Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on November 25, 2003, 10:39:29 AM
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(http://home.comcast.net/~ripsnort60/big_cat.jpg)
Apparently this is the story:
How would you like to run into this about 30 min. before daylight, while you were walking to your deer stand, about 30 degrees, misty, overcast and dark!
IT WAS KILLED ON THE MONCRIEF RANCH APPROX. 20 MILES WEST OF FORT WORTH, BY A COYOTE HUNTER USING A CALL.
THE HUNTER IS 6' 2".
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Fark, its legal to shoot them...or was this s self defense thing?
I thought mostof the native big cats were protected federally?
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I don't believe cougars are federally protected. Most states treat them similarly to Black Bear. If they present themselves as a nuisance you can get permission to kill them. If they present themselves as a threat, you can kill them. In Oregon, you can also get tags to hunt them... though they've recently made it illegal to use dogs to hunt Cougar.
But... damn. That's one huge fricking Cougar.
MiniD
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Maybe local big cats-but that looks like a friggin' lion-are they sure that's a cougar?:eek:
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Theres a hunting season on them here. They made it illegal to hunt dogs on 'em for a couple of years, then the population exploded and starting threatening expansion developments, so they lifted the dog restriction.
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oh my god that is a big cougar.
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Thanks for the clarification...so he spotted that between him and his deer stand...wow. It must've taken a few shots to knock that beastie down
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Shoot it Ned! It's coming right for us! :D
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what a pussy :p
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I've never seen one that big, holy crap.
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Ok I don't live where those things live (biggest cat I'll see answers to name of Tiddles) and I therefore have never met one. I also have no problems with hunting - to quote another thread "Bambi tastes nice" :)
But I have some questions :-
1. They are a really beautiful animal (in my eyes) - is it necessary to kill them i.e. would that cougar have actively hunted that guy as prey or are they afraid of humans??
2. Are they at a level of being a vermin due to numbers increasing or is it us wating to live in their habitat?
3. If you killed one to protect yourself (and presumably weren't going to eat it) would you be proud or sad you had to do it??
I've got no problems with shooting stuff if its a serious threat or your going to eat it but is it necessary.
Go on ...... educate the English tree hugger :D
Sparks
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1. They are a really beautiful animal (in my eyes) - is it
necessary to kill them i.e. would that cougar have actively hunted that guy as prey or are they afraid of humans??
yes they would actually...but since this guy shot it he saw it...and normally you dont see em till its to late if there hunting you...but he might have just got lucky
2. Are they at a level of being a vermin due to numbers increasing or is it us wating to live in their habitat?
more of the second than the first...
3. If you killed one to protect yourself (and presumably weren't going to eat it) would you be proud or sad you had to do it??
proud...they are a serious threat when they want to be
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wtf vort? fix that post, it looks like garbage. took me a minute to figure out where you actually added comments. :)
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I would of gone up to it and pet it. I learned from Walt Disney that all animals are friendly and can talk.
-SW
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that cat doesnt have the look of being wild... too hvy...
No, you dont have to kill them........
No, the cat would not have hunted the hunter.... On rare occasions people have been attacked/hunted by mountain lions and in those few cases the reason has ALWAYS been attributed to hunger. Either the lions natuaral prey was hunted out by humans or the lions habbitat was encroached (sp) upon causeing it's normal prey to not be so normal..... this cat doesnt appear to be lackin in diet...
Should he feel proud? Well, this is a different sort of question. Most hunters believe nothing should be killed unless it is to be consumed.... Anyone can kill ANYTHING with a gun... you wanna feel proud?? hunt a cougar like that with nothing more than smarts and a pocket knife... if you live, maybe you have reason to feel proud.. some SOB that thinks this is sport, obviously feels no apathy... personnaly, i'd like to hunt the POS that thinks gunnin down any wild animal, just cause, is sport....... see if a few rds past them would bring a smile....
k
AoM
I bet that cat is even de-clawed................
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"... and as the guy's buddy snapped the picture, the sound of the shutter closing was apparently all it took to wake up the sleeping cougar."
I'm guessing he shot it in the chest, between the two front legs, which would imply that the cat was facing him.
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Photoshop? Cougars don't get that big, do they?
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Originally posted by Jack55
Photoshop? Cougars don't get that big, do they?
Doesn't look it, but I don't think the guy is 6' 2"...just look at the broom or garage door in the background for height reference, granted he is bending backwards alittle.
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you must have a small noodle if you feel like a cat is a threat to you if you have a gun. One shot into the air and its a mile away.
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Yeah, whatever. And if that shot just pisses it off, which has also been known to happen, while you're jerking around with your bolt-action, it's trying to open you up like a can of deviled ham.
If it's that close to you, you shoot it. Better the cat than the person.
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These attacks are becoming common in this part of the country, as urban areas expand. As an example, they teach you to hike with a friend in the Cascades, not because of humans, but because of mtn lions that tend to attack single hikers.
Just what are you going to do about human expansion? I'm sure Mother nature will take care of that eventually.
Heres one that happened two weeks ago:
An elk hunter in the Blue Mountains of southeast Washington fended off an attack by a cougar while starting to field dress a dead elk this week. Kirk Zehner, 33, of Walla Walla was bending over the carcass of an elk shot by a member of his hunting party, skinning knife in hand, when something hit him from behind, knocking him on to the carcass and driving his head into the ground. He instinctively struck at the attacker with his knife and heard a squeal. He attempted to get up but the animal pushed down on him again as it ran off. He saw only a grayish white blur leaving without another sound. When Zehner's hunting partners arrived on the scene in off-road vehicles to haul the elk out, they found him shaking and drawn but uninjured. About half the length of his knife was covered in blood from his strike into the attacking animal. The backside of his sweatshirt was torn and bloody. Zehner helped field dress the elk with his knife, then cleaned it and his sweatshirt with water. The incident occurred October 27 at about 7:30 a.m. in a brushy, steep ravine of the Lewis Peak area in northern Walla Walla County. Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) officers were notified of the attack October 29. WDFW officer Mike Johnson of Walla Walla led an investigation of the incident and is convinced it was a cougar that attacked Zehner, based on the clothing tear marks and the strength and silence of the animal. Although Johnson is not sure about the cat's motive, WDFW policy is to attempt to track and kill any cougar that attacks a human. A local hunter with cougar-tracking hounds was contacted, but scenting conditions were so bad two days after the incident that no immediate attempt was made to locate the animal. Zehner's stabbing of the animal could have fatally injured it, however, so hounds may be used to attempt to locate a carcass in the area to possibly learn more about the incident. Cougar attacks on humans are extremely rare. In North America, fewer than 20 fatalities and 75 non-fatal attacks have been reported during the past 100 years. However, more cougar attacks have been reported in the western United States and Canada over the past 20 years than in the previous 80. In Washington, there have been nine recorded attacks by cougars on humans over the past 80 years, (including one fatality in 1924), and five of those attacks have occurred during the 1990's.
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1. They are a really beautiful animal (in my eyes) - is it
necessary to kill them i.e. would that cougar have actively hunted that guy as prey or are they afraid of humans??
that guy wasn't likely to be attacked. not a 6'2" man, anyway.
they usually take out kids, or women joggers.
the number of attacks and 'near people' sightings have really gone up around here lately. more people moving out into the sticks.
plus with the dog ban we've had for several years we have a whole population that have never been hunted with dogs. the end result of that is the family dog walking the kids to the rural bus stop wont be able to chase it away from an easy meal.
we've had 3 or 4 instances in the last year where there have been signs (mostly tracks but a couple sightings) ofcougars stalking kids while they wait for the school bus.
btw-I'd love to run into that while packing a deer riffle.
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http://www.bigcats.org/abc/attacks/whattodo3.html
DENVER, Colorado, August 5, 2002 (ENS) - In January 2001, Frances Frost, 30, was killed by a mountain lion in Banff National Park while cross-country skiing alone on the Lake Minnewanka Loop. According to Park Chief Warden Ian Syme, "The cougar leapt on her back, bit her neck and I suspect that she may not even know what hit her." A healthy adult male cougar was later shot by wardens where her body was found.
In July 1997, Mark David Miedema, 10, was killed by a female cougar while returning from a hike to Cascade Falls on the North Inlet Trail on the west side of Rocky Mountain National Park, Colorado. The boy had raced ahead of his family on the well traveled trail to see if animals had eaten the peanuts he had left on the trail on the way up.
In April 1994, Barbara Schoener, 40, a long distance runner in excellent physical shape, was killed by female mountain lion in northern California on the American River Canyon trail in the Auburn State Recreation Area. No one observed the attack.
Mountain lions
Since 1970, across the United States, there has been an average of 14 mountain lion attacks per year on people, according to Tom Chester, an astrophysicist with an interest in recording mountain lion attacks.
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http://www.bigcats.org/abc/attacks/victoria.html
VICTORIA, British Columbia (AP) - A 61-year-old man was seriously slashed in a battle with a cougar in British Columbia, but managed to kill the animal with his pocket knife, officials said Friday.
The 100-pound cat leaped on Dave Parker from behind Thursday evening as he walked down a road a mile south of Port Alice, a village on Vancouver Island about 230 miles north of Victoria.
Conservation officer Ken Fujino said Parker was being mauled by the adult male but was able to reach his 3-inch knife. Port Alice Mayor Larry Pepper added Parker then slit its throat..
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I will say this...
If that cougar happened upon me and I had a gun... I wouldn't sit around waiting for him to "come right at me". I would shoot it.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Sparks
Ok I don't live where those things live (biggest cat I'll see answers to name of Tiddles) and I therefore have never met one. I also have no problems with hunting - to quote another thread "Bambi tastes nice" :)
But I have some questions :-
1. They are a really beautiful animal (in my eyes) - is it necessary to kill them i.e. would that cougar have actively hunted that guy as prey or are they afraid of humans??
Sparks
If they are hungry they will actively stalk and hunt humans or any other food source. Here in San Diego we have a large mountain lion population in the backhills and not a year goes by without hearing about a few hikers being either stalked and chased or attacked by mountain lions. A few years ago a lady was killed and partially eaten by mountain lions.
There was another incident here in San Diego where two hunters were out hunting for wild turkey and were using one of those hearing amplifiers. One of the hunters kept hearing what he thought was, according to him, a muscle car idling. When the hunters finally got to their spot, both of them started hearing the throaty rumbling sound. When one of the hunters looked around, he saw a mountain lion about 12ft away getting ready to pounce both hunters. The hunter managed to get a shot off and the mountain lion literally dropped dead at their feet. Turns out that the muscle car sound the first hunter initially heard was the mountain lion's breathing as it was stalking them from where they left their car to where they finally shot it. It had stalked them for 7 miles.
ack-ack
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dont move into the hills. There should be a law that allows mountain lions to kill and eat people, to keep morons from spreading into the wild.
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It was killed WHY?
Again people must accept what happends to them whe they venture into the animals turf!
When in the wilderness or the ocean we are no longer on top of the food chain Get over it:aok
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Can ya imagine how ticked Rip would be if that animal bled on his finely carpetted garage :p
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It was killed WHY?
Again people must accept what happends to them whe they venture into the animals turf!
When in the wilderness or the ocean we are no longer on top of the food chain Get over it
maybe the cat should have considered it before entering the hunters territory (effectively about 300yds.)
what happened to the hunter is he gets a great new rug.
judging from the pic, I'd put the hunter a rung or 2 above the cat on the foodchain.
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1. They are a really beautiful animal (in my eyes) - is it
necessary to kill them i.e. would that cougar have actively hunted that guy as prey or are they afraid of humans??
No, they do not hunt humans. Every once in a while a cougar will kill a human. Very very rare.
Most likely this cougar was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
The U.S. does not have a huge bio-diversity of animals. Its important to hold onto the species we have. Cats in the USA are pretty rare. Other than the zoo, I've never seen a bobcat, or puma, or cougar.
There was another incident here in San Diego where two hunters were out hunting for wild turkey and were using one of those hearing amplifiers. One of the hunters kept hearing what he thought was, according to him, a muscle car idling. When the hunters finally got to their spot, both of them started hearing the throaty rumbling sound. When one of the hunters looked around, he saw a mountain lion about 12ft away getting ready to pounce both hunters. The hunter managed to get a shot off and the mountain lion literally dropped dead at their feet. Turns out that the muscle car sound the first hunter initially heard was the mountain lion's breathing as it was stalking them from where they left their car to where they finally shot it. It had stalked them for 7 miles.
Story sounds a bit fishy to me. Why would a cat stalk two animals of comparable size, that do not look like prey (bipedal rather than quadraped).
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I love to point out the cougars to new parents at the zoo.
watch them stand in front of the cat holding a toddler.
the cats eyes follow the kid everywhere, like he's watching a porkchop.
cougar are very common in this part of the country.
I see signs of them almost every time I spend more than a day in the woods.
they are expert at hiding and know their environment well, if it allows me see it I figure it's no longer afraid of me and doesn't see 'man' as a threat it's now a danger if not me then to the next family who put up a tent. my conclusion is- valid target.
btw- the cat population hasn't gone up signifigantly since they stopped allowing people to run hounds on cats. but at least from what I see on the news, cat sightings close to schools, and other signs that they are loseing fear of people have at least trippled.
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That's not a Cougar, it's an African lion. Sheeesh, look at the tail. It looks to me like one of those Texas "sport hunts" where they place tame circus animals in a garage and let the "hunters" blast away before the poor animals get a chance to wake up even.
Texans suck.
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So, none of the critics here would shoot the cat if it was threatening you? Not hypothetical, but in real life - just you and the cat all alone out in the woods...
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Originally posted by Airhead
That's not a Cougar, it's an African lion. Sheeesh, look at the tail. It looks to me like one of those Texas "sport hunts" where they place tame circus animals in a garage and let the "hunters" blast away before the poor animals get a chance to wake up even.
Texans suck.
I know you ehhrm might be trolling but that is defintely a Mountain Lion and not an African Lion. The head shape and face markings are consistent with a Mountain Lion. :)
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Originally posted by davidpt40
No, they do not hunt humans. Every once in a while a cougar will kill a human. Very very rare.
Most likely this cougar was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
The U.S. does not have a huge bio-diversity of animals. Its important to hold onto the species we have. Cats in the USA are pretty rare. Other than the zoo, I've never seen a bobcat, or puma, or cougar.
Story sounds a bit fishy to me. Why would a cat stalk two animals of comparable size, that do not look like prey (bipedal rather than quadraped).
They are not rare and they do kill and attack people. In Arizona, about 250-350 are killed each year, both as big game and as predator control by ranchers. They are expert at stealth and they don't usually appear in the "wrong place at the wrong time"..... they know you are there long before you would ever know they arearound in most cases.
Interesting fact: the cougar is not the biggest cat in North America, the black jaguar is. The black Jaguar or leopard ranges into southern Arizona and is a very big cat.
The black jaguar used to range all the way up to the Grand Canyon. It's the 3rd largest cat in the world.
(http://208.56.219.94/jag.jpg)
(http://208.56.219.94/jag2.jpg)
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BTW, a jaguar was just spotted near the AZ/Mex border a month ago.
And david, where have you gone that you would see one? Now mind you, I've only seen one in the wild. However, a deputy I work with has a predation permit from the AZ Game & Fish. If livestock belonging to a local rancher is killed, he tracks the cat with his hounds and kills it. He says he can take me to see fresh tracks any day with a good chance of seeing a live one. He kills several every year.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So, none of the critics here would shoot the cat if it was threatening you?
Nope, never. Like I said, I would pet it and then strike up a conversation with it. No doubt it knows where all of the deer, like Bambi's mother, frequent, and I could get a kill that would feed both me and its family(if it had one). After that, I would challenge it to a game of beer pong and proceed to whoop its bellybutton because it doesn't have an opposable thumb. It shall make great mittens.
-SW
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LOL :)
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dune hit it pretty close i'd say.
for some of you this is the hypothetical "proud beast" from the zoo, who is off in these mystical places where all animals live together in harmony.
to me it's my back yard. I live in the biggest city in Oregon, not the suburbs but the city. they've been spotted close to schools within 5 miles of my house. this is real life not a dr suess book.
I spend an average of 20-30 days in the forest every year (actually thats nights, not counting day trips).
as some of you have pointed out it is their territory and when you are in someone else’s territory you play by their rules and speak their language. as someone who knows that cats territory pretty damn well, I know his rules. his rules say that the top predator takes what he wants. what he wants is to eat, and if the deer are a bit to fast for him, your kid runs pretty slow.
however when we are the top predator he stays away from us, he hides when we come around, he avoids are children because he knows we are near and a threat, he runs when the dog barks because we usually show up soon and dogs lead us to him, and he'd rather not be a rug.
maybe we should take a poll, it would be interesting.
how much time do you spend "in nature"?
real nature, no water spigot, no parking slot, no fire-pit, damn sure no electrical outlets, and no camp manager or other agency to run to when you hear a noise. not another person for a mile, maybe 3.
what do you bet if we took this poll, that the strength of the belief in the whole anti-hunting, "lay down and let nature take you out because your on his turf" thing, is inversely proportionate to the believers contact with nature?
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
maybe we should take a poll, it would be interesting.
how much time do you spend "in nature"?
real nature, no water spigot, no parking slot, no fire-pit, damn sure no electrical outlets, and no camp manager or other agency to run to when you hear a noise. not another person for a mile, maybe 3.
Well Lets See Having grown up on a Farm/cattle ranch In Colorado I would say I have spent my fair shair of time in the mountains.
And I know a thing or two about critters.
My point Is to respect wildlife and to give the wild things some room to LIVE.
We have taken some much of there home away from them already.
Ski resorts , moutain biking trails and the like.
If we the Smarter species go in the woods we should take to time to educate ourselves and maybe give the wildthings a little respect and ROOM.
AS far as this Idiot In the picture:rolleyes:
Aint he a stud:lol
As someone who has hunted evreything from rabbits to people
I can tell you It aint that hard to kill a animal with a rifle.
Now do It with A Bow and thats a different story.
Question Did the cat attack or attempt to attack the dude?
Was he killing livestock?
Was he a threat to the mans family?
Or was It just a case Of Look at me I'm a big Man I killed an animal:aok
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Oh and don't you agree they look much better alive than Dead?
Unless you just like looking at dead things:(
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Question Did the cat attack or attempt to attack the dude?
Was he killing livestock?
Was he a threat to the mans family?
Or was It just a case Of Look at me I'm a big Man I killed an animal
the cat allowed the hunter to see it, it had lost it's fear of humans and was a threat.
Oh and don't you agree they look much better alive than Dead?
Unless you just like looking at dead things
gotta agree there, watching them take down a deer is like art (only seen it once when I was a kid, through binocs at about 400 yds, very cool)
but when they lose their fear of people they also make a nice rug.
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And david, where have you gone that you would see one? Now mind you, I've only seen one in the wild. However, a deputy I work with has a predation permit from the AZ Game & Fish. If livestock belonging to a local rancher is killed, he tracks the cat with his hounds and kills it. He says he can take me to see fresh tracks any day with a good chance of seeing a live one. He kills several every year.
Daniel Boone National Forest, Red River Gorge State Park, and Smokey Mountains.
Their historic range included the eastern U.S., but they are considered endangered there now.
In spite of their large size and powerful build,
jaguars (el tigre of the Mexicans) are shy and retiring.
They seldom, if ever, attack man unless cornered or at bay.
Whew, thanks for the info guys. I'm going to go buy a gun so I can shoot any jaguars/mountain lions that attack me while in the forest. Its a miracle I've lived this long!
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for some of you this is the hypothetical "proud beast" from the zoo, who is off in these mystical places where all animals live together in harmony.
Capt Apathy read my post .... I am not saying "ahhhh aren't dey cute lil *****cats" . I am saying they are to me[/i] a beautiful animal - powerful, fantastical designed for their job, masters of their environment.
To my questions well seems there are some conflicting answers ........
to 1) Would they actively hunt you?"
Some say no and some say yes. To me logic says that if its in its own territory and hungry and see's an animal (read human)in a vunerable postion then we are we say "fair game". As Capt.A said his rules say that the top predator takes what he wants. what he wants is to eat, and if the deer are a bit to fast for him, your kid runs pretty slow.
However most of the attacks reported seem to come from behind - read Rips and Rippr29's posts - the people attacked didn't see it coming and surely thats how a big cat hunts?.
So how did this guy find this one - stumbled across it?? Most of you guys who say you do a lot of time in the wild admit you have never seen one. :confused:
To 2) Them vermin to us or us to them ? Again the jury seems split but on balance it looks like more of us living in the hills and woods than them walking down mainstreet.
To 3) Not many people answered that one - Kappa and Vorticon . Me I think I'd feel happy I survived but sad I had to kill it.
I think I have to disagree with this thoughIf that cougar happened upon me and I had a gun... I wouldn't sit around waiting for him to "come right at me". I would shoot it.
if it allows me see it I figure it's no longer afraid of me and doesn't see 'man' as a threat it's now a danger if not me then to the next family who put up a tent. my conclusion is- valid target.
Surely from the way they appear to attack then if you actually see one first then you have probably taken it by surprise and a shot in the air would make it run?? I suppose that is really the bit about is it necessary - basically if you are in the woods and see a Cougar at say 200yds and he sees you at the same time is he definitely going to attack you, might attack you, or run??
Humans have lived along side predators for ever but now we are more advanced we have a greater ability to go out and actively remove them - does this make it right to do so - I don't think so. Is it right to protect ourselves and our family to the best of our ability - absolutely. Sooooo................. where do you draw the line ???? Difficult for someone living in urban UK to say. Is shooting on sight protection or killing fo killings sake? I don't often wake up in the morning to find a Cougar has crapped in the Geranium pot on the patio so who knows??
I hope I would give it chance to leave me alone first but then if I saw one and then had to walk down a dark lane the next day knowing it was there ???? I dunno ............
Sparks
PS LOL - you cant say radish as in puddytat - PC or what
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I would shoot it in a heartbeat. It will eat your kids and ravage your farm. Even close to the city now, there was a mountain lion spotted not too far north of Boston. I'm sorry, I just do not see a beautiful animal, I see a trained killer.
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I'm sorry, I just do not see a beautiful animal, I see a trained killer.
Not that I wouldn't shoot a cougar near me or mine, but there are a lot more stuffed cougars in the world than people ever killed by cougars....
I think that it is interesting that people will be worried about cougars, bears and sharks, and talk it over at the local bar where somebody was killed a month ago in a fight over who's car was better.
We are the most dangerous animal.
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Rest easy sixpence...right now it's hunting season in Maine and thousands of your Massachusetts brethren are up here riding back and forth in their pickups in an attempt to rid the world of all the nasty beasties.
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So Sixpence - when you look at a Spitfire or Mustang do you see an elegant airplane and engineering great of it's time or do you just see a gun platform for killing people as effieciently as possible - which is what they were by the way.
Yes the Big Cats are all killers - that is part of the wonder about them - they are so well designed for it. I'm sure that if one jumped on my back and sank it's teeth into the back of my neck I might not be thinking "awwwwww ain't he shweeeeet".
But because a wild animal - any wild animal is dangerous to us ,because thats how it lives, does that give us the right to kill it on every contact???
"..It will eat your kids and ravage your farm....." ehhhh ?? Even me city dweller seriously doubts a big cat will 'ravage your farm' , what, so it will cruise the buildings tearing things down ? Think thats a bit of popular hysteria creeping in there.
One other point I forgot - from Dune If livestock belonging to a local rancher is killed, he tracks the cat with his hounds and kills it. He says he can take me to see fresh tracks any day with a good chance of seeing a live one. He kills several every year.
. So its also alright to actively hunt and kill a natural species predator because of its economic impact ??? Killing livestock is not a direct threat to personal safety. It does however hurt the farmers pocket........ All of the previous discussion was killing for protection and safety - now its ok for economic reasons - how far does this line go???
Sparks
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With the livestock killing its all about the money. Plus to get the Unwashed to go along with it they use scare tactics. Oh that mean ol kitty gonna gobble up the little ones,burn your house, and kiss your wife. Trained Killing machine, lol. That drunken redneck and his pic is funny. Though of course if I saw one near me in the woods looking at me with that funky smile, Id cap him as well. I wouldnt go out of my way to shoot him or nothing. I also certainly wouldnt feel like a bad arse if I had a pack of dogs and tree'd him then took drunken redneck potshots at him from 10ft away til I killed him like some hunters boast of.
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Mountain lion(Cougar).....Black panther....Jaguar.....all same species.....almost all the same height and weight....and basically show all the same characteristics....they have a HARD life
that 1 in the picture sure looks BIG....and I mean really BIG.....someone musta been feeding this Cat to get so big.
but it still looks PUNY compared to a Siberian Tiger.....
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According to Feild and Stream, only 20 human deaths have been linked to mountain lions. Only 20 since the 1920s.... Wonder what the numbers are on the other side of that argument..??
I've been in all types of forest.. I've seen black panthers in north florida.. I've seen bobcats.. black bear..... grizzlys.... elk..... bison.... large deer.... coyotes... fox.... never seen a wolf.... saw a bald eagle catch a fish one day... redtail hawk catch a rabbit (coulda been a mouse).... wild boar... wild turkey...... i've dove with sharks..... stingrays..... and even had a remora follow me to the surface once.... out of these sightings, I cant say i've never felt threatened... when the remora followed me up I gave him a poke w/ my knife and he went away. I only felt threatened by the remora because I had seen a small shark not long before that. I dunno how many divers are here, but the accent up is the longest time for me after seeing something that throws you off balance...
Point is, when seeing some wild creature, 95% of the time whats in your heart is what you will feel.... The panther saw me.. looked right at me.. well, maybe he was looking at the lite I was shinning on him. Thing is I looked at him as a exotic animal... Not as a target...
Humans always before animals...
Animals feel pain, pleasure, fear, trust, love and everthing inbetween. Empathy people... empathy....
k
AoM
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That cat was killed in Aledo Texas last year, about 6 miles from where my brother-in-law lives. The cat's presence was well known prior to its death. It appeared that it had lost its fear of humans. As to whether it had been attacking and feeding on livestock, it is my understanding that yes, it had.
What a beautiful animal. Its a shame that it had to die. With our species moving further and further into these animals habitat, this kind of thing will only continue to happen.
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Originally posted by SLO
Mountain lion(Cougar).....Black panther....Jaguar.....all same species.....almost all the same height and weight....and basically show all the same characteristics....they have a HARD life
Not true. The Jaguar native to Arizona, New Mexico, and Mexico (maybe ranged to California and Texas) are a different cat and the 3rd largest cat in the world. They are Jaguars and are about 8 feet in length, 250 pounds compaired to the male Cougar at about 150 pounds.
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Originally posted by kappa
According to Feild and Stream, only 20 human deaths have been linked to mountain lions. Only 20 since the 1920s.... Wonder what the numbers are on the other side of that argument..??
I've been in all types of forest.. I've seen black panthers in north florida.. I've seen bobcats.. black bear..... grizzlys.... elk..... bison.... large deer.... coyotes... fox.... never seen a wolf.... saw a bald eagle catch a fish one day... redtail hawk catch a rabbit (coulda been a mouse).... wild boar... wild turkey...... i've dove with sharks..... stingrays..... and even had a remora follow me to the surface once.... out of these sightings, I cant say i've never felt threatened... when the remora followed me up I gave him a poke w/ my knife and he went away. I only felt threatened by the remora because I had seen a small shark not long before that. I dunno how many divers are here, but the accent up is the longest time for me after seeing something that throws you off balance...
Point is, when seeing some wild creature, 95% of the time whats in your heart is what you will feel.... The panther saw me.. looked right at me.. well, maybe he was looking at the lite I was shinning on him. Thing is I looked at him as a exotic animal... Not as a target...
Humans always before animals...
Animals feel pain, pleasure, fear, trust, love and everthing inbetween. Empathy people... empathy....
k
AoM
1. do those numbers include the us and canada???
2. ive seen at least as many different animals as you...and your right they do throw you off balance (if they didnt those tourist traps would die) and the only thing i felt threatened by was a black bear...it had been eating garbage in town and had completly lost its fear of humans...it had been relocated at least twice so when it was shot i felt no remorse...
3. hmm...even if they do feel that we are carnivores first...and if another carnivore threatens us we will dispose of it...its in our nature and to deny it is to deny being human...
yes the cat would have activly hunted him but since the cat let the hunter see it, it wasnt hunting him...cougars dont let you see them if there hunting you...
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Couple of points:
1. I haven't seen anyone post the full story about how that cat was shot. Did that hunter just see it and blast it as it was running away? Did he try a warning shot and it approached him? Did he happen to shoot it in mid-air as it was leaping at his throat? Dunno.
2. Cats normally don't mess with people. However they will kill people. And the number of attacks has risen in the last few years. And, as conservation efforts improve and the number of people and cats increase, the number of attacks will continue to increase.
3. Cats (especially in Africa) usually will not become man-eaters unless they have been injured in some way. Note I said usually. There are ones that are in perfect health and just realize that the hairless monkeys are far easier to catch than a gazelle.
4. Cats are hunted in the US. They are not an endangered species. However, like every other big game animal, the numbers are regulated.
It's not secret that I hunt and I enjoy it. And if I felt that my life was threatened by a cat of that size, I would kill and sleep very well at night.
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Originally posted by Dune
Cats are hunted in the US. They are not an endangered species.
Although one sub-species, the Florida panther (Puma concolor coryi), is endangered, with only about 30- 50 left in the wild. They will probaly not survive another 30 years without an extensive management program.
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Surely from the way they appear to attack then if you actually see one first then you have probably taken it by surprise and a shot in the air would make it run?? I suppose that is really the bit about is it necessary - basically if you are in the woods and see a Cougar at say 200yds and he sees you at the same time is he definitely going to attack you, might attack you, or run??
the danger isn't to the man who is there at the time. I've come into contact with them when I didn't have a gun on me. you just open your coat so you look wider, put your arms up and out, and basicly make yourself look as big as possable and run directly tward it raoring as loud as you can manage.
picturing it now I must've looked funny as hell but I didn't look like prey, the cat ran. I have no fear of most of the animals in the forest near me, bear and cat will run (unless sick or protecting young).
the point is that a cat isn't just stumbling through the forest, he's aware. if he's afraid of you you aren't going to see him up close. when you can just happen upon him then he isn't afraid of you, he knows you are there and doesn't care. and thats well on the way to taking what he needs from you.
the thing is are you going to be there when he elevates his contact or is it going to be your wife on her morning run, or your kid filling a water bucket in the creek.
I see sign of cat almost every time I'me in the woods, as long as they aren't showing it stalking my kids then I don't conscern myself with it. I've seen tracks within 30-40 yds of our camp and wasn't conscerned, he was just passing through.
a cat letting you 'happen upon him', is a sign, it's telling you he isn't afraid of you and your pressence doesn't trouble him. that isn't a good thing.
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Originally posted by aztec
Rest easy sixpence...right now it's hunting season in Maine and thousands of your Massachusetts brethren are up here riding back and forth in their pickups in an attempt to rid the world of all the nasty beasties.
They will end up shooting each other
So Sixpence - when you look at a Spitfire or Mustang do you see an elegant airplane and engineering great of it's time or do you just see a gun platform for killing people as effieciently as possible - which is what they were by the way.
Yeah right, there is a good analogy. But i'll play it your way. If there is a cougar or mountain lion flying it, then yes, I would look at it the same.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
the cat allowed the hunter to see it, it had lost it's fear of humans and was a threat.
Oh I see now he was guilty of being seen and therefore should be killed.
thanks for making that clear for me now:rolleyes:
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The big cats are, first and foremost, predators. They do not have an "instinctive" fear of man. Before we moved to the top of the food chain the largest cats of Africa, especially the leopard, were the deadliest killers of our ancient ancestors. Fossil records indicate that the leopard killed ancient humans by seizing them from behind, pinning them to the ground, and then inserting their two upper fangs through the eye sockets and into the brain.
After our ancestors grew intelligent enough to develop weapons, the tables were turned. Our politically incorrect but immensely practical grandsires began to systematically eliminate every dangerous predator they possibly could. These same predators "learned" to fear man. This fear persisted until the latter part of the 20th century, when modern man developed conservational ethics, and began to rationalize away the latent threat that these ancient predators pose. Justification for this reasoning is usually based on statistics which purport to show that, because there have been very few attacks on humans by these animals in the 20th century, they have no natural inclination to attack us.
That is erroneous. There are two reasons these cats have seldom attacked humans in modern times. One, efforts to reduce the numbers of these predators during the 19th century were extremely effective. Two, the hunting of these animals, especially with dogs, has reinforced their "learned" fear of man. As a result, even when cougars have met people in the wild, they have avoided them.
Modern conservational ethics, grounded largely in faulty science, has drawn all the wrong conclusions from this. When California halted the hunting of cougars in the late 1980's I believe, the population of these cats began to rebound dramatically. As a result, a new generation of cats has been produced which, because of reduced danger and increased contact with humans, lost most of its fear of us. Naturally, attacks on humans, and killings, have become more common.
I do not like to see animals killed needlessly, but more and more of this type of thing is likely to occur. Urban Americans are going to have to come to grips with the fact that these cats are dangerous, and are likely to become more so if current attitudes do not change.
Regards, Shuckins
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(http://www.bchunter.com/photos/cougar/cougar006.jpg)
Cougars are bigger than I thought.
(http://www.bchunter.com/photos/cougar/cougar-rod.jpg)
(http://www.bchunter.com/photos/cougar/cougar007.jpg)
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Your post is full of holes Shuckins.
Humans are not quadrapeds therefore we do not represent the normal prey to cougars. On the very rare occassion a human may be looked at as food. Most attacks probably occur when the cougar sees humans as rivals in its territory.
How would a cougar learn to fear humans? If it were shot, it wouldn't matter.
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Originally posted by Jack55
(http://www.bchunter.com/photos/cougar/cougar006.jpg)
Cougars are bigger than I thought.
(http://www.bchunter.com/photos/cougar/cougar-rod.jpg)
(http://www.bchunter.com/photos/cougar/cougar007.jpg)
Now Look at these Dudes LOL
Talk about some Hillbilly looking fools LOL.
Maybe a 5th grade education between them.
I bet If they could get away with It they would be out there stringin up some darkies.
Gawd I hate Rednecks:rolleyes:
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Humans are not quadrapeds therefore we do not represent the normal prey to cougars. On the very rare occassion a human may be looked at as food. Most attacks probably occur when the cougar sees humans as rivals in its territory.
take a trip to the zoo, stand in front of the cougars, watch the cat when someone comes by with a small child (they really go nuts for the toddlers).
2 legs 4 legs the cougar doesn't care, it'll eat a bird or a fish if that's whats handy. it's looking for a warm bag of meat, and doesn't care how many legs it walks on.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
take a trip to the zoo, stand in front of the cougars, watch the cat when someone comes by with a small child (they really go nuts for the toddlers).
2 legs 4 legs the cougar doesn't care, it'll eat a bird or a fish if that's whats handy. it's looking for a warm bag of meat, and doesn't care how many legs it walks on.
So the smart thing to do is keep you'r warm bad of meat away from them:aok
It's like when I'm scuba diving If I see a shark OR an over aggressive barracuda I get my happy arse out of the water.
Just seems like using you'r noodle to me.
The smartest and best weapon we have that they don't Is our superior Brain USE IT:aok
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Originally posted by Dune
... I would kill and sleep very well at night.
Be careful Dune. Being an attorney is already two strikes against you on the ol' conscience meter. :)
There's a mountain lion that visits my parents' place every few months and thins out the local population of dogs and cats. Occasionally someone's sheep or calf gets eaten and they hunt the offending cat down and kill it, but it's OK to eat peoples' pets I guess.
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Humans are not quadrapeds therefore we do not represent the normal prey to cougars. On the very rare occassion a human may be looked at as food. Most attacks probably occur when the cougar sees humans as rivals in its territory.
Not true.
Killer Cougars
by Don Zaidle
On August 19, 1996, 36-year-old Cindy Parolin and three of her children were riding horses in the Similkameen backcountry, 30 miles northwest of Princeton, British Columbia. Like their mother, 6-year-old Steven, 11-year-old Melissa and 13-year-old David felt a mixture of wonder and excitement as they traveled through the vast wilderness. The four were headed to a cabin to join Parolin's husband and other son for a camping vacation....Manion rushed to Parolin's aid, but she was beyond help, having traded her life for that of her son. Steven survived the near scalping inflicted by the cougar and made a full recovery after receiving 70 stitches in his head. Cindy Parolin was awarded the Star of Courage medal posthumously by the Governor General of Canada.
Other Attacks...
July 1996: On the same day, but in different places and at different times, eight-year-old Lance Beingessner and five-year-old Christine Frank were hospitalized in the wake of separate cougar attacks in British Columbia. Beingessner was dragged off a trail near Upper Arrow Lake, Frank from a front-yard swing.
July 1997: Four-year-old Rafael DeGrave suffered head injuries when a cougar ambushed him and dragged him into brush alongside a hiking trail in Mesa Verde National Park, Colo. Within a week, a cougar killed 10-year-old Mark Miedema in Colorado's Rocky Mountain National Park.
August 1998: Five-year-old Carmen Schrock received extensive head injuries when attacked by a mountain lion at a campground near Metaline Falls, Wash.
August 1998: Six-year-old Joey Wing needed 200 stitches to close wounds sustained in an attack near Swift Dam Campground west of Depuyer, Mont. That same week, six-year-old Dante Swallow was mauled at a day camp outside Missoula. Within two weeks, two other encounters with cats occurred in the same area.
August 1999: Four-year-old Jacob Walsh was hospitalized with injuries requiring over 200 stitches after a cougar grabbed him by the head as he played in his grandparent's backyard in Barstow, Wash.
January 2000: Clarence Hall, an animal-control hunter for the Canadian government, was mauled severely by a cougar he'd been ordered to dispatch in the backyard of a home on the Nuxalk Indian Reserve in British Columbia.
April 2000: Four-year-old Victoria Martinez was injured seriously in a nighttime attack during a family campout at Bartlett Lake, Ariz. She survived a partially crushed skull and nicked artery in her neck.
These are just a few of the more spectacular cases of recent vintage. I have researched dozens of similar occurrences and hundreds of "threatening" but noncontact encounters.
Breaking Lion Myths
Lay (Dan Lay, a retired wildlife control officer for the British Columbia Ministry of Environment who has developed cougar-management programs across North America) abhors the mass media's propensity to blame lion attacks on "human encroachment." Habitat loss is a deplorable problem that needs addressing, but it is not the cause of attacks, says Lay. Rather, he believes such encounters are evidence of a growing lion population that is taking up residence in suburban and even urban areas.
A mountain lion prowling a shopping mall parking lot is almost cliché these days. In Placerville, Calif., a cougar activated the automatic doors at the emergency entrance of a downtown hospital. Pets disappearing from suburban yards are commonplace, and there are cases of cougars literally taking dogs off their leashes.
Contrary to frequent reports, animals have no "instinctive" or "natural" fear of humans just because they are human. Among predators, hazard avoidance and prey recognition are learned behaviors. Through repeated nonthreatening exposure to humans, a lion learns that some of the prey in its new territory is bipedal.
Because children and adults of small stature more closely approximate the size of other prey species, they are by far the most common targets for lions. Hairy-chested types enjoy marginal immunity due to the intimidation factor their sheer size presents; for instance, a cougar may pass over a bull elk in favor of a whitetail deer fawn. However, if deer are in short supply and an elk presents itselfä.
The belief that animals prey on humans only in desperation due to age, starvation or other incapacitation is a myth. Young, healthy animals account for the vast majority of lions involved in human attacks.
"I investigated the death of an eight-year-old girl back in 1979," Dan Lay told me. "The cougar still had fresh remains from a deer kill in its stomach. It just licked up the girl's blood, left her lying in the ditch where it had dragged her and then moved on."
A common preservationist argument is that you are 43 times more likely to be struck by lightning than attacked by a cougar. An observation by one expert paints the picture a bit differently.
Dave Fjelline is a professional lion hunter for the State of California, the same man who tracked down and killed the cougar that killed and partially ate Barbara Schoener on April 24, 1994, about 45 miles northeast of Sacramento. His take on the lightning-versus-lion equation: "It is an absurd comparison. People do not go out and stand under tall trees during a thunderstorm, but they do go out into cougar country without a second thought. In addition, the at-risk group is much smaller, and the risk more concentrated. It is sort of like comparing the chances of a CPA and an NFL quarterback getting their necks broken on Super Bowl Sunday.
"When you add in the fact that the lions are always there, and lightning comes and goes with the caprice of the weather, and that lightning does not come looking for you but cougars do, the odds tip most uncomfortably," concludes Fjelline.
The State of California considers the risk very real, especially where children are involved. Some state parks are marked with red-lettered signs warning, "Mountain Lion Country...No Minors Allowed."
Avoiding a Cougar Encounter...or Surviving One
Millions of people live and recreate in cougar country each year, and many of them do so within eyesight of cougars. Hunters are in a special group: Their choice of recreation places them in the same habitat, pursuing the same species, as cougars.
What can you do to minimize the chances of an unpleasant or dangerous encounter? Like any predator, cougars target the seemingly easy mark, the unwary and the defenseless. The most important thing you can do is to stay alert and be aware of what is going on around you.
Here are other ways to decrease the possibilities of a cougar attack.
Keep a clean camp, much like you already do to avoid conflicts with bears. Cougars are extremely curious and quickly can become acclimatized to humans. Cougars routinely prowl camps in many areas and they may be more attracted to camps with a lot of food and cooking odors present.
Leave your pet at home or keep it under close control. A dog fleeing from a cougar can lead the mountain lion straight back to you.
Be especially alert when you are cleaning downed game animals and keep your firearm close at hand.
If the worst happens and you find yourself in a confrontation with a mountain lion, what you do next can make the difference between a story you tell your friends and one they tell about you. Convincing a cougar that you are more than it wants to tangle with takes some courage on your part.
Make yourself look as big as possible; stand tall, spread your arms and open your coat.
Maintain eye contact, speak loudly and firmly and bare your teeth
Do not turn your back on the cat, even to get uphill. If you decide to back up, be sure of your footing. Slipping while climbing could trigger an attack, and poor footing leaves you less able to fight if an attack occurs.
Do not stoop, squat or bend.
Do not make quick movements or sudden noises that may trigger an attack.
Do not run. Cougars chase down deer for a living!
If attacked, your option is simple: fight back with everything you have. Although cougars will defend a kill, their young or possibly even a den site, their most likely motivation for an attack is predation -- they intend to eat you! Playing dead is not going to work. Plenty of people, even children, have fought off cougar attacks successfully, but I know of no one who has survived an attack by feigning death.
Use a stick, a club, your hands, a fishing pole, a camera -- whatever. If you have to, shoot the animal. Remember that wildlife agents are going to have to be convinced that your life was in danger if you are going to avoid a citation. At close range, your rifle may be more useful as a club.
If you kill the cougar, leave the scene intact and contact wildlife authorities immediately. Better yet, stay put and have a friend contact the fish and game department. Get the names and telephone numbers of any witnesses. If you see other hunters, ask them if they have had any cougar contact in the area that might corroborate your experience. Carefully note where you were standing when the attack occurred, where the cat was and other relevant locations. Mark these spots in some way that will not be erased by bad weather -- hunting season is a busy time for wildlife agents and it might take a while for one to reach you...
From Outdoor Life (http://www.outdoorlife.com/outdoor/hunting/predators/article/0,13285,195144,00.html)
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The U.S. does not have a huge bio-diversity of animals. Its important to hold onto the species we have. Cats in the USA are pretty rare. Other than the zoo, I've never seen a bobcat, or puma, or cougar.
I've never seen a Cougar in the wild either. Yet they are rather abundant here in Colorado. Some places, like Boulder have serious problems with Cougars attacking dogs right in peoples yards. We have a hunting season on them here to control their numbers.
As several others have stated, you will NOT see a Cougar under normal circumstances unless it wants to be seen or has no fear of humans. These animals are normally very secretive and are quite capable of evading humans long before you have a chance to see them. Thats why Cougars are normally hunted with dogs.
Predators will normally kill whatever is easiest for them to catch. The less energy they expend making a kill the better it is for the animal, especially during winter months.
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Originally posted by mrblack
Now Look at these Dudes LOL
Talk about some Hillbilly looking fools LOL.
Maybe a 5th grade education between them.
I bet If they could get away with It they would be out there stringin up some darkies.
Gawd I hate Rednecks:rolleyes:
Just curious.... what exactly about the pictures of these guys makes you think they are "hillbilly fools" ?
They seem like normal looking humans to me. How do you ID a fool from a picture?
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He's just jealous because he only reached 4th.
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Originally posted by Dune
He's just jealous because he only reached 4th.
Yep 4th grade got me all the way to paramedic and my own buisness that nets me $110.000k a year LOL.
If you Kill animals for "sport" you might just be a redneck:aok
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So is that the universal "I killed a courgar" pose? Standing position, arms in a loving embrace... very um, suggestive :D
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Ever see a fisherman pose with a fish ? Ever see an Elk/ hunter photo? How about a deer/hunter photo? Have you ever seen a hunter pose with a bear kill?
What's wrong with posing with a cougar kill while holding it ? How else could one hold up a dead cougar?
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I swatted a fly waite let me get my camera:D
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(http://www.bchunter.com/photos/cougar/cougar-rod.jpg)
Well it sure is a small world, the guy on the right, Calvin Fredenhagen, was my supervisor for my thesis "The stress energy tensor of a locally supersymmetric quatum field on a curved spacetime."
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LOL ok what ever you say:aok
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Interesting passage Dune .......
One bit confuses me when put against the photos posted.
If you kill the cougar, leave the scene intact and contact wildlife authorities immediately. Better yet, stay put and have a friend contact the fish and game department. Get the names and telephone numbers of any witnesses. If you see other hunters, ask them if they have had any cougar contact in the area that might corroborate your experience. Carefully note where you were standing when the attack occurred, where the cat was and other relevant locations. Mark these spots in some way that will not be erased by bad weather -- hunting season is a busy time for wildlife agents and it might take a while for one to reach you...
Seems these guys seem a little too proud of themselves to have been attack victims. So are the rules ignored ??
I look at those pictures and I still rather have the cats alive than the "Big Strong Manly Hunters". Now if they were holding similar sized deer that was about to be put into a nice stew and I was invited - now thats different :D
Sparks
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But see youse a big stud when you blow away some cougar. Wouldnt you want to be a big stud? Those things are tricky dangerous killing machines. So you need a big ol semi-auto rifle to spray away like a niki dweeb. Or a decent scoped rifle so you can snipe the dumb bastage from 500 yards. Of course cats are dangerous you should tree em first with your pack o dogs. Then walk up and shoot til ya hit. But of course even sniping you have to be quiet, so why not pay some guy who owns hunting place where you can blast away at a confused frightened cat from a safe place. Heard tell of one where the cat hid under a pick up and the intrepid hunters stuck their guns under it and blasted away like real men til that dangerous ol predator was kilt.
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You may have a different viewpoint if you knew what you were talking about, Pooh.
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LOL what do you mean I dont know what Im talking about? I like hunting as much as the next guy. But I dont think someones a bad arse just cause they kill a predator.
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Perhaps the pictures were taken in celebration of killing the cougar that had been killing their livestock. It is a possibility...
Or maybe I am getting the wrong impression... you think you are a bad bellybutton when you kill a cute little bunny?
I personally do not partake in trophy hunting, although I did mount a head of the last elk I killed. Figured it was going to be wasted otherwise.
I enjoy hunting elk and deer, mostly (but not exclusively) with a bow. I can enjoy hunting with a camera out of season. 99% of the enjoyment comes from getting into a position to shoot.
After the kill, the fun is usually gone, and the work begins.
In the USA, 90% of the money that goes to animal conservation comes from hunters. The tag system keeps the number of kills controlled to what state biologists deem necessary to control animal population.
Oh, and the use of dogs for bear and cougar is outlawed in my state.
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lol I have never killed a little bunny.
Same here I enjoy the stalk more then the kill. Nothing like getting in close as hell.
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MrBlack if everyone was just like you on what would you base your superiority?
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Originally posted by Sparks
Interesting passage Dune .......
One bit confuses me when put against the photos posted.
Seems these guys seem a little too proud of themselves to have been attack victims. So are the rules ignored ??
Sparks
Sparks, I would imagine that these photos are not those of hunters who have killed cougars to defend themselves. These are hunters who bought tags to legally take the cougars.
MrBlack, neither your opinion nor your paycheck make you a superior being. Your attitude, however, marks you as an ass.
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Originally posted by Dune
MrBlack, neither your opinion nor your paycheck make you a superior being. Your attitude, however, marks you as an ass.
You're just now noticing that? (BTW Mr.Black, I make more money than you do, and I'm STILL an idiot.)
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Ha! I make way less money than all of you fools, in fact if you figure in my tution I'm actually loosing money at the moment. :(
Now what on earth does income have to do with a mountain lion thread, anybody? :)
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lol I have never killed a little bunny.
Same here I enjoy the stalk more then the kill. Nothing like getting in close as hell.
:rofl :rofl
sorry I just got a little snap-shot in my head.
I'm invisionning, something like a new monty python bit.
Through the “hundred acre wood” comes Pooh, face camo'd out, lying on his belly crawling through the brush. slowly, carefully, quietly he sneaks up on the elusive bunny. Finally after stalking it all day, hot on it's trail for long hours, he slowly reaches out, with one final lunge, he touches it's tail and says "tag, you're it", then packs up his gear and skips home.
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Originally posted by aztec
MrBlack if everyone was just like you on what would you base your superiority?
I just think that All Gods creatures have a RIGHT to live thats all.
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Originally posted by Dune
MrBlack, neither your opinion nor your paycheck make you a superior being. Your attitude, however, marks you as an ass.
Welcome to the Idiots club:aok
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Originally posted by mrblack
I just think that All Gods creatures have a RIGHT to live thats all.
Do you eat hamburgers? Fish? Porkchops? Steaks? Sausage? Bacon? I'll let you guess where they came from ;)
Since time began Man has killed for food, clothing, shelter etc.. We are this planet's most dangerous predator. With conservation programs today, hunters are the primary means of controlling animal populations. It's my guess that the men pictured with the dead Cougars are most likely hunters who have legally taken those cats.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Do you eat hamburgers? Fish? Porkchops? Steaks? I'll let you guess where they came from ;)
those things come from the store, right? :)
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Originally posted by Elfie
Do you eat hamburgers? Fish? Porkchops? Steaks? Sausage? Bacon? I'll let you guess where they came from ;)
Do you eat cougar?
I do not eat fish.
The other animals you list are domesticated and raised for the soul pupose of FOOD.
So don't try to be smart It does not suite you:aok
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Originally posted by kappa
According to Feild and Stream, only 20 human deaths have been linked to mountain lions. Only 20 since the 1920s.... Wonder what the numbers are on the other side of that argument..??
I've been in all types of forest.. I've seen black panthers in north florida.. I've seen bobcats.. black bear..... grizzlys.... elk..... bison.... large deer.... coyotes... fox.... never seen a wolf....
k
AoM
You wanna see wolves come to Northern Minn. I see wolves all the time ...saw a wolf take down a deer..yes 1 wolf took down a BIG doe by its self have also saw where a pack worked as a team ....have had them trail me...IE follow my tracks to where I was standing (deer hunting) wanna feel insignificant??? just hear a pack howl less than 300yards from ya at dusk and you got a mile to go to the truck!!!
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Do you eat cougar?
I do not eat fish.
The other animals you list are domesticated and raised for the soul pupose of FOOD.
So don't try to be smart It does not suite you
but didn't you also post-I just think that All Gods creatures have a RIGHT to live thats all
whats the difference? aren't cows "gods creatures"? last time I read the Bible it said he made them all. and he also gave them to us to use.
your logic (or lack of it) is very inconsistent for a guy who uses half of his posts to call others stupid.
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Do you eat cougar?
I do not eat fish.
The other animals you list are domesticated and raised for the soul pupose of FOOD.
So don't try to be smart It does not suite you
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but didn't you also post-
quote:
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I just think that All Gods creatures have a RIGHT to live thats all
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whats the difference? aren't cows "gods creatures"? last time I read the Bible it said he made them all. and he also gave them to us to use.
That was my point :)
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Originally posted by mrblack
I just think that All Gods creatures have a RIGHT to live thats all.
LMAO!!!
OK-what's your position on fire ants? Or termites?
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Originally posted by Sox62
LMAO!!!
OK-what's your position on fire ants? Or termites?
Do you eat ants or termites?
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Originally posted by mrblack
Do you eat cougar?
I do not eat fish.
The other animals you list are domesticated and raised for the soul pupose of FOOD.
So don't try to be smart It does not suite you:aok
Here is a little passage in the Bible that expresses God's wish'es on the subject of the man/animal relationship. Also note the verse 6 adds substance to God's stance on capitol punishment.
Genesis 9
God's Covenant With Noah
1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.
6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.
7 As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it."
8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: 9 "I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you 10 and with every living creature that was with you-the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you-every living creature on earth. 11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth."
12 And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: 13 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, 15 I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. 16 Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth."
17 So God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all life on the earth."
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Originally posted by storch
... Florida .... we have the smallest member ...
Did everyone missed this one?
;) :D
:p
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Originally posted by mrblack
Do you eat ants or termites?
I asked you YOUR position.You stated that you believe all of God's creatures have a right to live.
You find a nest of fire ants in your yard,do you leave them be,and hope they don't sting your kid?After all,until they do so,they haven't attacked or done anything aggressive,right?
If you find Termites in your house,do you exterminate them?If so,aren't they God's creatures and have a right to live also?There are only a few people in a house,but you'd be killing thousands of termites.
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Originally posted by Sox62
I asked you YOUR position.You stated that you believe all of God's creatures have a right to live.
You find a nest of fire ants in your yard,do you leave them be,and hope they don't sting your kid?After all,until they do so,they haven't attacked or done anything aggressive,right?
If you find Termites in your house,do you exterminate them?If so,aren't they God's creatures and have a right to live also?There are only a few people in a house,but you'd be killing thousands of termites.
I just found that you brought it to the level of being silly thats all.
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can you say sidestep???:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by tzr
can you say sidestep???:rolleyes:
LOL can you say has no merit:rolleyes:
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careful you don't trip:D
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Originally posted by tzr
careful you don't trip:D
I won't If you move you'r EGO:aok
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I just found that you brought it to the level of being silly thats all.
actually you'd already brought it to that level, he just posted an equally silly coment in the hope that maybe you'd see the parallel.
btw- did you ever do any of those logic questions, like on the SAT's?
you know the ones "fireman is to firetruck as policeman is to....?" from the ability you've shown at missing even the most obvious point, I'd guess not.
the point is-
what exactly is your criteria for a animal to be "one of gods creatures" and deserving of your respect and protection?
is it by size? bigger animals are more important? but a cow is bigger than cougar so I guess that wouldn't work.
is it by where they are on the food chain? so ticks feed off of us do you protect them? should you just leave it be, you went out into his territory, let him finish his meal?
is it the preditor/prey clasification. misquitos are preditors, should they be protected?
you make continued posts about the intelegence of others, yet their seems to be no reasoning or logic at all in your thought patters, there isn't even really a pattern.
if you can't provide any sort of reasoning for your opinion it's usually a fairly good clue that it's wrong.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
actually you'd already brought it to that level, he just posted an equally silly coment in the hope that maybe you'd see the parallel.
btw- did you ever do any of those logic questions, like on the SAT's?
you know the ones "fireman is to firetruck as policeman is to....?" from the ability you've shown at missing even the most obvious point, I'd guess not.
I'm sorry did I ask you'r opinion?
And If I did I don't really care :aok
You might ask you'r self at what level do you concider you'r
place in the world?
appearently you see It higher than those around you.
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I simply see no honor In killing animals for sport!
It makes no sense to do so.
After all what does It really prove?
That we are smarter?
Maybe If you have seen as much death as I have(I am also a paramedic) you will respect ALL life animal and human.
I even feel remorse for the ragheads In Iraq we are killing.
But I would rather them die then our soldiers.
Think about It people a life Is hard to build but easy to destroy.
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Originally posted by mrblack
I just found that you brought it to the level of being silly thats all.
Rhetorical questions:
At what point on the spectrum of animal life does a species become silly?
Is it more humane to enslave a domestic animal for the soul purpose of murdering that animal for food, or to hunt an animal who has lived as nature and nature's God intended?
(the last question comes from my intimate knowledge of what a PETA person may say before they burn down my house because I enslave animal species myself.)
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The more developed an animals nervous system, the more valuable it is (alive).
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According to noted Ecologist Edwin O. Wilson, ants may be more important in the grand scheme than people.
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What's the grand scheme?
I feel lost ...
I'll bow to the ant gods if that's what is required of a good human though :)
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Mountain Lion On Loose After Fatal Attack
Woman Is Also Attacked
POSTED: 6:05 PM PST January 8, 2004
UPDATED: 6:40 PM PST January 8, 2004
ORANGE COUNTY, Calif. -- One mountain biker is dead and another critically injured after two attacks by the same mountain lion.
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VOTE: Do You Fear Animal Attacks?
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On Thursday, four mountain bikers on a trail near Lake Forest in southern Orange County came across an abandoned mountain bike.
The group became alarmed and began to search for the missing person. While they were walking down a hill, a female biker was attacked by a mountain lion on her face and neck.
Shortly afterward, some of the searchers were able to locate the missing bicyclist, who had been mauled to death.
The woman who was attacked is in critical condition at a local hospital.
As night fell, park rangers were trying to flush out the mountain lion.
Officials said that they initially were trying to capture the animal, but because it keeps it is "very, very aggressive," they are now considering it for termination.
The animal was described as a 150-pound mountain lion.
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ya know, I think, if I go swimming in a lake full of alligators, I stand a good chance of being attacked by one of the more "aggressive" ones... maybe they should "flush out" those mean gators too :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Mountain Lion On Loose After Fatal Attack
Woman Is Also Attacked
POSTED: 6:05 PM PST January 8, 2004
UPDATED: 6:40 PM PST January 8, 2004
ORANGE COUNTY, Calif. -- One mountain biker is dead and another critically injured after two attacks by the same mountain lion.
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VOTE: Do You Fear Animal Attacks?
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On Thursday, four mountain bikers on a trail near Lake Forest in southern Orange County came across an abandoned mountain bike.
The group became alarmed and began to search for the missing person. While they were walking down a hill, a female biker was attacked by a mountain lion on her face and neck.
Shortly afterward, some of the searchers were able to locate the missing bicyclist, who had been mauled to death.
The woman who was attacked is in critical condition at a local hospital.
As night fell, park rangers were trying to flush out the mountain lion.
Officials said that they initially were trying to capture the animal, but because it keeps it is "very, very aggressive," they are now considering it for termination.
The animal was described as a 150-pound mountain lion.
The "Today Show" had an interview with 2 guys who saved the woman who was being mauled. They said they found her with the mountain lion holding her by her face while her riding partner, another woman, held onto her legs. The lion was trying to drag the victim into the brush while the partner was trying to drag her back into the open. The partner was losing. The guys picked up rocks and threw them at the lion and eventually the cat let go and ran off.
The three cyclists then used their shirts and jackets to cover the unconscious woman's body (they said she looked like she was no longer in this world but held out hope she might recover). Another cyclist came down the path and they used his sweatshirt to cover her face. The woman regained consciousness and tried to stand up. Eventually the rangers and paramedics showed up and gave her medical treatment. Later, the officers hunted the mountain lion down, killing one. They aren't certain yet if its the same one that attacked the bicyclists but it matches the description by the witnesses.
Pretty freaky stuff.
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They just confirmed on local news that they got the offending creature. They are still unsure about the chain of events. Some are speculating that the first (fatal) victim may have fallen and injured himself and the cat came upon him. The second victim may have been "too close to the food".
This is a hilly unimproved area surrounded by millions of people. This is the second fatal attack in the area over the past 15 years or so. People go in there thinking its just another park, even though signs are everywhere warning that it is lion country.
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im liberal as hell, but if you have seen what a cougar does to a kill and recognise they simply see us a prey. and are a stelth hunter i.e. they jump you from trees and hideing so a gun often is usless.
every one i see in the wild ( i dont go in deep wild woods)
dies.
most hunter texans i know feel the same way.
they are beutiful animals but they kill men as a matter of course.
now bobcats i never shoot. bear i have had the goodfortune never to see ( because hunters killed them all here by 1935.)