Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: brady on November 26, 2003, 01:10:31 PM
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This Friday were going to run the BoF set up on ASW's France Map:
Allies:
P40B(French)
Boston(French)
Huricane I
Spit I
C47
The M's
Panzer IV
Germans:
109E-4
110C-4
JU-87
JU-88
C47
The M's
Panzer IV
Spitfires will be limited to rear bases to represent the fact that they were not actualy deployed to France, but did fly sorties out of England over The low countries and France, nothing is perked.
Seting's:
Ack.7
Ack, hanger's and field objects are 30min downtime.
The rest are CT norm's.
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woohoo.
early war!
P-40s - it's what for dinner!
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Was the Spit I used much in the Battle of France? I was of the mind the Spitfire were held in reserve in Britain, and the Air Ministry didnt want to lose them in France , because they knew they'd need them when france fell. If so you might want to limit them to the UK bases, or just a couple of Allied bases.
The Hurri, and P-40B , should be ample for this setup. The P-40B is a lot more leathel, than the P-36 , or Curtis Hawk, which I assume it's there to represent.. Not knocking your set up Brady , just asking .
OOOPPPSSS , I see you adressed that , I should have read all of your post
I still think we could get along fine if ya left it out.:)
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Ya the P40b is a kinda generic stand in for a French Plane, falling between a MS 406 and a D.520 preformance wise, it is less lethal in terms of firpower to a Bloch 152 and a D. 520 and more so than say the Hawk so all in all it is about the middle of the raod.
Withought the Spit the set up would be to much in the Germans favor preformance wise so the spit is their to represent the Historical aspect of it doing some sorties over the contenet ( though rare) and to help balance out the set up, it will be fairly rarely sean unless the front roles up to a base whear it is at. Those bases will be listed in the MOTD.
(http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/112319/0.jpg)
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I like this setup:D
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Why not disable formations?
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Nuff said brady. Thanks I'm looking forward to flying this one.
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BITE YOUR FACE WARLOC! :D
Formations Forever!
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lol:)
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Originally posted by Squire
Why not disable formations?
:mad: Grrr
:D
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Dont make me come over there Jester....:)
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The 110 should rule the skies, just like it did in the BoF.
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the Bf 110C-4b is actually a variant with the DB601N engs. Its late for BoF and has a performance gain over it historic variant. It also carries 2 250kg bombs.
At 12k the boston and 110 should be close in speed. IMO the ju88 should not be there at all. Its a ju88a4 and its fast.
The Axis have a decent bomb load with the ju87 (which is a d3 and can carry the 1800kg bomb) and the 110C-4b(2 x 250kg).
Get rid of formations and the boston would be one helluva of fighter :p
Do what I say Brady or I will tell HT on you!!!!:mad:
:D
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yeah, lose the ju88's/bostons... 110 and stuka should be sufficient for this setup... and would refelct the tactical nature of this battle with germans on offensive and french on defensive...
i'd also suggest losing the panzers and using the m8 to represent what was basically the light armor germans used in their blitzkreig... if some tank must be used, i'd suggest the lvt4...
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This setup will not be easy for allies - Hurri 1 and P-40b loosed in comparison to 109E and Spit I from rear bases......
Looks like it will not be ballanced - I'd suggest to enable Spit 1 anywere even it looses in comaprison with 109E it still better then Hurri 1
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I like the set up. We will see how it plays out.
My squad will spend some time in the CT this week
Being a GERMAN squad the like the 190's but I think I can get them to fly in here.
I have been spending some time in here and really enjoying the fights. Except ofcourse for the alt monkey SKAT duo :) glad they won't have that P-51 anymore.
See you all up
KCDitto
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Well I suggested getting rid of the formations so any bombing mission with Ju88s and Bostons will be with a single a/c, thereby countering (to some extent) the uberness of both types for a 1940 setup.
I see nothing bad about single Ju88s and single Bostons? Give the 109E and the Hurricane a chance.
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Well may I suggest just running this map till say..Monday ?
that would represent how long the fediddlein French lasted anyways
BTW , I'd like to run a Sales ad :
French Rifles for Sale ! Cheap !
Never been fired , only dropped once :rofl
Bolt45
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IMO, the setups that provide bombers and heavy twins that outperform (mostly with respect to top speed) the available fighter set don't really promote good fighter action.
I could easily do without these nonsensical additions.
IMO.
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The 110s will be running amuck.
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i'd take a spit over the hurri any day - it has the ability to run down luftrunners... to an extent.
and that's exactly what's gonn ahappen with this setup.. lw will use it's speed advantage.
then again this is almost a BoB setup, just spits not as readily available.
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Well Toadster ..... if I remember correctly in 1939 and 40 the heavy twins such as the Me-110, JU 88 & Boston pretty much DID outrun and outclass the single engine fighters of the day.
The JU 88 was one of the fastest bombers ever seen at that itme and during the BOF the Germans were pretty much convinced it couldn't be intercepted. (The few that took part). Only during the BOB did it's myth really get cracked by the RAF.
Against the French Types the 110 did very well also. Boston is a bit racy for the French types, be nice if we could elimanate the nose guns so it had to be used as a Bomber instead of a "Dweeb-Fighter." Maybe one day.....
As for the German types dominateing - the last time this was run seems I remember (From German point of view) that all the fights turned into low turning "Furballs" rather quickly where the Hurri and the 50cals of the P-40B quickly gained the edge.
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hooray
early eto, my favorite, woot woot woot!
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Few problems with planeset - Boston in non interseptable.
Ju88 I think too......
Nothing catchs it... like Ar234 at MA - but in MA you have 262
Allied really outclassed - huri with its 303 cal and without neg G ...... it just like a toye for 110 and 109 - I personally do not like Hurri at all but it is really outclassed plane.
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I like the no boston no ju88 and use the lvt with 75mm and the m8 as the tanks ideas. But I am looking forward to this map.
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I stay away from the M8/LVT idea because they are extreamly easy to kill from the air, and the Germans in this set up have it prety good already. If we went this route then the Germans would have even better since the 20MM MG FF can easly kill any open toped GV in AH. Both Sides have planes that can easly Kill Panzer's so realy in this light it is fairly well balanced. Using the Panzer simply playes better, the LVT also has that anoying gun bug.
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early war tanks *were* extremely easy to kill from the air.
none of the allied fighters can carry ord. that leaves the boston in a role it wasn't designed for. and the m16's are capable of taking care of themselves and any gv's they're escorting in this setup.
for once brady, think outside of your obession with the boston-box.
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Well,
I know I am a new guy in here, but the hostility towards BRADY is very open.
So far in the 3 maps I have played in, the CT seems evenly matched. So if the goal of the CT is good fights with limited #s, then I think the goal is met on a regular basis. The planes don't make the difference, it is the # of players on each side.
I also have seen many playes I killed on on sortie and then flying side by side with them the next because # were one sided.
On the other hand, I think some of the points that the players have made as to set up sound good to me. So as a staff member I think you should consider some of these proposals for the next time a SET is going to be up. I don't know hao hard it is or what time it takes to make changes to a SET, but if 20 guys agree on somthing, I think maybe you could make a change.
KCDitto
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Well, Jester-er,
My comment is not solely directed at this particular set-up.
It's an overall comment; I could have made the same point about the early PAC set-ups that include a Ki-67 Peggy with a basic fighter set of A6M2's and F4F's. It's just unreconcilable and, to me, totally nonsensical.
As to the Battle of France, yes, the 110 did pretty well against essentially unprepared, suprised and ill-equipped adversaries starting on 10 May 1940.
Amazing how fast things changed in the Battle of Britain; the story was quite a bit different just three months later on 10 July 1940, wasn't it?
When suprise was not a factor, when preparations had been made, the description of 110's in combat almost always include the words "massacred" and "slaughtered".
Funny the Luftwaffe had to detail 109's to escort the dreaded 110's against the Hurricanes isn't it?
There's also the British combat reports:
The opening phase of the Battle consisted of German attacks on shipping by day, usually in the Channel, although some convoy raids occurred off Clacton. Attacks were also made on naval bases. By night much of the German activity consisted of mine laying in various estuaries, however at this stage in the war Britain possesed no effective night defence against aircraft.
The first day of this phase was notable for the way that Me110’s when attacked by Hurricanes formed themselves into a defensive circle, therefore being unable to bring their heavy nose armament to bear, and indicating they required as much escorting as the bombers.
Nonetheless, my point remains that I'd rather do without some planes rather than have nonsensical substitutions made for ones we do not have modeled. In ANY time frame or set-up.
YMMV.
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The 110 was misused in the BoB. It was tied to close escort. Given more operational freedom it should have done quite well. Kinda like you would get in an open arena. Maj. Eduard Tratt had 38 kills flying the 110, but that’s here nor there. The 110 in AH wasn’t the 110 in the BoF and was even rare for the BoB.
It's "too good" for this set up. The ju88 is a ju88a4 it was late for even the BoB.
The Boston is the fastest of the twin eng bombers in ah.
Dropping the boston/ju88 and 110 means an end to jabo. Big deal, but some folks like that. With no jabo then no gvs.
No jabo, no gvs = no base capture.......
Wait a minute that sounds like the perfect arena :p
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Shane Tanks were Not as easly destroyed from the Air in BoF as you might think, for the most part they had the same top armor as many of the later war tanks did (thickness wise)and as we all know in AH Strafing tanks dead is well over done and for the most part compleatly unrealistic, and in this time frame as almost compleatly imposable as any other.
Some Panzer II models had 14.5mm top plate.
Panzer 38(t) E & F had 15mm turet top plate
Panzer IIIF Hull top16mm, Turet top 12mm, Superstructure top 17mm.
Panzer IVH Turet top 15mm, Superstructure 12mm, Hull 10mm.
Suma: Hull top 20mm, 28-30mm Turet top.
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Again, my comment is not directed solely towards this set-up.
However, the idea that the 110 was highly competitive against BoB single-seat fighters isn't usually touted in the documentation/history of that time.
And again, you have the LW commanders deciding to use 109's to escort the dreaded uber 110's.
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The Bf110 was conceived as a long range escort fighter equally able to undertake defensive or offensive tasks. This high-performance, heavily-armed fighter first entered service in 1939 and was able to take part in the Polish campaign where it performed well.
The heavy long range fighter concept was not really put to the test during the opening months of the war but events in the Battle of Britain proved it to be a mistake. Although a highly effective fighter the Messerschmitt Bf 110 was misused as an escort fighter on daylight bomber missions which resulted in huge losses. Operating well below its top speed it proved unable to fight on equal terms with the more agile British single seat Hurricane and Spitfire fighters.
That's from the RAF museum website. Are they liars?
The 110 was ordered to fly close escort. This meant that for the most part it was slower and lower then the attackers. From this position the more maneuverable hurris and spits had all the advantage.
The 109s "escorting" the 110s took position in front to the flanks and rear just like they would when 109s were tasked with close escort. Even the 109s when ordered to stay with the bombers got mauled for the same reason as the 110s.
I was axis co the AH BoB scenario and the 110s had a higher k/d then any other fighter. They weren't locked to escort and were able to operate from it's strength.
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Point of view, I suppose.
The heavy long range fighter concept was not really put to the test during the opening months of the war but events in the Battle of Britain proved it to be a mistake.
It was so bloody good that every nation scrambled to build and employ a heavy twin fighter after they saw what it could do.