Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Midnight on December 06, 2001, 08:54:00 AM
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Less of a "I'll stay high until there are only a couple guys left to kill" event.
Fuel Limiters. Limit the fuel to 50% or whatever will give about 15 minutes or so per round.
If the object is that the winner is determined by the most kills per round, I would say this would prevent a lot of "stratiegic attack positioning" and get everyone into the fight quickly.
I've only been in one Wild Wednesday, and I spent the majority of the first round trying to catch Fester as he climbed and climbed. I finally got tired of it and went in after the 4 guys brawling under me.
If we all had fuel limits or something to prevent people from staying out of the fights, Wild Wednesday might get a lot more interesting.
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I agree that it is possible to stay high and out of trouble. Fester picks his fight carefully and last night had 5 kills in one round.
People mentioned Altitude Caps and limit fuel loads etc.
I love the event and am definately interested in your ideas.....
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First of all...the event is not determined by who gets the most kills per round. It is "last man standing". The only time kills come into play is if we dont have a winner (no one wins 2 rounds). At that point we go to overall k/d for the night...which includes all 3 rounds. Unfortunately, we have never had to use this criteria because evidently everyone enjoys watching Fester win and letting him choose the new plane each week. ;)
We have discussed having an alt cap before, and I just dont see the sense in it. I mean, really, the alt monkey is gonna have to come down eventually right? If he wants to climb up there and perch and wait until everyone else dies then let him. Seems like an awful boring way to spend his time in a furball intensive fun event like this. One thing is sure though, if this is how he spends each round, then he damn well better win 2 of them or it does him no good whatsoever because his K/D is not gonna be so great.
As far as fuel goes, since its in the rules that you must bail when outta ammo or fuel, why would you limit fuel loads? If a guy wants to load 100%, he can and he better hope there aint nobody near him with a lighter load that can outmanuver him. :)
I appreciate the feedback guys and we will take all suggestions under advisement. I am glad you are enjoying yourselves in this event. :D
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"We have discussed having an alt cap before, and I just dont see the sense in it. I mean, really, the alt monkey is gonna have to come down eventually right? "
Very true, but it does lead to chess like tactics and a "wait and see" approach. You're equally right when you say such players damage their K/D, but I'm not sure many are confidant enough of their abilities to consider that far ahead. In summation, flying for endurance, or even K/D goes against what I see as the spirit of WW: A wild, wild frag fest!
I'd very much like to see "standard" plane set ups such as ammo loads and fuel burns in all events, after all, a Tiffy with 1000 rnds that empties it's tanks in 2 minites isn't really a Tiff, if you see my point.
But perhaps a storm front at say, 15K could keep the fights a bit compressed. However, I'd like to see what effect any new maps may have before too much "tweaking" occurs.
One thing that may be nice however is to change planes after each round, not each week. Skernsk pulled off a very quick and smooth change from Hurri to Wulf last night, and the radicaly different planes seemed to please both ends of the player spectrum.
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Originally posted by Seeker:
[QB
I'd very much like to see "standard" plane set ups such as ammo loads and fuel burns in all events, after all, a Tiffy with 1000 rnds that empties it's tanks in 2 minites isn't really a Tiff, if you see my point.
[/QB]
I am very confused by what you are saying here Seeker. The ammo and fuel loads used in the WW event are the same as the loads in the MA. What exactly are you getting at here?
And on another note, the 3rd round last nite was done the way it was done simply because of the fact that Fester had already won by default because of Zigrats fuel status. In order to reward Zig for killing Fester, Skernsk gave him choice of aircraft for round 3, which was just a fun round because the winner for the week was already decided.
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"I am very confused by what you are saying here Seeker. The ammo and fuel loads used in the WW event are the same as the loads in the MA. What exactly are you getting at here?"
Sorry to be confusing! Basicaly stating support for current policy.
I've seen people asking for more ammo (for the La) and for more fuel burn (for the Hurri), and I hope not to see that.
I'm all for experimenting with game play issues, but the plane charecteristics should be inviolate IMHO.
As to last night's results, I though Skernsk's solution as referee in addition to being an "arena setter upper" a perfect example of quality CM'ing.
This keeps getting better, thanks to all involved.
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Do the current parameters of WW allow plane choice?
Example, arena setup for A6M5b and F6F-5, your choice of platform for that particular WW or does that get into "its the plane not the pilot" thing?
Just curious.
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Originally posted by sling322:
First of all...the event is not determined by who gets the most kills per round. It is "last man standing". The only time kills come into play is if we dont have a winner (no one wins 2 rounds).
Well maybe that's the problem here then. Basically what you are saying is that the guy who can manage his fuel best will be the guy that wins WW. Kind of lame, because how "WILD" would you say this would be....
<daydream mode on>
Announcer: And the winner of Wild Wednesday is Midnight! What plane will we use next week, Midnight?
Midnight: We will use the P-51D :D
The Next Week: Wild wednesday starts and all players launch in their P-51Ds. Midnight loads up with 100% fuel and DTs, takes the "Strateigic approch" and climbs to altitude while avoiding all the other players.
After flying at MAX CRUISE setting at 26K for 1.5 HOURS, 2 P-51s are left circling, carefully managing their fuel status to see which one can hold out the longest.
</day dream mode off>
Sounds pretty lame huh? The "winner" could be the guy that never even fires a shot or even tries to get in position to make a shot.
No offense, but I really think Wild Wednesday should put a little more emphasis on dog-fighting and killing other planes.
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OK Midnight, I see your point here, but I dont think the guys who are interested in flying in the WW event are of the mindset that they would take advantage of game flaws like that. And, if they did, hell that is what the ".eject XXX" command is for. :D
Seriously, maybe we do have to look into setting an alt cap in the future, but for right now we havent had a big problem with guys abusing the "climb and wait strategy". I think the event has been a big hit so far and I appreciate the input that you guys are putting in, but I think what we are trying to do is keep it from being bogged down by rules. I mean, use your common sense guys. This is supposed to be about fun and furballin'....not rules and how to exploit them.
And I see exactly what you were saying now Seeker and I agree totally. I was shocked to see folks asking for more ammo in the La5 last time and there was no way I was gonna change the multiplier and give them more.
And for your question Apache...no it doesn't. The plane is chosen by the winner from the previous week and everybody flies it. Fuel and ammo load is at pilot discretion of course.
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: sling322 ]
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WW is still in its early stages. I see no reason to try something different.
As for switching planes. I did that by the seat of my pants. I was having a blast and didn't want to see WW end :)
I was pulling for Fester all through Round 2 because I wanted to fly a fun round with LANC to convince the CM "brass" that we should allow bombers in WW.
Zig made a great dead stick "snap shot" on Fester at the end of round 2. He should have been "ejected" for breaking the rules :).
Who knows what surprises are in store for the event in the future.
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WILD WEDNESDAY, Great Event :)
I don't see alt as a problem (IMO), When the event gets off the ground most everyone goes for ALT and position right off the get-go..
Last night I passed Fester, we turned, Rock & Rolled a tad till other's joined in and got separated by S/A and the fight took another direction. :eek: I didn't take enough fuelski to begin with and had to ditch.
Second round, Started at ALT as most everyone did, got hooked up with Osage, wasted all my cannon ammo tryin to Toast him. We Rock & Roll on the deck, Low & Slow, I pinged him several times, Os got the reverse on me and Put the serious Flames ON...Great Fun. :p
Most everyone here has put the Flames on me and I have put the Flames on more than a few. Wild Wednesday is an event to fly & Fight with some really Great Pilots. Advanced ACM class U may say..Great Fun, I say...Don't change it. :cool: ...Te...
TeeeRex
332nd Flying Mongrels
Dogs of War
(Have Guns / Will Travel)
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sling said "If he wants to climb up there and perch and wait until everyone else dies then let him. Seems like an awful boring way to spend his time in a furball intensive fun event"
Yep but all ya gotta do is look in the MA to see how many guys are imune to boredom.
I once won a "duel" long ago by making the rules. Last man up won. My Hog against a 190a4.. I didn't actually do the fight... the guy figured it out and backed off. All I had to do was run till his A4 ran out of fuel. Course if he did something really stupid I would take the risk free kill but I was guarenteed winner without firing a shot. For some reason... WW gives me a (pardon the expression) a disturbing deja vu.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs1:
For some reason... WW gives me a (pardon the expression) a disturbing deja vu.
lazs
I've only attended 1 1/3rd WWs, but I just didn't see this happening. Lots of folks grabbed alt and position, but ultimately everyone mixed it up. I have yet to die because I ran out of fuel to a higher badguy who was just meandering around. It just doesn't happen, least of all right near the end.
That's not to say that it wouldn't or couldn't happen, but I haven't seen it. Most guys are willing to grab enough alt to give them an advantage in a fight but no more than necessary.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Todd, we talked about this in the other thread. It does happen, though it is not a big deal. Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen elsewhere.
WW is great, but you can bet there are going to be some rule changes down the road to prevent the timid types from becoming default winners. Kinda goes against the spirit of the game, doesn't it?
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Aside form guys loitering up high what other changes should be made?
How to fix guys up high:
Seeker mentioned a cloud layer. The only problem I have is that when you fight under the clouds then you get that "greyed out" effect which I would like to avoid.
We could say nothing over 12k but we as CM's can't "police" that and inevitably somebody would go higher and sombody else will scream for a "do-over".
What else sould we do? Eject a guy for not engaging :D
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: skernsk ]
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I like it exactly how it is. I think choosing the right fuel loadout is part of the "strategery" :D
Nim
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half the kills ive won in ww were from a disadvantage. :) no one gives me credit for the good turn the tables kills though (which occur almost every round of ww :p just the kills from advantage I get :)
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I give you all the credit in the world- you're a great stick. I knew when I was chasing you the moment you turned I would probably die, but that's me- I wanted to fight you.
I love WW. I had fun, despite the fact my observations about it make it sound as if I didn't. I like any options we have for expanded play, and I know as a former CM what it takes to put this kind of stuff together. Nothing but admiration for whoever it was that brought it up.
Kinda sorry I took offense at a comment in another thread, it has taken WW down a path it doesn't need to go (yet, anyway). It was merely the attitude of one player I was trying to address, not the whole concept.
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Originally posted by skernsk:
How to fix guys up high:
Seeker mentioned a cloud layer. The only problem I have is that when you fight under the clouds then you get that "greyed out" effect which I would like to avoid.
someone's mentioned having very strong winds above the max.alt... like, so much wind that noone would go there. :)
edit:
btw. I really enjoy this event. Great fun! Doesn't need so much changing in my opinion.
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: iceydee ]
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I wholeheartly am for an alt cap.
When the event gets to be more popular (which I assume it will be) and more of a bragging right, people will start to be alt monkeys more and more.
What fun is it when you have 10 people go furballing down on the deck while one other guy sits on the other side of the map at 35k. When that major furball only has one plane left, with less then 100% ammo and fuel status, he can be picked off by that one guy who just sat high the entire frame?
It's never come down to k:d except for last week, when Levi and I both won a round but we were about 5 min over the limit somehow for the time. I hadn't been in the SEA in time for round one so I didn't have a chance to win the event. So, anyway, without k:d being a major factor, it's all about winning each round. And right now, the best way to win is to keep as far out from the fight as long as possible.
People will always game the game. Making an alt-cap at 15k will not allow them to not be able to keep out of the fights as well since it doesn't take much time to get to 15k. And I don't personally see how an alt cap could hurt WW at all. It'll make it more of a furball!
When gunman26 wins a WW because of being a gamey alt monkey, thats when you'll change it
:D
edit - also, it'd add a lot to the event for those who have died to be able to see the fights better.
either a terrain with a ton of towers to look from or CM eye being enabled (which i think would be best) would do the trick.
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: moose ]
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damnit!
every time i offer up a suggestion, the topic dies.
why?
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Originally posted by moose:
why?
Dunno, but alt cap has been suggested before and it has been swatted down :D
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I think the 200 MPH 15K crosswind's a workable idea.
Is it possible to have multiple cloud layers? I really like the "white cotton puffs" being there in WW, on a couple of occasions I've had some fun "hide and seek" matches; yet I can agree with Skernsk's view that a full storm front can look a bit grey.
So if multiple layers are possible, how about one "cotton puff" layer at a usable fight hight, and another at 15K. Any one seen with CM eye popping out through the upper layer gets the boot? It'd be easier for pilots to keep an eye on than an arbitrary mark on the altimeter.
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Originally posted by skernsk:
Aside form guys loitering up high what other changes should be made?
How to fix guys up high:
Use a wind at 20K that is maximum velocity and another at 21K that is maximum velocity in the opposite direction. Anyone caught up in that mess is bound to loose control and get in a spin.
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well... another suggestion would be to allow any alt or fuel load therefore perserving the "strategy" aspect of choice but....
Make a time limit.. say 10 minutes from start. It would then be last man standing who had the most kills. say 5 guys were left alive when the clock ran out... The guy with the most kills of those "survivors"...wins. Use assists to break the tie if any. This would insure the "wild" part of WW and balance out the various strategies no matter who attended the event in the future.
lazs
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You already have free choice of fuel, Laz.
And to be honest, we're discussing this "in advance"; as there's been a joyfull abscence of "accountancy", so far, at least.
You really should come along, you'd be most welcome.
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I feel so ignored.
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"You already have free choice of fuel, Laz."
Yes that had been said. I was merely saying that you could preserve that feature and do away with "holding back".
lazs
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Originally posted by sling322:
And for your question Apache...no it doesn't. The plane is chosen by the winner from the previous week and everybody flies it. Fuel and ammo load is at pilot discretion of course.
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: sling322 ]
I answered your question Apache....see above. :)
As far as an alt cap goes, I might be in favor of the wind thing. But for right now I would like to get the new map in and see what you guys think before we start adding in alt cap rules. The map we have under consideration is a little different than the one we have now because the fields are set at 8k alt and there are rings of hills around them that go up to almost 30k at the outer edge. Its like a giant bowl. :)
Hopefully we can get this one approved and up for use ASAP.
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Actually, Lazs may be on the right track.
You see, making the win linked more intrinsically to kills will force the timid pilots to engage. 10 minutes may be too short, but if you put some time limit on it you guarantee you finish at a certain time, meaning scheduling becomes easier as well. Sure, someone might still play WW as a strat game, but he/she won't win.
Last guy standing with the most kills makes very good sense to me.
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Originally posted by sling322:
I answered your question Apache....see above. :)
As far as an alt cap goes, I might be in favor of the wind thing. But for right now I would like to get the new map in and see what you guys think before we start adding in alt cap rules. The map we have under consideration is a little different than the one we have now because the fields are set at 8k alt and there are rings of hills around them that go up to almost 30k at the outer edge. Its like a giant bowl. :)
Hopefully we can get this one approved and up for use ASAP.
I feel so stupid.
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One thing is you're missing one of the rules that the original AW KOTH event had and that was :
Once IN IN IN is called **ALL** pilots must be actively engaged in fighting.
Another was:
Alt limit is 5K when not engaged. 8K is max manuevering limit.
These eliminated the guys that would just tool around the arena waiting for the crowd to get culled by everyone else. Regardless its still an honor system thing.
Remember guys--its supposed to be a pilot thing not a strategy thing. What if everyone just did laps around the arena? Heck you'd run out of time! Wouldn't be a very exciting event.
Another thing I don't like is that the same plane is used round after round. In AW we let whoever won the round select the plane for the NEXT round. Theoretically there'd be a different plane EVERY round and there usually was. Ya just never knew what you'd be flying ;). That way you get a good cross section of good pilots period not just good spit drivers or pony drivers or 109 drivers etc.
My thoughts anyway.
Drano
Gotta move this thing to Friday night and make it open ended too! Wednesday's a killer for me--kids etc. Hike up the challenge to 3 rounds won too and you've got something!
Originally posted by Midnight:
Less of a "I'll stay high until there are only a couple guys left to kill" event.
Fuel Limiters. Limit the fuel to 50% or whatever will give about 15 minutes or so per round.
If the object is that the winner is determined by the most kills per round, I would say this would prevent a lot of "stratiegic attack positioning" and get everyone into the fight quickly.
I've only been in one Wild Wednesday, and I spent the majority of the first round trying to catch Fester as he climbed and climbed. I finally got tired of it and went in after the 4 guys brawling under me.
If we all had fuel limits or something to prevent people from staying out of the fights, Wild Wednesday might get a lot more interesting.
[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: Drano ]
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Originally posted by Drano:
the original AW KOTH event
[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: Drano ]
SACRILIGE!!!
I dare you mention such things. Ban him to the dungeon :D
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My my aren't we the bitter one, Rotor! Hehe. I got yer Sac-rilige right here! : )
Seriously tho, I was only pointing out that WW isn't a "new" event at all--its something that was "borrowed" from AW--KOTH. Fact. New to the AH guys--sure. For some reason that's not yet clear to me the AH team has only adopted *some* of the ruleset to the AW/KOTH event. There's no reason to re-invent the wheel here. We flew this event for quite a long while and the rules were developed *over time* for certain reasons. These reasons are now becoming clearer to some (Midnight for example) but not others <shrug>.
Why waste time coming to the same conclusions that we came to long ago over in AW? That's pretty much where I'm comin from here. This has all been done already folks. Which sim its in simply isn't relevant.
Drano
"If everybody's thinking the same thing, then nobody's thinking!"---Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf
Originally posted by Rotorian:
SACRILIGE!!!
I dare you mention such things. Ban him to the dungeon :D
[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: Drano ]
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Originally posted by Drano:
My my aren't we the bitter one, Rotor! Hehe. I got yer Sac-rilige right here! : )
[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: Drano ]
Damn it, I hate being countertrolled :P
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New to the AH guys--sure. For some reason that's not yet clear to me the AH team has only adopted *some* of the ruleset to the AW/KOTH event.
You can blame me for that. Please keep in mind what the AW folks enjoyed may not be what the AH crowd would. Now, by no choice of our own we are one. :) WW is an idea from AW, and a good one. TOD is an idea from WB, again a good one. TOD is not the S3's and WW is not KOTH. What worked well in WB or AW may not here. The community is different, the AC are different, the CM tools are different. Don't make the mistake of thinking it worked there so it should work here.
The players from AW have a lot to offer and WW is just one of those items. WW might end up identical to KOTH, but the road we use to get there IMHO needs to be our own.
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CM C.O.daddog
Weekly Events
332nd Flying Mongrels (http://www.ropescourse.org/flying.htm)
Noses in the wind since 1997
Snapshots & TOD! (http://events.hitechcreations.com/)
(http://www.ropescourse.org/cdaddog.jpg)
Life is ten percent what you make it and ninety percent how you take it
Irving Berlin
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lazs making suggestions to an event he has never attended?
nice
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Fester making suggestions to an event he's never lost? :)
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I should do these wild wednesdays, they sound like fun. :D
However it seems the winner is always the one one who just sits back high and waits for
others to die, run out of gas, or run out of ammo.
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They are fun, Grun. Don't let the discussion on a point ruin it for you. Best to get in and try, then you can make an informed observation. The "run and wait" strategy must have been noticed by more than me given the amount of discussion on it, but it seems to me there are plenty of useful suggestions for addressing the point. It will all get sorted out.
At any rate you owe it to yourself to try at least once.
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festabria... I guess my suggestion wouldn't sit well with you. No surprise there eh?
No. I have not attended but I have been brought into this thing quite a bit. Or, My handle has. I feel I can mention what I think would make for a good event especially if it is as simple and obvious a one as I have stated. Right now it seems custom tailored to festabria. You have a good combination of skill and "strategic" self preservbation. Not a bad thing but I would like to see more of a free for all. less use of long range strategy.
See kieran for translation of above if there is any confusion.
lazs
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so why dont you try flying on wild wed lazs
the issue of the alt monkey is a lot less of an issue than people make it out to be till the very very end of the frame when you have to wait out some looser b&zing the other remaining player and everyone is getting impatient for the next frame.
after the initial climb that everyone does I and most others are at 5000 feet or less dogging. now if you call that strategic planning your wrong. its more fighting people co e and avoiding the one guy up at 20k waiting for the end of the frame.
Ive only found one gross sick instance of alt monkey disease. and that was when f5bomber stayed up at 20k after everyone else was dead and I was at 2k. he stayed up there for a good 5 minutes before he finally died doing some wierd zoom in front of my guns.
as for strategy the only time I start strategizing is when a group organizes to kill me, breaks the rules of the so called free for all and basically wings up with eachother for the specific mission to shoot me down at all costs. i drag them in a big circle around the center of the arena at low altitude wait for mistakes and reverse on them when some "alt dweeb" dives on them.
in the la5 ww (which I did not win) I made 3 people auger one after the other after the bounced me from above, on top of that gained 5 more kills from a disadvantage before being blown to hell by a "player with speed and alt" (i was at sea level) while in a desperate low speed scissors with tac.
so the event is what you make it. and I think you would like it a lot lazs. come try it out it is best event AH has going now.
only suggestion I would make is to have a designated ww terrain without walls but with an out of bounds circle which once crossed player is out of the frame and must auger or be booted by the ref. like football and stuff :)
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But tell me, what is wrong with the "whoever has the most kills at the end of the time limit" idea? Seems to me it would force people to engage, which is the point, right?
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"But tell me, what is wrong with the "whoever has the most kills at the end of the time limit" idea? "
Just a far-fetched scenario, but if I saw Levi and Cit engageing each other, I could probably clean up a couple of guys in the back ground, score more kills then either of them, and still suck....
I'm looking forward to the new map. It sounds like there'll be no place for any potential accountants to hide.....
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I got nothing against WW.. Like I said, I will go there if I am not having fun in the main and if I don't have to wait around. It's simply not important to me one way or the other. Why?
Well.. I fight like that in the main anyway but can do it with a friend or two on RW. With no start times or rules. I come in at medium alt to a big fur... There are people co (or reasonably so) alt and people below me and guys people alt monkeying around the fur. In the main.. wussies being clever have little or no effect on me. They are in their own game. I don't have to participate. It makes no difference if I fly, kill, die, reup 10 times while they are off playing sky accountant. How would WW be better than that?
the time limit would at least make all styles play under the same handicap and would determine who was the best (and/or luckiest)in a fur not.. Who was the most consevative or cleverest. Clever has never been cute to me. furvballs would seem to be about fighting... "Wild" would seem to be about chaotic not clever. Even one dufus at 20k would kinda spoil it I would think.
lazs
lazs
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Guess I don't see a problem there, Seeker. If you are going to avoid either one of those guys you will do it regardless. You've nothing to gain butting into their fight either way, as I see it. Yes, you would try to kill people, and that is what would make the event move along.
I saw it like this; it took over an hour to play three rounds. There were calls on the radio for those that were left to move to the center of the arena. More calls. More calls. If you have to grab all the kills you can to win, you can't wait. Sure, you have to be alive to enjoy the kills, but getting the kills will be more fun than flying around the arena praying for a miracle when you do have to face that last guy.
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seeker... if your better than them you will score more kills in the time limit. If not you will die before the time limit or have less kills. Easy kills are the luck factor but skill and SA should still prevail.
lazs