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General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Slash27 on December 01, 2003, 02:13:05 AM

Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: Slash27 on December 01, 2003, 02:13:05 AM
Air them.
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: GRUNHERZ on December 01, 2003, 03:17:13 AM
The Bf110 are way too fast and fighting them in a Hurricane Mk1 is utter boredom...
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: chunder' on December 01, 2003, 01:02:14 PM
No complaints, I find the BoB/BoF aircraft to be an excellent matchup.
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: Corwin on December 01, 2003, 01:30:28 PM
I like it just the way it is.
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: Oldman731 on December 01, 2003, 03:57:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Corwin
I like it just the way it is.

Me, too.  This is a great plane set, except for those poor people who feel they must fly the P40B iron dog.

- oldman
Title: Re: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: Dennis on December 01, 2003, 04:01:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Slash27
Air them.


Why?

Anyway.  I don't have any.

Splash1
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: Slash27 on December 01, 2003, 04:26:17 PM
Anyway. I don't have any.  Then "WHY" are you posting? The reason I started this thread is because we were highjacking another thread to gripe about the plane set.


MGFF is all but useless, however by setting the convergence to 450m you get a decent concentration at D200m.  This is on the 109 correct?


 I think the Spit I should be available from all fields in the intrest of "balance". Historicaly correct or not. The 110 is just plane murder on the Hurri and the P-40.
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: Slash27 on December 01, 2003, 04:56:39 PM
Rgr. You have to work your butt off to land multiples in that 109. Thats why Im in the 110:D
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: Squire on December 01, 2003, 05:16:41 PM
Well the 110C-4/b never served in Battle of France, nor did the 109E-4, or the Ju 88A-4...so I would say leaving out the Spitfire I because it wasnt a BoF ride is a bit odd.

If we had the proper BoF 110C-3, some 20mph slower (@280-330max) it would be a different tune being sung.

I haven't tried the P-40B yet in there...is it anything special?
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: TheBug on December 01, 2003, 06:04:53 PM
I think the 110, Spit, Ju88 and lastly the Boston don't belong.  Wouldn't be too upset if the P40 was dropped as well.  I think the Hurri vs 109 is an excellent matchup and if each plane is flown to it's max potential will make for some very memorable flights.

I agree that the P40 is a very dangerous machine with alt, but try getting above a 109 that doesn't want you to.  You are now starting to talk pilot tactics and not plane set.  What a silly thing to do :)   j/k
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: TheBug on December 01, 2003, 06:32:57 PM
So does proper 109 flying.
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: Arlo on December 01, 2003, 07:15:55 PM
And then the complexion of the discussion changed and the mighty "uber P-40 Bravo" became not so mighty and not so uber and not really a plane worth complaining about (nor a point to jab the gawsh darned allied pilots about).

AAaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh ..... meeeeeeeeeen. :D
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: scJazz on December 01, 2003, 07:16:45 PM
The only gripe I have with this planeset is that we never get to do the middle of the road sets.

Spit V
Seafire
Hurri IIc
P38
P47D-25

AGAINST

190A5
190A8
190F8
109G6
109G2
109F4
110G2

Something like this... can't remember the last time I flew a Spit V in the CT. We've been doing alternating early war and late war with something in the Pacific thrown in to piss everyone off.
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: Arlo on December 01, 2003, 07:19:16 PM
The last time the Spit V was flown in the CT there was much gnashing of teeth and tearing of flesh and wearing of sack cloth. Ask the monk named Storch.

Ahhhhhhhh .... meeeeeeen. :D
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: scJazz on December 01, 2003, 07:52:34 PM
Let em wail and gnash... Spit Vs aren't that hard to kill. Fragile lil buggers. Fun to BnZ and leave them coughing in your wake turbulence. The key here is to make sure that the Axis planes are faster and that the allies get a choice for a faster but not so dang twisty plane. Then the problem becomes self limiting. They fly Spit Vs and the 109G6s come BnZ and then run away. They get sick of this and grab P38s. 109Fs play twisty fight with the P38. Ad Nauseum.
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: Slash27 on December 01, 2003, 09:42:44 PM
The only gripe I have with this planeset is that we never get to do the middle of the road sets.   Well vote The Bug "dikwad". Maybe he'll be receptive to it.:aok
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: Squirrel on December 01, 2003, 10:20:44 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Oldman731
Me, too.  This is a great plane set, except for those poor people who feel they must fly the P40B iron dog.


Hey, I resemble that remark :)   .. but wasnt the p39 the iron-dog and  the p40 the lead-sled?
Sqrl
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: snocone on December 02, 2003, 11:07:15 AM
I hate the c47 in here. last time I looked the axis had about 10 bases left out of alot of bases on this very large map. Hate the milkers. I had to fly the MA :mad: because the arena was so porked. I did kick alot of n00b arse there though. Just goes to show how much the ct makes you a better pilot. I only suck marginally now!
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: Batz on December 02, 2003, 12:24:39 PM
Maybe you guys to email or call Pyro and request he put a pop up poll when entering the ct asking who prefers base capture.

You could do an unofficial poll on the forum but some folks dont read the forum.

fyi the d25 a8 and f8 are not "middle" of the road planesets they are late war.

The ju88 and 110 should be restricted or removed fromt his setup.

Same with the Boston and spit 1.
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: Dennis on December 02, 2003, 03:24:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Slash27
 Then "WHY" are you posting? The reason I started this thread is because we were highjacking another thread to gripe about the plane set.


Thanks for the answer.  I asked the dreaded "w" question because I wondered why you wanted to start another gripefest.  We seem to have plenty without solicitation.

I don't read every thread.  Might have missed the hijacked one.  Sorry.

Anyway.  No gripes here about the planeset.  Axis deserves a crutch ride or two every once in a while.
And I like the Hurricane.

Splash1
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: brady on December 02, 2003, 03:29:24 PM
The P38L we have is also a Late war plane.
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: LtMagee on December 02, 2003, 07:36:41 PM
I really like this set up.

The P-40B is well modeled for the Hawk 75A-3.  With six guns and a top speed at 10,000 feet of about 325mph.

The 110 is a bit fast but thats ok. The 109 may be porked but funny, most all of my kills in the P-40 are 110s. Most of my deaths have been from 109s or M3s..lol (BigMax)

Contrary to storchs remarks, I have seen 110s landing 6 to 8 kill sorties. Very few allies are landing kills, even in the Hurrican.

I have a very hard time getting on a 109s six, a 110 is a slight bit better chance of killing 1 vs 1.....however, once in a fight, there is no going home for a P-40 unless the axis pilots give up and run.
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: Slash27 on December 02, 2003, 07:38:40 PM
Brady

  How about restricting the 110 or unrestricting the Spit? The 110 may as well be a La7 in here.
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: brady on December 02, 2003, 09:04:17 PM
While I agree that you are a skilled Player, and that you (slash) can indead land good kill streaks, I have sean the same kinda streaks landed in evey fighter in the setup, I have no plans at present to change the set up.
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: tzr on December 02, 2003, 09:33:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by brady
While I agree that you are a skilled Player, and that you (slash) can indead land good kill streaks, I have sean the same kinda streaks landed in evey fighter in the setup, I have no plans at present to change the set up.


SO he leaves the 110 in    Ok by me.......
I wonder if in the next PTO late war set up the allies will get the C-Hog.......am-5vs Chog .....It would be the same as P-40 vs 110

will have to wait and see:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: Karnak on December 02, 2003, 09:55:52 PM
Quote
Originally posted by scJazz
Spit V
Seafire
Hurri IIc
P38
P47D-25

AGAINST

190A5
190A8
190F8
109G6
109G2
109F4
110G2

:eek: That's midwar?

Spit V - 1941
Seafire - 1942
Hurri IIc - 1941
P38L - 1944
P47D-25 - 1944

AGAINST

190A5 - 1943
190A8 - 1944
190F8 - 1944
109G6 - 1943
109G2 - 1942
109F4 - 1941
110G2 - 1943


That is all over the place, certainly not mid war.  The poor Brits haven't even really got anything post Pearl Harbor (concidering that the Seafire is a lashed up Spitfire V).

The problem with doing mid war Europe is, bluntly, that there are no mid war American aircraft for the European Theater.  Mid war setups therefore really end up being a 1942 Spitfire F.Mk IX against a 1943 Fw190A-5 with an early 1944 P-47D-11 (minus paddle bladed prop) for the Americans as a consolation prize.

What we need for 1942/1943 Europe:

P-38F
P-38H
P-47D-5 (give the P-47D-11 its paddle bladed prop)
B-17E or F
B-25C

Then we could have a nice 1942 setup:

Boston Mk III
Hurricane Mk IIc
Lancaster Mk III (perked)
Spitfire Mk Vb

B-17E (perked)
B-25C
P-38F
P-40E

vs.

Bf109F-4
Bf-109G-2
Fw190A-5
Ju88A-4


Or a nice 1943 setup:

Boston Mk III
Lancaster Mk III
Mosquito Mk VI
Spitfire Mk IX

B-17E
B-26B
P-38H
P-47D-5

vs.

Bf109F-4
Bf109G-2
Bf109G-6
Bf110G-2
Fw190A-5
Fw190A-8
Fw190F-8
Ju88A-4


Yes, there are still fudges in both of those, but they don't include 1944 aircraft in 1942 setups.
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: TheBug on December 02, 2003, 10:23:05 PM
Just a quick look at stats 11pm Tues:


P40 Kills= 102  losses=135

Hurri Kills=183 losses=202

Spit kills=28 losses=11

109 kills = 161 losses=150

110 kills=236 losses=140   :confused:

Allies Kill to loss ratio for all fighter planes is .89

LW ratio is 1.37

Spitfire ratio is 2.54(restricted plane)

110 ratio is 1.69

What are the magic numbers Brady uses as his ingenious "play-balance".  Is there any method to his madness?  Do these stats all fall within what he considers good play balance?? Stay tuned....


110c4 in AH does not belong in any 1940 BoF setup, period. Take the Spit with it too. Maybe restrict both for any BoB setups.

Hurri  K/L ratio is  .91
109 K/L ratio is    1.07

Now that's play balance to me


Sorry those numbers just for two days, tour just reset

But from last tour 109e 377 kills of Hurri vs 396 109e kills by Hurri

110c 423 kills of Hurri       Hurri 292 kills of 110

110 vs p40  ya get 161/121

So even though they were only two days of stats they still hold water


Vote Bug:aok
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: Batz on December 02, 2003, 10:46:58 PM
Quote
That's midwar?

Spit V - 1941
Seafire - 1942
Hurri IIc - 1941
P38L - 1944
P47D-25 - 1944

AGAINST

190A5 - 1943
190A8 - 1944
190F8 - 1944
109G6 - 1943
109G2 - 1942
109F4 - 1941
110G2 - 1943


That is all over the place, certainly not mid war. The poor Brits haven't even really got anything post Pearl Harbor (concidering that the Seafire is a lashed up Spitfire V).

The problem with doing mid war Europe is, bluntly, that there are no mid war American aircraft for the European Theater. Mid war setups therefore really end up being a 1942 Spitfire F.Mk IX against a 1943 Fw190A-5 with an early 1944 P-47D-11 (minus paddle bladed prop) for the Americans as a consolation prize.

What we need for 1942/1943 Europe:

P-38F
P-38H
P-47D-5 (give the P-47D-11 its paddle bladed prop)
B-17E or F
B-25C

Then we could have a nice 1942 setup:

Boston Mk III
Hurricane Mk IIc
Lancaster Mk III (perked)
Spitfire Mk Vb

B-17E (perked)
B-25C
P-38F
P-40E

vs.

Bf109F-4
Bf-109G-2
Fw190A-5
Ju88A-4


Or a nice 1943 setup:

Boston Mk III
Lancaster Mk III
Mosquito Mk VI
Spitfire Mk IX

B-17E
B-26B
P-38H
P-47D-5

vs.

Bf109F-4
Bf109G-2
Bf109G-6
Bf110G-2
Fw190A-5
Fw190A-8
Fw190F-8
Ju88A-4


Yes, there are still fudges in both of those, but they don't include 1944 aircraft in 1942 setups.


The a8 and f8 arent 44 aircraft?:p

Seriously the a5 is better then both of those and can stand in for the a6.

The d11 is a fine sub for a d5. I wish we had a C. The p38 OTOH needs more variants. Theres not much you can do with a p38l.

Its gonna be awhile before ya get more planes in AH.
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: Slash27 on December 02, 2003, 10:47:31 PM
While I agree that you are a skilled Player, and that you (slash) can indead land good kill streaks, I have sean the same kinda streaks landed in evey fighter in the setup, I have no plans at present to change the set up.

Thanks for the compliment, but......  I have seen no one land 5,6,and 7 kill sorties in any Allied rides. I have landed several multiple kill sorties ( most over 4) and have not been shot down once in the 110. Ive only died twice due to coillisions in this set up. This does not reflect superior talent on my part, but it does show inbalance. But leave it in, Ill still fly it.:aok
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: LtMagee on December 02, 2003, 11:10:30 PM
Quote
I wonder if in the next PTO late war set up the allies will get the C-Hog.......am-5vs Chog .....It would be the same as P-40 vs 110


THIS IS THE QUOTE I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR. THANKS TZR!
LETS ROCK, F4F, F4U, F6F vs A6M2, A6M5...typical PTO BATTLES !!!
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: Arlo on December 02, 2003, 11:22:50 PM
Heh ... all I ever wanted was a regular showing of the F4U-1 in a Pac setting (any and all IJ aircraft ... even subbing something for the Ki-84 until it hopefully ... eventually ... gets modeled). VF-17 would regularly attend ... I'll pretty much guarantee. :D
Title: KNIGHTS CROSS
Post by: KCDitto on December 03, 2003, 12:32:44 AM
WOW!

That was a long read......

I flying the 109 can honestly say that what Ihave seen so far is a HURRICANE fest.

I drop down from my 10K perch only to find 4 or 5 hurricanes on me and once you give up that alt you are dead meat to a hurricane on your 6.

I have managed to escape a few times but for the most part I hear a constant ping of those annoying little guns :) untlill I lose a piece of my airplane and go down in flames.

Now Sunday I did have a great fight with 68 in his hurri and me in a 109 at 21K. I found at that alt the 109 could turn with the Hurri. But as "PAPPY" said all furballs gravitate DOWN and we ended up fighting on the deck and I managed to get him with a shap shot but I was losing at that point.

The A-20 in this set up is VERY FAST, now I guess if I flew the 110 I could catch em but in the 109 no chance.

The bottom line is I guess are you having fun?

HELL YEA I AM!

How about you ?

ARE YOU HAVING FUN???????

SEE YOU ALL UP!

kcDITTO
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: straffo on December 03, 2003, 02:44:12 AM
Without any of this : MS406,MB151,MB152 ,D520,Potez 631,br691,Léo451 it's a no go.
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: straffo on December 03, 2003, 07:51:03 AM
Quote
Originally posted by storch
Does Straffo ever enter the CT ? Why are you posting a thread?

I agree with Magee and Arlo give them the F4U as much as they want.  I don't see why it's not in every mid to late PTO set up. I'd rather see a low F4U than any other type.  They flame real nice.

I believe the Marines flew it the most but two Navy squadrons did as well.


I do try from try to time ,but I've never seen more than 10 people in the CT and I cannot wait to see the number grow cause I've to work and looking at people milkrunning is not what I prefer.

I would love to see more number in the CT but in my TZ it's a no go too :(

Except when it's a finnish setup but in general I'm away for work when this kind of setup is up in the CT.
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: humble on December 03, 2003, 04:18:41 PM
I've had more than a few good fights vs the 110 in both P-40 and hurricane. Overall i'm amazed the germans survived 1940. The 109 is a piece of junk and the 110 is dogfood if it loses it's E. Obviously the 110 is competitive in the unrealistic enviornment we have in the CT. But it's easy to see why they required there own escort by the end of BoB. Give them a bomber stream to protect and get the allies airborne and "vectored" in above them and you have a slaughter.

The german plane set as a whole promotes (and is designed) for a B&Z fighting style...obviously the timid (er smart) player can pick and choose his fights in the CT in the 110...however if you flew like that in 1940 and let your bomber stream die you'd be shot when you landed (trust me it did happen more than once). In real life the germans were tied to the bomber stream in a close escort role a lot of the time and suffered accordingly.

azhacker
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: Slash27 on December 03, 2003, 08:45:59 PM
obviously the timid :rofl
Title: Plane set gripes for BoF
Post by: humble on December 04, 2003, 11:31:51 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Slash27
obviously the timid :rofl


Comment wasn't actually aimed at you...or any one else. the 110 (in this set up) has the best gun package and top speed (I believe)...certainly is faster than anything (fighter) the allies can throw up. Since the allies are pretty much a .303 gun set the 110 can ignore the threat of the "face shot" that makes later spitties and hurricanes a threat even in a Neg E state. Flown conservatively the 110 should rack up pretty impressive numbers against the early war plane set.