwork. My boss was a middle aged, muslim man of Pakistani decent, and really a decent guy. I heard the father proclaim to his kids, under his breath, that there was "a muslim!" (he played the odds, and he was right). From that point, the father became very ancy, as if the building had just caught fire, or as if he had to pee really bad, and apparently I couldn't scoop the ice cream fast enough (admittedly I wasn't the best ice cream scooper in the business, only mediocre at best, although I had only been on the job for a few weeks). Ironically, they waited around, albeit very impatiently, until they got their ice cream, paid, and left.
I was kind of confused with the whole situation, and wasn't quite sure how to react when it became obvious what the trouble was. I figured it was best to just complete the job and let it all slide, as it didn't appear that my boss had noticed what was happening. Having grown up in the North Bay, it wasn't all that common to hear people remark on the physical or religious backgrounds of others, unless you were an adolescent and just messing around with friends, as me and some of my asian friends would harp on each other regularly, and even today, almost ten years later, we still throw in the occasional inappropriate comment for the sake of comedy. For some reason, none of us could seem to legitimize a burning hatred for one another.
What I found interesting was the disparity in how the kids reacted to the situation as opposed to their father. They were clearly more concerned with the ice cream than with the fact that a muslim was in the building. They responded to their father's agitation by becoming rather nervous themselves, in a manner that suggested a deadline for getting ice cream had appeared only seconds away. This in turn placed me under some pressure, as one who understands the value of ice cream to one's taste buds, I didn't want these kids to leave empty handed. As a result of the father's impatience, my scooping ability was being tested to the extreme, and upon reflection, the scoops they got were a little smaller than normal, but in this case, something was better than nothing at all. In any event, the moral of the story is that world conflict can be solved with sufficient quantities of ice cream.
WTF was that all about?
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Originally posted by Twist
Wow...paraphrased me completely out of context and managed to change the entire meaning of my posts in which I stated what I would like to see happen followed by a reality check and what we need to be doing.
Run, don't walk to the nearest liberal media venue of your choice -dead- , there is a job opening with your name on it.
:rolleyes:
The paraphrasing you and putting it into a different context was kinda the point of the exercise. It wasn't journalism or meant to be journalism. Indeed, a cynic might say in this respect it shares more in common with Fox News than the liberal media ;). However, it's a different thing: I like to call it "satire". I believe some conservatives have heard of this concept. Look in to it sometime.
Still, nice try with the liberal media jibe. Next you'll be telling me to move to a communist country if I don't like your point of view. :D
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It's called irony Mr. Black. It often also involves subtlety, something you wouldn't grasp too readily. You were impressed with Saurdauker's communication skills which derive from clarity of thought, another foreign concept.
kbman
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Originally posted by kbman
It's called irony Mr. Black. It often also involves subtlety, something you wouldn't grasp too readily. You were impressed with Saurdauker's communication skills which derive from clarity of thought, another foreign concept.
kbman
And you'r bable means nothing at all to me.
I see things in black and white ,right or wrong no grey area.
I believe being PC Is being a chickenchit Poosy!
Be a man speak you'r peice If It makes you "un popular"
So be it you held to you'r ideals and belifes.
Fore Without those you are not a man but a sheep of society.
I simply Believe In AMERICA and all of her people.
True Americans that is.
And what I mean by true Americans Is this.
Those who directly of indirectly (by relitive) have served this great country.
Either by serving in battle to defend her or in the building of her infastructure.
In other words NO Illegell alliens.
The fact that you disagree with me Is good!
It shows me that you have conviction and pride in you'r self.
I appluade you for that.
We can i think agree to disagree on some things.
But I should hope have common ground on caring about America
:aok
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Hehehe, Mr Black.:aok
A slightly darkish Dennis the Menace character never the less you seem to be genuine. :D
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Originally posted by Torque
Hehehe, Mr Black.:aok
A slightly darkish Dennis the Menace character never the less you seem to be genuine. :D
LOL thank you I think:confused:
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I love my country Mr. Black, I just don't believe that requires me to hate other people to do so.
kbman
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Originally posted by kbman
I love my country Mr. Black, I just don't believe that requires me to hate other people to do so.
kbman
I only Hate those that Hate and want to KILL me.
thats where I draw the line .
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And you'r bable means nothing at all to me.
I see things in black and white ,right or wrong no grey area.
I believe being PC Is being a chickenchit Poosy!
Be a man speak you'r peice If It makes you "un popular"
So be it you held to you'r ideals and belifes.
Fore Without those you are not a man but a sheep of society.
I simply Believe In THE REICH and all of her people.
True ARIANS that is.
And what I mean by true ARIANS Is this.
Those who directly of indirectly (by relitive) have served this great country.
Either by serving in battle to defend her or in the building of her infastructure.
In other words NO Illegell alliens.
The fact that you disagree with me Is good!
It shows me that you have conviction and pride in you'r self.
I appluade you for that.
We can i think agree to disagree on some things.
But I should hope have common ground on caring about THE REICH
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This may be fodder for a new thread, but,
Advocating the enforcement of immigration law makes you a nazi? :confused:
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Right, those "Illegell Aliens" are surely "stealing your jobs" etc... time for the REVOLUTION, take the brown shirts out of your closet!
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I think your rhetoric is a little extreme there Saintaw.
I advocate a easy guest worker program, so that some Mexican can come here to work and wouldn't die of heat and asphixiation locked in a box trailer in the Sonoran desert.
If we were enforcing our immigration law, the 19 "students" who ended their residency on Sept 11, 2001 would have been deported prior to the act.
These are not facist views, respecting international borders is a well established principle.
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Wasn't replying to you sir... just pointing out how simplification of any matter can/will lead to trouble.Some poeple (read homo erectus above) here just push the right button as far as I am conscerned(sp?).
We have our share of imigration problems over here too (Belgium seems to be the "promissed land" for a lot of North-Africans ... not that I care, they are mostly doing jobs that I wouldn't personaly take...).
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lol
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WTF was that all about?
I think it was a brief examination of the inverse relationship between a burning hatred, and ice cream.
But if all goes well, I should be over there around this time next year. It should be interesting to get a first-hand glimpse of the situation.