Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: beet1e on November 27, 2003, 01:26:13 AM
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Last week we had the pleasure of welcoming Mr. President to Britain. GWB was accommodated at Buckingham Palace, the first US president to have stayed there since Woodrow Wilson about 90 years ago. I hope our anti-war demonstrators weren't too impolite. We have strong links with America and a special relationship, so it was a time to consider the white piece of paper and not the black dot, were one to exist.
Security was intense, and involved 5000 of our own police in an operation costing £5m or about $8m.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/11/18/nbush18.xml About 250 American security agents, many armed, will also be on duty. They have not been granted diplomatic immunity and will be subject to the British legal system if they open fire.
But the increased security for GWB came at a price for Londoners. Street muggings and robberies increased by 20% in this period because of the 5000 police being drafted away from their normal duties. Story: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2003%2F11%2F26%2Fnrob26.xml&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=74252
I suppose this was to be expected, and now that those police have resumed normal duties, muggings and robberies have fallen to "normal" levels. I believe that if we had MORE police, the incidence of street robbery could be driven down still further. I think this is a better and more effective way of tackling street crime than some alternatives that are sometimes suggested. ;)
But that would cost money, and it must be remembered that we have a government which squanders £638m on a white elephant like the Millennium Dome, and then can't find the money for extra police. :rolleyes: And builds idiotic, infrequently used bus lanes on the motorway between Heathrow Airport and London. :mad:
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Originally posted by beet1e [ Street muggings and robberies increased by 20% in this period because of the 5000 police being drafted away from their normal duties. Story:
If only the citizens had been allowed to have guns, maybe the tragic increase in muggings could have been avoided.
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hmmm Nuke beat me to it.
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Of all the Presidents in the last 90 years to have resided in the White House, they choose this one. lol It's enough to make yer cry.
Ever read Closing Time by Joseph Heller? It's the sequel to Catch-22. Interesting parallels.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Of all the Presidents in the last 90 years to have resided in the White House, they choose this one. lol It's enough to make yer cry.
Ever read Closing Time by Joseph Heller? It's the sequel to Catch-22. Interesting parallels.
Ahhh the cost off taking the heat of charlie possible indiscretions
Originally posted by NUKE
If only the citizens had been allowed to have guns, maybe the tragic increase in muggings could have been avoided.
true...very true...
of course all that good news would've been tempered by all the extra shootings and murders... :p
Tronsky
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I'm re-reading Alfred Burne's "The Crecy War". What the hell europe used to be a rocking fun place, what the devil happened to you people?
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Originally posted by -tronski-
of course all that good news would've been tempered by all the extra shootings and murders... :p
If that were to occur, the mayor of London could take on this attitude:
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country," -- Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, DC.
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gee trotsky.... muggings and street robberies are soooooo non violent eh? besides... you have very little faith in our british friends... whenever they are allowed to be armed the murder rate does not go up... nor... does it go down during times of bans... was a great theory tho... to bad about all the facts getting in the way.
bet crime and murder are waaaay down in your country since the women took your guns away huh?
lazs
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Even if guns were allowed in the UK it is HIGHLY unlikely they would be allowed to be carried and or fired within London's city limits....much like New York, say.
So, guns would have done NOTHING to prevent the increase in crime that Beet1e speaks about...but typically the Americans immediately jump to this conclusion.
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curval... I believe we are talking about concealed carry. Every state and city in the U.S. allows some form of concealed carry. In the U.S. off duty police are required to carry firearms in most police forces.
lazs
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The way I see it, Brits have come to accept muggings as part of their lives. Is that better than being able to defend yourself?
I can hear the rebut now... "yeah, but you Americans accept murder as part of your lives!" True... but usually it's one bad guy killing another bad guy over something neither should have been doing in the first place. More than that, they are usually illegally carrying guns, so all the gun laws in the world wouldn't have stopped them anyway.
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Originally posted by lazs2
curval... I believe we are talking about concealed carry. Every state and city in the U.S. allows some form of concealed carry. In the U.S. off duty police are required to carry firearms in most police forces.
lazs
Okay...but if you fire a weapon in New York City (even in self defense)...what happens?
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You guys are not for real ? youre turning this into a gun debate lol :D
For me you guys can carry guns or whatever kind of arms you need. As long as you stay in your own country.
Just let the countries with guncontrol laws alone.
We seems to do fine without them.
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The way I see it, Brits have come to accept muggings as part of their lives.
You mean I've accepted getting mugged in the same way I've accepted getting rained on occasionally? Pur-leaze. Yeah, I get mugged all the time. Bummer, but what can you do?
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Originally posted by -tronski-
Ahhh the cost off taking the heat of charlie possible indiscretions
true...very true...
of course all that good news would've been tempered by all the extra shootings and murders... :p
Tronsky
Yeah, the muggers would have been shot, tragically increasing the gun related deaths in the UK . :)
Criminals prefer unarmed victims
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And the Queens pelicans got a trauma because of bush!
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Not much of a point in arguing with dowding on this one lazs. Eventually he'll realise that he just suggested putting more guns on the street reduces the crime rate.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Dowding
Of all the Presidents in the last 90 years to have resided in the White House, they choose this one. lol It's enough to make yer cry.
... and of all (sic) the prime ministers Britain could've had, Brits chose this one. I'm crying as my bank account is depleted due to excessive taxation, my life is made more complicated due to micro-[mis]management of people's lives, and my journey times are doubled (dead time), due to the destruction of the transport system ...
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But the increased security for GWB came at a price for Londoners. Street muggings and robberies increased by 20% in this period because of the 5000 police being drafted away from their normal duties. Story: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...requestid=74252
I suppose this was to be expected, and now that those police have resumed normal duties, muggings and robberies have fallen to "normal" levels. I believe that if we had MORE police, the incidence of street robbery could be driven down still further. I think this is a better and more effective way of tackling street crime than some alternatives that are sometimes suggested.
Oh brilliant one... please point to the sarcasm here? I see some taunting in the last sentance... but the sarcasm escapes me.
MiniD
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although the cost wasn't near as bad as it was over their, our city was out a good sized chunk of cash thanks to bush's last visit.
not including the costs to the nation, or ecconomic costs from traffic problems just the extra police for his protection and all of the problems his visit brings as he goes around trying to drum up suport for other republicans who are running for offices in the area.
Portland sent a bill to the campaign offices of those who he was raising money for. they didn't pay though.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Oh brilliant one... please point to the sarcasm here? I see some taunting in the last sentance... but the sarcasm escapes me.
MiniD
No offense, but are you actually talking about Dowding's "sarcasm" because you quoted Beetle here.
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I'd be curious what would happen if it became law that all of the United Kingdom's citizenry would have to concealed carry handguns.
What would likely happen if they were attending a football (soccer) match say Ireland's national team vs England's national team. A few beers here and there, one team not doing so well.....
1) Would they actually be civil to each other or....
2) Would a lot of people be dying from a rolling fire fight.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
No offense, but are you actually talking about Dowding's "sarcasm" because you quoted Beetle here.
DOH! All those guys with bad teeth look the same to me.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Dowding
You mean I've accepted getting mugged in the same way I've accepted getting rained on occasionally? Pur-leaze. Yeah, I get mugged all the time. Bummer, but what can you do?
I'll be you've been mugged as often as I've been murdered.
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LOL it gets funnier.
Recession - DETH TO AMREEKA DETH TO GREAT SHAITAN BOOSH!
Warm Summer and idiot Frogs die - DETH TO AMREEKA DETH TO GREAT SHAITAN BOOSH!
Small crime spike in London - DETH TO AMREEKA DETH TO GREAT SHAITAN BOOSH!
What are you guys going to blame on him next? Solar flares? Aging?
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"...No offense, but are you actually talking about Dowding's "sarcasm" because you quoted Beetle here.".
Nahhhh.....I'm sure he's too brilliant to have made a silly mistake like that.
yowser
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
LOL it gets funnier.
Recession - DETH TO AMREEKA DETH TO GREAT SHAITAN BOOSH!
Warm Summer and idiot Frogs die - DETH TO AMREEKA DETH TO GREAT SHAITAN BOOSH!
Small crime spike in London - DETH TO AMREEKA DETH TO GREAT SHAITAN BOOSH!
What are you guys going to blame on him next? Solar flares? Aging?
ROFL:rofl :aok
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
LOL it gets funnier.
Recession - DETH TO AMREEKA DETH TO GREAT SHAITAN BOOSH!
Warm Summer and idiot Frogs die - DETH TO AMREEKA DETH TO GREAT SHAITAN BOOSH!
Small crime spike in London - DETH TO AMREEKA DETH TO GREAT SHAITAN BOOSH!
What are you guys going to blame on him next? Solar flares? Aging?
Premature aging for sure. I mean has any single person since Maggie or Reagan (God bless them both) ever had the lefty euros' panties twisted up in a bunch as Bush....
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LMAO what a comment. If the citizens had guns and the crims had guns there would of been same amount of muggings plus alot of deaths.
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
Originally posted by NUKE
If only the citizens had been allowed to have guns, maybe the tragic increase in muggings could have been avoided.
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Originally posted by Gixer
LMAO what a comment. If the citizens had guns and the crims had guns there would of been same amount of muggings plus alot of deaths.
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
Well, in the real world there is no crime in america because of all the guns, which prevents crime when everyone is armed ;)
Tronsky
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Do at least try and keep up MiniD.
Kieren - I'm not the guy making claims about what the population of another country has accepted as being the 'norm'. Point out where I said you guys had accepted being murdered and I will stand corrected. Cheers.
Tomato - I'm no fan of Blair's and have never voted for him, so I'm not exactly sure of the point of your post.
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Try not to be so literal. You guys accept people will be mugged. You just... accept it.
Many of you Brits think we walk around in constant fear of being murdered. You guys always have some smartass comment every time someone is murdered with a gun in America. It's especially funny to many of you when it happens in Texas. It's all good, think what you like.
Bearing in mind I wasn't specifically talking to you when I made the comment, don't you think it is amusing that, on the single day the president draws bobbies away from their posts, muggings rose 20%? From the oh-so-civilized people of the Great Island Nation? That suggests a criminal element just waiting for the opportunity.
Now that makes me wonder... since most gun crime in America is done by, of course, criminals, and then with unregistered handguns, what's to stop Brits from getting guns? Because it is against the law? Pfft. Mugging is against the law, too. No, it must be because a mugger knows if he is caught mugging someone without using a gun he'll probably walk. Using a gun would give him a prison sentence. That sounds good, but in reality it is only equalibrium. The relatively low-risk easy pickings make getting a black market gun unnecessary. But... for that equalibrium to exist, you have to have fields of harmless victims to harvest.
If a guy breaks into your house, you guys cannot legally use force to protect yourselves, right? I mean, if you DID have a gun, and you DID shoot the guy, you'd be up on murder charges, right?
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If a guy breaks into your house, you guys cannot legally use force to protect yourselves, right? I mean, if you DID have a gun, and you DID shoot the guy, you'd be up on murder charges, right?
Wrong.
Broadly speaking, Self Defence is a perfectly acceptable defence to charges of crime against the person provided that a reasonable amount of force is used.
A 'reasonable amount of force' is a sufficient amount of force to respond to the perceived threat.
Ravs
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Would blowing two 12-gauge holes into someone's chest be considered "a reasonable amount of force"? Would I have to prove the guy was threatening me, or would the fact he's in my house be enough?
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You would have to prove that he was threatening you.
If you pointed the gun at him and told him to freeze and he ignored your command and ran towards you and you fired, then I think you could make a reasonable case of self defence.
If he started running away then you couldn't plead self defence.
Ravs
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Here is more on the subject:
Common Law:- Self Defence (private Defence)
Statue Law:- Criminal Law Act 1967 sec 3 (1)
Human Rights Act 1998 Article 2 (HRA 98)
Force may be used to:-
Defend Oneself
Defend Another
Defend Property
Make an arrest
Prevent a crime
Objective View:- Based on the following.
Reasonable:- (Criminal Law Act 1967 sec 3 (1))
Honestly held belief at the time?
Would another reasonable person have held the same belief?
Would another reasonable person have used that level of force in that situation?
Necessary:- (Defence of Necessity)
Was the force used absolutely necessary? (HRA 98 Article 2 )
Was force stopped when no longer necessary?(HRA 98 Article 2/3 )
Was there another means available?
Did you try to use those means first?
Proportionate:-
Was the force used proportionate to the wrong (evil) it was stopping (avoiding)?
Relative strengths of the parties involved, numbers?
Training and experience, sex and age and weapons used?
Thin Skin Rule:- You take the other person as you find them.
Pre-Emptive Strike:-
There is a good deal of case Law covering self defence , including circumstances which may justify a pre-emptive strike where there is an honestly held belief of imminent danger and there is no alternative.
The action taken MUST be justifiable in the circumstances.
ASSAULT:-Defined by common Law and the criminal justice Act 1988
Assault:- The placing of a person in fear that unlawful force will be used against them
Battery:- the placing of hands/ application of force to another.
Offensive Weapons:-
Anything designed, adapted, intended or modified to cause injury to another.
It is an offence to have an offensive weapon away from your abode with no lawful excuse.
The onus lies on you to prove your innocence.
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Originally posted by NUKE
If only the citizens had been allowed to have guns, maybe the tragic increase in muggings could have been avoided.
Criminals usually counters this by getting a piece for themselves too.
It's easier to cause harm with a gun than a knife or fist..
knives and fists usually doesnt reach target from a distance and fists are less likely to penetrate internal organs.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
LOL it gets funnier.
Recession - DETH TO AMREEKA DETH TO GREAT SHAITAN BOOSH!
Warm Summer and idiot Frogs die - DETH TO AMREEKA DETH TO GREAT SHAITAN BOOSH!
Small crime spike in London - DETH TO AMREEKA DETH TO GREAT SHAITAN BOOSH!
What are you guys going to blame on him next? Solar flares? Aging?
It's amusing to me....it's no wonder the left is out of power....their pathetically driven to whine....no solutions or anything positive offered.
If it were not for Bush, they would have nothing to say at all....accountability is not their bag.
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I think it's great that so many countries are confiscating their citizen's weaponry. When the USA makes it big move for world domination it'll go just that much easier. :aok
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even tho all the stats prove you guys wrong... I guess what you "feel" will happen is the real truth... you must be right... all the english speaking countries except America are filled with barbarians who can not be trusted with the means to defend themselves else they will go crazy after a few beers or a fender bender and the streets will run with blood and echo with gunfire...
myself... I just think it is a few wussy liberals from those countries spouting off here because like all liberals.... they hate and mistrust their fellow man whilst proclaiming a great love of humanity.
lazs
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Bearing in mind I wasn't specifically talking to you when I made the comment, don't you think it is amusing that, on the single day the president draws bobbies away from their posts, muggings rose 20%? From the oh-so-civilized people of the Great Island Nation? That suggests a criminal element just waiting for the opportunity.
Yes Britain has a criminal element, every bit as much as America. It's lazs and other gun advocates who suggest otherwise. Britain actually has higher crime rates than America.
Now that makes me wonder... since most gun crime in America is done by, of course, criminals, and then with unregistered handguns, what's to stop Brits from getting guns?
The fact that before getting a criminal record, they can't go out and buy one from a shop. Even after getting a criminal record, they can't buy one from a gun show, or a classified ad, or get a friend to buy one for them, or steal one in a house break-in, or buy one from a fence who has bought one from a robber who stole it in a house break-in. They can't go to Tesco to buy ammo either.
A US department of Justice reports notes that around 300,000 guns are stolen each year in America. (53% of them handguns)
Of State prison inmates, 10% stole the gun they were caught with themselves, 14% bought it from a shop or gun show, 40% got one from family or friends, 40% got it from a fence or other illegal source.
Because it is against the law?
No, criminals break laws, otherwise they wouldn't be criminals.
No, it must be because a mugger knows if he is caught mugging someone without using a gun he'll probably walk.
90% of people convicted of robbery in the UK recieve a custodial sentence.
The sentencing guidelines up to this summer were:
robbery with violence in the home: 10 to 12 years if pleading guilty, higher for a not guilty plea or as especialy violent act.
Street robbery or mugging: 18 months to 3 years if pleading guilty, and no violence or weapon used, 2 - 4 years if pleading not guilty, robberies involving a weapon, 3 to 6 years.
There is a note that they would like to see lower guidelines for "bag snatching" type crimes, where no violence or threat of violence is used.
For those under 17, community service is the most common punishment, unless there is much violence involved. Bear in mind, though, that if serious injuries are caused, then they may be convicted of more serious offences, such as attempted murder.
The relatively low-risk easy pickings make getting a black market gun unnecessary.
There's certainly some truth in that. Criminals who think they are going to face an armed victim are going to want a gun themselves. Of course, that merely ratchets up the level of violence. Just because the victim is armed doesn't mean he's going to win any fight with a criminal. The victim will usually be unsuspecting until the offence occurs, the criminal will of course initiate the encounter.
If a guy breaks into your house, you guys cannot legally use force to protect yourselves, right? I mean, if you DID have a gun, and you DID shoot the guy, you'd be up on murder charges, right?
You can use any level of force to protect yourself, your family, or any other person around.
You can also use any level of force required to restrain a criminal, or stop him stealing or damaging your property. You cannot punish a criminal yourself, or shoot someone running away, even if he's got your car radio.
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It is funny to see how this for/against guncontrol thingy is moving on :)
in Norway we have about 4.5 mill inhabitants and 60 % of those have guns (shotguns/rifles) for hunting.
we have the last 10 years had about 120 (bit more than 12 a year) deaths by sombody beeing killed by guns.
And thats pretty good, I think that is primary because of the type of guns we have, they are to heavy or ugly and clumsy to bring with you consealed and is mostly used in affect.
With a handgun/pistol it changes drasticly, and really what you need that for ? yeah i hear protection, but heck at home you have youre shotgun/rifle and that should be enough for protection.
Do you americans really need handguns on the streets or in the car ? Its plain hysteria for me to even think having a consealed handgun with me around otw work/school or on the holiday.
Just plain sick :(
or maybe its what we learnt 1000 years ago about violence, after the viking age, dont know but there must be somthing, or maybe we miss somthing in our lifes that dont give us the need for a handgun ?
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Thanks for the response, Nashwan, Ravells. I honestly didn't know the answers to my questions, not trying to lead you at all. It does seem I've more-or-less sized it up correctly in most regards. "Reasonable force" is going to have to be interpreted by someone, and it isn't the sort of checklist I want to have to run through if someone is in my house in the middle of the night threatening me and my own. It really does boil down to what our respective societies deem is an acceptable balance between violence and self-defense, or more appropriately, where the line is between the government and the individual WRT criminals. America emphasizes the individual's right to protect their own rights, the UK emphasizes the need to keep social order.
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lol Kieren
"You Brits..." Nice way to generalise and satisfy some bizarre need to vent.
You guys always have some smartass comment every time someone is murdered with a gun in America.
lol x2 You have read the posts from the likes of lazs, surely? Are you blind? Your compatriots are far more vocal on this board when it comes to pointing the finger and s******ing.
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This may come as a shock, but I am not trying to wind you up, Dowding.
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It seems I should have used 'snickering', if I didn't want to get filtered.
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Originally posted by airguard
Do you americans really need handguns on the streets or in the car ? Its plain hysteria for me to even think having a consealed handgun with me around otw work/school or on the holiday.
Just plain sick :(
Tell that to this guys nephew,who watched him get shot during a car-jacking.
Tony Gordon (http://www.ofcc.net/article1299.html)
This is in Ohio,where there is currently no conceal carry law yet.Note however the criminal was armed.
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Originally posted by Sox62
Tell that to this guys nephew,who watched him get shot during a car-jacking.
Tony Gordon (http://www.ofcc.net/article1299.html)
This is in Ohio,where there is currently no conceal carry law yet.Note however the criminal was armed.
If he'd had a gun, maybe he wouldn't have gotten shot.
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Originally posted by Martlet
If he'd had a gun, maybe he wouldn't have gotten shot.
My point exactly.
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Too bad that happend, It looks like you guys need guns then.
But as I said in a earlyer post there is no need for it in my country and that is what i was talking about.
But Why do you get critical about other countries like britain, norway or other euro lands that manage fine without handguns beeing carried around by everyone that feel for it.
That cannot be a problem for Americans at all in my eyes, you guys try sort out your own problems first.
(We got criminals in euroland too, but they seems to be "nicer/not that trigger happy" like american criminals by some reason)
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and if guns wouldn't been made so common in US, maybe he wouldn't have got shot either.
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Originally posted by airguard
Too bad that happnes, It looks like you guys need guns then.
But as I said in a earlyer post there is no need for it in my country and that is what i was talking about.
But Why do you get critical about other countries like britain, norway or other euro lands that mangage fine without handguns beeing carried around by everyone that feel for it.
That cannot be a problem for Americans at all in my eyes, you guys try sort out your own problems first.
(We got criminals in euroland too, but they seems to be nicer/not that trigger happy like american criminals by some reason)
I can't speak for everyone else, but I'm not critical about countries that don't allow guns. If you're comfortable with it, that's fine. It's your country.
I like my guns. I enjoy the sport and security they provide. I love the history. I still have a German gun that was brought back by my great uncle in WWII, and handed down. I look forward to handing it down to my children.
It's all about your comfort level. I'm not comfortable with the government disarming me. If you are, it's none of my business.
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Originally posted by Fishu
and if guns wouldn't been made so common in US, maybe he wouldn't have got shot either.
He was a criminal. If you take guns away from the people, only the criminals will have them.
You still haven't answered my question in the other thread. Was that a baseless hit and run that I can just discredit, like the other trash you spew?
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He would have been bonked on the head, or run through, strangled,or perhaps even shot with a crossbow. Or not as apperantly murder was invented with blackpowder.
You dont need a gun in Ohio you barbarians! Your car should be able to outrun a bullet.
Of course there is something to be learned from the Viking Age, if there is a viking knocking on your door you better have a bigger sword or a bow. otherwise your possesions and wife are taking a trip to Norway.
All the crime I've seen in euroland have been commited by 3rd world refugees from such happy lands as somalia,rwanda, serbia. They used knives,clubs, a pack of em jumped an old woman in the subway in front of me and about 10 other germans.
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Originally posted by airguard
Too bad that happend, It looks like you guys need guns then.
But as I said in a earlyer post there is no need for it in my country and that is what i was talking about.
But Why do you get critical about other countries like britain, norway or other euro lands that manage fine without handguns beeing carried around by everyone that feel for it.
That cannot be a problem for Americans at all in my eyes, you guys try sort out your own problems first.
(We got criminals in euroland too, but they seems to be "nicer/not that trigger happy" like american criminals by some reason)
From my perspective, the whole gun thing started here when Beetle went on a one-man crusade to interject America's gun laws into nearly every single discussion he entered.
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Originally posted by Kieran
From my perspective, the whole gun thing started here when Beetle went on a one-man crusade to interject America's gun laws into nearly every single discussion he entered.
Then all is fine kieran :D .
Only thing is beetle didnt mention gun at all in his first post, just muggin ?
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Originally posted by Fishu
and if guns wouldn't been made so common in US, maybe he wouldn't have got shot either.
I'll bet the carjacker purchased his legally....lol.Even if guns were harder to get,carjackers would find a way to get a gun.Pretty hard to do it with a knife through a window of a locked car.
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Originally posted by Martlet
I can't speak for everyone else, but I'm not critical about countries that don't allow guns. If you're comfortable with it, that's fine. It's your country.
I like my guns. I enjoy the sport and security they provide. I love the history. I still have a German gun that was brought back by my great uncle in WWII, and handed down. I look forward to handing it down to my children.
It's all about your comfort level. I'm not comfortable with the government disarming me. If you are, it's none of my business.
good post, we all agree about how we want in in our homelands then :)
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Sox62,
More legal guns means more illegal guns.
If you don't understand, read what I said before in this thread.
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Originally posted by frank3
And the Queens pelicans got a trauma because of bush!
Pelicans ? I thought it was Swans you couldn't disturb ?
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Airguard, if your country doesn't want its citizens armed, I really don't care. Same for Britain and any other country. My point is Beetle is reaping what he sowed.
Anyway... Norway and Finland both have a population density lower than my home state of Indiana, considered a pretty rural state by our standards. I don't live in fear of carjackings. I don't live in fear someone will bust into my house. In that way we are probably similar. However... if someone DOES bust into my home and I am in it, there is a good chance they will be shot. The very fact many homeowners are armed will make many people think twice about crawling through a window. You gotta weigh the risk of getting injured, killed, or caught against the relatively poor potential return.
Now our bigger cities... that's a problem.
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seriously... are all euros such little girls about guns or is it just the ones who post here?
LOL... like I want to hear about handguns from these wussies.
don't worry... your government will protect you from the bad men and make sure that you play nice.
lazs
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Originally posted by Fishu
Sox62,
More legal guns means more illegal guns.
If you don't understand, read what I said before in this thread.
Dude,this is the way it is.Our country is based on certain rights,one of which is the right to bear arms.It is not going away.Guns are legal to purchase-NOT ILLEGAL(unless you have a felony or history of violence or mental illness).
For whatever reason,six states still prohibit concealed carry of which Ohio is one,and as a result we have numerous carjackings.
I understood your post quite well,but as most anti-gun people never seem to grasp,criminals will ALWAYS find a way to obtain them,whether or not they are legal.
Your statement,"maybe if guns were illegal he wouldn't have been shot" is nothing but a cheap and mean way to justify your viewpoint that guns are bad.
I do know this though,if Tony Gordon had been armed,he at least would have had a fighting chance.
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All these threads end the same way. The Yanks are delighted with the status quo where they live, and the rest of the world is happy about things where they live. The Yanks point out what might or might not have happened if they were unarmed, overlooking the fact that it's because of their country's laissez faire stance on privately owned weapons that their law abiding citizens have a perceived need to arm themselves in the first place.
We, in the rest of the world, see things differently. We see regulation of firearms not as taking away our rights but of ensuring that we never have to come face to face with an armed assailant. It doesn't work perfectly, but neither does a US-style arms free for all. To see which method works best, check homicide rates for America versus the rest of the world.
The cigarette ban analogy springs to mind. America has taken great strides to eliminate smoking from restaurants and other public places - :) I don't see this as an impingement upon the rights of smokers to light up whenever and wherever they want. I see it as creating more freedom for MOST of us (the nonsmokers) to breathe clean air.
Same goes for firearms. I don't want to have to be armed, but might feel the need if all the local schmucks had got theirs. I am thankful that legislation in this and many other countries around the world has made this an improbable scenario, and leaves me free not to worry about having to tool up.
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Until newborns start dropping out of the womb with holsters and 44 Magnums i prefer my govn't prioritze on more basic rights like universal healthcare and safe environments.:aok
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Sox62,
Nobodys telling your country here, but they shouldn't either tell euros how to deal with it.
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LOL... basic rights like universal healthcare and safe environment? every person has a right to a hospital building and a bunch of people taking care of him? every person has the 'right' to no have a boulder fall on his head or lightning strike him?
seems being able to defend yourself is a lot more of a human right. seems a baby can't defend himself.. better he has someone to defend him. when he gets old enough he can defend others... or.... we could just make being a bad man illegal...
I can't beive that other than the couple of euros here that the rest of em have been so conned... love to see a pole. can't believe the world is full of these women.
lazs
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Lazs,
Problem is, like I said earlier, if people carries weapons all around, you'll be sure to see criminals doing the same and becoming even more hasty in their actions.
For a reason US has had gun control laws as well, instead of staying at the ol' wild west style gun control.
If lives in smaller cities or countryside, weapons doesn't become too big of a problem, but when it's a big city, the danger of abuse increases.
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if they abuse it they go to jail or die. simple really. what really happens is that the crooks don;t want the extra sentace so they don't go armed that oftern but they run into armed citizens who can shoot them with impunity.. just the way it should be.
our crime rate is going down while most others are going up.
lazs
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Originally posted by Fishu
Lazs,
Problem is, like I said earlier, if people carries weapons all around, you'll be sure to see criminals doing the same and becoming even more hasty in their actions.
For a reason US has had gun control laws as well, instead of staying at the ol' wild west style gun control.
If lives in smaller cities or countryside, weapons doesn't become too big of a problem, but when it's a big city, the danger of abuse increases.
That's the difference between the whiny liberals and the conservatives. You guys want the government to be your mommy and daddy.
We'd prefer to accept some risks to preserve our freedom.
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and meanwhile passing patriot act laws to let your goverment act as your mommy and daddy :lol
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Originally posted by Fishu
and meanwhile passing patriot act laws to let your goverment act as your mommy and daddy :lol
While you now have a government run by only your mommy. Guess I'm gonna hafta do a bit of digging to compare relative freedoms between our countries.
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Something like this would cause a loud outcry in the US.
"In late 2002, VTT Technologies, a government research center, developed a new type of high frequency (900 MHz) Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) tag that can be read with a transceiver up to four meters away. The signal can also penetrate obstacles. VTT experts believe that these RFID tags will be commonplace within ten years. In the Helsinki region, the most familiar application of RFID technology is the new travel cards that are replacing paper tickets in the area's public transport system. The partners in the project are Helsinki Metropolitan Area Council (YTV), Helsinki City Transport, and the railway company VR. The use of travel cards is recorded in a database. This information can be accessed to aid transport capacity planning. The movements of travel card users are saved and can be accessed for later retrieval. The data from the transport system has been used for crime investigations in serious cases.[1103]"
http://www.privacyinternational.org/survey/phr2003/countries/finland.htm
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Originally posted by Fishu
and meanwhile passing patriot act laws to let your goverment act as your mommy and daddy :lol
Obviously you haven't taken the time to read the Patriot Act. The two aren't even comparable. Do you ever bother to inform yourself on the subject you chose to jump into?
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I am against the patriot act. I would much rather just give agents a licence to kill. sure... they make a mistake now and then but no big deal.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
LOL... basic rights like universal healthcare and safe environment? every person has a right to a hospital building and a bunch of people taking care of him? every person has the 'right' to no have a boulder fall on his head or lightning strike him?
seems being able to defend yourself is a lot more of a human right. seems a baby can't defend himself.. better he has someone to defend him. when he gets old enough he can defend others... or.... we could just make being a bad man illegal...
I can't beive that other than the couple of euros here that the rest of em have been so conned... love to see a pole. can't believe the world is full of these women.
lazs
Little scared white man with a gun and a fetish for womenly men.
Sounds alot like J Edgar Hoover to me.:aok
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torque... whats the matter... don't have any famous people or interesting things happening in canada? bush... j edgar... gun control... you got a real U.S.A. fetish.. As for the mike moore stereotype of "scared white guy with a gun" going around killing anyone...
our white homicide rate is the same as yours and canadian bigotry is every bit as bad as U.S. bigotry. you guys even have allmost seperate countries for the you and the french. Asians in vancouver...
as for scared... look at your city crime... ours is going down. it is you who should be afraid.
lazs
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well lazzz guess they dont neeed to have any "socalled famous people needed to run their country" or what ?
I dont think that was torque`s point lol.
I said it earlyer and say it agian some of you guys here, cant hear anyting that goes agaist youre socalled (selfdefined) moral laws.... and let it pass like a debate.
you just have to harras and insult people thinking otherwise.
How come ? Youre not able to discuss anything,,,,, grow up :(
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airgaurd... I will discuss anything but... taking away peoples rights is beyond the pale... there is no point in discussing it. No one should be able to vote away anothers rights. Women do this tho... men who do this are simply womenly men and....
there are no lack of insults to go around. you and torque are as guilty as anyone but you cry like a baby when it comes back at you.
lazs