Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: LePaul on November 25, 2003, 10:32:01 AM
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...from todays BangorDailyNews online (here in Bangor, Maine USA)...
Two WWII fighter planes will remain submerged
PORTLAND - Two World War II fighter planes at the bottom of Sebago Lake since a training accident in 1944 will remain there, a federal judge ruled Monday.
Historic Aircraft Restoration Corp. found one of the sunken planes in July through the use of sonar images and a remote-controlled underwater video camera.
The company sued for permission to salvage the Corsairs out of Sebago Lake, Maine's deepest. The state and the British government, whose two pilots died in the crash, objected.
U.S. District Judge George Z. Singal said it's not his place to decide.
Part of the company's argument is under "the law of salvage" and "the law of finds," both of which fall under the broader designation of "admiralty law." Federal courts have exclusive jurisdiction in admiralty cases.
Singal ruled that admiralty law does not apply in the case because Sebago Lake is not navigable for federal purposes.
"Sebago Lake is considered a 'great pond' " he wrote, "and the Lake, its contents and the submerged land underneath are held in trust by the State of Maine for the public. From approximately 1830 until 1870, it was possible to navigate from Sebago Lake to the Atlantic Ocean via the Cumberland & Oxford Canal. However, for well over a century, Sebago Lake has been essentially landlocked and navigation is limited to other connected bodies of water within Maine."
Singal rejected an argument that any salvage operation falls under admiralty law.
By dismissing the case, Singal essentially ruled for the Maine and British governments.
Peter Hess, an admiralty lawyer who represented Historic Aircraft Recovery, said he expects the company will appeal to the U.S. 1st Circuit Court of Appeals in Boston.
"Historic Aircraft Recovery is the party that found this plane, the first one to find it and the only party that knows where it is and, fair to say, the only party that has the wherewithal and the experience to recover it and properly restore it so it can be enjoyed by the public at large," he said. "We hope to be able to do so."
Assistant Attorney General William H. Laubenstein III, said that "at this point, it appears the aircraft is at the bottom of Sebago Lake and property of the State of Maine."
The gull-winged planes are Voight Corsair F4U-1 fighters. They took off on May 16, 1944 from the Brunswick Naval Air Station.
The planes collided over Sebago Lake. Killed were Royal Navy pilots Vaughan Reginald Gill and Raymond L. Knott.
There are only a handful of F4U Corsairs in flying condition in the United States and they're worth roughly $1 million each, aviation experts say.
Even a muck-covered hulk is worth upward of $800,000 because the airplane can be restored as an original Corsair.
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There have been several similar incidents where private organizations have wanted to salvage US Navy planes for restoration and preservation, but the US Navy has refused to relinquish its claim on the equipment. Unlike the Air Force, which will strike a plane from its records after x number of years, or will otherwise permit private organizations to obtain samples of old aircraft for salvage and restoration under certain conditions and restrictions, the US Navy will maintain an on-going non-expiring right and title to vintage aircraft.
I remember one case where an old Grumman biplane fighter was located in deep water, in pristine condition, by a private firm with the intent of raising it, restoring it, and displaying it to the public. The Navy refused to give up its title to the aircraft (most likely so that it could recover the aircraft itself) and when the private firm returned to the site years later, the plane had been severely damaged by fishing nets and Navy divers and recovery wasn't economically viable.
I'm guessing that, in the case of the 2 Corsairs, since they were British planes, the private salvage firm hoped the British government would be more receptive to the preservation of its history and permit experts in aircraft salvage and restoration to recover the two planes.
For some intersesting stories about bungled salvage operations by the government, you should read some of the stories about the Glomar Explorer (http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/jennifer.htm).
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Originally posted by gofaster
For some intersesting stories about bungled salvage operations by the government, you should read some of the stories about the Glomar Explorer (http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/jennifer.htm).
I wouldn't categorize a salvage operation in the 70's that resulted in the recovery of ANYTHING from 17,000 feet as "bungled".
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Why block the salvage, though?
They're not surving any purpose at the bottom of a lake.
Even if this company restores and sells them, many people will get to enjoy these airplanes, and forget it if they end up in a museum.
I don't understand the governments position on this.
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they are coffins leave them alone.
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I wonder, did they try the obvious step of actually asking the British Govt?
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Originally posted by bigsky
they are coffins leave them alone.
Have to totally agree here. The navy considers sunken ships to be more of a tomb than an archive. This would also apply to aircraft as well I think. Its kinda like the whole burial at sea thing....again this just my opinion though.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Have to totally agree here. The navy considers sunken ships to be more of a tomb than an archive. This would also apply to aircraft as well I think. Its kinda like the whole burial at sea thing....again this just my opinion though.
Seems to make sense...if it were my grandads plane, though,
I'd rather have it salvaged, restored, and placed in a museum with his name on the cockpit. That would be more of a tribute in my humble opinion.
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Originally posted by Martlet
I wouldn't categorize a salvage operation in the 70's that resulted in the recovery of ANYTHING from 17,000 feet as "bungled".
The Discovery Channel actually ran a computer-animated documentary about the recovery of the Soviet submarine and how the failure to secure the load before extraction caused the hull to break apart and lose the materials inside. :( They got some of the sub, but not as much as they could have.
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I think it should be up to the family's of the Pilots ,ect ...
They go to extreame measures to bring family members back from Foriegn countrys for Burial . wouldnt the same apply here?
Id rather see the planes restored and flown or displayed .
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The best thing I should say that leave F4U-1 alone, because two pilot died on that fighter plane and it the best leave them like coffin what bigsky said. Also the another good idea that if the F4U crash into the sea and if nobody died on the plane, take it out and restore it. :aok
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Originally posted by Roscoroo
I think it should be up to the family's of the Pilots ,ect ...
They go to extreame measures to bring family members back from Foriegn countrys for Burial . wouldnt the same apply here?
Id rather see the planes restored and flown or displayed .
I think your mistaken a bit. yes now a days recovered bodies get shipped back home but back in that era they were put in the ground were they faught. There is an attitude of not leaving your dead ON the battlefield and to bring them back for proper burial.
In the navy, Especially back then it was a great honor to be burried at sea and I think thats why the navy keeps its pink slips on its property.
Although if they families gave the OK I dont know why the navy would have a problem with it. It would probably just result in a squable between the navy the state and the familys though
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Originally posted by gofaster
The Discovery Channel actually ran a computer-animated documentary about the recovery of the Soviet submarine and how the failure to secure the load before extraction caused the hull to break apart and lose the materials inside. :( They got some of the sub, but not as much as they could have.
Ahhh, I honestly was only going off the information you linked. Still, I think getting anything from 17,000 feet 30 years ago is impressive.
Originally posted by muckmaw
Seems to make sense...if it were my grandads plane, though,
I'd rather have it salvaged, restored, and placed in a museum with his name on the cockpit. That would be more of a tribute in my humble opinion.
agreed. I'd feel the same if it were me down there.
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If I were down there, what I would have to say is
"blub blub gurgle glug splash".
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How can a plane submerged for so long be restored(unless by restored they mean remilling and restamping all the components and simply borrowing the old paint scheme)? Wouldn't the metal fatigue alone pretty much necessitate what amounts to nothing short of rebuilding the plane from scratch? What percentage, in weight, would original parts represent in the restored aircraft?
Just curious, but it seems that just about every essential system/structural member would never be airworthy again.
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It depends on the oxygen content and the temperature of the water. Oxygen is the biggest killer, turning aluminum into aluminum oxide. Rubber, leather and the like that could be attacked by biologicals are undoubtedly long gone, although cold water slows that as well.
They have been harvesting timer from the bottom of Green Bay Wisc. for a while now, divers going several hundred feet down to salvage logs that have layed on the bottom for better that 150 years, and 95% of the wood is still in good shape. The wood is selling at a premium to furniture and guitar makers.
The planes could be in surprisingly good shape in low oxygen cold, deep water. On the other hand, they could be mush.
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Originally posted by gofaster
There have been several similar incidents where private organizations have wanted to salvage US Navy planes for restoration and preservation, but the US Navy has refused to relinquish its claim on the equipment. Unlike the Air Force, which will strike a plane from its records after x number of years, or will otherwise permit private organizations to obtain samples of old aircraft for salvage and restoration under certain conditions and restrictions, the US Navy will maintain an on-going non-expiring right and title to vintage aircraft.
I remember one case where an old Grumman biplane fighter was located in deep water, in pristine condition, by a private firm with the intent of raising it, restoring it, and displaying it to the public. The Navy refused to give up its title to the aircraft (most likely so that it could recover the aircraft itself) and when the private firm returned to the site years later, the plane had been severely damaged by fishing nets and Navy divers and recovery wasn't economically viable.
I'm guessing that, in the case of the 2 Corsairs, since they were British planes, the private salvage firm hoped the British government would be more receptive to the preservation of its history and permit experts in aircraft salvage and restoration to recover the two planes.
For some intersesting stories about bungled salvage operations by the government, you should read some of the stories about the Glomar Explorer (http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/jennifer.htm).
Actually the F3F was recovered by a buddy of mine, Joe "Der Bubba" Kennedy. He flew with JG 54 in AW and sent me a video
of first discovering the bird, then recovering it a couple years later.
It's true that the aircraft was damaged by fishing nets, but was recovered and restored. DB added a clip to the video
showing him and some friends visiting the hangar where the
restored aircraft was.
Lt Comm Kennedy was with the deep sea salvage unit at
North Island at the time, and they used one of their deep diving
subs to recover the Grumman from approx 3800 foot of water.
Apparently the F3F had ditched during a car-qual in 1940
while on final to the USS Yorktown. When the sub first saw it,
it still had the gear and hook down, but was inverted on the
ocean bottom.
Rino
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Does HT own a boat and some scuba gear? :D
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wasnt there a story about some B17s or somthing that had to ditch in icland or greenland. They got Iced over and forgotten about but were salvaged like 30 years later in pristine condition??? could just be a myth
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
wasnt there a story about some B17s or somthing that had to ditch in icland or greenland. They got Iced over and forgotten about but were salvaged like 30 years later in pristine condition??? could just be a myth
I think it's "Glacier girl" (a P38) and a B17 but it don't compare as there were not coffin.
http://p38assn.org/glacier-girl.htm
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
They have been harvesting timber from the bottom of Green Bay Wisc. for a while now, divers going several hundred feet down to salvage logs that have layed on the bottom for better that 150 years, and 95% of the wood is still in good shape. The wood is selling at a premium to furniture and guitar makers.
Same here in Florida, believe it or not. There is a company that salvages old-growth logs that have sunken in rivers and swamps. Even though the exterior wood is water-logged, it is still valuable old-growth timber; something about how the heart of the wood is too dense for water to penetrate and is impervious to rot. The newspaper ran an article about it, and how the lumber companies can't find 100-year old trees anymore because they were mostly all harvested during the "unlimited resources" days of industry. The only ones left are on federally-protected lands and private property (such as homeowners with 100-year-old oaks decorating their yards).