Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sparks on December 01, 2003, 03:48:23 AM
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Ok so we all agree that holding the phone to your ear while driving is "A Bad Thing". Not going to argue that point.
But stuck in a traffic jam ??? Or parked up with you engine running ??????? AND now they are not sure if hey are happy using a hands-free !!!!! Jesus H Krist are we capable of doing ANYTHING without it being approved by law??
So are they going to legislate specifically about eating a Macdonalds while you're driving or how about smoking ?? - Any research about how many accidents have been caused by studmuffin ends being dropped in a drivers lap?? How about changing the radio station or putting in a CD ??? Or god forbid you may be talking to a passenger in the car.
So I think to be completely safe we should require that the driver be behind glass acoustic screens with no visual or uadio access to the interior of the car and definitely no entertainment system. Also new cars should by law have pressure sensors on the steering wheel so that if you take a hand off the wheel without good cause (gear shift not seen operating within X seconds) then the ignition cuts out and a report is sent automatically to the police by satcom so the Dangerous Driving penalty can be mailed direct.
And so the relentless march to replace individual responsibilty with legislation continues - god help us.
Sparks
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I know how you feel, Sparks. But I have been at the receiving end of some very bad driving when the other driver is clearly switched off. For one thing, forget about any turn signals. One time, I was clockwise on the M25 coming home from Gatwick when I saw a car sitting in lane 4 at a steady 60mph. Nothing in lane 3 except me. After about a minute of waiting to get by, I decided to pass in lane 3. Yeah I know it's naughty, but so is lane hogging. But just as I was about to go through, the lane 4 car moved into lane 3 - no signal. As I passed in lane 4, I saw that the driver was a woman in her 60s holding a phone to her ear. She was clearly oblivious to the traffic around her.
I've just been reading about the new law in the Telegraph.
Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/12/01/nmob01.xmlDepartment for Transport research reveals that drivers are four times more likely to have an accident if using a mobile at the wheel.
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents says that at least 20 Britons have been killed in road crashes in which one or other driver was on the phone.
The society, which is campaigning for hands-free equipment also to be made illegal, criticised the late rush to the shops.
"Many motorists seem more interested in trying to find ways to continue making calls rather than accepting that any phone conversation makes you much more likely to crash," said Kevin Clinton, the head of road safety.
"There is little point having both hands connected to the steering wheel if the brain is not connected to the hands."
How the new law works (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/12/01/nmob201.xml)
I think people will adjust to it, just as they adjusted to the new seatbelt law - 1.Jan,1983. And the helmet law - 1.Jan,1976.
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But Beetle your story and then that article following EXACTLY demonstrates what I am on about.
Yes I agree that holding a phone is a bad thing and I said that. But how is a phone conversation more likely to be more distracting than any other ...rather than accepting that any phone conversation makes you much more likely to crash,"
However, hands-free users could fall foul of existing legislation for "failing to have proper control of a vehicle" if they became so distracted by the conversation that their driving was impaired. Anyone involved in an accident while using a hands-free phone might be vulnerable to charges of careless or dangerous driving. Safety campaigners continue to lobby the Government to make all types of mobile unlawful while at the wheel.
So how do you determine that it was the phone conversation distracting the driver and not the kids in the back fighting ????
Maybe we should ban young men having attractive girls in the car - or maybe make it illegal for young women to wear skirts shorter than a certain length if they are getting in a car - any research on the number of fatalities involving young men with young women in the car - ooooh must be dangerous. :rolleyes:
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents says that at least 20 Britons have been killed in road crashes in which one or other driver was on the phone.
So where is the data on other causes - how many people killed while loading a CD, or changing radio stations, or looking for a lighter, or dropping a glowing studmuffin end.
Here is the key point everyone forgets"There is little point having both hands connected to the steering wheel if the brain is not connected to the hands."
By not having your brain connected to your hands you are "Driving Without Due Care and Attention" and who'd have guessed - there's a law against that already. So if you cause an accident because you were drivng with you head up your arse on the phone then YOU are responsible because YOU were not driving with due care and attention.
But now we have specific legislation that says its only dangerous if you are holding a phone - hamburger is ok - must be - no law against it - cigarette is ok - must be - no law against it - girl freind giving you one - thats ok too. Hells bells they even define that its dangerous (against the law) if you are parked with your engine running - after all you may drive off without knowing..............
So I say lets get ROSPA to investigate the next big accident cause - BAN SMOKING WHILE YOU ARE DRIVING !!! I wonder how far that one would fly.
I tell you what, lets do it the other way round - lets enact legislation that only lets you drive a car a certain way and we have monitoring systems that report you if you don't. Thou shalt have both hands on the wheel 95% of the time as monitored by sensors - thou shalt maintain speeds as laid down by GPS mapping - thou shalt only carry out those communications verbal or otherwise necessary to drive the car.
As I said ................. god help us.
Sparks
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it's not the phone so much as the phone in the left hand, with an open folder of paperwork in the lap, and the right hand is typing on the laptop sitting on the seat, while they stear with the left knee.
that and women, looking in the rearview, putting on make-up while driving.
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Maybe we should ban young men having attractive girls in the car - or maybe make it illegal for young women to wear skirts shorter than a certain length if they are getting in a car - any research on the number of fatalities involving young men with young women in the car - ooooh must be dangerous.
:lol
AFAIK smoking IS banned while driving in cities - in Norway.
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Originally posted by Sparks
So I think to be completely safe we should require that the driver be behind glass acoustic screens with no visual or uadio access to the interior of the car and definitely no entertainment system.
That's exactly what I thought. Of course, then there would have to be some method of making sure the driver stayed awake without anything to keep his/her mind active when driving on motorways/freeways..... :rolleyes:
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in england I believe it is illegal to eat or drink in your car. I don't know how they tune their radios or work their heaters over there but apparently they can't drink out of a sport top bottle and drive at the same time! at least.... their nanny government and wussy voters don't think so.
as for the cell phones.... I have noticed a distinct difference between someone talking on the phone or to someone in person... in person... it is no big deal... on the phone... people seem to disconnect with the world around them... they glaze over either thinking or trying to picture the other persons face... people talking on the phone are really not there with the rest of us.... honest people will admit this.
lazs
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Funny I should see this thread. I was almost hit head-on saturday evening by someone driving the wrong way on a ONE-WAY street!!! :mad:
Luckily they realized due to my High beams, Horn Blaring, and the chatter chirps of my ABS system.
I managed to get a look at the driver, sure enough on the Friggin cell phone, without hands-free. :mad:
Time to build that EMP gun:mad:
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their nanny government and wussy voters don't think so.
lol
Hey, beetle has already taught us that the average Brit can't multi-task. He can't think and type at the same time. hahahahahah
dago
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Originally posted by Dago
Hey, beetle has already taught us that the average Brit can't multi-task. He can't think and type at the same time.
hmmm seems then the average American can't read :rolleyes:
originally posted by DingbatI managed to get a look at the driver, sure enough on the Friggin cell phone, without hands-free
Originally posted by SparksYes I agree that holding a phone is a bad thing and I said that
Ok so we all agree that holding the phone to your ear while driving is "A Bad Thing". Not going to argue that point.
Now on to Lazs ..... no it's not "illegal" to eat or drink in your car - read my post you may realise that - not illegal YET and thats the point. Your right the wussy government don't think we are able but don't assume the "wussy voters" agree. What these "wussy voters" are looking for is a real leader who deserves our vote. The bunch of PC wasters we have on offer now are a disgrace to democracy.
And then comes the usual "holier than thou" final shot ......I have noticed a distinct difference between someone talking on the phone or to someone in person... in person... it is no big deal... on the phone... people seem to disconnect with the world around them... they glaze over either thinking or trying to picture the other persons face... people talking on the phone are really not there with the rest of us.... honest people will admit this.
insinuation of course that Lazs is honest and anyone who disagrees is a lying bastige............
I guess I'm a delusional lying bastige because I disagree with you - I can have a conversation on the phone as easily as with someone in the car. However I've seen lots of manly non-wussy people who smoke nearly throw cars in ditches trying to light a cigarette with their elbows only on the wheel - oh and then drive one handed the whole time they smoke it.
Let me remind you that you big manly voters have elected your fair share of idiots and have your fair share of bizarre legislation - e.g. I lived in a state where you could drive a car at 16, carry a gun and kill people for your country at eighteen but apparently you're not safe with a drink until you're 21 ?????
Sparks (sick of people)
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Sparks welcome to the nanny state. They are putting training wheels on life. The lowest common denominator rules.
End womens' suffrage.
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Originally posted by lazs2
in england I believe it is illegal to eat or drink in your car. I don't know how they tune their radios or work their heaters over there but apparently they can't drink out of a sport top bottle and drive at the same time! at least.... their nanny government and wussy voters don't think so.
as for the cell phones.... I have noticed a distinct difference between someone talking on the phone or to someone in person... in person... it is no big deal... on the phone... people seem to disconnect with the world around them... they glaze over either thinking or trying to picture the other persons face... people talking on the phone are really not there with the rest of us.... honest people will admit this.
lazs
except for the wussy comment i agree with you...there shouldent have to be laws against those sorts of things...common sense is common sense and the government shouldent have to define it...but theres always someone willing to become a darwin...
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Sparks
You said this oh and then drive one handed the whole time
So you drive with both hands on the wheel all the time? You consider not having both hands on the wheel a safety issue?
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Sparks
You said this
So you drive with both hands on the wheel all the time? You consider not having both hands on the wheel a safety issue?
only if you dont have power assisted steering
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sooo.... it is not illeagal to eat and drink while driving in england?
sparks... there is a difference between talking on the phone and talking to someone in person. that's all there is to it.
I would not make it illegal to talk on the phone while driving but it should be an insurance risk and any tickets you got while being on the phone should have the fines doubled or trippled. If you kill someone or injure someone it should be admissable in court that you were impaired.
lazs
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So you drive with both hands on the wheel all the time? You consider not having both hands on the wheel a safety issue?
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhh ????!!!
That was my point ........ I consider it just as big an issue as holding a mobile phone. I consider it safe to talk on a hands free phone however - note that word - I DO consider it an equal or greater risk to drive one handed with a cigarette than hold a mobile phone.
Again - HOWEVER - I wouldn't want legislation just personal responsibilty for the consequences under exisiting law
I give up.
Sparks
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Originally posted by Sparks
hmmm seems then the average American can't read
quote:
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I managed to get a look at the driver, sure enough on the Friggin cell phone, without hands-free
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It's obvious that you can't fathom the meaning of context either. I was telling a story with details. Hand's free or non-hands free was not the topic of my rage. The fact was that he was on his cell phone was my point. So please don't take things out of context and pervert them to suit your argument.
BTW, I'm not your Average American, I have a voice and I use it when and where I feel necessary.
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Sparks
So you have both hands on the wheel at all times when you are driving? When you can, and you think it unsafe otherwise?
I find that amusing, I drive with one hand most of the time, and use both when they are needed, I watch the road and the people around me like a hawk, that is the only way to stay safe when driving.
I am not trying to pick on ya, but I just have this image of a flustered sweating pale man, both hands clamped to the wheel with white knuckles, at th edge of panic when he has to reach for the radio button swearing at all the people on cells!
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Lazs
I agree with you.
My point is there is enough law to do the job already. If you have an accident for ANY reason that they can prove was because you had your head up your bellybutton or unable to control the vehicle - phone, controlling kids, putting the fire in your lap out - whatever - then you should take the responsibilty for it and maybe just maybe if some people got charged with vehicular manslaughter more often then maybe just maybe people would think harder about what they do.
So what do our nanny government do - lets have more law because there obviously isn't enough because accidents are still happening.
And so the more detailed stupid arse laws are created the more people believe they can't be responsible for anything if they stay inside the law.
I still disagree with you about talking on the phone.
SParks
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guess Americans are different... everytime I see someone weaving or screwing up traffic or doing something really stupid... I look and they have a cell phone stuck in their ear taking one more life or death call.
but I agree... personal responsibility... if he is pulled over for weaving and has a cell phone... tripple the fine. double the 'points' on his licence. He will get better at multitasking or he will only have to walk and talk on the cell phone....say... anyone notice... lot of these self important cell phone users can't even walk and talk on the cell phone without causing problems for everyone around them.
lazs
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
...I just have this image of a flustered sweating pale man, both hands clamped to the wheel with white knuckles, at th edge of panic when he has to reach for the radio button swearing at all the people on cells!
So thats what turns ya on?
-SW
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AKS\/\/ulfe
LoL no.
I am not sure where that came from. Are you hitting on me? Are you the man I desribed? Maybe Dowding can help you.
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Originally posted by lazs2
sooo.... it is not illeagal to eat and drink while driving in england?
sparks... there is a difference between talking on the phone and talking to someone in person. that's all there is to it.
I would not make it illegal to talk on the phone while driving but it should be an insurance risk and any tickets you got while being on the phone should have the fines doubled or trippled. If you kill someone or injure someone it should be admissable in court that you were impaired.
lazs
Why does it matter what the cause is? If you're at fault, you're at fault. This is almost as dumb as "hate crime" laws.
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Dingbat - context ?? - I had raised a disussion which specifically bypassed the argument about the safety of using a hand held phone and your short response specifically included it. maybe I put too much importance on that ?
Dago's response also cranked me up ................ Dago don't you guys ever get tired of raising everything as a Brit US thing ???
GtoRA2 - glad you find it amusing - yes I do most definitely find it a safety issue but no I'm not a flustered panicing dweeb as you like to imagine. You don't have to be gripping the wheel like a lunatic with white knuckles but if your hand is out the window when your tyre goes you are going to be well out of shape before you get it back on. Just when I'm doing 85 or 90 on the freeway I'd like to thing I can keep things a bit more under control if anything happens - heard of blowouts ?? I went on a short racing instruction course last year - first point they emphasised was your hands stay on the wheel. Instructor told a story of taping a young guys hands to the wheel and changing gear for him because he used to rest his hand on the gear shift. Maybe thats why you have 55 or 60 limits ??
And no I wouldn't want laws about keeping your hands on the wheel but if you lost control of your car and killed my kid and a witness testified that you had one hand out the window when it happened you'd better believe I'd want your bellybutton in jail.
Just my take.
I am not trying to pick on ya, but ....
BTW I#m a firm believer in the phrase that a salesman taught me - "Everything before a but is bull****"
Sparks
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if your stupid enough to do something that takes your focus away from the road (putting in a new cd,changing radio station and talking to other people in the car really doesnt do that...the first 2 take all of 3 seconds and take away about as much attention as changing gears in a standard the 3rd is no more distracting than singing along to the song on the radio) you get what you deserve...though the guy you just smashed into probably didnt
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Blowout?
Had one right front, handled it fine, the instant it took me to get both hands on the wheel was not enough to have things get out of hand. I was going 65 at on a freeway.
The speed limit varies in calli, but most major highways are 65 or 70.
driving with two hands on the wheel does not make you a better driver, knowing what goes on around you does. I think they should make the test much harder then it is now. I have seen people do amazingly dumb things behind the wheel of a car, and some even had two hands on the wheel.
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OK Vorticon - yep you do get what you deserve - my point of ALL this is we don't need MORE law. What we have already covers it they just won't use it.
But to maybe counter your examples:-
Change a CD - open the holder / case - browse titles - get it out of case - eject old one and put it somewhere - put new one in - put old one away. Not a 3 second job for most I've seen. Saw a case of guy on Rescue 911 (or Brit equivalent) who ran into back of a truck changing a tape - had to be cut out.
Changing Radio station - how many times do you get a station you like on first attempt?? - look down to see if you hit wrong button ??
Talking to other people - as distracting as anything else - ever looked in the rear view mirror to talk to some one in the back - I don't believe you if you say no :). Laughing at a joke ??
No-one wins if you screw up because you weren't paying attention but nanny pedantic laws are not the answer.
Sparks
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Gto - I'll go with the professional instructors view - both hands on the wheel AND knowing whats going on around is the best point to start from to give yourself the best chance when things go wrong.
Sparks
Going to fly for a bit now ......
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Originally posted by Sparks
OK Vorticon - yep you do get what you deserve - my point of ALL this is we don't need MORE law. What we have already covers it they just won't use it.
But to maybe counter your examples:-
Change a CD - open the holder / case - browse titles - get it out of case - eject old one and put it somewhere - put new one in - put old one away. Not a 3 second job for most I've seen. Saw a case of guy on Rescue 911 (or Brit equivalent) who ran into back of a truck changing a tape - had to be cut out.
Changing Radio station - how many times do you get a station you like on first attempt?? - look down to see if you hit wrong button ??
Talking to other people - as distracting as anything else - ever looked in the rear view mirror to talk to some one in the back - I don't believe you if you say no :). Laughing at a joke ??
No-one wins if you screw up because you weren't paying attention but nanny pedantic laws are not the answer.
Sparks
just because i havetime on my hands im going to counter your arguments (i agree with you completly...except on some minor details)
1. those people are doing it wrong...up here we just keep our cd cases open...all we do is pull it out press eject and pop the next one in...and were teenagers (the ones who are supposed to do stupid things)
2. twist the knob...or press one of your preprogrammed buttons that take it to one of the radio stations you like (we have em in a 1980 subaru...they should still have em now) it takes no time at all to punch the next button if you missed...
3. yep i have...while i was at it i noticed a guy tailgateing me, noticed a open spot and sped up so that i would have the accepted safe distance of 3 seconds between the cars
when was the last time any of you opened up your basic operators manual? how many of you would pass (get no more than 3 wrong) if you had to take your written exam tomorrow?
more laws arnt the answer...better driver training programs are
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Originally posted by Dago
Hey, beetle has already taught us that the average Brit can't multi-task. He can't think and type at the same time.
LOL! You got me there. I can't type and do anything else at the same time. But as a multi-tasking expert, I bet you can. We already know you're a one-handed typist without your having to tell us! :lol
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funked... I don't see any problem with making the fines/sentances higher for someone who is deliberatly putting people in danger. A wreck where the guy can be proved to have been setting all his stations on the radio or reading or putting on makeup or not paying attention long enough to crash or cause a crash should have increased penalties if it is able to be proved.
I think a cell phone, hands free or not... is very distracting.. if you are very good and/or very careful, it won't matter that much but if someone seen you on the phone or with your head down working the radio when you crashed... same for women putting on makeup or men shaving.
lazs
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Sorry Sparks but the way you formated it, it appeared that you were insulting me, with the comment that "American's can't read."
If that was not directed at me then, I'm sorry.
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The police are money grabbing thieves more concerned with taxing Mr. Average than catching burglars.
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Any research about how many accidents have been caused by studmuffin ends being dropped in a drivers lap??
[/i]
rofl!
sorry, the slang translation across the pond makes that statement hilarious :D
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Originally posted by Octavius
[/i]sorry, the slang translation across the pond makes that statement hilarious :D
LOL, Oct! I know what you mean. I saw a guy in the MA yesterday proclaim that he was new to AH. He said "I've only been on the game a couple of weeks" :lol
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SYSTEM:
Beet1e, sensors detect that you are typing without securing the seat belt on your office chair.
Please correct this deficiency immediately or your block chairman will be notified.
Thank you and have a nice day!
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Originally posted by lazs2
in england I believe it is illegal to eat or drink in your car. I don't know how they tune their radios or work their heaters over there but apparently they can't drink out of a sport top bottle and drive at the same time! at least.... their nanny government and wussy voters don't think so.
as for the cell phones.... I have noticed a distinct difference between someone talking on the phone or to someone in person... in person... it is no big deal... on the phone... people seem to disconnect with the world around them... they glaze over either thinking or trying to picture the other persons face... people talking on the phone are really not there with the rest of us.... honest people will admit this.
lazs
I beg to differ....I am constantly glazed over and don't you forget it!
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I think I'm the minority here but...
I don't care if you are stopped, traffic jammed, screwing in your car behind K-Mart...why does everyone insist on using a cell phone all the time?
It seems that most people have ADD or don't feel confortable with themselves without the constant reassurance that a voice on the other end of the phone brings. And what is really that important that a cell phone must be glued to your ears? How you got dissed at the bar from the hot chick? Who stole your boy/girlfriend? Reminds me of superficial girls who aren't happy unless they are told constantly how beautiful they are.
I don't own a cell phone. If you don't know how to reach me when I'm at home, etc, then you don't need to reach me.
And yes, I used to use one for work when I traveled. Occupational hazard as far as I'm concerned.
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Hehe Mr. Toad! I have just looked up and seen that both the fasten seat belt and the no smoking signs are illuminated. And the toilets are no longer in use. ;)
Drunky - I agree entirely. The main thing is, all phone service providers include voicemail as part of the service. If my cellphone rings while I'm driving, I just let it divert to voicemail and then pick up the message after I have stopped and parked.