Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GRUNHERZ on November 26, 2003, 06:03:40 AM
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Fidel Castro came to power in 1959 and I'm curious if there is any decent data about the number of people his government has killed in Cuba to date? A breakdown by decade would be helpful, but is not required.
Anyone have an idea or could suggest a source?
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Nah, this is out of fashion. WMDs are much better accusations lately ;).
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Originally posted by Hristo
Nah, this is out of fashion. WMDs are much better accusations lately ;).
I think US will liberate Cuba and bring freedom & democracy there, to reduce the amount of illegal immigrants from there.
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Have you tried the Amnesty International website? Not sure if they keep stats there.
Ravs
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Originally posted by Fishu
I think US will liberate Cuba and bring freedom & democracy there, to reduce the amount of illegal immigrants from there.
Hmm, if the number of illegal immigrants is all important, shouldn't they liberate Mexico first ?
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what a troll.................
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When I was in high school, we were discussing the Bay of Pigs invasion and the Cuban Missile Crisis and such, and I asked him why we didn't follow through with the invasion of Cuba and put an end to Castro right then and there instead of having to deal with an unfriendly nation right off our shores. His response was pretty basic: what's there that we would need to invade it? The resources in Cuba can be found elsewhere. Sugar, tobacco, even tourism can be found either in the US or in other Caribbean nations such as the Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico.
And so we wait for the Cuban government to change on its own.
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You will not find honest data on that Groinhurtz... Cuba is too much of an isolationists government. I am very curious to see what the next 5 years brings. I figure Castro will finally kick the bucket before then.
MiniD
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Originally posted by gofaster
When I was in high school, we were discussing the Bay of Pigs invasion and the Cuban Missile Crisis and such, and I asked him why we didn't follow through with the invasion of Cuba and put an end to Castro right then and there instead of having to deal with an unfriendly nation right off our shores. His response was pretty basic: what's there that we would need to invade it? The resources in Cuba can be found elsewhere. Sugar, tobacco, even tourism can be found either in the US or in other Caribbean nations such as the Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico.
And so we wait for the Cuban government to change on its own.
Isn't Kennedy's Agreement with the former USSR the reason we never invaded?
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We have been selling commodities to the Cubans for the last 2 years,, and all I can say is that as soon as the good Comrade is gone you will see huge changes down there.
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While we are on the subject, I have a question. How many people where killed in the Dominican Republic by Trujillo and his US backed government before he was assasinated?
As for Cuba, there have been quite a few, but like MiniD said, its hard to know. Even if you found good data, you'd probably be disapointed. There have been quite a few executions, but most people in Cuba are suprisingly loyal to Fidel, as retarded as that may seem. And the ones who are not, do their best to leave the place in their not so luxurious yatchs.
By the way, Cuba is not as ****ed up as you'd believe. If you dont believe me, take a visit. But that is hard now, as the US government is making it incredibly hard now for students to go to Cuba.
Cuba is a simple place full of simple people. No one is starving, but no one has what we would consider material luxuries. Not even Fidel himself, except that he gets food prepared any time he wants.
The the old school looks of the place reflect its senile leader. For a good insight on present Cuba, watch Oliver's Stone recent documentary "El Comandante". Its interesting, and Fidel is surprisingly open to Oliver.
He does say a blatant lie in one part, when he claims no one has been tortured by his party.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Fidel Castro came to power in 1959 and I'm curious if there is any decent data about the number of people his government has killed in Cuba to date? A breakdown by decade would be helpful, but is not required.
Anyone have an idea or could suggest a source?
None, they were all criminals and traitors !
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Originally posted by Animal
Even if you found good data, you'd probably be disapointed. There have been quite a few executions, but most people in Cuba are suprisingly loyal to Fidel, as retarded as that may seem. And the ones who are not, do their best to leave the place in their not so luxurious yatchs.
I guess that explains why there are more Cubans in Miami than Havana.
Cuba is a simple place full of simple people. No one is starving, but no one has what we would consider material luxuries. Not even Fidel himself, except that he gets food prepared any time he wants.
Yea I guess it is not North Korea but would you move to the workers paradise??
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Qooooooooooba is #1 in Sustained Organic Commerical Farming.
Anyone else find that very interesting considering its' isolation from the almighty Monsantos and the Chemical lobby groups.:rolleyes:
GO Qoooooooooba, nice beaches Mank!:aok
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// counter troll mode on
it remind me of those poor Guantanamo(*) prisonner of the US capitalist pigs
// counter troll mode off
(*) who is the moron who named this place ? it's a spelling nightmare !
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Originally posted by straffo
// counter troll mode on
it remind me of those poor Guantanamo(*) prisonner of the US capitalist pigs
// counter troll mode off
(*) who is the moron who named this place ? it's a spelling nightmare !
lmao straffo
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Just call it Gitmo. It's easier to spell.
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So does anybody know? I was simply asking a question beacuse I dont have any idea...
BTW What am I to make of the responses in this thread by some of the more liberal guys, it almost seems you guys are reflexivly jumping to Castro's defense by attacking me for asking about his murdersor and trying to deflect the subject to supposed US attrocities, others are even jumping in with compltely unrelated complements about Cuban organic farming techinques. I guess you guys will jump all over what I just said, but why respond in such a manner? I know such things are a matter of perception but thats what struck me upon reading some of the responses...
Also kappa why did you say it was a troll, what stake do you have in this this to percieve it as a troll?
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Grun,
Do you really see Cuba as a opressed country? I cant...
The country is 100% literate....
The people are happy...
The people have health coverage......
Most the people have jobs........
Have you known of a mass murder taking place in Cuba??
Castro wanted a relationship with america... America in turn pushed him away... He came to us first... We said no....
My step father has been there... Passport not stamped of course.. They will not stamp american's passports.. What he saw of the country was not unlike Mexico... Poor people yes, but people with food, shelter, and medical coverage... He spoke of happy families... He spoke of smiling children.... He spoke of dailey commerce and exchange of goods and services... He spoke of a kind caring people.... Nowhere, that he related to me was evidence of a brutal dictatorship...
Not all revolutions are bad........
Hate for Castro has festered long....
And... o ya... Castro is luved by his people.. He gave them what they did not have before... food, shelter, education.. etc...
k
AoM
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Also kappa why did you say it was a troll, what stake do you have in this this to percieve it as a troll?
Everything you posts are percived as trolls....
My brother has been to cuba and he said the same thing kappa posted...
Alot of happy people.
Life quality and life standard is two COMPLETLY different things....
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Well, if you went to Iraq pre Gulf War 2, you saw alot of happy Iraqis too... Totalitarian dictatorships have that effect on ppl...look happy or face the consequences...
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Well, if you went to Iraq pre Gulf War 2, you saw alot of happy Iraqis too...
So, what year where you there?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Well, if you went to Iraq pre Gulf War 2, you saw alot of happy Iraqis too... Totalitarian dictatorships have that effect on ppl...look happy or face the consequences...
way off subject here Hortlund... but who is the swedish foppa???
k
AoM
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Originally posted by kappa
Grun,
Do you really see Cuba as a opressed country? I cant...
The country is 100% literate....
The people are happy...
The people have health coverage......
Most the people have jobs........
Have you known of a mass murder taking place in Cuba??
Castro wanted a relationship with america... America in turn pushed him away... He came to us first... We said no....
My step father has been there... Passport not stamped of course.. They will not stamp american's passports.. What he saw of the country was not unlike Mexico... Poor people yes, but people with food, shelter, and medical coverage... He spoke of happy families... He spoke of smiling children.... He spoke of dailey commerce and exchange of goods and services... He spoke of a kind caring people.... Nowhere, that he related to me was evidence of a brutal dictatorship...
Not all revolutions are bad........
Hate for Castro has festered long....
And... o ya... Castro is luved by his people.. He gave them what they did not have before... food, shelter, education.. etc...
k
AoM
Kappa I'm sure you know that similar things were said of Stalin in the 1930s, the USSR was described as a wonderland in countless glowing reports of visitors to the country. I'm certainly not saying it's the same or close in Cuba but you never know what goes on behind closed doors in dicatorships..
If it is so wonderful why does Castro not allow democracy? If it's so wonderful why do thousands risk 90 miles of shark infested ocean and cuban military patrols and god knows what punishment to escape to the USA?
And still does anyone know how manyCastro killed?
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Originally posted by kappa
Grun,
Do you really see Cuba as a opressed country? I cant...
The country is 100% literate....
The people are happy...
The people have health coverage......
Most the people have jobs........
Have you known of a mass murder taking place in Cuba??
Castro wanted a relationship with america... America in turn pushed him away... He came to us first... We said no....
My step father has been there... Passport not stamped of course.. They will not stamp american's passports.. What he saw of the country was not unlike Mexico... Poor people yes, but people with food, shelter, and medical coverage... He spoke of happy families... He spoke of smiling children.... He spoke of dailey commerce and exchange of goods and services... He spoke of a kind caring people.... Nowhere, that he related to me was evidence of a brutal dictatorship...
Not all revolutions are bad........
Hate for Castro has festered long....
And... o ya... Castro is luved by his people.. He gave them what they did not have before... food, shelter, education.. etc...
k
AoM
Someone said "Wherever there is a jackboot stomping on a human face, there will be a liberal there pointing out that the face afterall, enjoys the benefits of being literate and having a job"
Fitting really.
You dont have a ****ing clue. You dont. So just shut the **** up.
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If it is so wonderful why does Castro not allow democracy? If it's so wonderful why do thousands risk 90 miles of shark infested ocean and cuban military patrols and god knows what punishment to escape to the USA?
They heard about the X-Box?
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How bout we invade Cuba and see if it turns out as good as Iraq?
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Originally posted by Maniac
They heard about the X-Box?
You make jokes about their reasons for fleeing Cuba in such dangerous ways. Thousands risk their lives, their families lives , their childrens lives on 90 milies of open ocean, sharks, deadly currents and the Cuban military and you make jokes.. :(
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:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by davidpt40
How bout we invade Cuba and see if it turns out as good as Iraq?
Why not? I hear Miami is nice this time of year.
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How bout we invade Cuba and see if it turns out as good as Iraq?
Ya, i would sign up instantly, as long as i got a piece of property down there for the effort...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Kappa I'm sure you know that similar things were said of Stalin in the 1930s, the USSR was described as a wonderland in countless glowing reports of visitors to the country. I'm certainly not saying it's the same or close in Cuba but you never know what goes on behind closed doors in dicatorships..
If it is so wonderful why does Castro not allow democracy? If it's so wonderful why do thousands risk 90 miles of shark infested ocean and cuban military patrols and god knows what punishment to escape to the USA?
And still does anyone know how manyCastro killed?
naw grun.. I didnt think about Stalin.... Im not saying the have heaven on earth... Im saying the have a pleasent meger existance with food and medical care... They have newspapers.. Tv... I did not mean to describe Zen...... I meant to describe a populas free from tyranny.(even if I could spell)
So, I guess in a nut shell, many of them have what I dont... health coverage...... Soon for me though.. 8)
About 9,000 peps move to canada each year form the US... How many mexicans do you think come to america each year?? How many other foreign immigrants come to america each yr?? I would think the non-cuban immigrants would by far out shadow the cuban peps..
I only know for certain what my s-father saw.. I dont know what was said in 1930 russia or any other place as far as that goes.. I only wanted to make the point Cuba is NOT the ruled under thumb hell on earth some propagandist might want to express..
Hortlund... whats the Swedish foppa???
k
AoM
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Hortlund... whats the Swedish foppa???
You mean Peter Forsberg?
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damn maniac.. i dont think dude is from sweden... hortlund that is
k
aom
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Someone said "Wherever there is a jackboot stomping on a human face, there will be a liberal there pointing out that the face afterall, enjoys the benefits of being literate and having a job"
Fitting really.
You dont have a ****ing clue. You dont. So just shut the **** up.
Its funny seeing a total ignorant telling others they dont have a clue.
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Originally posted by kappa
naw grun.. I didnt think about Stalin.... Im not saying the have heaven on earth... Im saying the have a pleasent meger existance with food and medical care... They have newspapers.. Tv... I did not mean to describe Zen...... I meant to describe a populas free from tyranny.(even if I could spell)
So, I guess in a nut shell, many of them have what I dont... health coverage...... Soon for me though.. 8)
About 9,000 peps move to canada each year form the US... How many mexicans do you think come to america each year?? How many other foreign immigrants come to america each yr?? I would think the non-cuban immigrants would by far out shadow the cuban peps..
I only know for certain what my s-father saw.. I dont know what was said in 1930 russia or any other place as far as that goes.. I only wanted to make the point Cuba is NOT the ruled under thumb hell on earth some propagandist might want to express..
k
AoM
The same was said of Stalin, people had work, eduaction, food and health - most of all they were describes as "heppy." really not so different than the propaganda we see out of Cuba..
As for "free" communist healtrh care, I had the benefit of free communist health care in Yugoslavia - perhaps the wealtiest and most progressive of the communist countries of all time. Anyway I can show you how "free" that health care was with the enourmous dental work I had done in the USA to correct the easily fixed stuff that the "free" communist health services had let pass early on...
There is a reason that Castro maintains power to himself. There is a reason for all the censorship of media. There is a reason for all the political prisoners. There is areason thousands risk the lives of their families to escape. Perhaps those people dont see the same fine tourist areas that foreigneres see.
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Really Grun, you should visit Cuba. And I'm not talking about the plush hotels that show you what Castro wants you to see. Go visit the country.
It will be a revelation, maybe even a disapointment.
I'm not defending poor old half senile Castro and his outdated form of government, but what you think of Cuba is wrong.
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Perhaps those people dont see the same fine tourist areas that foreigneres see.
You sir have no clue. Book a ticket and get off your bellybutton and go there and see for yourself.
My brother and his friends travelled the whole country on their own... No fear for being mugged or anything...
Like i said earlier in this thread : life quality and life standards are two completly different things.
The ones who want to leave? well heck i guess they feel like 99% of us in the "free world" we always look for something "better"...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
The same was said of Stalin, people had work, eduaction, food and health - most of all they were describes as "heppy." really not so different than the propaganda we see out of Cuba..
As for "free" communist healtrh care, I had the benefit of free communist health care in Yugoslavia - perhaps the wealtiest and most progressive of the communist countries of all time. Anyway I can show you how "free" that health care was with the enourmous dental work I had done in the USA to correct the easily fixed stuff that the "free" communist health services had let pass early on...
There is a reason that Castro maintains power to himself. There is a reason for all the censorship of media. There is a reason for all the political prisoners. There is areason thousands risk the lives of their families to escape. Perhaps those people dont see the same fine tourist areas that foreigneres see.
Your prolly right. America even has places folks wanna get away from. I think that is inherrient no matter where you go..
Mexico city (which i have seen) is not at all like rural mexico... People have money... The vast majority of folks are middle class well to do folks with MONEY! But still Mexico city, being among the largest cities in the world, has it's slums...
Let me put this question to you... Why cant americans go there? No flights leave continental US for Cuba.. Its illegal... Cubans LUV americans for obvious reasons... think about it... which side doesnt want us there... 12months ago, we could even goto iraqi if we wanted...
im off now... ck my other thread if any get a chance.. 8)
k
AoM
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I saw much, MUCH worse living conditions in Mexico.
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Originally posted by Animal
I saw much, MUCH worse living conditions in Mexico.
I wonder of the millions that have fled Cuba to the US how many are sending money to relatives back home?
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Originally posted by kappa
Grun,
Do you really see Cuba as a opressed country? I cant...
The country is 100% literate....
The people are happy...
The people have health coverage......
Most the people have jobs........
Have you known of a mass murder taking place in Cuba??
Castro wanted a relationship with america... America in turn pushed him away... He came to us first... We said no....
My step father has been there... Passport not stamped of course.. They will not stamp american's passports.. What he saw of the country was not unlike Mexico... Poor people yes, but people with food, shelter, and medical coverage... He spoke of happy families... He spoke of smiling children.... He spoke of dailey commerce and exchange of goods and services... He spoke of a kind caring people.... Nowhere, that he related to me was evidence of a brutal dictatorship...
Not all revolutions are bad........
Hate for Castro has festered long....
And... o ya... Castro is luved by his people.. He gave them what they did not have before... food, shelter, education.. etc...
k
AoM
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39320000/jpg/_39320767_chevyboat_203_index.jpg)
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You see but unlike you guys I have personal living experience in a communist country, and you cant really compare it to democracatic countries. The people may be friendly and outwardly happy but unless you lived it yourself its very hard to understand the sort of pressures they are under and the forces working on them. They are just not free, despite all the care and education they have.
Look at it this way. I'm sure many of you guys here defending Cuba are also against the Bush policies on terror war - thats a fair statement I think. Why are you against him? I mean the USA is wealthy, it has lots of food lots of happy people - why complain? maybe some of you complain because of patriot act restrictions, maybe some compain about bush secrecy, or about iraq.
Well imagine how you (yourself personally) would complain, if you could, against the castro restrictions. Of course they largely cant speak out because itsa one part dictaorship with limited speech rights. So how much value do you place on (poor quality communist - my experience) health care then? Imagine if there were punsihments for speaking out, would you risk your family?
With the governemt controling the economy, health and education its very easy for them to take it away from troublemakers - and that stuff happends a lot. Or the reverse happends, officials favor their friends for the best care to the detriment of the average guy.
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Look at it this way. I'm sure many of you guys here defending Cuba are also against the Bush policies on terror war - thats a fair statement I think. Why are you against him? I mean the USA is wealthy, it has lots of food lots of happy people - why complain? maybe some of you complain because of patriot act restrictions, maybe some compain about bush secrecy, or about iraq.
Im not defending anyone, im djust giving you feedback from someone whos been there in person, why? because of the views of Cuba you posted earlier in this thread....
War on Terrorism? i think that all terrorists should be taken care of...
As far as the Iraq war goes, im djust pissed over the WMD issue to start the war, ive said all along that if Bush said something along the way like this : Were going in to kill Saddam
Then he would have got my respect...
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Will answer my own question. A lot of money is going to Cuba from the US.
http://havanajournal.com/culture_comments/P211_0_3_0/
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Unless you have lived in CUBA your arguement is invalid.
But anyways, I see where you are coming from. This is not about Cuba, but about you attacking everything you perceive as wrong in your simplistic bipolar black and white manner.
Funny, I dont believe in comunism. I wouldnt like living in Cuba because I love traveling and owning nice things. But I'm telling you that you are completly wrong if you believe that hundreds of people are killed by Castro, that they live inhumanely, or anything else.
I dont know how life is in Croatia, never been there, but just because you lived in a comunist country does not mean you know about every comunist country.
That is like saying that because the Dominican Republic is a democratic, capitalist country, its alright. But more people flee from the Dominican Republic to Puerto Rico than they do from Cuba to Florida every year. And I have been in the Dominican Republic countless times, and I would rather live in Cuba as everyone does there, than be poor in DR (althought it would be wonderful to be rich in DR)
I know you will dismiss everything I say because you think I'm a liberal, which is untrue. Its a shame you just cant grasp anything that is not either black or white.
Originally posted by AKIron
Will answer my own question. A lot of money is going to Cuba from the US.
http://havanajournal.com/culture_comments/P211_0_3_0/
Of course, if you live anywhere and someone is sending you money that is worth much more than the local currency, of course you want to keep it coming.
My mother is making herself rich because she owns a business that deals with sending american money to the Dominican Republic.
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Read the link I posted Animal. According to it people in Cuba would be starving if not for money from the US.
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Cuba could live off fish from the ocean if need be.
Personally, I would take friendly neighbors and low crime over riches any day.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Read the link I posted Animal. According to it people in Cuba would be starving if not for money from the US.
I edited my post with a reply to you.
No, people in Cuba would not be starving if they didnt receive money from America, that is wrong.
But its nice getting a lot of cash, especially cash worth much more than the local currency. You can buy lots of things (of the few nice things you can buy in Cuba)
Look, I'm not telling you that Cuba is a fantastic wonderful place worth living. I wouldnt want to live there. I'm just pointing out that what most people think of Cuba is just wrong.
Cubans are MUCH better than most Dominicans, Mexicans, Peruvians, Bolivians, and Argentinians.
Of course that doesnt mean Cubans live nearly as well as we do, they are just not so down the scale as you would believe.
The reason such a fuss is raised over Cuba is because its a Comunist government. Simple as that.
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Cuba could live off fish from the ocean if need be.
Personally, I would take friendly neighbors and low crime over riches any day.
And you live where? Just wondering how seriously to take your statement.
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Cuba could live off fish from the ocean if need be.
Personally, I would take friendly neighbors and low crime over riches any day.
Now this is also as ignorant as anything the others have said.
I would NEVER trade what I have now to live in Cuba. And if you visited, neither would you.
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Originally posted by Animal
Unless you have lived in CUBA your arguement is invalid.
But anyways, I see where you are coming from. This is not about Cuba, but about you attacking everything you perceive as wrong in your simplistic bipolar black and white manner.
Funny, I dont believe in comunism. I wouldnt like living in Cuba because I love traveling and owning nice things. But I'm telling you that you are completly wrong if you believe that hundreds of people are killed by Castro, that they live inhumanely, or anything else.
I dont know how life is in Croatia, never been there, but just because you lived in a comunist country does not mean you know about every comunist country.
That is like saying that because the Dominican Republic is a democratic, capitalist country, its alright. But more people flee from the Dominican Republic to Puerto Rico than they do from Cuba to Florida every year. And I have been in the Dominican Republic countless times, and I would rather live in Cuba as everyone does there, than be poor in DR (althought it would be wonderful to be rich in DR)
I know you will dismiss everything I say because you think I'm a liberal, which is untrue. Its a shame you just cant grasp anything that is not either black or white.
Of course, if you live anywhere and someone is sending you money that is worth much more than the local currency, of course you want to keep it coming.
My mother is making herself rich because she owns a business that deals with sending american money to the Dominican Republic.
All the communist countries are more or less the same in what they do to people in spirit - just ask some of the old communist expats here. Like i said unless you lived it you would not understand. From the outside (your perspective) it looks fine and dandy but from the inside (our perspective) its much more complicated.
I take it you will no longer criticize any UG governmet policy then? From what you have told us your preference is for material wealth over freedom and again you have told us over the years that you are well off financially in the USA/PR with a brand new corvette car, expensive flying lessons, and extensive travels. So you have no need to comalin about the government bause you are well offf materially. ceratinly thats what yiu are saying goes on in cuba, castro feeds them and they are "happy" and so have no reason to complain.
What you are saying is that you support the castro dictorship with its human rights abuses because it gives people health care and they "seem" happy?
lets step back for a second, the year is 2003 and there are people arguing for a communist dicatorship! Remarkable!
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Oh david, as forv the "low crime."
The USSR more or less "offically" had no crime and no prisons in their country.
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lets step back for a second, the year is 2003 and there are people arguing for a communist dicatorship! Remarkable!
No we are challanging your distorted view of Cuba... Thats all... Nothing else...
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You really don't have a clue do you?;)
Like some said book a ticket and go see for yourself, oh but yah your own govn't has restriction on your travel there. What was that aboot facism?:aok
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It's funny to watch people argue about things when neither side has any real knowledge on the subject. It turns into a contest to see who can project their beliefs the best.
P.S. 100% literacy is impossible... drop that argument. If there is 100% literacy in Cuba, then they get it by executing those incable of learning to read.
MiniD
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I heard people who try and flee Cuba are executed? Anyone else hear this? I do not remember where?
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*sigh*
When have I said I prefered material wealth over freedom? I like material wealth, its nice, but I value freedom above everything.
Quote me, when have I said I would like to live in Cuba? When have I defended Comunist ideals, or even Fidel himself? I dont like Comunism. I have said it over and over again on this board. I know you cant grasp, because anyone who disagrees with you on things, is automatically a liberal/comunist lover/terrorist lover/whatever ludicrous persona your mind projects.
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You see but unlike you guys I have personal living experience in a communist country, and you cant really compare it to democracatic countries. [/i]
Do you honestly believe that Cuba is worse than ANY democratic country?
Have you been anywhere that is not Croatia, or the USA?
Cause that is what is seems like.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
I heard people who try and flee Cuba are executed? Anyone else hear this? I do not remember where?
Another "Fear the boogie-man!" lie.
They are put in jail for some time. Probably beaten up too, or something harsh. I know Cubans who attempted to flee several times before they succeeded.
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Ok here is an important question.
If we opened trade with Cuba would the price of Cuban cigars go down? Would the Cubans age them before they sell them?
Are they really rolled on the thighs of cuban virgins? :aok
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Now this is also as ignorant as anything the others have said.
I would NEVER trade what I have now to live in Cuba. And if you visited, neither would you.
Who wouldn't want to live in a tropical fishing village or tropical farming community? Theres more to life than spending hours a day on the Aces High BBS.
The best things in life have nothing to do with technology : Relationships, running, fishing, eating.
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f we opened trade with Cuba would the price of Cuban cigars go down?
Well i guess you buy them from smugglers? then i guess its more expensive, i got a whole carton of em from my brother and he did not pay too much for em when he was there :)
I smoke one Cohiba every new years eve :aok
Are they really rolled on the thighs of cuban virgins?
You dont want to see the hands that rolls these :D
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Who wouldn't want to live in a tropical fishing village or tropical farming community? Theres more to life than spending hours a day on the Aces High BBS.
This is very true, im currently looking into changing my life dramatically, i will know how my life will turn out in february, we are 3 friends that "might" give up life standards for more life quality...
But we will see how it turns out... better not to say too much...
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Originally posted by Maniac
This is very true, im currently looking into changing my life dramatically, i will know how my life will turn out in february, we are 3 friends that "might" give up life standards for more life quality...
But we will see how it turns out... better not to say too much...
Sounds like one of those Richard Simmons Communes you hear about on the infomercials.
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Maniac
I have bought one bootleg at like 100 bucks a pop. That was years ago and I prolly got ripped.
I still have 3 or 4 cohibas in my humidor. (in storage :( )
I have a budy who likes to go to Cuba on vacation, he did so twice and both times brought home a bunch of cuban cigars.
I did not like them at first, to strong, but after a year in the humidor they where awsome. hehe
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Sounds like one of those Richard Simmons Communes you hear about on the infomercials.
Huh?
Richard Simmons? no idea who he is and i dont want to know either...
Imagine a paradise island with about 10 - 15 Bungalows on it and then you will get closer...
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Originally posted by Animal
*sigh*
When have I said I prefered material wealth over freedom? I like material wealth, its nice, but I value freedom above everything.
Quote me, when have I said I would like to live in Cuba? When have I defended Comunist ideals, or even Fidel himself? I dont like Comunism. I have said it over and over again on this board. I know you cant grasp, because anyone who disagrees with you on things, is automatically a liberal/comunist lover/terrorist lover/whatever ludicrous persona your mind projects.
Do you honestly believe that Cuba is worse than ANY democratic country?
Have you been anywhere that is not Croatia, or the USA?
Cause that is what is seems like.
So you value freedom over anything else but you defend Castro's one party communist dictatorship because it provides some material goods to people.
Stop lying Animal... Which is it?
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All I have been pointing out is that Cuba is not as ****ed up as you would think it is. That is all I and Maniac have been trying to say. It has nothing to do with my ideals. I dont know how I am defending a man and his government by saying that he is senile and outdated.
The truth is that you have a very bipolar way of seeing things. You say what you think is the truth, if someone tells you that its not accurate, you bring their ideals into question. An educated man with such a way of reasoning is embarassing.
Funny that you call me a liar and a defender of comunism. Last monday in college I was having an arguement with an anti-american young comunist about the US, the war, the Fidel documentary, etc.
It got pretty heated, in the end he dismissed me as a pro-american fascist, just because I did not agree with his anti american blabble, and because I told him Fidel was lying about not torturing dissidents.
You are just like him, except on the other side of the political scale.
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Well animal I hope you can understand my sensitivity towrads communism. On the surface, as a tourist, it can seem ok but the reality in communist system is different. There is a reason why people dont tll you the bad things...
As for view being seeming to be polar, I think thats largely a product of the BBS. Real life communication is more flexible and dynamic which allows me to be more clear as much of what I say is in a high-context style and is metaphorical - I suppose thats how people communicated around me where i grew up.
Look the standard of living in old yugoslavia was pretty high, yet they still had secret police and political prisoners and censorship and human rights issues. It seems to me that you are saying Cuba's health programs and whatnot somehow make up for the fact that its an opressive dictatorship. You yourself implied that you dont think its any worse there than any democracy. If this is what you are saying then we simply disagree.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Look the standard of living in old yugoslavia was pretty high, yet they still had secret police and political prisoners and censorship and human rights issues. It seems to me that you are saying Cuba's health programs and whatnot somehow make up for the fact that its an opressive dictatorship. You yourself implied that you dont think its any worse there than any democracy. If this is what you are saying then we simply disagree.
You must be confusing me with kappa. I never said any of that. I know what Cuba is and how things work there, I have seen it first hand. Like I said before, I would never live there.
All I have been saying is that dont believe that Comunism is automatically the worst thing. Yeah, its stupid and ill conceived. But there are places that are much worse off and no one cares because the way their government works are not as controversial as comunism.
When I say Cuba is better than the Dominican Republic or Mexico, I'm not saying it out of ideal - I honestly believe in democracy, and I am lucky to have been born where I am. I know that moving from Croatia to the USA was a radical change for you, and you would never go back. But you said something in this thread that I believe is wrong. You said that you cant compare Yugoslavia with a democratic country. I hope you dont mean ANY democratic country.
Cause in many democracies, if you dont have money, you are better off somewhere else, including Cuba.
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My personal opinion is that Cuba's hour will come sooner than later and Fidel Castro will be ousted. Once he does fall American companies and Cuban Enterpeneurs will descend on the island bringing ecnomic growth at an astounding rate. Once it does this I think it will become one of the richest countries if not the richest in the Carribbean.
I think there's something brewing but I don't know when I just know it'll happen if Bush remains in office.
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Up until the mid-late 1950's before Castro, Cuba was a very popular destination for Americans and it will be again when Castro is gone.
A lot of money and oppertunity will again flow into Cuba..... and the Cuban people will benifit from it most I hope.
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Originally posted by kappa
Grun,
Do you really see Cuba as a opressed country? I cant...
The country is 100% literate....
The people are happy...
The people have health coverage......
Most the people have jobs........
Have you known of a mass murder taking place in Cuba??
Castro wanted a relationship with america... America in turn pushed him away... He came to us first... We said no....
My step father has been there... Passport not stamped of course.. They will not stamp american's passports.. What he saw of the country was not unlike Mexico... Poor people yes, but people with food, shelter, and medical coverage... He spoke of happy families... He spoke of smiling children.... He spoke of dailey commerce and exchange of goods and services... He spoke of a kind caring people.... Nowhere, that he related to me was evidence of a brutal dictatorship...
Not all revolutions are bad........
Hate for Castro has festered long....
And... o ya... Castro is luved by his people.. He gave them what they did not have before... food, shelter, education.. etc...
k
AoM
You might be interested to know that Cuba had one of the lowest infant mortality rates, highest literacy rate, among highest doctors per 100,000 , 1 hospital bed per 190 people, most poeple had jobs, people were happy.... ALL BEFORE CASTRO.
One difference: 62% of Cuban industry was owned by private Cuban citizens. Most people were also free.
So in other words, Castro did not bring anything new to the people other than oppression.
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Originally posted by NUKE
You might be interested to know that Cuba had one of the lowest infant mortality rates, highest literacy rate, among highest doctors per 100,000 , 1 hospital bed per 190 people, most poeple had jobs, people were happy.... ALL BEFORE CASTRO.
whhhaaaaaaat?!
are you talking about the same cuba we are talking? are you talking Batista's regime?
dude... read!!! cuba was a HELLHOLE for the common people under Batista. Sure, it was great if you were rich.. and it was great for tourists, but that place was a prime example of a country with only two, very distinct classes. The revolution came and succeeded for a reason.
And the only reason Fidel has not been overthrown is that, although his dictatorship sucks, things are better than they were before, under Batista.
Fidel is a dictator, Batista was a tyrant.
Dude, who led you to believe that things were nice under Batista?
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LOL GRUNHERZ= fat boy on leather chair talking about politics on his fast pc. Latino Girls laugh at you in Cali in the lunch room?
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Originally posted by Regular
LOL GRUNHERZ= fat boy on leather chair talking about politics on his fast pc. Latino Girls laugh at you in Cali in the lunch room?
Nice! :rolleyes:
You know at one point in my life I might have been angry at you for making fun of my weight, but now all I feel is pity for you.
Have a happy Thanksgiving, I hope you enjoy your family gathering and have a great time - perhaps it will be of help to you.
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Originally posted by Regular
LOL GRUNHERZ= fat boy on leather chair talking about politics.
A comment like yours deserves nothing more than YOU being banned from the BB. What point do you have?
Grunhertz seems to be a pretty intelligent guy to me, while you seem very dim.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Nice! :rolleyes:
Grun, he registered in 2000 and has 91 posts...... he really thinks long and hard before he posts such inspiring material.
My guess is that he's a moron.
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Happy Thanksgiving !
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You make jokes about their reasons for fleeing Cuba in such dangerous ways. Thousands risk their lives, their families lives , their childrens lives on 90 milies of open ocean, sharks, deadly currents and the Cuban military and you make jokes.. :(
Maybe if we had a policy of sending them back they wouldn't risk it.
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Originally posted by Montezuma
Maybe if we had a policy of sending them back they wouldn't risk it.
So let me get this right, you blame the USA for these people making the decision to flee a dictatorship?
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Why is it that the people that say citizens are "happy" due to the "benifits" of a communist/dictatorship system fail to mention the fact that the citizens risk their lives just to try to escape?
East Germany was such a paradise that the Russians had to make a wall and shoot people who tried to leave.
If Cuba is so great, why is there a penalty for trying to leave it?
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Within 10 years Cuba will be a holiday destination for Yanks.
Brits have never had restrictions on going to Cuba; my parents went last year and loved it. I can see the tourism angle being very lucrative for the island in the near future.
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One thing that I dont agree with is the embargo. Unless there some secret reason behind it the only cause for it I see is the political influence of the Florida Cuban community. It just doesnt make senses since the USA has normal relations even with Vietnam, a US navy ship just visted Saigon/HCMC and of course we had normal realtions with USSR which was just as responsible or more for the missle crisis as was Castro. Not to mention china as well.
But still I hope you guys dan understand my unesyness when I see praise for Cuba's health system - its no different for me than saying that the trains ran on time in Italy under Musollini.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
One thing that I dont agree with is the embargo. Unless there some secret reason behind it the only cause for it I see is the political influence of the Florida Cuban community. It just doesnt make senses since the USA has normal relations even with Vietnam, a US navy ship just visted Saigon/HCMC and of course we had normal realtions with USSR which was just as responsible or more for the missle crisis as was Castro. Not to mention china as well.
But still I hope you guys dan understand my unesyness when I see praise for Cuba's health system - its no different for me than saying that the trains ran on time in Italy under Musollini.
Nothing wrong with your questioning what's going on at all :)
I also agree that the embargo (and blacklisting) of Cuba is kind of hypocritical since we allow free trade with China. Nice to see we're relaxing against Vietnam.
However, none of us here actually live in Cuba both under Batista AND Castro so we can't say for sure what's being reported is propaganda or fact. Are all socialized programs the same? Is the socialized medical care under Castro the same as that under former Yugoslavia the same as the present Canada? Animal claims to have visited there so I'd take his word over one that hasn't as far as attitudes go. Apparently the Cuban people haven't shared their fear of their medical care.
BTW, how many Haitian refugees try to escape from Haiti compared to Cuban refugees from Cuba? Why are the Hatians usually sent back while the Cuban refugees are almost always accepted?
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Nothing wrong with your questioning what's going on at all :)
I also agree that the embargo (and blacklisting) of Cuba is kind of hypocritical since we allow free trade with China. Nice to see we're relaxing against Vietnam.
However, none of us here actually live in Cuba both under Batista AND Castro so we can't say for sure what's being reported is propaganda or fact. Are all socialized programs the same? Is the socialized medical care under Castro the same as that under former Yugoslavia the same as the present Canada? Animal claims to have visited there so I'd take his word over one that hasn't as far as attitudes go. Apparently the Cuban people haven't shared their fear of their medical care.
BTW, how many Haitian refugees try to escape from Haiti compared to Cuban refugees from Cuba? Why are the Hatians usually sent back while the Cuban refugees are almost always accepted?
Prolly for the same reason as the emargo.
The problem i have with Animal's visit to cuba is that he was a tourist - an outsider with an outsiders view that can never match that of a person living there.
In Yugoslavia I grew up in a small town where fishing and tourism - especially tourism were the big industries. So every summer thousands of tourists from all over europe would come there to our town on vacation living in hotels and even in peoples homes as every local house rented out rooms. And these people simply did not experience what it was like to live there the whole year as a citizen. For example they had very little interaction with the police, but you should see the mood change on local people when the police showed up in town - there was just something ominous about it. Plus the toursits knew very little about the secret police and the political thugs - because it was very dangerous to talk about them to anyone. So from my perspective I cant really put much weight into Animal's vistis to cuba, I know how people under an opressive communist police state behave around tourists - I lived it. Sorry Animal, Im sure you will dismiss this as it comes from me, but in all honesty you only saw part of the picture in your visits.
You simply have to come to the question that if all is so great in Cuba why does Castro keep censoring the media and suppresing democratic movents and not allowing elections. If, as you say the people love him so honestly an open free election would be a simple thing to do to confirm it. Yet castro does not. If he has provided such nice things should he not expect that his citizens would reward him in an open election? and thats the problem aninal, the Cubans arent free, they have limited righrts, limited acess to information, and few choices as the state provides and so controls so many daily needs.
What I feel is that you as somebody who has enjoyed prosparity and democracy your whole life simply take it for granted and dont value it as much as me who had to do come to another country to have that democracy be a choice for me. To that end, I think that you are limited in perspective.
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I visisted Cuba in 2001 with a student group, and we stayed for a week and a half, living in dorms at the Universidad de la Habana.
Most of the students there are VERY pro Castro; brainwashed as far as I could tell. But most of them were pretty respectful of what we had to say, althought we didnt say much, except to answer all of their questions (LOTS). Sometimes they talked with some awful misconceptions of the world outside, and I corrected them slightly.
I did travel outside the university, on my own, with a few other students. I used the bus system and visited a few local towns. I certainly did not look like a tourist, and tried not to act like one. Maybe they recognized me a few times. But its not like I look out of place in Cuba :p
Its like going back in time, everything is old. But not once did I see famine or something that made me feel sad, like in Dominican Republic or Mexico.
Children LOVE sports in Cuba, and thats pretty much all they do when they are not at school. Play baseball, etc. In the poor parts of Dominican Republic or Mexico, kids dont have the luxury of playing much sports or even going to school. You cant go twenty yards walking without some kids begging you for money or food.
I'll try to get some pics scanned later.
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Animal,
I'm sure communist countries can look nice, the governemt can always spernd money on diversions and activities especially for children - thats how they suck children in. In Yugoslavia we had lots of sports and youth political indoctorination by the state. But look what those kids gave up, they were brainwashed like you said. And the ones you met arent the only ones as the government runs all the schools. You see how everyone could then tell you they were happy? You give up your mind and your freedom for some promise of material goods, thats what communism has always been doing. BTW they knew you were tourist and definitely an "outsider" from 10 miles away, even speaking the same language or looking ethnically the same the locals can spot you instantly and in most cases secretly make fun of you, love your money but hate your guts for bothering them. ;)
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Grun, you're acting like a tool. Animal has actually been to Cuba, you haven't.
It's like you are debating LOTR with someone who's seen, when you haven't.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Grun, you're acting like a tool. Animal has actually been to Cuba, you haven't.
It's like you are debating LOTR with someone who's seen, when you haven't.
But I'm telling from my experiencs as somebody who lived in a communist country and had experiences with tourists visting us that Animal did not see the full extent of it - it just doesnt work that way. He visited for a lil bit and now he thinks he knows everything. I visited Vancouver this summer, would you feel it appropriate that I make sweeping conclusions about Canada from what goes on around Granville street?
And I understand how you dont get the whole dictorship angle here either - living as you have been in a free open society your whole life.
As for being a tool, I'm not the one waxing poetic about Castro's health care and sports programs.
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As i recall and from your own words Grunz you did make a blanket statement aboot Canada from your day pass trip to Vancouver making hypocrisy your forte.
Was that the second country you've actually travelled to? Amazing that you are such a cultural and political expert for one who has never voted and has only one stamps on your passport.
I'm sure Animial will thx you for pointing out his misconception of things he actually saw and experienced for you should know better than him being the armchair expert you are.
Thrawn, obviously not the sharpest one in the shed.:aok
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Yes I did make them, how accurate was my assesment? I simply reported what I saw in my visit. I saw homeless kids burning trash on the sidewalk to stay warm, prostitutes, signs of car theft and general delapidation. Naturally this is how all of Canada is, of course. Its no different than the glowing reports animal posted about his travels..
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Originally posted by Torque
I'm sure Animial will thx you for pointing out his misconception of things he actually saw and experienced for you should know better than him being the armchair expert you are.
Well as one who has lived in setting around thousands of tourists like animal I think I know better about how open people are in a communist country.
Anyway Torque you are an idiot for so happily defending communism in cuba.
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Well I can say this my grandparents lived under Batista and things were better than they were with Castro,when they left . Contrary to what Animal said not all rich people were the ones that left Cuba after Castro came into power,and most every middle class person wanted Batista out . Many middle class families like my grandparents were and lower income families also left Cuba. You have to understand Castro lived upon the farmers was fed by them and given shelter by them and that's how his support grew. Not only that but many, many, many, people with University degrees and "rich" people wanted Castro to succeed because they simply hated Batista. Most of them wanted a democratic government which they felt Castro would bring to the country. Instead they got a Communist Far Left dictatorship. That went from bad to worse.
Some on my grandparent's extended family and friends fought against Batista with booby traps and gathering intel for Castro. I t was a very frightening time and still my mother and aunt remember vividly the sounds of planes overhead and explosions,they heard when they were very young children .
There's a whole bunch of things that were better in 1950's Cuba ,before Castro than after the Cuba missile crisis and Castro's purges after he took power in 1959. But still most people not only the poor wanted Batista out,they wanted democracy in Cuba. As you've seen in later years many more people left Cuba during the 1960's after the big exile early in the decade.
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Originally posted by Glasses
Well I can say this my grandparents lived under Batista and things were better than they were with Castro,when they left . Contrary to what Animal said not all rich people were the ones that left Cuba after Castro came into power,and most every middle class person wanted Batista out . Many middle class families like my grandparents were and lower income families also left Cuba. You have to understand Castro lived upon the farmers was fed by them and given shelter by them and that's how his support grew. Not only that but many, many, many, people with University degrees and "rich" people wanted Castro to succeed because they simply hated Batista. Most of them wanted a democratic government which they felt Castro would bring to the country. Instead they got a Communist Far Left dictatorship. That went from bad to worse.
Some on my grandparent's extended family and friends fought against Batista with booby traps and gathering intel for Castro. I t was a very frightening time and still my mother and aunt remember vividly the sounds of planes overhead and explosions,they heard when they were very young children .
There's a whole bunch of things that were better in 1950's Cuba ,before Castro than after the Cuba missile crisis and Castro's purges after he took power in 1959. But still most people not only the poor wanted Batista out,they wanted democracy in Cuba. As you've seen in later years many more people left Cuba during the 1960's after the big exile early in the decade.
LIES! Castro is a saint who is loved by his people as gentle father!!!
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News from the wonderland of happy people!
http://www.cubanet.org/cubanews.html
Read about Cuba, the land of a happy free people who are happy to openly discuss political issues with just about anyone.
http://www.ruleoflawandcuba.fsu.edu/defendants.cfm
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More lies from evil individuals, who like me grew up in a communist country - yet pampered naive westerners who lived in relative luxury and freedom their whole lives just wont accept what that means...
http://news.fiu.edu/releases/2003/11-25_armando_pina.htm
For Armando A. Piña, the road from Pinar del Rio, Cuba, to Havana is paved with memories.
The FIU psychology graduate student vividly recalls the excitement and hope associated with the three-hour car trip, which he made with his father roughly a dozen times as a child in the 1980s. Wanting to secure permission to emigrate to the United States, the Piñas left their home before the crack of dawn to ensure a good spot in a long line at a government office.
Today pursuing a Ph.D. amid great research and publishing success—an impressive nine studies will have appeared in top psychology journals by the end of the calendar year—Piña, 29, acknowledges the continuing impact of what he calls his former “double life” in Cuba.
“My parents always trained me to say, when people ask you questions, ‘I don’t know,’” Piña explains of the secretive atmosphere in which he was raised. (His father lost a job for political reasons.) Warned not to discuss religion or politics or let slip that the family had purchased food on the black market, lest a neighbor inform authorities, he quickly learned to think twice before speaking.
“I still do that,” says Piña, who often refers to published research and other sources of hard facts before responding to even casual professional queries. “I realize now I’m very cautious.”
Ironically, Piña’s early education in mistrust has taught him the importance of gaining the confidence of those he helps at FIU’s Child Anxiety and Phobia Program. A research clinic where trained doctoral students work under the direction of experienced faculty, the highly respected program develops and implements state-of the-art treatments for children whose psychosocial development is stunted by anxiety and related problems.
Remembering the pains taken by his own family to show one face while covering up a deeper reality, Piña says that he wants to provide his clients with an important service while putting them at ease during the process. “[I’m] basically trying to . . . give them the freedom to be,” he says. “They’re here inhibited by their fear, just as we were inhibited [in Cuba].”
Animal why do you think this man would tell you truth about cuba if he was still living there and you vistited?
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yet more dastardly lies about cuba!
http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/
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Pretty girls and great CIGARS what the hell else you want?
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Maybe some freedom, you know, that stuff many americans and western europeans take for granted....
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Im getting old just give me some poosy some good cigars and booze and I'm a happy man:aok
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:)
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Animal remember Col Barquin , yes the President from AMA(American Military Academy) , well Col Barqiun led a Quo against Batista before Castro's victory but it failed miserably many things went wrong in the process. Ultimately led to him being jailed and many other awful things, even purges by Batista. Then being made a point by Castro when he entered Havana.
There is something that many exiled Cubans have said about castro including Historians that Castro only took Socialism out of convinience since the Kennedy administration didn't recognize Castro's government as legit,and for good reason, so he took upon himself to find allies with the USSR ,and declared himself and his government communist.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Oh david, as forv the "low crime."
The USSR more or less "offically" had no crime and no prisons in their country.
It isn't even funny.
Grun, you are the best!
:D
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
All the communist countries are more or less the same in what they do to people in spirit - just ask some of the old communist expats here. Like i said unless you lived it you would not understand. From the outside (your perspective) it looks fine and dandy but from the inside (our perspective) its much more complicated.
I have to agree that indeed it is much more complicated, especially for people like Grunherz, who never lived in "communist" countries.
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It is idiotic to make positive statements about Cuban living conditions/ freedom of political expression/quality of medical care.
Anyone who makes such statements is in an extreme state of denial.
Poor Cuba ... they went from the frying pan (Baptista) to the fire (communism.)
Both Baptista & communism destroyed thousands of private individuals. Both were/are monsters.
However, there can be only one liberator of Cuba, and that's Cuba itself.
As a general rule of thumb, sovereign nations are free to torture, murder and exploit its citizens so long as they don't attack their neighbors (distant or nearby.) Other countries ignore them ...
Grun, like minid told you, it's impossible to find reliable statistics. However, the network is awash in anecdotal information about the repression and suffering in Cuba.
Here is a good place to start. Maybe somone here can help you.
http://www.cubainfolinks.net/
curly
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Originally posted by Boroda
I have to agree that indeed it is much more complicated, especially for people like Grunherz, who never lived in "communist" countries.
Well Yugoslavia, as you said yourself was close to an ideal communuist country and a model for the others. Yet it still was communism. Thankfully we were able to seperate ourselves from stalin and you russians otherwise we would have just as bad as you.
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Originally posted by Glasses
Animal remember Col Barquin , yes the President from AMA(American Military Academy) , well Col Barqiun led a Quo against Batista before Castro's victory but it failed miserably many things went wrong in the process. Ultimately led to him being jailed and many other awful things, even purges by Batista. Then being made a point by Castro when he entered Havana.
There is something that many exiled Cubans have said about castro including Historians that Castro only took Socialism out of convinience since the Kennedy administration didn't recognize Castro's government as legit,and for good reason, so he took upon himself to find allies with the USSR ,and declared himself and his government communist.
Pretty interesting, I never knew that. I should sit down and ask him a few questions.
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I'd like to visit Cuba someday just to check out all the 1950's American cars that they have maintained for the last 50 or so years.
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I think the embargo is wrong and unproductive and yes I would like to visit cuba too as one of the last relics of the cold war.
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Animal, I think what Grunherz is incapable of understanding is how "poor" people live in the "wealthy democratic capitalist" countries. That is understandable, since I'd say pretty much 100% of the people that post on the board are solidly "middle-class", if not upper-class.
Grunherz, having ANY health care is an improvement over no health care. Having ANY education is an improvement over no education. Having ANY job is an improvement over not having a job.
Go visit Appalachia and come back and tell us how wonderful that "free, capitalist, democratic" society is.
I also found your comments about the police fascinating. You described L.A. pretty well.
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I actually spoke with a Cuban Exile yesterday. He said the people aren't happy in cuba, that is just a front that everyone puts on. He was forced to leave Cuba 3 years ago, forced to leave his wife, friends and relatives.....all because he voiced political views that go against the Castro regime.
He did say that one day he wants to go back to Cuba.....when Castro is gone.
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I know full well what its like to be poor both in Yogoslavia and to some extent our first few years here in the USA. I grew up in a house made of stone and we cooked meals on a wood burning stove, there was no phone ion the house, the roof was old and practically caving in from ww2 shell damage (***** italians) and wore handme downs clothes, it was difficult buying shoes for school. So why do you arrogantly assume I'm rich all my life? Is it because I'm a business student? Maybe I had the opportunity to see the difference between capitalism and communism and I actually value it. You just seem to take this prosparity for granted as some sort of entitlement and them perhaps out of base greed just whine for socialism because you dont think the system gave you what you desrve. I apologize Urchin if I'm wrong and I'm sorry if what I just said offends you but frankly thats hoe you come across at times. Poor can happend everywhere no matter what the economic system - the difference is how much opporttunity you have to improve your situation, and tens of millions of immigrants risking life and limb over the last century probably were not wrong in coming to America just for that opportunity to have a chance to better their lives. And if you thinkk some form of magic government imposed socialism will eradicate poverty then you are plain wrong, it never has and it never will. With you and those like you still clamoring for socialist fantasies I mus ask, have millions and millions given up their lives to this communist nightmare in vain? Have we as people learned nothing from a centuy of unprecedented opression and murder at the hands of socialist dream panderers and saviors? WAKE UP FROM YOOR DREAM URCHIN, BEFORE IT BECOMES A NIGHTMARE!
I actually spoke with a Cuban Exile yesterday. He said the people aren't happy in cuba, that is just a front that everyone puts on. He was forced to leave Cuba 3 years ago, forced to leave his wife, friends and relatives.....all because he voiced political views that go against the Castro regime.
And this is something the Castro's Cuba buttlicking apologists from wealthy free western nations will never understand about communist dictatorships. There is simply an incredible amount of pressure to echo the government view of things, people get severly punished for speaking out because the government has near total control of employment, education, health even food distribution and they are not afraid to cut you off from these gifts if you cross them...
BTW If any of you are offended by my calling you a Castro's cuba buttlicking apologist then please reconsider your praising of this facade of health care and happyness or parroting back propaganda of 100% literacy, in doing so you are no different than the naive misgiuded dreamers who came back singing praises of stalins russia during the 1930s while tens of millions were starving and dying in gulags or collective farms....
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Originally posted by Animal
While we are on the subject, I have a question. How many people where killed in the Dominican Republic by Trujillo and his US backed government before he was assasinated?
As for Cuba, there have been quite a few, but like MiniD said, its hard to know. Even if you found good data, you'd probably be disapointed. There have been quite a few executions, but most people in Cuba are suprisingly loyal to Fidel, as retarded as that may seem. And the ones who are not, do their best to leave the place in their not so luxurious yatchs.
By the way, Cuba is not as ****ed up as you'd believe. If you dont believe me, take a visit. But that is hard now, as the US government is making it incredibly hard now for students to go to Cuba.
Cuba is a simple place full of simple people. No one is starving, but no one has what we would consider material luxuries. Not even Fidel himself, except that he gets food prepared any time he wants.
The the old school looks of the place reflect its senile leader. For a good insight on present Cuba, watch Oliver's Stone recent documentary "El Comandante". Its interesting, and Fidel is surprisingly open to Oliver.
He does say a blatant lie in one part, when he claims no one has been tortured by his party.
Castro should be made to pay for what he did to the arts in Cuba in 1968. A "Declaration of Rules of the Congress of Writers and Artists" (Declaracion of Principios del Congreso de Escritores y Artistas) was proposed which said each writer had the obligation and responsibility to contribute to the revolucionary process by means of their work. To be used as a weapon to help the Revolution. Soon after, Haydee Santamaria, director of the editorial press Casa de las Americas, suggested that those writers who did not follow the revolucionary line should not receive prizes. One year later, Nicolas Guillen, president of UNEAC (Union Nacional de Escritores y Artistas de Cuba), declared that writers and artists had the same responsibilities as the army - defend the nation- and all who did not do it should be severely punished.*
Palls, Terry L. "El caracter del teatro cubano contemporaneo",
Latin American Theatre Review , 1980: 13, ii, supp. pag. 54
Evidently this did not go over very well with serious writers and artists, so it is my deduction they simply quit doing art (theater), rather than be told what to do, or punished for not glorifying the Revolution. These include authors of the theater of the absurd, principally Anton Arrufat, Nicholas Dorr and Jose Triana.
In 1980, the main artistic expression in Cuba consisted of a group (Grupo Teatral Escambray), established in 1968 under the direction of Sergio Corrieri. The productions were public (in the street) and the public was invited to participate and give advice, what to add on or what to change. These was a travelling company about the countryside. Other groups in this line are La Yara, Grupo Teatrova, Grupo Estudio, Grupo Yarabey (Camaguey).*
Woodyard, George W. "Perspectives on Cuban Theatre", Revista/Review Americana , 9(1979): pp. 48-49
I have never been to Cuba. My Dad made a port of call to Havana in the early 30s, on his way to or from Argentina. He could speak Spanish fairly well, having attended high school in New Mexico. He also got along pretty well with the Cubans and South Americans. Years later, after Castro was in power, he told me Castro is admired by Spanish speaking peoples mainly because of his defiance toward Gringos. There is a loyalty for Castro that we as gringos don't understand.
Animal, tu vives in Puerto Rico. Que is el sentimiento en cuanto a gringos alli?:)
Les
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Originally posted by Leslie
(info)
Animal, tu vives in Puerto Rico. Que is el sentimiento en cuanto a gringos alli?:)
Les
Nice info, thanks. I did not know the extent in which comunist ideals damaged culture in Cuba. I will look more into it. It does make sense, in the time I spent there, there was not much to see or read when it came to imagery or literary works of art that did not deal with the revolution itself.
In Cuba, la revolución is the center of the universe.
Aqui en Puerto Rico no hay un sentimiento prevalente en cuanto a los gringos. Alguna gente los adora como si fueran superiores, algunos los odian como si fueran opresores, otros, como yo, simplemente los vemos como personas.
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Originally posted by Animal
Nice info, thanks. I did not know the extent in which comunist ideals damaged culture in Cuba. I will look more into it. It does make sense, in the time I spent there, there was not much to see or read when it came to imagery or literary works of art that did not deal with the revolution itself.
In Cuba, la revolución is the center of the universe.
absolutely animal, this is another thing people are forced to give up under communism. Any cultural activity that contradicts the communist ideals is supressed and banned. In fact if yiu study these communist countries a bit you will notice that they have similar art and approved literature. Its downright spooky!
WTG for noting it! I think you are well on your way to seeing how inhuman and fake the whole place is because of the communism.
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Find the whole US v Cuba/Castro thing very amusing. Especially when Bush bought it up again recently. Maybe they have WMD too?
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
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GWB brought it up because many Floridians believe it to be important.
Perhaps you may have heard the the Florida election was pretty close last time?
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Originally posted by Gixer
Find the whole US v Cuba/Castro thing very amusing. Especially when Bush bought it up again recently. Maybe they have WMD too?
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
I wouldn't find it amusing no matter who brought it up.:D
Les
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
I'd like to visit Cuba someday just to check out all the 1950's American cars that they have maintained for the last 50 or so years.
Me too! It's too bad they have re-engined many of them with Russian diesels.:eek: I think '54 Chevy is the second most common car there, after Lada.
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BTW If any of you are offended by my calling you a Castro's cuba buttlicking apologist
Not offended at all, do you want to know why? i dont take anything you say seriously....