Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: brady on December 02, 2003, 04:28:54 PM
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???
(http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/115896/0.jpg)
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Jochiem Peiper
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its a nazi
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some SS geezer.
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Peiper, it is:)
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Originally posted by spitfire708
its a nazi
Do you have proof? If not then why paint with such a broad brush? Sure many citizens and military personnel for Germany during WW2 were members of the Nazi party. Also many others were members simply to stay "out of sight, out of mind". Remember this; those men were fighting for their country for the exact same reason that US, British, etc... fought for their own country...
That reason was they thought their leader's way was the right way and all because they had a leader who had convinced every man, woman and child that they were in the right and everyone else was wrong. Not to mention had a secret police force that was suspicious of everyone in the country. And that was one reason for a large majority of the military personnel who were high profile to be members of the party; to be out of suspicion.
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LOL
he was as as nazi as they come...
Read up on it.
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If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a duck.
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Reschke did you notice it was a SS ?
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Originally posted by Reschke
Do you have proof? If not then why paint with such a broad brush? Sure many citizens and military personnel for Germany during WW2 were members of the Nazi party. Also many others were members simply to stay "out of sight, out of mind". Remember this; those men were fighting for their country for the exact same reason that US, British, etc... fought for their own country...
Yer kidding right Reschke? Joachim Peiper was Commander of the 1st Liebstandarte Regiment. That'd be the 1st SS, Adolf Hitler, Hitler's Bodyguard etc etc.
Yep, he was just some ordinary Joe, fighting for his country, who swore no blood oath to Hitler etc etc. Just an out of sight, out of mind kinda guy old Joachim Peiper. That old Final Solution stuff was just a guy fighting for his country. Yep they tripped and fell into Poland, Czecheslovakia, Belgium, Holland, France, Russia etc etc etc. They needed more room for golf courses.
GAWD the apologists for these guys are everywhere.
Do a little reading up on this will ya? It's fascinating stuff. All kinds of books on the SS out there. They were a bit different then the Wehrmacht for example. Had a different approach to things and a different loyalty.
Quoting from "Soldiers of Destruction" by Charles Sydnor.
"SS soldiers attended several lectures weekly and were told repeatedly that the goal of their training was to shape them into political soldiers of the fuhrer
Political training was divided into three broad areas. The first dealt with the history of the Nazi Party, and included an examination of the party program. The second involved the history and racial beliefs of the SS. The third and most important part required a careful analysis of the enemies of National Socialism. In order of importance these were: 1-Jews, 2-Fremasonry, 3-Bolshevism and 4-The churches."
And in case you are going to tell me that is just the author's opinion, he is taking the information from SS circular orders from March of 1937.
I'll tell ya what. e-mail me at dlj447@frontiernet.net and if you want I'll loan you my copy of the Division history of the 2nd SS that I have. It's a fascinating look into the minds of those guys. I've got some 1st SS stuff too. I went through my phase of trying to understand how those guys came about a long time ago.
Dan/Slack
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Yes I noticed the SS and yes I know he was a died in the wool nazi blockhead.
No I am not an "apologist"; I just don't think its right to categorize every person who fought for Germany in WW2 as a Nazi. The same way as I don't think its right to label everyone who fought for the Allies as heroes or the Italians as Fascists, etc...
I work for a German corporation here in the US and my Boss became a Hitler Youth during the war. To have him tell how his father was treated as a non-Nazi during that time is amazing. His father and mother were not members of the Nazi party but their only son (my boss) was a member of the Hitler Youth. During this early part of his life he has told me how the other Hitler Youth who were older would push him to leave his parents and live with them. I have heard many things that break my heart as a parent that he was asked to do and pressured into doing. I also know from his first hand account of what it was like to be a member of that organization and have to get prepared as a young boy for the final defense. Luckily for him he was not sent to fight in that time.
On another note from that same vein he had an employer in the 60's or 70's who had been the youngest officer ever to be on the General Staff of the Luftwaffe. He was an example of what I mentioned in this thread earlier. Not every high profile member of the military was a loyal member of the Nazi party.
Mine is not about trying to understand them or figure them out. From my own viewpoint I personally think it is wrong to categorize everyone who served in any one nations service in one way or the other. Having met many veterans of German, US, British and Italian service. I know that those men hold each other in higher regard than we will ever begin to understand. Both my grandfathers were in the military in the South Pacific and one of my wife's great uncles fought for Italy and another for Germany before moving to the US after the war. I have heard first hand accounts of many of the units and know that the men who were with them only fought for country and honor and nothing else.
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No one was categorizing all of them. This was a reference to the Nazi in the photo and there is no question as to where his loyalties lay.
I remember well, back in the early 70s when I was a teenager, having a minister speak at our church. His name was Hagan Stack and he had fought on the Russian Front in WW2. He vividly described the moment he made his decision. He'd jumped into a trench and got there the same time as a Russian soldier. He got his shot off first and killed the man, and then was stuck with him, ala All Quiet on the Western Front. He too went through the man's wallet and saw the photo of the wife and kids. He knew then that he couldn't continue and ended up surrendering and spent 10 years in a Russian POW camp. He knew the cause was wrong and made his stand at an incredible price, and carried the memory of that moment with him always.
That being said, you throw a photo of an SS man up and he's a Nazi.
Dan/Slack
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OK, we can compromise.
he was a nazi with a conscience, he shed a tear in private with every death camp report that crossed his desk.
Everybody make happy now, see ya up!
gainsie
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Originally posted by Reschke
That reason was they thought their leader's way was the right way and all because they had a leader who had convinced every man, woman and child that they were in the right and everyone else was wrong. Not to mention had a secret police force that was suspicious of everyone in the country. And that was one reason for a large majority of the military personnel who were high profile to be members of the party; to be out of suspicion.
Are we talking about Germany, or our leaders, and the Patriot Act? :lol :rolleyes:
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still he was SS!!!! I admit that most people in the Army/Navy/Luftwaffe did not hold the Nazi ideals into high regard. Still though this is the SS, and to work for the SS you most likely had to be a strong Nazi, or be forced into being one with threat of losing your job/family/life.
So all in all the SS are NAZI'S!!!
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Originally posted by Reschke
Do you have proof?
Peiper was never a member of the Nazi party. He was convicted of war crimes relating to the Malmedy massacre and sentenced to death. His death sentence was later commuted due to serious irregularities in the trial. He was released from prison in 1956. He was murdered in 1976 when someone tossed a fire bomb into his house. "A group of Frenchmen, wearing ski masks were photographed as they announced 'We got Peiper.'"
My regards,
Widewing
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Were they? I thought some of the Forgine Volintears for the SS were not nesasearily Nazi's, the French SS, the Muselems in the SS, the Scandavians ect ( and some of the Germans as well).
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Originally posted by Widewing
Peiper was never a member of the Nazi party. He was convicted of war crimes relating to the Malmedy massacre and sentenced to death. His death sentence was later commuted due to serious irregularities in the trial. He was released from prison in 1956. He was murdered in 1976 when someone tossed a fire bomb into his house. "A group of Frenchmen, wearing ski masks were photographed as they announced 'We got Peiper.'"
My regards,
Widewing
According to who Widewing? This is a guy who was part of Hitler's bodyguard. Not much chance of him having that much status in the Leibstandarte without swearing his loyalty to Hitler and the Nazi party. They were after all Hitler's political army.
"He entered Waffen-SS training in 1935, and was commissioned SS-Rottenführer soon afterwards. He started officer training for the Leibstandarte in the same year, and was commisioned SS-Unterführer on 25 February 1936.
In 1938 he was posted to the staff of Heinrich Himmler, in which he transported messages and arranged meetings to take place. He met his wife, Sigurd, who was working as one of Himmler's secretaries. They married on the 26.9.39, and had three children; Hinrich, Elke and Silke."
This guy's hanging out with Himmler and is part of Hitler's bodyguard but he wasn't a Nazi? I find that one a bit hard to believe
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by brady
Were they? I thought some of the Forgine Volintears for the SS were not nesasearily Nazi's, the French SS, the Muselems in the SS, the Scandavians ect ( and some of the Germans as well).
Required of every SS man regardless of where they came from:
"The Oath of the SS Man :
"I swear to you, Adolf Hitler, as Fuehrer and Reichschancellor, loyalty and bravery. I vow to you, and to those you have named to command me, obedience unto death, so help me God."
Not an oath to Germany, but to Adolf Hitler. Kinda scary
Dan/Slack
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Dan/Slack you are right he wasn't categorizing everyone but sooner or later you will see someone write that all members of Germany's military were Nazi's. Its been written here and other boards over and over and to me that is plain wrong. Learn about the past and don't forget it.
Lastly. If Peiper wasn't a Nazi then so be it. If he was then so be it. I was likewise under the impression that to be a member of the Liebenstandarte you were required to be a member of good standing within the party.
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Originally posted by Reschke
Dan/Slack you are right he wasn't categorizing everyone but sooner or later you will see someone write that all members of Germany's military were Nazi's. Its been written here and other boards over and over and to me that is plain wrong. Learn about the past and don't forget it.
Lastly. If Peiper wasn't a Nazi then so be it. If he was then so be it. I was likewise under the impression that to be a member of the Liebenstandarte you were required to be a member of good standing within the party.
We are on the same page Reschke. Most of the regular LW and Wehrmacht folks were doing their jobs too. No one should use such a broad brush as to paint all Germans of that time as Nazi's
And Widewing, I suppose he may have not actually carried a Nazi Party card in his wallet, but swearing an allegiance to Adolf Hitler is essentially the same thing if not worse and there is no doubt he did that.
Dan/Slack
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Guess we gotta be careful in who we accuse AND who we defend, skipper. ;)
p.s. I've known Dan for a few years (virtually) not just in AH (and earlier AW) but on a newsgroup where we cuss and discuss everything from politics to religion to sports to games to WWII to techie stuff to snippets from our personal lives to just plain `ol sillyness. Throughout this time he's impressed me with his:
1: Sincerity
2: Knowledge of historical and technical aspects concerning WWII aircraft as well as the war in general. (And I certainly envy the fact that he's not only corrosponded with WWII pilots and crewmen but has met and formed friendships with many of them.)
3: Forthright point of view on all matters whether I agree with them or not.
4: Compassion for others.
5: Sense of humor.
Pretty much the same things that impress me about you, skipper.
I think you guys should get along fine.
:) :aok
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Originally posted by Guppy35
According to who Widewing?
According to Nazi party records, according to the testimony at his trial, according to author and WWII historian Charles Whiting, according to author, journalist and historian Gerald Astor, and according to anyone who researched Peiper. Probably the easiest book for you to locate in a public library is Astor's "A Blood- Dimmed Tide". See page 97.
He never joined the Nazi party because he felt political affiliations were not appropriate for career soldiers. He did join the Hitler Youth as a teenager, but so did millions of other German boys.
No one is saying that Peiper was without responsibility. He surely was, if for no other reason, due to his intimate knowledge of Nazi atrocities. But the fact remains that he was never a member of the Nazi party. He was not involved in SS politics, although he saw the inside workings of the organization like few ever did.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
According to Nazi party records, according to the testimony at his trial, according to author and WWII historian Charles Whiting, according to author, journalist and historian Gerald Astor, and according to anyone who researched Peiper. Probably the easiest book for you to locate in a public library is Astor's "A Blood- Dimmed Tide". See page 97.
He never joined the Nazi party because he felt political affiliations were not appropriate for career soldiers. He did join the Hitler Youth as a teenager, but so did millions of other German boys.
No one is saying that Peiper was without responsibility. He surely was, if for no other reason, due to his intimate knowledge of Nazi atrocities. But the fact remains that he was never a member of the Nazi party. He was not involved in SS politics, although he saw the inside workings of the organization like few ever did.
My regards,
Widewing
My mistake was saying specifically he was card carrying member of the Nazi party. Once again, anyone who served in the 1st SS, Leibstandarte, clearly were political soldiers, who gave their oath to Hitler. They were not just common everyday German GIs doing their bit.
The SS were the military arm of the Nazi party. The Liebstandarte were the bodyguards of Adolf Hitler. In most people's books that would make Peiper a Nazi too.
Quoting again from an earlier post of mine
From "Soldiers of Destruction" by Charles Sydnor.
"SS soldiers attended several lectures weekly and were told repeatedly that the goal of their training was to shape them into political soldiers of the fuhrer
Political training was divided into three broad areas. The first dealt with the history of the Nazi Party, and included an examination of the party program. The second involved the history and racial beliefs of the SS. The third and most important part required a careful analysis of the enemies of National Socialism. In order of importance these were: 1-Jews, 2-Fremasonry, 3-Bolshevism and 4-The churches."
As someone else said, if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck.... :)
Dan/Slack
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Whether or not they had a 'nazi card' in their pocket or not did not matter. German troops were fighting for Hitler. Hitler was executing millions of people according to Nazi doctrine. So in essence, all German troops were fighting for Nazi doctrine and therefore could be construed (sic) as Nazis.
The only people this did not apply too was those forced to fight (POWs, objectors, etc).
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Whether or not they had a 'nazi card' in their pocket or not did not matter. German troops were fighting for Hitler. Hitler was executing millions of people according to Nazi doctrine. So in essence, all German troops were fighting for Nazi doctrine and therefore could be construed (sic) as Nazis.
The only people this did not apply too was those forced to fight (POWs, objectors, etc).
All thaty death and you are bad mouthing them? Whats wrong with you today?
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There has been, and maybe still are, SS-men in US army.
And they were not nazis...
Read this book:Soldier Under Three Flags (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0934793654/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-6428007-3116001#reader-link)
Törni homepage (http://turuntori.com/kotisivut/?id=1034&sivu=1085)
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Damn i just wrote it as messing around didnt mean for evryone to start arguing. but go ahead if u guys want to cz its fun reading ur arguements.
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Damn i just wrote it as messing around didnt mean for evryone to start arguing. but go ahead if u guys want to cz its fun reading ur arguements.
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lol Submit reply button got stuck now i submitted 2.
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Originally posted by mipoikel
There has been, and maybe still are, SS-men in US army.
And they were not nazis...
Read this book:Soldier Under Three Flags (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0934793654/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-6428007-3116001#reader-link)
Törni homepage (http://turuntori.com/kotisivut/?id=1034&sivu=1085)
To qualify this again.
Required of every SS man regardless of where they came from:
"The Oath of the SS Man :
"I swear to you, Adolf Hitler, as Fuehrer and Reichschancellor, loyalty and bravery. I vow to you, and to those you have named to command me, obedience unto death, so help me God."
While that doesn't mean they were card carrying members of the Nazi party, swearing an oath the the leader of and symbol of the Nazi party amounts to the same thing.
Indoctrination was the same. It was the political army of Adolf Hitler, with their loyalty to him.
Lots of the SS guys would have you believe it was all a big misunderstanding. The SS was what it was. They were not just the common soldiers of Germany during WW2.
Dan/Slack
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If Germany had won, how many SS would have said "I'm not a nazi, I'm just doing my job."
Yeah, whatever...
my 2 cents.