Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: anton on November 29, 2003, 08:55:03 PM
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Just logged off infinty map. On the west we had bout 30 knits fighting about 5 rooks. On the east we had about 30 rooks fighting about 5 Bish. As usual for my flight time the Knit/Bish front appeared very small in comparison. Just Dar Sect counters mind you, plenty GV action that can't be counted from map view.
It would appear to me that I have becomea minority in that I get very bored with horde circumstances. IMO 30 on 5 sux whether yer the 30 or the 5. Am I alone in this thought?
After repeated failed attempts to draw the green HORDE over to fight the red HORDE, I logged in sorrow at this sad state of affairs. Missing the action that comes from a good even numbered battle.
Will the Horde get Bored? Doesn't seem likely. The bases go back & forth, depending on the hordes fickle flow. Maybe when AH2 comes out things will change. I for 1 am hopeful.
Anton
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Anton, I hear you. I checked the map and found mostly huge dar bars beating up small dar bars. Out of frustration I flew 2 sorties into the gv crater; not much action there, but at least I saw new terrain. It is hard to find a fight in which you can actually fight without getting run down by a 51 or lala, errr several 51's and lala's. In fact, if you want to be able to get out alive, you almost HAVE to fly a really fast plane and never let your speed down. Boring. I hope the hordes get bored but not likely.
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I concur with u on everything written so far as I watched in utter
amazement as plane #1 was chased by plane # 2, who in turn was chased by plane # 3, who was chased by plane #4 who in
turn was chased by plane #5 with each 1 shooting the former down, with me shooting dwn plane #5 & then my plane was shot dwn ;) Did I enjoy that scenario? The answer is a fervent NO as I couldn't learn anything from any1 & aerial gangbangs avail
no satisfaction to me :)
Btw, this event transpired in H2H arena.
Happy1 :D
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I make every attempt to end the Locomotive o' Lame by killing the poor schmo at the front of it as quickly as possible when I witness such sad behavior. Then I'll typically strafe his chute.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Your not alone Anton.
How to fix?
Htc's fault or players fault?
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Nothing against AH but it's an induced thing with having a 3 sided war. It's also the individuals fault to an extent. Some fail to just give up a base when it's well beyond saving. But with how the 3 sided war thing goes it's bound to happen.
I'd honestly like to see a 2 sided war with a bit more complexed base placements. I think all in all it'd make for some great fighting. I think a 2 sided war would make a more realistic arena. Fighter scrambles, strategic targets, ect... The only thing folks do to strats (cities, factories,ect..) is pork them for there score. The factories should have a larger affect on the whole output of the game.
But with something such as this folks will whine about lengths of flights and driving. And you'll get the normal complaint about stalemate and such. I still think you'd see alot of the larger buff missions/escort and larger ground/air support missions coming about. Right now it just seems as a cluster of chaos constantly.
But the question is who goes where when that happens. I think that would be the hardest thing to change overall.
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hit sprites.
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I agree with you, Anton, and I would have logged as well. It seems to happen when the fields are too close together such that one side can maintain a conveyor belt effect. You can never get anywhere even if you kill the first 4-5 cons coming in because by the time you've killed the fifth, #1 is right back at you and may have replaced his former ride with a higher performance plane and is in for the grudge match - and wants your arse.
The whole problem has its roots in the payment plan for AH. With a flat rate game working out at only 50 cents a day, it's going to attract all the gamey tardz who have no interest in WW2, but instead want nothing more than to pummel a fire button and watch stuff go BOOM every 5 seconds. Some even measure their "skill" on that basis. :lol
With adequate spacing of fields, the tardz quickly get bored of having to fly for more than 5 minutes to get back to where they were right before their last suicide, and either log off themselves, or go to the BBS to whine about the map, or go to the DA which is where they belong in the first place.
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Originally posted by beet1e
I agree with you, Anton, and I would have logged as well. It seems to happen when the fields are too close together such that one side can maintain a conveyor belt effect. You can never get anywhere even if you kill the first 4-5 cons coming in because by the time you've killed the fifth, #1 is right back at you and may have replaced his former ride with a higher performance plane and is in for the grudge match - and wants your arse.
The whole problem has its roots in the payment plan for AH. With a flat rate game working out at only 50 cents a day, it's going to attract all the gamey tardz who have no interest in WW2, but instead want nothing more than to pummel a fire button and watch stuff go BOOM every 5 seconds. Some even measure their "skill" on that basis. :lol
With adequate spacing of fields, the tardz quickly get bored of having to fly for more than 5 minutes to get back to where they were right before their last suicide, and either log off themselves, or go to the BBS to whine about the map, or go to the DA which is where they belong in the first place.
Beet ... you thread hijackin' bastage. :D
He is talking about the INFINITY MAP !!!
The fields are NOT spaced close together on this map so your post is "muut".
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Beet ... you thread hijackin' bastage. :D
He is talking about the INFINITY MAP !!!
The fields are NOT spaced close together on this map so your post is "muut".
I don't agree. If the numbers are such that it's 30 v 5, then even the Infinity map field spacing is not going to be enough to prevent conveyor belting. Anton was talking about a particular instance on Infinity. Does that mean that I too was talking about a particular map? I don't think I mentioned a map. I was talking about the Quake style play. And that is not limited to any particular map, but becomes less likely as field spacing is increased and/or the aircraft concentration between two points is decreased. In fact Anton himself didn't mention a map, except in passing to say he'd logged off from Infinity. But the scenario he described could just as easily have applied to QWW or Children's.
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Originally posted by beet1e
I don't agree. If the numbers are such that it's 30 v 5, then even the Infinity map field spacing is not going to be enough to prevent conveyor belting. Anton was talking about a particular instance on Infinity. Does that mean that I too was talking about a particular map? I don't think I mentioned a map. I was talking about the Quake style play. And that is not limited to any particular map, but becomes less likely as field spacing is increased and/or the aircraft concentration between two points is decreased. In fact Anton himself didn't mention a map, except in passing to say he'd logged off from Infinity. But the scenario he described could just as easily have applied to QWW or Children's.
Nice try Beet !!!
Fields ... smeilds ... I think what he is pointing out is the ever growing timidity of gameplay in the MA. Can't go anywhere without a group for fear of dying.
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this is allways the case on the big maps with the fields too far apart.. everyone is afraid to get too far from home so they go in mobs. close fields prevent this.
lazs
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Todd, you the Same Todd that used to fly in AW when it was on AOHELL under the same handle with Douce101, Wrace, Rawhide, 6guns,Ken1 and a host of others and the old *Iron Dogs*?
If so Dunno if youremember me but I'm qg123/raptor
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I make every attempt to end the Locomotive o' Lame by killing the poor schmo at the front of it as quickly as possible when I witness such sad behavior. Then I'll typically strafe his chute.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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This crap will always happen because sad fact is, ya tend to live longer and get more kills when ya fly with a buncha buddies. Then THAT friendly blob gets bigger and bigger, to the extent there are 5guys fitin over an La7 as it raises gear, while far side map ya got noble defenders getting jumped by dweeb planes like cat tossed over fence into dog pound. Few folks WANT a challenge. (I dont often try to fight them, as i suck in fighter, but i DO try strat their bases;)
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Seems to me the best way to stop the steamroll is to go to offending bases and taking out the barracks. then flyhing back in the direction of your own base goonhunting along the way for any goons that may have upped already.
I know I by myself have managed to stop several offencives in this way. Or have at least slowed them down enough for help to arrive.
Destroy trooping ability and you stop. or at least slowdown the steamroll effect. Next in priority would be fuel. then ammo.
Often the best way to do this is not with a great horde of planes but with 1 lone aircraft sneaking in and popping the barracks.
great hordes pof planes tend to attract alot of attention where as with one lone planeisnt viewed as being ad much of a threat till its too late where one of two things tend to happen. either 1
All 30 planes upping chase the one lone plane attacking (something I have always found to be humorous especially when there are a horde of high incomming planes less then half a sector away)
or 2 two eveyone ignores him thinging someone else will get him.
Either way it usually doesnt matter unless someone with a brain sets up a high cap over his own base waiting for folks like myself to do exactly what I am discribing which is usually the exeption rather then the norm.
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Lately I've been thinking that TOD may have the opposite effect of what I had first supposed.
Given the current situation on the big maps/far fields, it may turn out that the best chance of real action may be in the TOD setup. If I understand that concept, it's based around setting up an actual ENGAGEMENT.
Wouldn't it be funny if all the strateegerists ended up in the MA steamrollering bases in their lemming hordes and patting themselves on the back about how they "won the war" while the guys that like to fight ended up in TOD getting far better fights than these big boring maps offer?
Oh, the irony if that happens!
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You maybe right. HT has said there would be no war winning or base capture in the ToD arena.. There will be no need for "impact players". OTOH, if there is no balance, one that satisfies those who are looking toward the rps element HT mentioned and encouraging "combat" we may find long boring flights where folks avoid contact. What ever happens I don’t know that we will see a return to 50-75 man fur balls like we used to see at a4 and a5 on the island map.
Maybe rename the main "Territorial Combat Arena".
Keep the "TOD Arena"
And close the ct and Change it to the "Air Combat Arena" with no trappings of the silly war winning and small maps laid out to facilitate the fight. Rotate fighters based on year but have all the planes available to both sides.
Of course this may split the main and the need for large maps will go away.
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30 Rook vs 5 Bish? Sounds evenly matched to me. :p
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Beet ... you thread hijackin' bastage. :D
He is talking about the INFINITY MAP !!!
The fields are NOT spaced close together on this map so your post is "muut".
ud better go read the map again, or for 1st time.
there are bases on Infinity that are less then 5 miles apart, majority are within 15. some bases i can just about sit on 1 field and shell the other with a tank.
lol bases not close.
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sure whels, there may be a few close but they must be few because I can't recall seeing two airfields 5 miles apart. Infinity fields are far apart, more irritating than pizza which theses days seems like one of the better maps.
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I agree the mentality in AH has gotten to the point,that I can only stomach it for short periods of time..cancelled account,and on R and R here.
The three country thing is a poor idea,and I concur with the others that a two sided war would work better.That isn't going to happen because the dropping of a Bish Nit Rook country is unthinkable.
Raising the price is a great idea.Get rid of the unskilled lemmings,and run a few guys back to War Birds, as they sure could use the help.Sixty players when I checked the other night.
Yes, I been thinking of going back to War Birds,but I hate joining a sinking ship.
I don't believe anything will happen to change the situation,and come to think of it,all flight sims I flew since ICI's first effort,have been in the same predicament.
Hats off to the gents that can handle the map fiasco,channel one half wits,milk runners,LaLaNikSpitPonyP40 dweebs,steal killers,smack talking,lemmings etc.
If we are holding out for AH updates to fix everything,I think we are only fooling ourselves!
Dobe
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Originally posted by whels
ud better go read the map again, or for 1st time.
there are bases on Infinity that are less then 5 miles apart, majority are within 15. some bases i can just about sit on 1 field and shell the other with a tank.
lol bases not close.
Oh .. OK whels ... I'll go look again ... I don't have much time in on this map ... ;)
Yes, there are some fields that are close together .. feel better ... but the majority aren't. I spend most of the past few days flying at least a sector or sector and a-half to attack bases hoping to get a rise out of someone to come on up and fight.
The comparision I was making was in reference to FesterMA.
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"Raising the price is a great idea.Get rid of the unskilled lemmings,and run a few guys back to War Birds ...
Yeah ... thats the solution.
What's the ceiling price that will eliminate those that bother you?
Are you going to be the one that decides who is an unskilled lemming ? Lets see your list ... you must have one ... right ?
Which War Bird guys get the boot ? Start naming some names.
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Ya know......it MAY not be the size of the Map. (Notice the word may)......logged onto Trinity at 3:10PM...looked at Map.
Noticed one lousy sector....believe was 214 that had 3 huge red
dar bars in surrounding grids....two huge green ones.
Sporadic fights in some other areas...but few.
Noticed also in last month or so...lotta new names on text buffer.
Maybe the first person shooter mob has arrived.
Scenerio....log on...see map...go to defend base...go to tower, sit
in tower.....notice suicide Jabos de ack fiield...cuss at self for not
jumping into plane to get 20 prox kills as they auger into the tarmac. Ack is gone....they show up again to vulch anyone trying
to raise their gear. The testically challenged have finally arrived
from other games!
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They been here. Scenario for the last year. They even got there own squads where they slam into the ground in unison, 9typh for example. Theres guys from there you can sit in a cv and set your watch by em,kill him with the 5in go out for exactly 5min hop back in and watch him suicide auger again. Fields are far apart,takes forever to get to a fight, you get there its a gangbang, dont matter in whose favor they both suck. Or you fly 1/2 hour to get to the dang field and no one ups, maybe a pony will come along at 30k and then proceed to make a few limp wristed BnZ sprays before running to ack.
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Slapshot
1. price $24.95,same as Warbirds
2. Don't keep a list it,just call it as I see it,and many others agree with me.
3. I'm not booting guys back to Warbirds.Warbirds once had many excellent pilots,that came here because they gave up on Warbirds.Make the price the same,and they'll go back.
4. All I'm doing is agreeing with others,that the game has become boring,unexiciting,aggravating etc.While HTC has become complacent to the players suggestions and needs.
5. You have every right to disagree with me,and I respect your opinion,and your right to have it.
Dobe
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Originally posted by Dobe
Slapshot
4. All I'm doing is agreeing with others,that the game has become boring,unexiciting,aggravating etc.While HTC has become complacent to the players suggestions and needs.
Dobe
the game is basically the same as it ever was. players make the gameplay what it is. you (generic) changed, not the game. you (generic) stood by while the "game" - altho' you really should say, "gameplay" - supposedly has degraded. gameplay has "degraded" because not enough so-called vets have pulled their load in educamacting noobs on the finer points of the game/play. too many stood idly by or led by mediocre example. motives for signing up are as diverse as the player population. that doesn't mean those motives have only one path to fullfillment.
what have you done to try and reverse the tide of "dweebery" ? have you tried edumacating the "dweebs"? I have. I've had some success on a case by case basis.
subscription $$ is not the problem/answer. plenty of dweebs and bungholes at $30 as there are at $15. $$$ does not equal class or experience.
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First:
There's no such thing as a P40 dweeb. Other than the silly site of seeing a pilot try to get in to that small cockpit with the HUGE balls..
Second:
"Make the price the same,and they'll go back"
Price has nothing to do with it.
The vast majority that landed here from WB aren't twelve, and don't live on an allowence..
Price isn't why they left.
The reason "why" they left is alive and well. It continues.
But price isn't part of that equation.
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and because nopoop is slacking....
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_150_1067007634.jpg)
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p40 dweeb....hehe thought I'd get a few bites with that one.
places rod and reel back in holder!
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Originally posted by beet1e
I agree with you, Anton, and I would have logged as well. It seems to happen when the fields are too close together such that one side can maintain a conveyor belt effect. You can never get anywhere even if you kill the first 4-5 cons coming in because by the time you've killed the fifth, #1 is right back at you and may have replaced his former ride with a higher performance plane and is in for the grudge match - and wants your arse.
The whole problem has its roots in the payment plan for AH. With a flat rate game working out at only 50 cents a day, it's going to attract all the gamey tardz who have no interest in WW2, but instead want nothing more than to pummel a fire button and watch stuff go BOOM every 5 seconds. Some even measure their "skill" on that basis. :lol
With adequate spacing of fields, the tardz quickly get bored of having to fly for more than 5 minutes to get back to where they were right before their last suicide, and either log off themselves, or go to the BBS to whine about the map, or go to the DA which is where they belong in the first place.
Now I've seen everything. One of the biggest Queens of the hordes is complaining about the hordes. Honestly beet1e, if it wasn't for the hordes, do you actually think you'd get a kill?
Raising the price is just as stupid as any of your previous arguments.
And to blame this on map design is sheer nonsense. The horde mentality has always been a part of life in any PvP online game and will always be as soon as people find out it's the easiest way to get kills. But you already knew that.
ack-ack
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Thanks Shane. Someones always there when I slip..
I forgot my duty..
Wheres that lag of yours, I'll shine it up..
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Now I've seen everything. One of the biggest Queens of the hordes is complaining about the hordes. Honestly beet1e, if it wasn't for the hordes, do you actually think you'd get a kill?
Raising the price is just as stupid as any of your previous arguments.
And to blame this on map design is sheer nonsense. The horde mentality has always been a part of life in any PvP online game and will always be as soon as people find out it's the easiest way to get kills. But you already knew that.
ack-ack
You're wrong, and I've got the films to prove that you're wrong. But I won't post them because I don't care what you think. You're still bitter because I shot your whiny arse when you came into a base on your own thinking you could kill everything in sight. Brave, but incredibly stupid.
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Originally posted by beet1e
You're still bitter because I shot your whiny arse when you came into a base on your own thinking you could kill everything in sight. Brave, but incredibly stupid.
But Beet1e don't you see, that's fun situation win or lose.
Fun.
I lose my bellybutton far more than Ack-ack does.
And I'd venture to say that's "what" the majority of us so called quakers ( your term ) are all about.
Fun.
You kill everyone in that circumstance, you get to see the Queens undies..
With that result, I'm still undecided..
But hey, they might be pretty..
So I'll continue to give it a go.
For if nothing else, for the Queen.
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close bases do nothing but move the gangbangs over the bases:
(http://www.dbstaines.com/images/gangbang.gif)
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Todd, you the Same Todd that used to fly in AW when it was on AOHELL under the same handle with Douce101, Wrace, Rawhide, 6guns,Ken1 and a host of others and the old *Iron Dogs*?
I'm a different Todd. I went by DeadF, +Dead, and Cilk (among others) in the AOL days.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Batz
"Air Combat Arena" with no trappings of the silly war winning and small maps laid out to facilitate the fight. Rotate fighters based on year but have all the planes available to both sides.
Or just put in the original beta setup. THAT was fun.
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Originally posted by Mini D
close bases do nothing but move the gangbangs over the bases:
Yes indeed. And some people measure their skill in terms of kills per hour. On closer analysis, I came to realise that those high k/h scores were being padded out by fights over bases. If our highly skilled player were to have killed everything in sight, then that ought to be the end of it. The fact that the slaughter continues in order for some of those high k/h values to be possible means that there has to be a ready supply of cons in order to keep those kills coming. As you say, it smacks of combat near or even overhead the bases, and/or a vulchfest.
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It is a strange phenomenon.
Tonight I saw, nearly all rooks hitting undefended bish bases, while nearly all knits were hitting undefended rook bases, and presumably the bish were hitting undefended knit bases.
I have come to this conclusion. Most folks don't want to actually have to fight another human. Killing the buildings is enough fun for them.
I can't imagine that. Ever since I found out you could fight other "real" people with hornet for the amiga, that's what I wanted to do. I could not afford WB and hadn't heard of AW when I found FA 1.0. There was no base capture. Just a crap load of fights. Hell, I don't think we had bombs until 2.0.
I then found AH. Loved it / hated it. It was a HUGE improvement FM and graphics wise. I couldn't buy a kill. I could, though, roll a heavy 38 off a1(10k) and auger into the closest enemy hangars. I did that alot in the beginning. It's was easier pill to swallow than have some jackhole kick my bellybutton with some ACM.
...anyway, doesn't matter. I just find it strange.
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beetle... the reason you never understood it then or now is because you don't do it. The far apart fields cause fights over the bases the close fields cause fights out awayu from the fields. The guys with high kill per hour go to the fight... there is never enough fight coming to you unless you are about to be swamped and that doesn't last long...
close bases allow yu to go to the cons field and either have the fight mid way, or drag and kill those dumb enough to not want to leave their field... the defenders get bored with not getting killed and can't resist coming out ofter big fat low blue planes.
close bases allow the timid newbies and strat sissies to clump up and feel safe leaving home.. the real fights in close fields happen near the bases about a third of the way.... there is a steady stream tho, as you say. They feel they will do better next time and the strat sissies think everyone is trying to take the base.
far bases just make everyone shiver under their bunks when not organizing huge 'missuns' to take undefended bases.
lazs
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Originally posted by Mini D
close bases do nothing but move the gangbangs over the bases:
(http://www.dbstaines.com/images/gangbang.gif)
Depends upon who is looking at the map ...
I see alot of different types of "action" going on ... not just gangbangs and that is what this map is all about ... constant action. This picture is also a reflection of what we see on every map ... not exclusive only to FesterMA.
I believe that it was Fester intention to allow the "gangs" to come in, and resistance can launch from a closer field near the "gang" to try a ward them off.
If the base is captured, they had better defend it because a counter-attack from a nearby base could take it back just as quickly. Not quite as possible on any other map. With this, the rolling "gang" is not so effective.
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"I have come to this conclusion. Most folks don't want to actually have to fight another human. Killing the buildings is enough fun for them. "
Furious ... in a sober and lucid moment speaks volumes of truth.
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Originally posted by lazs2
this is allways the case on the big maps with the fields too far apart.. everyone is afraid to get too far from home so they go in mobs. close fields prevent this.
lazs
I agree.
Also, with the fields far apart, its easier to see a conveyor belt since its stretched farther out.
You also have to remember that a lot of squads have their group nights on Saturday and Sunday nights, so if you see a cluster of guys together, its a pretty safe bet that its either a squad or a mission.
The easiest way to stop a mob is to avoid them as they fly away, then kill the fuel at the field they launched from. Or kill the troops. Then, fly NOE towards the mob's target and kill the goon. Eventually the mob will have to land (assuming they don't get killed over the target base). As they rtb, you catch them low on gas and fuel.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I'm a different Todd. I went by DeadF, +Dead, and Cilk (among others) in the AOL days.
-- Todd/Leviathn
You were Cilk?
Now I find out.
After all these years.
- oldman
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Personally, I dont see where base distance has anything to do with it. Its always the same, near or far. You either fly with a group and gangbang the enemy...or you get gangbanged. I have not played much lately myself. I am bored with base capture, bored with GV's, bored with furballs. I want something a bit more "equal"...which probably means me and a few friendlies in a fight for airspace with a similar group of unskilled noobs. (that was a joke....sort of):p
I know there has been some mention before of "planned" furballs. Did this ever pan out? two sides agreeing on a location and just fighting for fun...no strat, no caps, no vulches just having at it between 2 bases?
To be honest there are a few individuals in AH who annoy the heck out of me, who seem to live for the vulch or bounce. or the gangbang. Mostly because they keep shooting me down without the fun of making a fight out of it. They should know by now, that they dont need to be sneaky to shoot me down....I rarely win a fight.
Had some fun last night, upping out of 93 and having a small fairly equal fight that was steady for about an hour...then 93 got porked. MEF4UD shot me down a few times, had some decent scrapes with others, and re-upped a lot. This situation is what I remember from my early days (not so long ago, actually) and is what made me want to play. Now, I have a hard time finding such situations. It almost makes me want to go a-porkin myself...just to get even. Could this be a prevelant line of thought and why the gameplay is what it is?
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For those who missed the point:
Base distance has no bearing on Gangbanging.
As the screenshot of FestersFurball clearly shows. (Thnx to MiniD)
It is the sheep mentality. Follow Green Bar... Follow Green Bar.
Not many players... including the majority of players that think they are aces.. will not up to defend a base
(S! to those few players with balls that do)
It is as simple as that.
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I see a lot more options on even dejas screenshot than i do 95% of the time on infinity or pizza....
with close bases you don't have to fight your way home or be gangbanged when you finally get close to the "action" after a two sector flight only to find out that the "action" is ten guys at 15k circling their base waiting for anyone to come all the way over to them or.... a smoking fuelless base with nothing but a dozen osties.
close bases promote action... far bases promote gang banging and timidity.... it is as simple as that.
lazs
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Originally posted by Oldman731
You were Cilk?
Now I find out.
After all these years.
LOL Sorry, I thought it was common knowledge among people I flew with way back when. Though I bet things make a lot more sense now when you think about them.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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You guys better hope HTC doesn't raise the price very much, or one of your easier kills (me) is outta here. Couple my ISP monthly fee with the monthly dues for this game, and it's not such a cheap game anymore.
Slim(target sleeve)03
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Lazs!
Originally posted by lazs2
beetle... the reason you never understood it then or now is because you don't do it.
:lol I've been trying to tell YOU that for a couple of years now!
The reason you don't understand the strat game is because you don't do it. The reason you don't understand buffs is because you don't fly them. The reason you don't see the need for GVs, PT boats, field guns, jabo bombing, goon/M3 runs to resupply or drop troops, Shore Battery gun to destroy the CV... is because you're not interested. Your not interested in 60% of the maps either. You whine like hell about Pizza, Big Isles and Trinity. Face it: You're simply playing one small part of a subset of the game. No wonder you are bored with it. I on the other hand have done sorties in all the above mentioned vehicles and guns. Geez, it's like trying to introduce someone to a new type of food - "I've never tried it because I don't like it!" far bases just make everyone shiver under their bunks when not organizing huge 'missuns' to take undefended bases.
That part is BS - no further comment required.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Depends upon who is looking at the map ...
I see alot of different types of "action" going on ... not just gangbangs and that is what this map is all about ... constant action. This picture is also a reflection of what we see on every map ... not exclusive only to FesterMA.
I never said it wasn't representative of all maps. Someone else was commenting that this didn't happen on fester's map. It does.I believe that it was Fester intention to allow the "gangs" to come in, and resistance can launch from a closer field near the "gang" to try a ward them off.
Oh... we can guess intentions all we want. They are irrelevant. What you end up with is what matters. The map has so many "furballs" occuring over fields that it isn't even funny. What's even less funny is the same guys refer to those "furballs" as "gang-bangs" on any other map. When "closer fights" ends up being synonymous with "fights at the base" the real point is being missed. You end up having to fly farther to get to the fight anyways. Once again, moving the fights away from the bases is the solution... making the bases the objective should not be. Fester's map highlights that people really want to just be in a position where easy kills are widely available... all else be damned.If the base is captured, they had better defend it because a counter-attack from a nearby base could take it back just as quickly. Not quite as possible on any other map. With this, the rolling "gang" is not so effective.
BS... nobody cares about losing bases on this map or any other. the "rolling base" gang is just as active... it's just more of a hamster wheel. As a result... any type of map movement is virtually impossible on fester's map unless there's one hell of a numbers advantage or 2 courntries are primarily crushing the 3rd.
Fester's map has not solved any of the problems in game play no matter how much those who insisted it would now insist it does. It's even added a few more. It's quite simply the fact that the real game play problems are not map related as much as people insist they are. The real problem is that a ton of new people have hopped into the game and instead of learning pilot skills, they prefer to hide in mobs learning nothing. I've never seen so many shoot for so long and not hit anything. I've never seen so many chase one con in my life (15 after 1 the other day). I've never seen 50 friendlies all huddled around one base across the whole front before.
Oh well... the game doesn't grow without an influx of newbies. It's just sad that there's one hell of a growing pain going on right now.
MiniD
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I don't like the horde mentality one bit but I don't think that "raising the price" will effect it at all.
I was here in the late beta and then in the opening $30 a month days of HTC but I was not here every month and was absent from it for a good long stretch because $30 a month adds up to a good chunk of dollars in a year. But quite honestly there is a huge difference in $360 a year versus $180 a year. For me if the price goes up then I will most likely make my way to another game somewhere. There are a couple of choices at the moment but none that I really like playing like this game. While I can afford a price increase; I would be taking away from one area to support another. In my case the money I have saved from not playing under Warbirds pricing has gone a long way toward my first son's college fund. Call me cheap or whatever just quit *****ing and do something constructive about the problem.
Here is some news for you price raising guys. Fighter Ace 3.x just raised their price from $9.95 to $14.95 a month "to match the industry standard". The last time I checked that game out there were about as many people playing in the "Intermediate" and "Advanced" areas as there were on Warbirds. While quantity doesn't necessarily mean quality it does have a quality all its own. What the quote from Jaleco means is that they are chasing the standard that was set by HTC and followed by CRS and others in recent years. It also shows that they are upgrading their servers and such in hopes that they can bring in new customers and have a larger customer base in all their arenas.
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For me it's about engagements.
Fester's map is more engagements in far less time than BI or AKD and even the improved Trinity. YMMV.
The climbing/driving around on autopilot part holds no interest for me. Just a personal fault, I guess.
Bottom line is ALL the gameplay is still allowed on Fester's map. You can still do any/all the things you want/wish to do on it.
However, the other big maps, no matter how you slice it, offer less engagement opportunity due to distance between fields. This is even more of a problem if one wishes to fly the earlier/slower/shorter-ranged part of the plane set (a personal choice, of course).
So once again it comes down to that. Fester offers the same opportunities as the other big maps PLUS it is much more friendly to early/mid war type aircraft looking for engagements PLUS the shorter distances allow for more engagements for the engagment-centric (me ;)).
Seems to me that's good for all concerned. As opposed to BI, AKD and ITrin which are good for some but definitely not for others.
Dear Cod, please hurry HTC up with TOD. It's got to help one side or the other. I hope.
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and that is all it boils down too.... close fields allow all types of gameplay while far fields restrict choice and gameplay.
close fields benifiet all while far fields are only usefull to the enemies of fun.
lazs
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One more thing that I haven't cared for in AH ever...is the blasted three sided chess piece crap.
Get rid of the frigging chess piece war and make it a two sided affair or split the whole damn thing along country lines and introduce planes to fill out the planeset for each country.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Lazs! :lol I've been trying to tell YOU that for a couple of years now!
The reason you don't understand the strat game is because you don't do it. The reason you don't understand buffs is because you don't fly them. The reason you don't see the need for GVs, PT boats, field guns, jabo bombing, goon/M3 runs to resupply or drop troops, Shore Battery gun to destroy the CV... is because you're not interested. Your not interested in 60% of the maps either. You whine like hell about Pizza, Big Isles and Trinity. Face it: You're simply playing one small part of a subset of the game. No wonder you are bored with it. I on the other hand have done sorties in all the above mentioned vehicles and guns. Geez, it's like trying to introduce someone to a new type of food - "I've never tried it because I don't like it!" That part is BS - no further comment required.
Well....you admit you have not done the furballing, yet you seem to tell us all about how it is silly and the incorrect way to play....I have done your style of play for years and furballing, yet you seem to think you have a more balanced dictate for gameplay.
Bottomline, neither way is incorrect...both camps should play maps which allow both styles of gameplay so that everyone can have fun...not just you and your's Beet....kinda selfish of you if you disagree, don't you think?
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I never said it wasn't representative of all maps. Someone else was commenting that this didn't happen on fester's map. It does.
Agree ... no map can prevent this occurence.
Oh... we can guess intentions all we want. They are irrelevant. What you end up with is what matters. The map has so many "furballs" occuring over fields that it isn't even funny. What's even less funny is the same guys refer to those "furballs" as "gang-bangs" on any other map. When "closer fights" ends up being synonymous with "fights at the base" the real point is being missed. You end up having to fly farther to get to the fight anyways. Once again, moving the fights away from the bases is the solution... making the bases the objective should not be. Fester's map highlights that people really want to just be in a position where easy kills are widely available... all else be damned.
[/B]
Agree .. except that I don't end up flying farther (in most cases) to get back into the fight ... remember fields are close together so I am not flying 1 1/2 to 2 sectors to get back.
BS... nobody cares about losing bases on this map or any other. the "rolling base" gang is just as active... it's just more of a hamster wheel. As a result... any type of map movement is virtually impossible on fester's map unless there's one hell of a numbers advantage or 2 courntries are primarily crushing the 3rd.
[/B]
I am surprised Mini ... you usually dont paint with such a wide brush. "Nobody" cares ... If nobody cared then how do these maps get reset or better yet .. not get reset. Just this past weekend, the nits were in the hole big time and somehow managed to dig themselves out of the hole. If "nobody" cared, then Trinity would have been reset very quicky. All countries have their "Generals" barking out on country channel when fields are lost.
Fester's map has not solved any of the problems in game play no matter how much those who insisted it would now insist it does. It's even added a few more. It's quite simply the fact that the real game play problems are not map related as much as people insist they are. The real problem is that a ton of new people have hopped into the game and instead of learning pilot skills, they prefer to hide in mobs learning nothing. I've never seen so many shoot for so long and not hit anything. I've never seen so many chase one con in my life (15 after 1 the other day). I've never seen 50 friendlies all huddled around one base across the whole front before.
Oh well... the game doesn't grow without an influx of newbies. It's just sad that there's one hell of a growing pain going on right now.
No FesterMA has not solved the game play problem. At least it was an attempt and the newly perceived problems I think have provided a different taste of gameplay, which in itself has been a refreshing change from the constant that we have been use to. Again, its not the "do-all and end-all" ... its just new.
It's quite simply the fact that the real game play problems are not map related as much as people insist they are. The real problem is that a ton of new people have hopped into the game and instead of learning pilot skills, they prefer to hide in mobs learning nothing. I've never seen so many shoot for so long and not hit anything. I've never seen so many chase one con in my life (15 after 1 the other day). I've never seen 50 friendlies all huddled around one base across the whole front before.
Oh well... the game doesn't grow without an influx of newbies. It's just sad that there's one hell of a growing pain going on right now.[/B]
You are ABSOLUTLY right.
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You don't have to fly 1 1/2 sectors to GET TO A BASE. But you still have to fly 3/4 of a sector to get to a fight AT A BASE. The fights are not closer... the bases are.
I am surprised Mini ... you usually dont paint with such a wide brush. "Nobody" cares ... If nobody cared then how do these maps get reset or better yet .. not get reset. Just this past weekend, the nits were in the hole big time and somehow managed to dig themselves out of the hole. If "nobody" cared, then Trinity would have been reset very quicky. All countries have their "Generals" barking out on country channel when fields are lost.
Virtually every "recovery" is a direct result of a country chosing to organize offense, not defense. There is no point in defending bases. That is my generalization. I've always said it and will continue to say it. The country that loses is the one that's being overwhelmed or stops trying to take bases. Defense in AH is futile at best. Gameplay reflects that to the nth degree.
MiniD
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You don't have to fly 1 1/2 sectors to GET TO A BASE. But you still have to fly 3/4 of a sector to get to a fight AT A BASE. The fights are not closer... the bases are.
I'll chalk this up to semantics.
Virtually every "recovery" is a direct result of a country chosing to organize offense, not defense. There is no point in defending bases. That is my generalization. I've always said it and will continue to say it. The country that loses is the one that's being overwhelmed or stops trying to take bases. Defense in AH is futile at best. Gameplay reflects that to the nth degree.
Your right and your wrong from my standpoint.
Every "recovery" is a result of offense, but only after a successful defense has been executed. Again, this past weekend, the nits put up a hell of a defense in the west to stem the flow and at some point, when the horde got discouraged cause they weren't steamrolling anymore, small pockets of nits went on the offense and started taking back some of the homeland rear bases. This offense, with a stauch defense, is what saved the nits from the reset.
Once the steamroller starts moving, nothing but a dogged defense will stem the flow until an opposing offense can be established.
I myself prefer base defense because, in my experience, there will always be at least one or two (maybe more) that feel the need to eliminate my presence because the "goon" is on the way, and the fight(s) ensue.
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Originally posted by Dobe
Raising the price is a great idea.Get rid of the unskilled lemmings
Dobe
Yes... Thats the Solution..
Afterall, everyone knows only RICH people are good players.
OK, maybe thats a bit of sarcasm, But I truely see no corilation between anual income/disposable income and the level of skill, or the quality of player one is.
Ill be there are plenty of good players than dont make much over a living wage.
Do you think if the Price was raised to $75 a month that only good players would remain, and if you went to $150 even better people would play?
Sorry, Price isnt the problem
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Tonight I saw, nearly all rooks hitting undefended bish bases, while nearly all knits were hitting undefended rook bases, and presumably the bish were hitting undefended knit bases.
It's completely accurate. I was whining on CH1 about this last night.
Each country had a huge mass of fighter located in an undefended sector. When that base was vulched/taken, they moved on to the next one. All 3 sides were doing this. I'm left utterly baffled that people could actually enjoy destroying static, dumb targets. I'm confounded; simply cannot begin to fathom how this could be fun.
When I enter the MA, I look for the biggest furball and roll. If the furball is about even, I'll up a P40, F6F, even a P38 lately. If I can find a fight where we are outnumbered, I'll roll the pony.
What do these "horde" people think? Do they hit the MA and think, " Hmmm let me find the biggest pile of friendlies, I hope there are no enemies in the air! Hmmm where is the steamroll/vulch?" ?
I just can't understand how one could enjoy this.
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I'm not sure you can lay it all on the players either.
After all the game is structured either deliberately or inadvertently to reward certain behaviors.
The fuel destruction/resupply situation is a good example. Ever since the resupply became inordinately more time consuming than destruction of the fuel, "fuel porking" has become an issue. When one guy can reduce a small field to 25% in two passes (and yes, there's film of this being accomplished in the MA at defended bases) but it then requires something like 7 goon sorties to just get it back to 50% SOMETHING is way out of balance.
This is not a "player problem", it's a programming problem. If they'd make resupply reasonable, it'd help alleviate the behavior problem.
In fact, since the only REAL key factor in base capture is TROOPS, programming could be altered to emphasize killing barracks and fuel could pretty much be made a non-factor.
After all, you REALLY want to hold your bases? Destroy the enemies ability to drop troops on your fields.
Damaging fuel merely lessens the enemies ability to fight back. Which is fine if you don't like fighting and want to roll unopposed over the opposition.
But if you're looking for a good fight, let 'em have fuel.
You want to hold your bases? Destroy their troop capability.
I'd like to see something tried out in the programming area that deals with this aspect. Give it a month or two and see if "gameplay" improves.
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Originally posted by Rude
Well....you admit you have not done the furballing, yet you seem to tell us all about how it is silly and the incorrect way to play....I have done your style of play for years and furballing, yet you seem to think you have a more balanced dictate for gameplay.
Bottomline, neither way is incorrect...both camps should play maps which allow both styles of gameplay so that everyone can have fun...not just you and your's Beet....kinda selfish of you if you disagree, don't you think?
Rude, you are wrong. I have done a crapload of furballing - in the furballer's favourite plane, the Spit V. That's how I started out - in WB in 1998. OK, different game, but a simulation of the same thing - WW2 combat. Just as you "did my style of play for years", I did yours. We have each made our respective decisions on which we each prefer.
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Steve,
Both MiniD and Shane have hit upon, and what I have begun to notice also, is the influx of new players to the game.
Being a card carrying member of the "newbie club" two years ago, flying with the crowd is a natural thing ... safety in numbers.
Its the "lemming/gangbang/pork-n-auger" crowd that is teaching the new people that flying this way is ok and acceptable and that they should avoid all conflicts at any cost.
After all ... avoiding fights to blow up all the fuel along with any other staionary object and then auger into the ground is what this game is all about. Where have you been !?!?!?!
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Its the "lemming/gangbang/pork-n-auger" crowd that is teaching the new people that flying this way is ok and acceptable and that they should avoid all conflicts at any cost.
No, I think you give newbies less credit than is their due. Any person of reasonable intelligence--whether newbie or not--can decline to join their gangbanging brethren. And those who gangbang will do so whether it is "acceptable" or not. The problem is that some folks enjoy tallying kills more than flying and fighting planes. Hence Air Quake.
At least gangbangs I can see some plausibly rational explanation for. In fact they sometimes arise from pure motives, like if several people want to help a struggling countryman and head in all at the same time. What I don't understand though is pork/auger, or even worse spawn-vulch/auger. WTF. Is it for score or something?? Or just to see stuff blow up? I don't know how the score or perk system works, but shouldn't there be an extreme score penalty for death? Like almost no points issued if dead? Maybe that would eliminate such nonsense, if the scoring system is indeed what causes these phenomena.
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Originally posted by Steve
Each country had a huge mass of fighter located in an undefended sector. When that base was vulched/taken, they moved on to the next one. All 3 sides were doing this. I'm left utterly baffled that people could actually enjoy destroying static, dumb targets. I'm confounded; simply cannot begin to fathom how this could be fun.
When I enter the MA, I look for the biggest furball and roll. If the furball is about even, I'll up a P40, F6F, even a P38 lately. If I can find a fight where we are outnumbered, I'll roll the pony.
What do these "horde" people think? Do they hit the MA and think, " Hmmm let me find the biggest pile of friendlies, I hope there are no enemies in the air! Hmmm where is the steamroll/vulch?" ?
I just can't understand how one could enjoy this.
This is exactly the same style/way of flying that was encouraged and supposedly enjoyed by many people in Fighter Ace 2 when I played that game. Only there you had 5 countries on a map sliced up like a pie. I had a blast playing as a GE (German country member) and shooting down all those guys playing for what we called the "Green Virus" (GB or Great Britain) and the "Red Horde" (SU or Soviet Union). But you still primarily had 90% of your players going after undefended or very low defender numbers versus large inbound forces.
I don't know the way to cure it but I really think that the three sided maps do nothing but help a horde/squadron/mass of pork&auger guys to go after that undefended area. If we can get the ear of HT I would say disable aircraft for one country and force everyone to play for one or the other and see how it works. For the people who would whine and complain about not flying Knight/Bish/Rook whatever...well set it up on a rotation where the country who was down last map was active after the reset and whoever won the map was the inactive country. Is it absolutely necessary to have three "countries" in the game? If not then why do we have it that way? If someone with better knowledge of the game and mapmaking can speak on this please do. Maybe if we had plane specific factories that would be destroyed we could influence gameplay there as well. Oh well this is all just speculation anyway.
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Hey Anton,
Do you have this problem on the Fester map?
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Both MiniD and Shane have hit upon, and what I have begun to notice also, is the influx of new players to the game.
I think you are right... in others words miniD and Shane are right that this could be part of the problem.
I was a bit conflicted when I read this. I felt a bit guilty for not teaching more noobs. Conversely, I'm not certain I'm qualified to teach people. I've dueled Shane and Wldthing in the DA several times, with the same result almost every time: Steve shot down.(Thanks dudes, it's always a blast, even though I lose)
OTOH I understand that success in the MA has as much to do w/ SA and decision making(if I'm good at anything in the game, its' these two), than it does w/ ACM. When a guy of the caliber of Wldthing, Shane, Todd, and their ilk tells me I'm good(ACM wise) maybe I'll teach some noobs. :)
I've had noobs ride along w/ me and they all pretty much say the same thing: I have a knack for being in the right place at the right time, and I use E well... I don't think I've ever blown anyone away w/ any mind boggling ACM... lol
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Raise the price to 100.00/month....that will make folks fight.
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There IS A WHOLE LOT OF NEWGUYS.
The list tonight went on and on.
Thats GOOD.
Continue.
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Been busy for last few days, not much BBS time. Any rate, at this time I havent noticed the horde mentality on Fester MA, I assume only because it's still relatively new map & people havent slipped into the comfy routine yet.
I want to point out that missions are not a horde IMO. But a mission that the other side fails to respond to, can QUICKLY turn into a horde. Once a mission turns into a horde its real hard to get help fighting those 30 guys cause no one wants to die.
I once entertained the concept of having 2 types of AH accounts, A base price for everyone, & make available a "premium arena" for those that felt all the "kids" were bringing gameplay down. That Idea was met with lotta bad responses from the General Public of AH. So I dropped it.
I gotta get to work now, more later-
Anton
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The fact that this thread exists at all, has been read by so many and has elicited so many responses – many from seasoned flightsomdom vets – demonstrates that many experienced virtual pilots are thoroughly burned out by the state of AH-MA gameplay as it exists today. Some of us deplore the hordes; others detest all the suiciding; fuel porkers get little respect from anyone at all; some are ground down by the MA methodology of grabbing the best plane for the job, which is often the fastest/strongest/has most powerful guns/max. agility etc. How has all this come about? Maybe it’s about incentives.
I was putzing around all over the place on my debut in WB. Two guys came to my aid – one was called –farm-, and the other was a Swedish guy called –save- who I later met in person. The help I got from those and other guys could not have been better. Later as we moved away from laser gunnery, and had to get in closer than 300 yards to get kills, a trainer called ==sd== went out of his way to re-educate me. Subscription costs: The mere mortals paid $2/hour but the =trainers= got free flying. Thus, there was an incentive to improve one’s skills because then you could become a trainer and not have to pay! This would be beneficial on two counts: The trainer got free flying and newbies were able to learn ACM and other skills from those trainers. Some of those newbies would go on to become trainers themselves in the fullness of time, and train a new generation of newbies. A side benefit was that there were many more trainer applicants than available slots, so it was competitive, and standards were high. The training programme worked well. In the game, suiciding was discouraged. There were no points awarded for kills per hour, but triple points for landing kills and/or strat targets destroyed. But to have a chance of returning to base, you had to develop a good degree of skill. For their free flying privileges, the trainers were expected to put in some hours on a regular basis at the Training Arena, helping newbies. This helped to raise the standard of flying in the MA, and make the game more enjoyable for all.
Now compare that with Aces High. It’s only 50 cents a day so there is no real scope for offering financial incentives for people to become trainers. And because of that, there is no yardstick of skill to work towards. The Training Arena is a joke. A WB guy I know told me that he tried AH once – the TA – and all that happened was that one a-hole (who was not even a trainer himself) used my friend as his drone. After being shot up for the fourth or fifth time, my friend realised he was learning nothing and left, never to return. More bad publicity for AH at the boozer that night… What else? Look back to the reception I enjoyed at Brand-W. Guys going out of their way to be helpful. What happens in AH? All too often, a newbie pilot will be told to try Alt+F4. Oh-ho-ho-ho, chortle the seasoned vets when someone actually falls for it… but how do you think the newbie feels about that? I know how I’d feel. If those a-holes get their jollies from rubbing my nose in it, I know how I can fix them. I’ll pork their fuel!! And who can blame them? They’ve probably had a piss-poor reception into the game, and no proper training. As a result, they have no skills, but can get back at the Alt+F4 advocates by porking their fuel, and by steamrollering their front line bases in a series of pork-n-auger missuns.
AH in the MA has become a game for egocentrics; a “ME FIRST” game. Often no 6-calls. No cooperation, people on the same side working against each other. Sure, there’s no AH rule book, but that sort of behaviour is not the kind of thing that makes you want to come back. Why is it like that? Because there’s no incentive to work together, no incentive to develop new skills – why bother to learn about the 109F4 when there’s an LA7 available at every field? :rolleyes: Why bother to land kills? Why bother to learn ACM? – just pork the fuel at your opponents’ field to stop them from getting alt, then steamroller it. No incentive to do anything different. It doesn't matter if you get killed; your shiny new uberplane of choice is only a mouseclick away...
There needs to be a new system of incentives. The objectives in the game need to be rewarded differently. Right now, we see guys scoring lots of points for diving in on a field in his P51, making about 3-4 passes vulching/shooting anything that moves, and when his E runs out augering in a blaze of glory. Is this the kind of game any of us wants to see?
There are at least two other threads besides this one on Page 1 of General Discussion, in which the originators bemoan the state of AH gameplay. We’ve laughed at the newbies and told them to Alt+F4. They’ve been used as drones, and otherwise held to ridicule. And now there’s a price to be paid. That price is the current lamentable state of AH-MA gameplay.
Beet1e
PS – sorry about the wall-o-text :p
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and this kind of thoughtless behavior is precisely why the AH player base has grown to 600 in the MA a night from 90.
Sorry Beetle....your post is entirely to wishy washy....it smells of Socialism and hand holding....I want to fly with guys who work hard to achieve their skills, not change their diapers and sing them to sleep at night....sheesh man!!!
I do agree with you that some here ridicule new players online and that is uncalled for....personally, I'de boot em out for a month for being a ****. As for the alt F4 thingie...it's tradition.
Stop bein a momma's boy Beet....face facts....the current gameplay problems are you're fault.
Cyas Up!:)
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Think I'm gonna cry... (http://members.cox.net/dipstick/crying.gif)
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Pickin on newbies ain't the problem in AH. Giving them rights --freedom of flight and all the other stuff is whats biting us in the butt.
I agree with helping out whoever asks--but the requests are far and few between.
And porking fuel isn't strat--its just some folks peeing in other folks corn flakes so they can read all about it on the BBS the next day.
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I think it's the priorities and objectives that make AH what it is. All planes available to everyone in unlimited quantities. Lack of consequense if you die. And the land grabbing initiative makes it natural that players will concentrate on fighting buildings instead of each other.
For what it's worth, AirWarrior had a setup where country bases could only be killed for a half hour. And there was a fourth neutral country who's bases could be captured to gain strategic advantage.
Destruction of factories limited the availability of some war material, like fuel and Spitfires. The number of planes that could fly oiut of each field was limited and affected by strategic bombing. The type of planes available was based upon the theatre you were flying in (PAC ,EURO, WW1 or Korea). Sometimes the planes available were based upon a period of the war.
How about a few changes in AH2 MA?
If you die in a mission you can't take off from the same field (or same plane) for 15 minutes. This may reduce the Jabo, auger and repeat conveyor belt.
Bases are used for starting a mission and can only be destroyed for a period of time. The objective will be changed to elimination of resources by strategic missions instead of flag capturing. This might promote more realistic and organized game play instead of the non-combatant mud pounding to capture bases the quickest way possible.
Perhaps corridores to strategic targets will be created by base destruction. Organized missions with large bomber formations will become common. Fighters will be used for escorting the bombers and interception. It will become a common practice to send up scouts and interceptors to cover a corridore at larger distances. This should provide a lot more structure and realism to game play and provide the incentive for bomber pilots that they always asked for.
Then maybe in the center there can be a bunch of bases clustered together for dogfighting... a natural location where the countries merge and bases are more closely grouped.
I bet people here can come up with a lot more ideas also. The important thing is to be willing to abandon that which is and think outside the box.
grizzly
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Allow me to mention this as I duck under some furniture before getting pummeled for saying it: Air Warrior had a built in feature where if too many friendly planes were in a sector, airfields in that sector were closed< runs and slides under large oak desk>
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some good suggestions flowin-
but im relatively sure that most programmers at HTC are likely working on some other prject at this time.
As far as the growth of numbers in the game overall-
Seems worthy of note that advertising on history channel, as well as buying spots on very popular web based search engines may indeed have played a part in the swelling of player base.
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Originally posted by JB42
Allow me to mention this as I duck under some furniture before getting pummeled for saying it: Air Warrior had a built in feature where if too many friendly planes were in a sector, airfields in that sector were closed< runs and slides under large oak desk>
I'd forgotten that. It worked, too.
- oldman
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Originally posted by Oldman731
I'd forgotten that. It worked, too.
- oldman
The zone limit........ it was air field based normally set to a number between 15 and 30 in the FR maps.
Basically only a certain number of AC could be spawned from a base at any one time.
Up side
.....it spread combat over the map and stopped mega raids from one field.
..... missions were launched form "rear" fields to ensure access giving some warning
Down side
...........mega raids were planned using AW superior mission planner from multiple fields (against one field). Although not very often.
.......... A squad might take off to find some of its members were blocked due to zone limit.
.......... In AW it was erroniously linked to field fuel such that the zone limit reduced as the fuel was porked. ( minimum was 50% of the zone limit)
I think one option that could be used is a spawn queue. Ie only one player can spawn from a field at a time and the window is say 10 or even 15 secs a 20 man mission would then take 3 to 5 minutes to assemble on the runway (longer if other players were using the field) or become some what stretched out.
The problem with this is that it is server based and all HTC solutions are those that sit on the FE.
Edit............. if zone limit did indeed count the freindlies in the tower based radar range (per JB above) and limit take off accordingly then it could be FE based. Same pro's and cons apply
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ahh AW. I liked the game, but this game is much better. Remember the same stale maps? Remember the relaxed realism environs with hundreds of pilots and the FR arenas with 30 or 40? Or the great customer service we recieved from EA games? or the great "new flight model" near AW's end? I couldnt believe the p.o.s. flight model that was labeled "ultra-realism" or some such crap. I remember flying around for a looong time with many planes, none of use being able to reliable line up a shot because of the bouncing and yaw induced by overmodeling (or undermodeling?). As fun as AW was, I'll never ask for features like we had there.
Now, if ony I could get that terrain editor to not crash.....
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Originally posted by bockko
As fun as AW was, I'll never ask for features like we had there.
In all due respect, AW was a terrific game. It had it's drawbacks, but these were mostly the failure of Kesmai to keep it up to date. Certainly they tried, AW3 was the very first to offer 3-D terrain. AW was at that time the latest in technology, but this wained as they just didn't keep up with the fast advances in technology.
The flight model they produced was excellant. In it's beta form it had lots of problems, a lot like we're seeing in AH2 now (the original beta version of AH had an even worse FM). But in it's last revision before EA killed AW, it had become a terrific FM, which many didn't have a chance to experience.
There are many other features introduced in AW that were duplicated in WB, FA and AH also. This includes the customs that the player base have developed over the years. AW wasn't anywhere near the products of its competators in the last few years, but it had thrived for over 15 years at a time when online connections cost a fortune. In its AOL hayday, more players were in AW each night than all the other air combat sims combined have now... over 2000 on an average night.
AW was what many of the premier players of today cut their eye teeth on, including HiTech himself. And AW provided us with a rich heritage that we still enjoy today. Resist the fashionable criticism. AW couldn't handle it's success and became history, but it had a lot of good things going for it that might be usefull to us here and now. It doesn't make sense to close our eyes to the good things because of the mistakes they made.
grizzly
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Wow! Alot of great input/suggestions.
It seems to me that the current horde situation is likely equally contributed to by both players as well as game set-up.
But IMO the reality of the situation is that HTC is unlikely to spend much time doing any major revamp or setting tweak until after the release of AH2. And what I expect is that they will want to take some time to evaluate how AH2 is accepted befor they make such a decision.
So if i'm correct, what that leaves to improve our current game is US, the COMMUNITY. Now I know I have been a horses rear-end on more than 1 occasion, & it is very unlikely that I will stop with that tradition. But I also do alot to help: If an area I'm fighting in becomes to saturated with green guys I leave, If I see 2 countrymen on a con I USUALLY pull off, I give check6s to anyone I see that needs 1, I often train new people & help with command & radio controls, I will sprint to help a countrymen in need, I want to land every plane I lift- every vehicle as well, I fly several different planes from fighter to buff/c47. These are just a few off the top, & im not anywhere near to being a pillar of the community. But if more people decide to give a care, maybe we can improve things ourselves.
Anton
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We should add tittie-bars. That should keep most of the horde busy.
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more maps from fester would help a lot.
fester redoing the pizza and infinity and big isle would be fine.
lazs
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Originally posted by Drunky
We should add tittie-bars. That should keep most of the horde busy.
Nope that wouldn't help. As soon as the strat folks see people having fun they will find a way to "strat" it and put an end to any enjoyment folks would get from it. It's all about "impact" and if something is put in the game that cause folks to ignore the strat types they through a fit.
Boobies would become more hated then fighter hangers and fuel tanks.
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Batz....you're right on the subject of tittie bars. Strat guys
would Jabo the implant factory.
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Maybe they could turn up ALL auto-ack to the absolute maximum "KILL" setting on every map. Make so if you even look at a field from 3 miles away or less you die immediately. Make it have a max altitude of 20K. Make it totally effective against jabos in a dive too.
So, if you want to take a field, you have to have a huge buff raid above 20K come in and take out the ack first.
It might generate some fights outside of field capture, might make buffs important again.
And maybe not. But it'd sure be fun watching the ack splatter lemmnig fur all over the terrain (for a while anyway).
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It could have been a fun saturday evening, I had about a 3 hour window I could play AH.
I logged in & checked the map, found a few good looking battles & had a couple fun flights. It didnt take but maybe an hour for the whole map to turn into nothing but Mass numbered hordes on milk runs. Merely following the path of least resistance, not even bothering to use the power to take bases in a strategic matter, like zone bases or high bases or what have you. Almost as if when the last troop captures current baseeveryone looks for closest vacant base. Always careful to avoid any possible conflict with a red horde. Which of course the red horde is doing the EXACT same thing.
>WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! oh boy these buildings are SUCH a CHALLENGE!!!!
look how many bases we can capture & not protect! We must be truely the coolest!:rolleyes:
Absolutely disgusting.
Anton
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boy anton whine here and get in arguement with steve on 2.
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Originally posted by anton
It didnt take but maybe an hour for the whole map to turn into nothing but Mass numbered hordes on milk runs.
LOL, I know. Twas a litle wierd, as the night wore on basically on the whole map each base had a bunch of enemy dots over it. I happened to come across one of these milk runs, in a slightly-less-than-Co-E merge in a G10. I thought "here's my chance!" because I so rarely meet such a horde in a non-vulch situation. So I head in and things are looking good...the first few ponies do the split-s on merge thing trying for a HO, which is generally not good against a 109. So I'm past them but I keep heading in...finally I see a spit spli-essing on me hard, and the rest of the incomings are a ways off in front of me so I go for it. Pull up hard for the zoom knowing the Spit is mine, presenting a nice easy shot for the ponies behind me, whom I had not checked on well enough. Doh! An inglorious ending.
On a related note, it's amazing how many people will go for the HO even when they have the alt advantage or numbers advantage. Especially a split-s HO, throwing away the advantage.
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lol skull dont mess with me-
You are not even stable enuff to admit what your original handle was, I suspect that is because you are embarrased by some action you did under that name.
So don't think that just because you change your name & TRY to become a respected pilot in the game, you will sway me into thinking you are significant. :rofl
As for the game & the what it has turned into- I will have to say last nite was pretty dis-enchanting for me. I will need to find out if I can close my paid account, & keep my name for H2H use. Hopefully when HTC gets TOD up & running people will actualy choose to fight again & I can return either to TOD or classic.
Anton:cool:
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Originally posted by anton
lol skull dont mess with me-
You are not even stable enuff to admit what your original handle was, I suspect that is because you are embarrased by some action you did under that name.
So don't think that just because you change your name & TRY to become a respected pilot in the game, you will sway me into thinking you are significant. :rofl
If your thinking Skull is Dlambba? Not sure you are, but if you are, i have to say your wrong, heard Skull on vox and doesnt sound even close to Dlambba ;)
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AW couldn't handle it's success and became history, but it had a lot of good things going for it that might be usefull to us here and now. It doesn't make sense to close our eyes to the good things because of the mistakes they made.
Good point grizzly, IMO. i really enjoyed playing AW as i do playing AH now. sure it had its flaws and i believe AH is a better game, but it did have a few good things going for it that i dont see here, maybe HT didnt think the "good things" we seen were so good. my 2 cents.
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No I dont think its Dmouth, im not sure what name he used to be, & dlame wasnt the only unpopular personality to change names for fear of recognition. Really I couldnt care less about the guy, but he poked his head in on my thread.
Anton
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I had fun in MA tonite! Was not so many hordes. I noticed more smaller attacks that were in fact effective in producing captures. Also the smaller attacks provided for some actual air to air combat.:aok
I may have spoke to soon about canceling the account- but I still need to find out about keeping name for H2H if I close account. Does anyone happen to know from previous experience?
Anton
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Originally posted by anton
You are not even stable enuff to admit what your original handle was, I suspect that is because you are embarrased by some action you did under that name.
LOL! What cracks me up is that there IS a guy on this BBS called banana. :D He's OK though. :cool: I had fun in MA tonite! Was not so many hordes.
Well done, Anton. Pleased to hear it. I'm also fascinated (delighted, actually) to see that you had fun because there were not so many hordes.
I still think HTC should think about turning off bardar. In the old days, it helped people to find a fight. Nowadays, the red bar is the tool people use to avoid a fight, and the green bar is the tool they use to find a vulch. And that pretty much sums up AH gameplay these days. On the small maps with the fields too close at least.
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Originally posted by beet1e
I still think HTC should think about turning off bardar. In the old days, it helped people to find a fight. Nowadays, the red bar is the tool people use to avoid a fight, and the green bar is the tool they use to find a vulch.
Yes. Honor is a scarce commodity, unfortunately. :( Chute shooting, vulching, gangbanging, spawn camping, ditch shooting, filling flaming wreckage with lead in hopes of getting the "kill", turning on gunners on a tailless flaming bomber just out of spite. Are we humans or animals? No...I shouldn't insult animals after all. This isn't a real war, but even in real war when life was on the line the behavior could be more humane. Like I've heard that interceptors would leave a bomber alone when he put his gear down (signifying that he was ditching).
Not sure if your solution would work though. Some of us still actually use darbar to find even fights.
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Originally posted by mold
Are we humans or animals?
Dude, it's a computer game. Those are pixels you're "shooting," and as an extra-added bonus, the geek who was controlling them might get upset enough to post about the inhumanity of it all.
Guys like me vulch, gangbang, shoot your flaming corpse, spawn camp, you name it just to see guys like you squirm and whine about the lack of honor. The more you whine, the more it makes me want to stick it to you.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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That's right, it's a computer game. As such, there is no excuse for animalistic behavior. Whether it's a game or not, your behaviour is a reflection of your humanity.
Your subconcious shame makes you spring to the automatic defense and call me a "whiner". But that is not the case. What the hell, it's just a game to me.
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Originally posted by mold
That's right, it's a computer game. As such, there is no excuse for animalistic behavior. Whether it's a game or not, your behaviour is a reflection of your humanity.
[/b]
LOL! Yes, I'm inhumane because I enjoy making pinheads like you squirm in your seats over questions of honor in a computer game. I'm such a psychopath.
Your subconcious shame makes you spring to the automatic defense and call me a "whiner". But that is not the case. What the hell, it's just a game to me.
Obviously it's more than a game to you if you're bringing questions of "honor" and humanity into it. If it was just a game to you, you'd realize that it's just a bunch of geeks pushing pixels around a computer screen. We have nothing to truly gain or lose from the game (other than $14.95/month), so we all do what we consider fun to fill the time. Honor and humanity? Riiiiight.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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On a related note, it's amazing how many people will go for the HO even when they have the alt advantage or numbers advantage. Especially a split-s HO, throwing away the advantage.
Yeah, but if a guy is going to recklessly fly in front of you scissoring away why wouldn't you take the shot. Is it wrong to kill they guy if he flys in front of you? Unless you mean HOs on a merge. Then you are correct.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
We have nothing to truly gain or lose from the game (other than $14.95/month), so we all do what we consider fun to fill the time. Honor and humanity? Riiiiight.
It's only a game to me as well. But I try to behave with dignity whatever I am doing. You betrayed yourself in your post above: "The more you whine, the more it makes me want to stick it to you." Why are you so angered if this is only a game for you? The reason for your anger is that you do not like the way you behave--the cause of all insecurity and defensiveness.
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Originally posted by mars01
Yeah, but if a guy is going to recklessly fly in front of you scissoring away why wouldn't you take the shot. Is it wrong to kill they guy if he flys in front of you? Unless you mean HOs on a merge. Then you are correct.
Yes, I am referring to the merge.
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Originally posted by mold
It's only a game to me as well. But I try to behave with dignity whatever I am doing. You betrayed yourself in your post above: "The more you whine, the more it makes me want to stick it to you." Why are you so angered if this is only a game for you? The reason for your anger is that you do not like the way you behave--the cause of all insecurity and defensiveness.
Spare me the third grade psych analysis.
I don't feel anger toward you for whining about unfairness. I want to stick it to you because I enjoy watching you and others like you whine up a storm about the unfairness of it all. What you don't get is that while you're off stewing over the fact that I may have cherry picked you or vulched you or beaten you straight up in a 1v1, I've moved on to the next target and forgotten all about you. Well, unless you go and whine about it on Channel 1 or the forums, in which case I get to laugh at you.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Your posts are certainly quite angry, whether you care to admit it or not.
The game doesn't matter. Just dots on the screen. But your behavior matters--always, in work and in play. Don't justify your poor behaviour by saying "it's only a game".
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Originally posted by mold
Your posts are certainly quite angry, whether you care to admit it or not.
[/B]
Whining about unfairness demonstrates anger, or in the very least frustration, with the game. Certainly it showcases a fundamental misunderstanding of the game and its rules of conduct. Perhaps a new game would better suit your psychological needs?
The game doesn't matter. Just dots on the screen. But your behavior matters--always, in work and in play. Don't justify your poor behaviour by saying "it's only a game".
My "poor behavior?" LOL! Shooting your chute, vulching you, and cherry picking you aren't "poor behaviors." You think they're poor behavior, but what you consistently fail to understand is that these activities are not actually antisocial, poor behavior, or anything else in Aces High beyond killing pixels on the screen. They are as much a part of this game as any other activities, so I'm afraid you'll have to deal with that fact or move on with your gaming life.
Sorry, but when you equated so-called dishonorable behavior in Aces High to inhumanity, you guaranteed that just about everyone consider you a misguided nutcase.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I think the guys who worry about "honor" are the ones who don't get enough kills to distract em...
Leviathn moves on because he get's a number of kills per hour. Like me... he doesn't care how he get's em he just get's em and moves on to the next.
those who worry about the kill are those who have a lot of time between kills.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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You can either keep justifying a mistake to yourself, or correct it. Your choice man.
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Originally posted by mold
You can either keep justifying a mistake to yourself, or correct it. Your choice man.
Explain exactly where this "mistake" is explained and/or defined ?
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Explain exactly where this "mistake" is explained and/or defined ?
Think it through yourself, and be honest with yourself. Don't just argue for its own sake. This is not to benefit me--I will continue to play the way I like. If you want to spawn camp and vultch, well it's a free country. But don't get upset when someone criticizes you for it, because after all, you don't care, right? Get the kill and move on to the next. If you are truly comfortable with yourself, you do not have to argue with me about it.
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And.... if you didn't keep bringing it up.... no one would argue with you about it.
lazs
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Originally posted by mold
Think it through yourself, and be honest with yourself. Don't just argue for its own sake. This is not to benefit me--I will continue to play the way I like. If you want to spawn camp and vultch, well it's a free country. But don't get upset when someone criticizes you for it, because after all, you don't care, right? Get the kill and move on to the next. If you are truly comfortable with yourself, you do not have to argue with me about it.
I am not arguing ... I am very comfortable where I am at. I am simply asking where and what source is the "mistake" defined in so I can better understand where you are coming from ?
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Todd's real self hatred comes from being unable to put up a decent hit%
-Sik
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Well...as to where I'm coming from, I think that folks should behave decently in the game, even though the game itself is something that doesn't matter. I try to do so myself, and appreciate it when others do the same. I put things like spawn camping and vulching in the "dishonorable" category. Such behaviour is obviously going to persist whether I like it or not, but these are my opinions anyway.
I also feel that it is an excuse to say that "these are dots on the screen, so it doesn't matter how I behave". I think making such excuses is an indication that the perpetrator is really not comfortable with his own behavior, whether he admits it to himself or not.
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My goal when I fly AH is to blow holes in your little pixel plane, ditto for your little pixel chute, watch your little dot man splatter on the virtual terrain then fly to your virtual base, kill your best pixel pal, land, punch your pixel CO,kick your dot dog, and kiss your virtual girlfriend.
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IMO
Hordes suck, so do all that fly in them.
Dont be afraid to use the skills you have. Dont be afraid to learn new skills.
30 guys pounding an undefended base is boring at best. Reach deep inside of yourself to find that inner strength to not need 29 wingmen to make you feel secure. You can do IT!!!
A_Clown
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AW under Gamestorm and the Big Pork was just the same, if not worse, because it was even harder to get to the fight. I can remember flying some 3 sector missions just to get in the action because the enemy would be that far away (and your side too, milkrunning some deserted corner). That's why I looked up AH in the first place.
I Think a big part of the horde mentality is ego. It sucks to die over and over and over again... particularly when it's not some AI routine causing the death. I went for about a year in AW DOS before I got a positive K/D, but I suppose my attitude was one of getting better regradless, even when my lack of SA and e-management skills led to some pretty hard months. I can see how easy it would be though, to play it safe.
Fundamentally, the map design can help, but I believe there needs to be a major reworking of the strat model that encourages interaction to achieve any real goal. In AW DOS there was the central map concept and lack of reset. If you wanted to accomplish anything you really had no choice but to do it in an area where there was guranteed to be some opposition -- often all three countries in the same square. Great gaming experience.
Netcode/numbers issues made the central concept less viable in AW with Gamestorm (and maybe here as well) but there are options that have been suggested in the past to require real strategy and mixed operations that might make for some more action.
Charon
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Originally posted by mold
Well...as to where I'm coming from, I think that folks should behave decently in the game, even though the game itself is something that doesn't matter. I try to do so myself, and appreciate it when others do the same. I put things like spawn camping and vulching in the "dishonorable" category. Such behaviour is obviously going to persist whether I like it or not, but these are my opinions anyway.
I also feel that it is an excuse to say that "these are dots on the screen, so it doesn't matter how I behave". I think making such excuses is an indication that the perpetrator is really not comfortable with his own behavior, whether he admits it to himself or not.
Ahhh ... I see ... these "mistakes" are all part of the "mold" doctrine of engagement in virtual war.
Maybe HT will turn on "show smoke" in the MA so that when planes are launching from a enemy base (as we fly above it) with show smoke on, we won't vulch them, and only when they feel that their plane is up to engagement speed, they will turn the smoke off and then fight is on. (This is standard in H2H FFA Arenas)
and ...
When GVs after GVs are pouring out of a spawn point and attacking our base, we won't advance onto that point until they have generated enough armor to mount a sizable task force, and at that point, they will shoot a flare into the air to signal that they are ready for engagement. HT will have to code the flare cause we don't have it now but it would needed to correct the "mistake".
I saw an interview with a British Spit pilot. He told the story of his first engagement which he, for all intents and purposes, won. He really tore up the FW but couldn't get himself to finish the job and kill another human being, so he did what he thought was the honorable thing to do ... he let the FW return.
He then went on to say that during his flight home he realized that the guy he just let go could return tomorrow and kill him and worse, kill one of his squaddies.
He said ... he never made that "mistake" again.
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Originally posted by Charon
I went for about a year in AW DOS before I got a positive K/D,
...wow...only a year?
Now I AM depressed.
- oldman
(Really? Just a year?)
(Rats)
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Slapshot--
Aren't you one of the folks who doesn't care about the "war" in AH? That you just want to have fun? Why do you care if many GVs are headed to your base? Isn't it more fun to let an enemy get some alt to fight him, than to vulch him? Where's the fun in vulching? Why do you care if the enemy is going to come back again? This is just a game, right? And IIRC you are also against pork-fuel-augers, right? I don't like them either. Tell me, what's the difference between a fuel porker and a spawn camper?
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Originally posted by mold
Slapshot--
Aren't you one of the folks who doesn't care about the "war" in AH? That you just want to have fun? Why do you care if many GVs are headed to your base? Isn't it more fun to let an enemy get some alt to fight him, than to vulch him? Where's the fun in vulching? Why do you care if the enemy is going to come back again? This is just a game, right? And IIRC you are also against pork-fuel-augers, right? I don't like them either. Tell me, what's the difference between a fuel porker and a spawn camper?
Yes I don't care about winning the war ... and I do have fun ... that has no relevance to my examples.
Why do I care if GVs are coming to my base ... cause their 1st intent is to frag the base if they can ... ergo ... pork the fuel and hangers.
Nothing better that a good air-to-air fight. If the furball pushes back to their base and the opportunity presents itself ... I will shoot you on the runway. No questions asked.
Want to stop vulching ... don't try to up when a base is capped with multiple aircraft. I surely don't try to up under those conditions, so anybody that is foolish enough to try and up under those conditions deserves to get vulched. They bring it upon themselves. Its Darwinism at its finest.
The difference between a fuel-porker and a spawn camper ? The fuel-porker is typically a no-skilled dweeb and a spawn camper is one that uses expertise to position and flank the enemy so as to ambush them. Spawn camping is simply an ambush ... its done all the time in war.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Nothing better that a good air-to-air fight. If the furball pushes back to their base and the opportunity presents itself ... I will shoot you on the runway. No questions asked.
Why? Not to win the war, certainly...
Originally posted by SlapShot
Want to stop vulching ... don't try to up when a base is capped with multiple aircraft. I surely don't try to up under those conditions, so anybody that is foolish enough to try and up under those conditions deserves to get vulched. They bring it upon themselves. Its Darwinism at its finest.
I agree and I don't. Perhaps they deserve to be vulched, but that doesn't excuse vulching.
Originally posted by SlapShot
The difference between a fuel-porker and a spawn camper ? The fuel-porker is typically a no-skilled dweeb and a spawn camper is one that uses expertise to position and flank the enemy so as to ambush them. Spawn camping is simply an ambush ... its done all the time in war.
I disagree. It takes as much skill to hit a fuel dump and auger, as it does to sit at a spawn and camp. Fuel is hit all the time in war too. But I believe neither of us cares about the war in the MA, so it is not relevant. I see these things as one and the same, and actually I am quite surprised that the furball crowd embraces these things. Spawn camp and vulch seem like strat stuff--keeping the base under submission while the jabos hit the base. Not for those who are in it for air-to-air.
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It seems like some may be straying from the intended topic, of course it can all be linked, I feel some mat be sstraying from the focus.
Really this thread was meant to see if there are others out there who feel the horde tendencies in the MA are making the game less fun. I haven't been on tonite yet, had fun last nite.
I am hopeful people will want to raise the bar back up a couple notches, challenge themselves to stray from the flock a bit- so to speak.
Anton
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Originally posted by mold
Why? Not to win the war, certainly...
[/B]
He does it because it's enjoyable to him. There need be no other objective.
I agree and I don't. Perhaps they deserve to be vulched, but that doesn't excuse vulching.
[/B]
Vulching doesn't need excusing. It just is. You're going to have to deal with the fact that vulching does not represent a breach of moral conduct, or you're going to grow tired quickly by your righteous indignance at every instance of it. It's not a matter of showing "dignity" in a game, because it's part of the game itself. What many of us already understand and you somehow fail to grasp is that vulching or chute shooting or gangbanging or whatever are no less dignifed than fast breaks in basketball or powerplays in hockey. It's absolutely ridiculous to attribute moral weight to it.
That said, I also understand Anton's frustration with the fact that gameplay seems dominated by these types of behavior. It appears that his complaint stems more from an overabundance of the activities rather than the indignity they inflict individually. In other words, he feels his enjoyment suffers because the other team is always on the power play or always running fast breaks, not because these activities alone appear dishonorable or morally reprehensible.
I see these things as one and the same, and actually I am quite surprised that the furball crowd embraces these things. Spawn camp and vulch seem like strat stuff--keeping the base under submission while the jabos hit the base. Not for those who are in it for air-to-air.
This statement shows me how little you understand.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by mold
I agree and I don't. Perhaps they deserve to be vulched, but that doesn't excuse vulching.
There is no excuse for being vulched. A quick look around from the tower and anyone can see if a field is capped.
Bottomline...being vulched is Mother Nature's way of telling you...YOU ARE STUPID!! :D.
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Ettiquette in combat is the gift of the victor............ never the right of the victim.
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well that's sig material.
:D
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Spawn camping is simply an ambush ... its done all the time in war.
I love the way you TAS guys remind me time and time again that the MA is in no way a re-enactment of WW2, but when you seek support for something you've said, or want to challenge something in the MA that you feel is wrong, you resort to comparisons with RL armed conflict. Rude has done it, and Mr. Toad has been known to pontificate about the seemingly invincible properties of the PNZR pintle position because that's not the way it was in WW2. It all comes under the heading of Selective Realism™. LOL TAS! You're all pansies. :D
Tilt! "Ettiquette in combat is the gift of the victor............ never the right of the victim." I don't agree with that. Or at least I don't agree with that as a justification for some of the underhand ungentlemanly crap we see in the MA - kill stealing, chute shooting, shooting a guy who's landing, shooting a flaming wreck to get kill points. There's no need for it. None. But it's all symptomatic of a "Me First" attitude amongst the AH subscribership.
"Once you have your man on the canvas, that ought to be an end to it" - Lord Darlington (played by James Fox) commenting on the folly of the victorious Allies persecution of Germany after WW1 in the movie "The Remains of the Day".
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beetle, that's because there is no social structure that forces us to refrain from doing certain things, in AH.
We do what we want to do, and nobody stops at anything. In a large sense, it's the same thing as the recent ethical discussions concerning the internet culture of anonymity - some of us get to meet offline and deepen the experience from 'just another gamer' to 'a guy you've met'. You don't swear, spray, rely on incessant HO, rant, kill steal your friends. However, you do all those things against everyone else in the MA - while they talk, and communicate with us, they are still nothing but bunch of words and letters behind a certain game handle.
In this particular debate, I really view myself as a 3rd person - and in that sense, I really can't figure out everybody is obsessed with things like "honor".
I don't think this is just about the game, but more of what conveys our personal attitudes to someone else we meet in an online environment. Some people are exceptionally fair and polite to their personal friends, but are incredibly hostile and bi*chy against people who they do not really know. I've seen some respected 'ace' pilots being superbly polite and 'honorable' when they meet certain squad members, or certain people they acknowledge, and yet whine and moan and insult other people when they get shot down. I think that goes for each and every one of us - the fact that no matter what we have argued in this thread, we have contradicted our very own words more than once, while playing this game.
As for me, it really is a matter of curiosity - what comes natural and what not? I've been a vulcher and a vulchee, a spawn camper and a spawn campee, HOer and a HOee(although I don't think there's such difference in the case of HOs..) and etc etc.
Certain things of necessity I tend to keep - for instance of vulching, vulching is fun and profitable, but after a while, seeing the same guy up again and again, I tend to pity him a bit. I think I can find a certain point of self-control or consciousness where I recall that while in such competition all of us are here to enjoy this as a game, and probably the guy being vulched over and over are hurt in his ego or feelings or whatever. As long as I know he isn't much of a threat just getting up, I'll larry off grabbing more alt, try and intercept defenders from other bases and do a few good things for my countrymen.
Doesn't this kind of action come naturally? I've never thought of myself as goody-two-shoes, it's just what naturally follows during the course of battle in the MA - for me, that is. But sometimes seeing both sides so much centered on themselves - as one side is recklessly obsessive about killing things anyway they can, and the other side is also recklessly obsessive about bringing a Chivalric Code into the game - and showing so much hostility against each other, is really confusing.
Funny thing is, many of the people so harshly supporting the dog-eat-dog nature of MA in this thread, isn't like that at all in the MA. To be fair, I've also seen people who emphasize so much upon all the 'gentlemanly conducts' not being gentlemanly at all.
In that sense, I think the thread is getting over-heated ;) The MA is sometimes pleasant, sometimes not. But everybody walks the middle path in one way or another, and the hostility they portray in this thread is rarely so high in actual gaming in MA.
Maybe you guys should grab a breather and cool your heads a bit. :) Just a suggestion. Everybody talks role of the macho hard-liner in the forums, but I don't doubt there's a certain level of consciousness and self control within everybody - at least to an extent.
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moving the fields closer tgether would fix everything. The fights would be large and fairly even or... pushed back to a field that was overwhelmed.
the people with some sort of bizzare idea of honor in AH would think that all us furballers were helping them and playing by their rules and..... we could just have fun and ignore them.
lazs
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..wow...only a year?
Now I AM depressed.
- oldman
(Really? Just a year?)
(Rats)
Oldman
:) I had been slaughtering AI opponents since Their Finest Hour in 1988; several thousand kills in Red Baron, out turning Zeroes in my P-47 in Aces of the Pacific, fighting Migs with my Saber in Chuck Yeager and was even undefeated among a handful of friends playing AW offline with a null modem for a few months.
Suddenly, the SVGA AW (DOS) FR arena was an unforgiving high leathality environment unlike any offline game I had played. I might have been tempted into being a fuel porking suicide dweeb myself except for the fact that that wasn't much of an option. Bombing was pretty much a means to an end -- getting a field closer to the A2A action.
Charon
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Originally posted by Kweassa
You don't swear, spray, rely on incessant HO, rant, kill steal your friends.
I do! :D
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
He does it because it's enjoyable to him. There need be no other objective.
OK. Are you with lazs in despising fuel porkers and "battling toolsheds"? They are just in it for fun. Vulching and spawn camping are as pointless as toolshed-battling, and even more skilless to boot. Why do you not despise these things as well?
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
It's not a matter of showing "dignity" in a game, because it's part of the game itself.
So is pork augering fuel. Just "being in the game" does not make it acceptable conduct.
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
This statement shows me how little you understand.
That is a non-response. Please explain.
Originally posted by Tilt
Ettiquette in combat is the gift of the victor............ never the right of the victim.
You are right. I personally don't get vulched, but nevertheless I do not expect etiquette as a right. But those who claim to take moral stands against things like pork-auger are hypocrites if they turn around and spawn camp.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I do! :D
-- Todd/Leviathn
me too!! and i killshooter!!!
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Originally posted by Tilt
Ettiquette in combat is the gift of the victor............ never the right of the victim.
Bingorama!
I also have to throw in with Dead Man on this.
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Vulching doesn't need excusing. It just is. You're going to have to deal with the fact that vulching does not represent a breach of moral conduct, or you're going to grow tired quickly by your righteous indignance at every instance of it. It's not a matter of showing "dignity" in a game, because it's part of the game itself.
Show me the rules that say what's honorable or not. They don't exist. All that exists is someone doing something you don't like. One one hand, vulching is required to cap the field for capture. On the other hand, players are going to do it like water flows down hill. Accept it or play tiddlywinks or chess.
I have ranted at Dead Man for cherry picking me while I was in a good fight. Not because doing so is wrong, but because he doesn't need cheap kills to fill his pelt quota.
I have ranted about players camping and taking VHs in NB's Tank Town. Not because there's anything wrong with it. Because doing it there is counter productive to the purpose of the place.
Chute shooting really gets to me. I've seen rants about this for over eight years now and I still suspect it has to be a joke. How can anyone take this seriously?
grizzly
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beet1e ...
Why must you always paint with a 24" brush ?
I love the way you TAS guys remind me time and time again that the MA is in no way a re-enactment of WW2, but when you seek support for something you've said, or want to challenge something in the MA that you feel is wrong, you resort to comparisons with RL armed conflict.
It is in no way a total re-enactment of WW2 and will never be. Air-to-Air combat is a re-enactment, ambushes are a re-enactment ... get it ... certain aspects are and should be. (Selective Realism™)
Kweassa ...
Nice post !!!
Mold ...
I don't seek out the vulch, nor do I always look for the spawn camp ... If I happen to be there and the opportunity presents itself ... then I will do it. No questions asked.
I do the things very similar to what Kweassa has described. If I have traveled (without the horde) with a couple of squaddies to an airfield, found no uppers ... I will de-ack the field just for the halibut ... If they start to up, then the vulch light is on. If a furball has pushed itself backk to the enemy base, and their is suffcient cap, I will not join the vulch pattern ... I will head towards a nearby base and see if I can get into a fight with anyone that is inbound. I do this, because this is what I like to do and enjoy doing it ... its not the "morality" guilt trip that makes me do it.
We have brought to light things that we don't like and things that we like ... but have never attached the "morality" notion to any of it.
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Slapshot--
In light of your above post I can see that you are more moderate in your actions than I suspected.
AH is much closer to a community of players than actual combat. As such, common courtesy is welcome. And common courtesy is nothing more than morals applied to everyday life, which includes a computer game played interactively online. So "morals" and "honor" are not such high things that only belong in certain solemn moments in life. Beyond dots on the screen, you are interacting with others, and are therefore responsible for your behavior. There are many situations outside this game where you can choose to ignore common courtesy. If you are in a supermarket, you might butt in front of everyone with a single item without asking their permission. Better for you, since you don't have to wait, and doesn't really matter for the others, right? At most 1 minute, so who cares. And it certainly isn't illegal, so it is within the "rules of the game". But common courtesy goes beyond just the rules.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
It is in no way a total re-enactment of WW2 and will never be. Air-to-Air combat is a re-enactment, ambushes are a re-enactment ... get it ... certain aspects are and should be. (Selective Realism™)
Oh yeah? And who gets to decide which bits should be re-enactments and which should not? Get back to me after you have discussed it with the Furball Committee.
Kweassa - I agree in part. But all the chute shooting/kill stealing crap did does not exist at the same level in other games. Indeed, even the CT of AH is totally different. I think it's a kidz/tardz/wankbagz issue.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Oh yeah? And who gets to decide which bits should be re-enactments and which should not? Get back to me after you have discussed it with the Furball Committee.
Kweassa - I agree in part. But all the chute shooting/kill stealing crap did does not exist at the same level in other games. Indeed, even the CT of AH is totally different. I think it's a kidz/tardz/wankbagz issue.
This is easy....I get to decide...now play the way you're supposed to or go work in your garden.
As to TAS seeking the support of anything we have said....everyone knows we're right, thus there is no need to seek out any approval from anyone.
You need to pay more attention Beet.....you conclusions are hollow.
Cyas Up(well, prolly not since you fly way way up there somewhere)
:eek:
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Originally posted by beet1e
Oh yeah? And who gets to decide which bits should be re-enactments and which should not? Get back to me after you have discussed it with the Furball Committee.
Kweassa - I agree in part. But all the chute shooting/kill stealing crap did does not exist at the same level in other games. Indeed, even the CT of AH is totally different. I think it's a kidz/tardz/wankbagz issue.
Well ... the Furball Committee has adjorned its first meeting on this topic and we decided that you don't get to decide. Next meeting is after the holiday season is over ... we will be getting back to you ... :D
Kill stealing ...
The only kill stealing that I personally get involved in are those flaming wrecks produced by the TAS or the BKs (and that is getting old too) ... otherwise I don't waste my ammo.
Shute Chooting ...
Once HT disables all types of communcation for those that choose to hang in the silk (no check 6s or sit rep allowed) ... then I will stop chooting shutes ... till then ... ride that sucker in or be prepared to feel the wrath of the 303s ... unless of course you decide to pull the ripcord above 5K.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Shute Chooting ...
Once HT disables all types of communcation for those that choose to hang in the silk (no check 6s or sit rep allowed) ... then I will stop chooting shutes
I didn't know that. Yes, certainly communications should be disabled while in silk. I'm surprised HTC didn't catch that. LOL!
BTW, spawn camping is not an "ambush" in any realistic sense. It's gaming the game, pure and simple. Not any fun either, or does anybody really think it is? Seems like it is just a skilless way to pad a kill score.
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People being killed by a spawn camper are just as stupid as those that are being killed by a vultcher.
No one makes you spawn.
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Not that they have alot to do with HORDES-
Vulching can be avoided by looking around from tower before lifting.
There is no way I know of to see if a spawn point has a camper, unless you get someone to fly by & report-. The 1 time I attempted tp spawn camp, I drove all the way out to spawn point, by the time I got there a countryman had killed opposing VH:rofl . Served me right, I've never tried again.
Again vulching & spawn-camping don't have a whole lot to do with 30 guys steamrolling a line of undefended bases, while another country is steamrolling into 1st mentioned country, & the 3rd is steamrolling into 2nd.
I also want to mention to any new guys that are just learning & following the horde-
If you are interested in TOD, its very unlikely that there will be many Hordes in the new game. You guys & gals might wanna take this time to learn some ACM, SA, plane knowledge, & tactical information. You are likely to need to know more than just follow the sheep & kill the buildings.:cool:
Anton
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Originally posted by Furious
People being killed by a spawn camper are just as stupid as those that are being killed by a vultcher.
No one makes you spawn.
Once again...the stupidity of the camped does not excuse the camper, nor does it imply that the camper is utilizing some kind of ambushing technique (which statement was made in an attempt to legitimize it).
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LOL Anton. :) Sorry for the hijack. Vulching is somewhat related to hordes, though--some in the hordes do not want anything but easy gangbangs on the way and easy vulches when they get there, and that increases the size of the horde.
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Originally posted by Rude
As to TAS seeking the support of anything we have said....everyone knows we're right, thus there is no need to seek out any approval from anyone.
You need to pay more attention Beet.....you conclusions are hollow.
ROFL! Reading the second sentence too soon after reading the first is not recommended if you happen to be drinking coffe at the time! :D
As to me flying in the stratosphere - I have film shot over the last two days. What the hell are you talking about? I was hitting 224 with a load of other rooks. Sometimes I was so low to the deck that you can see my shadow. Looks like Rude is one of those guys who judges people by their stats/posts alone. A bit like judging the performance of a car by its colour, and the condition of the paintwork. :rolleyes:
If you're interested, here is that film (http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/teamwork.zip) - of course, you might want to ignore my film and/or belittle me for posting it. Why? Because film is proof, and in this case proves that you talk a load of BS. Those are the only reasons folks protest about films being posted. Well, up yours, turnfite boy! Post back after you have grown balls to go with that ***is.
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Originally posted by beet1e
As to me flying in the stratosphere - I have film shot over the last two days. What the hell are you talking about? I was hitting 224 with a load of other rooks. Sometimes I was so low to the deck that you can see my shadow.
haven't looked at film.. but the above is very telling...
:rolleyes:
nothing impressive there.. of the three times you were "so low as to see your own shadow" two of them were when you were making a cherrypick pass at 420+ before zooming back to the heavens, the third time was when you got a little lower and slower picking off a slow niki, and ended up in a, lol, flat-turn, screaming to be saved from the pony that came in at speed and latched on you. of course there were no otehr knits around, and you had two rooks frantically trying to save you - they did.
nothing to see there, no "balls" or "***is" - move along...
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"What the hell are you talking about? I was hitting 224 with a load of other rooks."
load = horde/gangbang ... no surprize here.
"Sometimes I was so low to the deck that you can see my shadow."
Something that your probably not to use to ... musta scared the crap outta ya. Probably thought it was a plane under you.
:D
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beetle.... best to not post film and let people think you are a timid, cherry picking sky accountant than to post film and prove it.
lazs
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Beet ... I just watched the film.
The only reason why you were anywhere near the deck was due to the fact that's where ALL the targets were ... obviously beaten down to that alt by the Rook horde preparing to set up the vulch at that base.
I have to admit that the high deflection shot on the A6M on the deck and the zoom to 11K was really risky and aggresive ... WTG ... :lol
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Originally posted by Cobra412
arena. The factories should have a larger affect on the whole output of the game.
Strategic targets
Target type Target Destroy with Downtime Effect Supplier Can be resupplied
Field Map room 10 troops N/A Captures field N/A No
Guns 1 100 lb 2 hours Kills field ack AAA factory Yes
Radar 1 250 lb 2 hours Kills field radar in a 12.5 mile radius Radar factory Yes
Ammo 1 250 lb 2 hours Reduces bomb/rocket loadout to zero Ammo factory Yes
Fuel 1 250 lb 2 hours Reduces maximum allowed fuel load Fuel refinery Yes
Barracks 1 250 lb 2 hours Reduces troop loadout to zero Training facility Yes
Fighter hangar 3 1000 lb 15 mins Disables fighters at the field N/A No
Bomber hangar 3 1000 lb 15 mins Disables bombers at the field N/A No
Vehicle hangar 3 1000 lb 15 mins Disables vehicles at the field N/A No
Shore battery 4 1000 lb 15 mins Disables shore battery at the field N/A No
Town building 1 250 lb 45 mins Kills town building to allow for field capture N/A No
Zone HQ 19 1000 lb 2 hours Kills all radar for a country City building Yes
AAA factory 1 250 lb 3 hours Loads supplies for field guns City building Yes
Radar factory 1 250 lb 3 hours Loads supplies for field radar City building Yes
Ammo factory 1 250 lb 3 hours Loads supplies for ammo at fields City building Yes
Fuel refinery 1 250 lb 3 hours Loads supplies for fuel tanks at fields City building Yes
Training facility 1 250 lb 3 hours Loads supplies for barracks at fields City building Yes
City City building 1 250 lb 3 hours Loads supplies for factories and HQ City building Yes *
Supply Train 1 100 lb N/A Stops train from resupplying destination N/A N/A
Convoy ½ 100 lb N/A Stops convoy from resupplying destination N/A N/A
Barge ½ 100 lb N/A Stops barge from resupplying destination N/A N/A
Ships Primary ship 8 1000 lb 5 min Sinks task group, respawns at port N/A No
Other ships 2 1000 lb 1 hour Sinks ship N/A No
Special Types Barrier N/A N/A Barrier N/A N/A
Structure 1 250 lb 45 minutes An object any country can destroy N/A No
* Each drop of convoy or train supplies on damaged city targets reduces the 3 hour downtime by 30 minutes. Each drop of player supplies reduces the downtime by 15 minutes.
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Nothing to prove - wasn't trying to show off. Sorry shane. Just wanted to point out that I'm not always in the stratosphere.
As for load/horde - I think you'll find the rooks were outnumbered. Oh excuse me, should I have been flying alone? That's not what happened in WW2, don't you know. Ooops, oh no, guess I just stepped on an aspect of Selective Realism™ not approved by the Furball Committee. :lol
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Originally posted by mold
OK. Are you with lazs in despising fuel porkers and "battling toolsheds"? They are just in it for fun. Vulching and spawn camping are as pointless as toolshed-battling, and even more skilless to boot. Why do you not despise these things as well?
[/B]
No, I'm not with lazs on that. I can hardly fault them for doing something allowed by the system and, in fact, encouraged by it given the disproportionate impact of porking fuel. When someone porks fuel at my base, I either find another fight, go to the Combat Theater, or log for awhile. I do feel that the strat system rewards fuel porking too much, but that does not mean that I condemn those who do it. Nor do I consider them somehow less than human or immoral. Sound familiar?
So is pork augering fuel. Just "being in the game" does not make it acceptable conduct.
[/b]
On the contrary, it's perfectly acceptable conduct.
That is a non-response. Please explain.
[/b]
You seem to keep lumping people into "strat warriors" and "furballers," and then you attribute conduct becoming of one group or the other but never both together. You then classify certain conduct such as vulching or spawn camping "strategic" and out of the realm of "air-to-air" conduct.
Here's a hint: people do whatever's fun. Furballers don't sit around and think, "Holy crap, my vulching that guy was too strategic! What am I thinking?!?! I'm such a hypocrite!" They do it because it's fun, because they feel like it, and because the game allows it. Now quit trying to paint people as hypocrites for not fitting into your painfully narrow niches when all they're doing is playing the game the way they feel like playing it.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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As I've pointed out earlier, fun should not come at the expense of common courtesy. I still don't understand how vulching and camping are fun, but to each his own. You call camping a "power play", but I call it butting in front of the line unexcused. If you want to put it in hockey terms, it's like inviting the Flyers to your house for a large BBQ/Beer-fest the afternoon before the game, for the purpose of making them play like crap. Not illegal or against the rules, but lame nonetheless.
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Originally posted by mold
As I've pointed out earlier, fun should not come at the expense of common courtesy. I still don't understand how vulching and camping are fun, but to each his own.
[/B]
Here you go again. It's not a matter of "common courtesy." It's part of the game, and to apply matters of "courtesy" or "honor" or whatever to it as silly as applying them to unfair situations in sports or other games.
You call camping a "power play", but I call it butting in front of the line unexcused. If you want to put it in hockey terms, it's like inviting the Flyers to your house for a large BBQ/Beer-fest the afternoon before the game, for the purpose of making them play like crap. Not illegal or against the rules, but lame nonetheless.
That's an incredibly poor analogy. Not to mention the fact that the conduct you're describing exists outside the game environment and parameters.
Plus I'm a lifelong Flyers fan, so I really doubt I'd try to make them play like crap. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by mold
As I've pointed out earlier, fun should not come at the expense of common courtesy. I still don't understand how vulching and camping are fun, but to each his own. You call camping a "power play", but I call it butting in front of the line unexcused. If you want to put it in hockey terms, it's like inviting the Flyers to your house for a large BBQ/Beer-fest the afternoon before the game, for the purpose of making them play like crap. Not illegal or against the rules, but lame nonetheless.
Yes ... but each one of those Flyer's has the choice to imbibe to excess or not.
Same choice to those who continually try to up at a capped field or spawn into a camped spot. Don't want to get vulched ... don't up. Don't want to get camped ... don't spawn. The choice is theirs/yours.
And to stay on topic ... I hate the HORDE mentality !!! :D
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Originally posted by SlapShot
And to stay on topic ... I hate the HORDE mentality !!! :D
But you don't hate the spawn-camper mentality? :)
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Here you go again. It's not a matter of "common courtesy." It's part of the game, and to apply matters of "courtesy" or "honor" or whatever to it as silly as applying them to unfair situations in sports or other games.
This is a community of players in addition to a game. Common courtesy therefore has a place in it.
Slapshot-- you hate the horde mentality? Why? It is a part of the game, and they can do whatever they want. It's lame, but so what after all, as lameness is accepable, right?
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I love the HORDE mentallity !!!
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Originally posted by mold
This is a community of players in addition to a game. Common courtesy therefore has a place in it.
[/B]
The players play the game. Part of this game entails all of the activities you wrongfully consider lacking in common courtesy.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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There can be a lack of common courtesy within any community, even if everyone lives within the rules (or is forced to, as in a computer game).
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Originally posted by mold
There can be a lack of common courtesy within any community, even if everyone lives within the rules (or is forced to, as in a computer game).
And so it begins again. What you consider "common" courtesy is hardly common. Since so many people appear subhuman to you for their lack of common courtesy, maybe it's you who are wrong about what most players consider unacceptable behavior.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Those who lack honor like to pretend that honor does not exist.
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Originally posted by mold
Those who lack honor like to pretend that honor does not exist.
Those who are so retarded as to think "honor" applies in an online game focused on free-for-all combat pretend that it matters.
Seriously, it sounds like you need to find another game. Soon.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Incidentally, the "common" in common courtesy does not refer to the number of people who possess it. Indeed there are groups of people in which common courtesy is hardly common. Drivers in New Jersey come to mind. :D "Common" refers to the fact that it applies to everyday situations, like shopping for groceries or playing an online game.
In any case, since honor doesn't matter, why are you still trying to defend your behavior? One of the quotes in Shane's sig comes to mind: "I love how slobberdonkeys try and justify their lameness."
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Seriously, it sounds like you need to find another game. Soon.
Why? Don't like it when I point out your deficiencies? I'm doing just fine, thanks. :aok I'll continue to play the game and enjoy it, and avoid spawn camping folks such as yourself.
I display a general garment, and you claim it fits. Everyone knows it's ugly, but you can hardly deny it since I guess too many have seen you wear it. So instead of doing the sensible thing and changing your clothes, you make futile arguments like "But it's not ugly! All clothes are ugly! Who cares if it's ugly? Not me!"
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Originally posted by mold
Incidentally, the "common" in common courtesy does not refer to the number of people who possess it. Indeed there are groups of people in which common courtesy is hardly common. Drivers in New Jersey come to mind. :D "Common" refers to the fact that it applies to everyday situations, like shopping for groceries or playing an online game.
[/B]
Except it doesn't apply to online games. At least not those where gameplay allows for all types of conduct and even encourages them.
In any case, since honor doesn't matter, why are you still trying to defend your behavior? One of the quotes in Shane's sig comes to mind: "I love how slobberdonkeys try and justify their lameness."
I'm not justifying my behavior because it doesn't require justification. What I'm doing is attempting to show you the wrong-headedness of your continuously incorrect claims that players in AH should follow some code of honor. The real gem of it was your statement that those who don't are less than human but not even worthy of being called animals. Priceless.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by mold
Why? Don't like it when I point out your deficiencies? I'm doing just fine, thanks. :aok I'll continue to play the game and enjoy it, and avoid spawn camping folks such as yourself.
[/B]
LOL! What's funny is that I honestly think you believe that you're pointing out my deficiencies. Or that somehow you're doing anything other than looking like a total moron in this thread.
Posting about the subhuman nature of honorless players sure indicates to me that something's getting under your collar. What's even funnier is the fact that you just admitted that you can avoid spawn campers and continue to enjoy yourself. Great! And others can spawn camp and enjoy themselves. And so on and so forth.
I display a general garment, and you claim it fits. Everyone knows it's ugly, but you can hardly deny it since I guess too many have seen you wear it. So instead of doing the sensible thing and changing your clothes, you make futile arguments like "But it's not ugly! All clothes are ugly! Who cares if it's ugly? Not me!"
You really need to work on those analogies.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Except it doesn't apply to online games. At least not those where gameplay allows for all types of conduct and even encourages them.
The point you continually gloss over and have not been able to respond to is that this is a community in addition to a game. So--have you ever saluted someone for a good fight?
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
You really need to work on those analogies.
You really need to work on your responses.
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Originally posted by mold
Well...as to where I'm coming from, I think that folks should behave decently in the game, even though the game itself is something that doesn't matter. I try to do so myself, and appreciate it when others do the same. I put things like spawn camping and vulching in the "dishonorable" category. Such behaviour is obviously going to persist whether I like it or not, but these are my opinions anyway.
I also feel that it is an excuse to say that "these are dots on the screen, so it doesn't matter how I behave". I think making such excuses is an indication that the perpetrator is really not comfortable with his own behavior, whether he admits it to himself or not.
You live in Europe by chance?
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Originally posted by Oldman731
...wow...only a year?
Now I AM depressed.
- oldman
(Really? Just a year?)
(Rats)
Ahhh...AWDOS...where men were men and Az's were abused and liked it....those were truly the good ol days.
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gives Molds pixel puppy a good swift kick.
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Originally posted by mold
Slapshot--
Aren't you one of the folks who doesn't care about the "war" in AH? That you just want to have fun? Why do you care if many GVs are headed to your base? Isn't it more fun to let an enemy get some alt to fight him, than to vulch him? Where's the fun in vulching? Why do you care if the enemy is going to come back again? This is just a game, right? And IIRC you are also against pork-fuel-augers, right? I don't like them either. Tell me, what's the difference between a fuel porker and a spawn camper?
Ask Voss...he'll know.
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Originally posted by Rude
You live in Europe by chance?
Nope.
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The rules are written in the stone
break the rules, and you get no bones.
All you get is Ridicule, laughter
and a trip to the house of pain
What is the law?
No Vulch n00bs
and who makes the law?
A guy named Mold.
I swear theres a song in here... (With apologies to Oingo Boingo).
-Sik
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Originally posted by mold
The point you continually gloss over and have not been able to respond to is that this is a community in addition to a game. So--have you ever saluted someone for a good fight?
[/B]
For someone who talks so much of this community, you demonstrate precious little familiarity with it.
You really need to work on your responses.
Slayed by rapier wit.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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If I read these posts correctly, Mold seems to be saying we should have a kinder...gentler AH. What he seems to disregard is the underlying point of AH and games of it's ilk...the ability to shoot people and blow things up with virtual impunity.
This stuff is bona fide escapest entertainment and it should be dealt with (and consumed) as such. Vulchers, spawn campers, suicide jabos, furballers, buff weenies, etc.....are part of the game. The trick for HTC is not to disallow any of them. But, instead, find ways to balance them. Example: I don't believe HTC should perk bombs to stop the suicide jabos. Hell, that would punish the legit players that use bombs. I believe they should punish them for dying (ie...you die...you get no score). This would not stop anyone that really wanted to suicide bomb. But, it would insure that they weren't rewarded for doing it.
The MA is designed as a place for free-form gameplay. You want to be the white knight and always fight with honor??? Go for it. It is allowed. You want to be one of the guys in black hats??? Go for it. THAT is the point of the MA. Attempts to inject the MA game with a Moral Code are pointless (as they should be). I, personally, do not want HTC or anyone else tellling me how I have to play the game. I have played games like that before.... BORING!.
Honor and respect in the game are given to those that earn them. This is as it should be.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
The trick for HTC is not to disallow any of them.
Certainly not. We are free to behave as we choose.
Originally posted by NoBaddy
The MA is designed as a place for free-form gameplay. You want to be the white knight and always fight with honor??? Go for it. It is allowed. You want to be one of the guys in black hats??? Go for it.
Sure. But don't jump on me if I say "there are a lot of people wearing black hats." Or, to put it another way, "Honor is a scarce commodity."
Originally posted by NoBaddy
Attempts to inject the MA game with a Moral Code are pointless (as they should be). I, personally, do not want HTC or anyone else tellling me how I have to play the game.
True. Behavior shouldn't be forced, and that is the way I want it as well. We are also free to say that certain methods of play are lame.
Originally posted by NoBaddy
Honor and respect in the game are given to those that earn them. This is as it should be.
Agreed.
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Makes perfect sense to me NB
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jeez, poop... all them virtural death beatings by your wife finally take their toll?
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_150_1067007634.jpg)
and keeping on topic...
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_150_1067458238.jpg)
not to forget just about everyone's lower rung position in the AH foodchain in relation to me...
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_150_1067007805.gif)
:aok
and another :aok or :aok, just cuz...
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Originally posted by mold
Certainly not. We are free to behave as we choose.
Sure. But don't jump on me if I say "there are a lot of people wearing black hats." Or, to put it another way, "Honor is a scarce commodity."
True. Behavior shouldn't be forced, and that is the way I want it as well. We are also free to say that certain methods of play are lame.
First (and foremost) I'm not jumping on you :). That being said... it does seem a bit paradoxical to say that people are free to play the way they want in one breath....then vilify them for doing so in the next.
Funny thing is that most of the people you are arguing this point with are generally considered 'honorable' players. At least I see them that way. However, like me, they reserve the right to be "dishonorable" (at least in your eyes) if the situation calls for it. That is not to say that there aren't players who's entire idea of gameplay is vulching, spawn camping...etc.. (Hell, I can think of 2 or 3 without even trying :D). However, my experience (and believe it or not...I have plenty) is that those players are the minority.
Judge not, lest ye be judged. <-----(I stole that :D)
BTW, if you have never worn "The Black Hat", you are missing half the fun :).
Originally posted by nopoop
Makes perfect sense to me NB
NOW I'm starting to get worried :D.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
First (and foremost) I'm not jumping on you :). That being said... it does seem a bit paradoxical to say that people are free to play the way they want in one breath....then vilify them for doing so in the next.
In what way is that paradoxical? One is free to do all things, (what I consider) lame and non-lame. One is free to criticize as well.
Originally posted by NoBaddy
Funny thing is that most of the people you are arguing this point with are generally considered 'honorable' players. At least I see them that way. However, like me, they reserve the right to be "dishonorable" (at least in your eyes) if the situation calls for it.
No problem with any of this.
Originally posted by NoBaddy
That is not to say that there aren't players who's entire idea of gameplay is vulching, spawn camping...etc.. (Hell, I can think of 2 or 3 without even trying :D). However, my experience (and believe it or not...I have plenty) is that those players are the minority.
Yeah, that's probably true. Most people probably don't do these things all the time, since they are after all pretty boring activities. I see more of killstealing (shooting debris) and gangbanging though, which I think is pretty lame. Not really any fun there either imo.
Originally posted by NoBaddy
BTW, if you have never worn "The Black Hat", you are missing half the fun :).
LOL :) Nah, really not my thing.
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nb.. I would agree with you except your example... taking the points away from the suicuide bombers won't change a thing... they are doing it because they have no skill and can't compete anyway.. the attention is in the deed not the score.
On the other hand... even a mdicum of sklill would give you all the bomber perk points you need... most would have more than they knew what to do with... also... the value could be adjusted. There is no adjustment in simply not giving them points. So... if they want to suicide pork then.... with perked bombs they will have earned it... much as a 262 pilot who aims strait at a huge bomber formation and gets 4 or five before dieng. Do we really see a lot of that?
lazs
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Originally posted by beet1e
ROFL! Reading the second sentence too soon after reading the first is not recommended if you happen to be drinking coffe at the time! :D
As to me flying in the stratosphere - I have film shot over the last two days. What the hell are you talking about? I was hitting 224 with a load of other rooks. Sometimes I was so low to the deck that you can see my shadow. Looks like Rude is one of those guys who judges people by their stats/posts alone. A bit like judging the performance of a car by its colour, and the condition of the paintwork. :rolleyes:
If you're interested, here is that film (http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/teamwork.zip) - of course, you might want to ignore my film and/or belittle me for posting it. Why? Because film is proof, and in this case proves that you talk a load of BS. Those are the only reasons folks protest about films being posted. Well, up yours, turnfite boy! Post back after you have grown balls to go with that ***is.
I saw the film Beet....kinda weak...it mayy work to deceive the newer guys, but not with me....I can tell a cherry pickin opportunist when I see one.
Best for you to get low and stay there...might even consider fighting someone as well...go to our website and watch me in the 38...outnumbered and kickin tail like a man should.
BTW...I may not have my balls any longer, but at least I was born with some....dress wearin suits you just fine my little tootle pippin, orthodontically challenged friend.
Later:)
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Originally posted by lazs2
this is allways the case on the big maps with the fields too far apart.. everyone is afraid to get too far from home so they go in mobs. close fields prevent this.
lazs
Everyone is "afraid" to travel alone because if you get into a one-on-one with an enemy fighter, gain an advantage, he will call for help. Then it becomes a one-on two or three, and you get your arse shot down. That's not my idea of fun.
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Originally posted by:rshubert
Everyone is "afraid" to travel alone because if you get into a one-on-one with an enemy fighter, gain an advantage, he will call for help. Then it becomes a one-on two or three, and you get your arse shot down. That's not my idea of fun.
Yeah I hear ya hube. That is one good thing about being a knight, we have been outnumbered for so long 1v1 almost never happens. It's always 1 v2 or more. It has forced me to learn to fight like that all the time. Granted I'm not as successful as id liked to be, but it's kinda like golf - 20 chipshots then that one perfect shot that keeps you playing. There is no better feeling than being attacked by 2 or 3 v1 and sending them all home in a chute. It has made 1v1 kinda boring not really lol. Biggest thing that has helped me is not chasing one guy, breaking for his buddy and taking any shot they give you. Really makes you work the plane to.
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Originally posted by rshubert
Everyone is "afraid" to travel alone because if you get into a one-on-one with an enemy fighter, gain an advantage, he will call for help. Then it becomes a one-on two or three, and you get your arse shot down. That's not my idea of fun.
It doesn't have to be this way. If you keep an eye out, you can use your advantage over the first guy to escape instead of close, to prepare for the arrival of his teammates. I lone-wolf, and if I get shot down in this situation is generally because I lost SA and didn't notice the other guy coming. If you keep your SA you can survive (although it may be difficult to get kills when it is 3-on-1).
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Originally posted by rshubert
Everyone is "afraid" to travel alone because if you get into a one-on-one with an enemy fighter, gain an advantage, he will call for help. Then it becomes a one-on two or three, and you get your arse shot down. That's not my idea of fun.
Know what you mean shubie. But are you going to pass on a one on one because of it ?? That's the rub. If it becomes a one on two or 3, it's doable. You'll prolly die, I usually do. But there are those times..
...those times when you take'um all.
That rocks.
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well hubert... I meant that people temd to "organize" into hordes on the maps with far fields to keep from being trapped over a sector away from friendlies in a plane that is slower that 10 guys who just upped from the base and the three that ar at alt waiting... you end up running with a dee 9 pee 51 and a bunch of spit fives all following yu with bloodlust since you are the only thing they have seen in the last 15 miutes.
or.. you go with six guys and you do ok but you are the last left and now in the same boat as described above..
with far fields the radar bar is useless... it doesn't tell you what you will find by the time you get there....lots of wasted trips.
lazs