Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: lazs2 on December 04, 2003, 10:40:07 AM
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from netscape news...
"However Kincaid said the case should help dispel the notion that the Hells Angels were harmless older men with beards who enjoyed riding motorcycles.
"If you have a Toys For Tots drive on the same day that you are cooking methamphetamine, which is your true persona?" Kincaid told a news conference. "I'm old too and I can probably be dangerous if I put my mind to it."
The Hells Angels, active back to the 1940s, have an estimated worldwide membership of 2,500, including chapters in Canada, Europe and Australia.
Their litany of misdeeds includes the stabbing death of a spectator at a 1969 Rolling Stones concert in Oakland, California, and a violent brawl and shootout at a Nevada casino in April 2002 during a motorcycle rally.
Three bikers were killed on a crowded casino floor in Laughlin and a fourth was fatally shot in the back hours later while riding on a nearby highway.
Authorities declined to say if any of the evidence seized was related to the Laughlin incident or if any of the weapons found could be tied to a crime."
is this bigotry? Maybe 400 members in the largest group... all white guys. criminal behavior pretty much unproven... most have jobs.. raid netted allmost nothing but.... it was risk free.... who's gonna stick up for a bunch of whiter supremists?
On the other hand.... black and hispanic (where the hell is hispain?) gangs have upwards to 30,000 members in the largest groups and are allmost all unemployed.... have long criminal records and, a large percentage are even illegal aliens but.... it is not safe to harrass them.
is this a perfect example of why political correctness is wrong?
lazs
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It's our fault Lazs....we let them have too much power unchecked.
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On the other hand.... black and hispanic (where the hell is hispain?) gangs have upwards to 30,000 members in the largest groups and are allmost all unemployed.... have long criminal records and, a large percentage are even illegal aliens but.... it is not safe to harrass them.
Load of crap Lazs.
Did you follow the story of the Burbank Police officer that was shot and killed? Did you note that over 50 members of the HISPANIC gang the perp belonged to were arrested for "questioning", including his parents and brother.
Try not wearing those blinders so much.
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I noticed that they also seized black leather vests as evidence. WTF? Was there blood splatter evidence on those vests or what? The photo I saw was a vest displayed by a sheriff's office, sitting out in the open air. If that vest had forensic evidence on it, it would be plastic-bagged and labelled. I can't help but wonder if there was a political motivation here. Why else would you display Hell's Angels vests for the benefit of photographers? Right about now is when various organizations start their toy drives. Hmmm.
(http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20031204/lthumb.casp10312040051.hells_angels_raid_casp103.jpg)
Californa branch. New governator. Hmmm.
Nice display of firearms. What's with the Hell's Angels framed club banner, though?
(http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20031204/capt.casp10212040055.hells_angels_raid_casp102.jpg)
According to Yahoo's news story (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=718&e=10&u=/ap/20031204/ap_on_re_us/hells_angels_raid) the investigation focused on firearms and drugs, including some stolen military explosives. Ok, I can see that, but what's with displaying the evidence out in the open air? I can see the defense attorney jumping all over a defense of contaminated evidence and gun shot residue transferance.
I'm sure the biker gang had it coming, but the political angle is leaving a bad taste in my mouth.
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This wasn't a fishing expedition.
Raids here were synchronized with Hells Angels Motorcycle Club arrests in at least four other states. A grand jury in Nevada indicted 42 suspects, and California officials announced at least 38 arrests and dozens of searches as part of the two-year probe. There also were busts in Alaska and Washington. No violence was reported.
Among the Arizona suspects, at least two face a possible death penalty for murder, and most could be sentenced to life if convicted, according to Michael Kemp, a federal prosecutor handling the case.
Besides allegations of narcotics and firearms violations, some defendants are accused in connection with a bloody casino shootout among Mongols and Hells Angels at the bikers' Laughlin River Run last year.
Especially in Arizona, the Hells Angels have been beleaguered by three years of violent incidents and law enforcement crackdowns. Among the events:
• In June 2001, the president and vice president of the club's Nomad chapter in Arizona were indicted for methamphetamine smuggling with leaders of the biker gang in South Africa and Massachusetts. Greg Surdukan, 51, and Chris Baucum, 50, both of Phoenix, were convicted and sentenced to prison.
• On April 22, 2002, a brawl between Hells Angels and Mongol gangs at Harrah's Casino in Laughlin ended with three dead and a dozen injured. Calvin Shaffer, 33, a Chandler member of Hells Angels, was arrested on suspicion of murder, but that charge was dropped. He is among the defendants in the new indictment.
• In March, Daniel "Hoover" Seybert, president of the Cave Creek chapter, was gunned down outside a north Phoenix bar. The new indictment does not contain charges linked to that homicide, which remains under investigation.
• During the Arizona raids in July, three dozen suspects were arrested and 35 searches conducted to culminate an investigation of gun-running, murder for hire and drug dealing. One Hells Angels associate was shot by police serving a warrant at the Cave Creek chapter.
Kemp said the new indictment accuses two defendants, Kevin Augustiniak and Paul Eischeid, in the October 2001 slaying of Cynthia Garcia, whose body was found at Usery Pass in the East Valley. Augustiniak, in custody on unrelated charges, was identified as a full member of the Mesa chapter. Eischeid, a prospect, was arrested Wednesday and appeared in federal court wearing a Hells Angels t-shirt.
Both from The Arizona Republic (http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/1204raid04.html)
Most likely this was an investigation that had been going on for some time. You don't bring down this much heat unless you've got your ducks in some decent type of row.
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Look at those guns! LOL one looks like a musket! I wonder how many are truly "illegal"?
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Look at those guns! LOL one looks like a musket! I wonder how many are truly "illegal"?
I was thinking the same thing. Looks like they went on a shopping spree at Wal-Mart or The Sports Authority.
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Every "Gang" "Biker" party I have ever attended in Wisconsin was a bunch of 40 something guys that made over 70K per year in tax paying jobs and are just like flightsim groups, but they have a more structured organiziation, with way better assests and ideas for "CONS.". (Strippers are a norm)
Sure, they had vests on, and bikes that costs more than computers, but they at least served beer and brats and raised money for better bands and better beer tent rentals too. Oooo, a scary bunch.
Janet Reno should or would have their clubhouse burned down rather than arrest individuals in the act that like any society F up should be.
And that weapon collection is a joke.
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Poor misunderstood bikers.
They are just trying to help people stay up longer and be more productive. Maybe they should be part of Bush's economic recovery plan.
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MT, amazed at road signs on his trip out of his sheltered daff life inputs more liberal opinion.
Do you see why we laugh at you? It's not becuase someone may not like you, your just such a unknowing avacado.
No offense.
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Creamo tries to maintain his "too hip for the room" persona yet only succeeds in looking trite.
No offense.
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MT... ya gotta admit... they have a pretty pitiful criminal record.... what ? maybe a dozen killed since 1969? how many have black gangs killed just by being the worst shots on the planet? Not to mention the ones they actually intended to kill.....
meth? LOL ... the mexican gangs are bringing the stuff across the border in semi trucks! Biker gangs can't produce enough to support themselves anymore... they aren't even a significant part of the problem...
Imagine if they took down black or hispanic gang members and had a huge press conference in the open air.... maybe take some pieces of walls and billboards with grafitti on em out there for the display along with the head rags and other paraphanalia...
biker gangs don't spray paint all over the walls with thier racist crap like black and hispanic gangs.
lazs
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Those poor persecuted hell's angels.
MiniD
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Oh... and MT... part of any economic recovery plan should be to go after the black and hispanic gangs... they are wasting time and resources on what is left of the biker gang dinasours.
when I was part of that scene in the day.... I agreed that the smart thing to do was to take us down... Now... it is the safe and meaningless thing to do.
the ATF lacks any relevance. they lack courage and are useless. They go after groups like Waco and hells angles fer chrissakes when the fact is.... they are afraid and powerless to even enter the areas where the real rot is.
lazs
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Lazs,
We could argue who is the worst all day. The Black gangs of LA and vicinity have come close to ruining the lives of an entire generation in their neighborhoods. The Hells Angels especially down here near Fontana, CA where they were founded have a stranglehold on the Meth trade. I know this from past experience and former stupidity.
My issue was with your contention that these poor White bikers were being singled out while the minority gangs are never hasseled.. just not true.
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MT... can you imagine a display of black or hispanic gang "trophies" like what was displayed in that picture in the open air at a press conference?
YU may have seen a small part of the meth trade but it was local. No one would tell you that the biker gangs control any significant part of the meth trade any more... it is shipped over from mexico in semi trucks... the biker gangs are reduced to middle men at best. their manufacturing efforts are laughable.
when was the last time (including this) that any significant amount of meth was siezed over any biker arrest?
not saying that they are good guys.... far from it... but they would be pretty far down on my list of gangs that need harrassing.
sheesh.... next your gonna tell me that black people aren't terrible shots!
lazs
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hmm those old biker dinasours blew up a Icecream factory trying to wipe out their rivals Outlaws in a gangfite 5 years ago here in Norway.
1 woman just passing the place was killed and values for 300 million NOK was gone (43 million $)
All convicted was HA hangarounds (later HA fully members now, since they did such a good job :( )
Well point is they are involved with heavy drug dealing, using hangarounds to cover their own sorry arses.
They also used as violent money collectors or torpedos as it also called.
Funny thing is that once a year they "open" up the club to invite families with their kids to show how nice and good they are lol.
15 years later one of those familys kids maybe be a drug addict and have drug dept, then they send a HA to break his legs or arms to get the money.
Dont leave organized crime alone, make them swet.
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Typical bleeding heart liberal thread about persecuted minorities.
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Lol, well Airguard, that can't be contrived as trite.
It's kinda intersting!
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dowding... you appear to missunderstand.. I have no problem at all with persecuting biker gangs... there is no love lost between me and several biker gangs I could name.
my point was that it is a diversion for a useless agency (BATF) to go after a dying dinosour of a group and to be so friegtened and powerless as to not even go into the neighborhoods of the real and significant problems.... like all government agencies.... they are all show and no go. They are wasting my money and all the posturing in the world won't make that go away. No church raid in waco or raid on some pissant biker "gang" is gonna change that.
airguard... I don't know anything about the situation in norway but... one woman killed by a bunc of guys that weren't even HA's seems a little hysterical and insignificant to me.
lazs
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Sorry lazs... that doesn't wash.
It's news because they were white. Because that's not usually the case in many arrests. If you don't believe me, check the race populations in the prison systems.
You chosing to highlight the persecution levied on a "white" gang citing the blind eye turned to non-white gangs is pure ignorance. Plain and simple.
MiniD
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I am indifferent to their organization but I find it amusing that they also raided the next door neighbor of the angles in Frisco..
Get your pitbull lawyer ready looks like more tax payer money is going to another innocent person...
Great work again.... " DA, we will target the angels and all their neighbors too.." (not only did they target some lady they targeted a attorney of law...) whats next family member extortion techniques for a few measily guns / drugs...? Papers Commrade?
Heres the article:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2003/12/04/MNG0Q3FPCV1.DTL
juicy excerpts: "Agents armed with assault rifles stormed the San Francisco clubhouse at 6 a.m. and broke down a portion of a wall to an adjoining home."
and lets not forget:
"I feel it's a violation,'' she said. "I'm not a Hells Angel, and they had no right to raid me.''
No wonder your state is broke, Broken leadership with no accountability will do that...
Whos going to pay for this persons suit..
Glad I dont live in the land of fruits and nutz....
2 cents...
DoctorYo
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the problem isn't the color of their skin, it's where they did the shooting.
cassinos are owned by people who have enough money and power to make sure their interests are looked out for.
if they'd had there shoot-out in the same neigborhoods that the black/hispanic gangs shoot it out in, then the case would have long since been forgotten.
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I would believe that they targeted Hell's Angels because Hell's Angels was such a large and easily-recognized organization.
I can't think of a single all-minority biker gang with the same scope and breadth of operation as the Hell's angels. I wouldn't be surprised if Outlaws went down next.
You don't need to import meth. It can be manufactured just about anywhere.
From KCI.Org:
The processing required to make methamphetamine from precursor substances is easier and more accessible than ever. There are literally thousands of recipes and information about making meth on the Internet. An investment of a few hundred dollars in over-the-counter medications and chemicals can produce thousands of dollars worth of methamphetamine. The drug can be made in a makeshift "lab" that can fit into a suit case. The average meth "cook" annually teaches ten other people how to make the drug.
According to KCI.Org (http://www.kci.org/meth_info/faq_meth.htm) motorcycle gangs are one of the chief distributors, along with organized crime syndicates.
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Agents armed with assault rifles stormed the San Francisco clubhouse at 6 a.m. and broke down a portion of a wall to an adjoining home.
Jayne Kelly, a family law attorney and biker aficionado whose home office is next door to the club, said federal agents ordered her to wait 45 minutes outside while they searched after breaking down her wall.
"I feel it's a violation,'' she said. "I'm not a Hells Angel, and they had no right to raid me.''
They aint done yet.
At least they didn't fire bomb her. Too bad the helmets don't look like the Nazis, Liberals will ALWAYS justify government thugs smashing down walls and raiding YOUR house, till it's theirs.
Still, no children were NOT burned alive, it was a good raid.
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I did some more research using my infromational warlord skills...
heres a interesting one on the lawyer:
http://www.recordnet.com/articlelink/112303/news/articles/112303-gn-1.php
Looks like this lady made news for falling in love with a convict. And you guessed it a Hells Angel convict..
Vindiction anyone....?
Guess they really didn't like her kissing her criminal boyfriend/ husband on valintines day...
This story is a real laugher when you put two and two together...
If they dont produce hard evidence on her she is going to sue the crap out of the city...
mark my words...
DoctorYo...
PS note the end... 2 million dollar house... thats a lot of bucks to hire some legal sharks...
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mini... you are missing the point. minorities commit the most crimes per capita including murder... they also have the worst lawyers... that is why so many are in prison... and even that is beside the point...
my point was that the BATF is too cowardly to go after real, relevant gangs. They won't even go in the neigborhoods... you handwringing won't wash so far as I am concerned.... if most of the crime is in those ghettos then where are the HA and Waco style raids?? that is the point. When they start taking out gangs in proportion to the harm to society that those gangs do.... then you will have a point.. just another fat, bloated, government agency that is worthless.
gofast... (interesting handle considering the topic)... distribution is not manufacture. while speed can be made in any of a number of ways these days... there still remaiins only a couple that produce high quality product... the chemicals (such as p2p ) that are needed tio produce high quality product are allmost prohibitively expensive and rare here but common and cheap south of the border.
lazs
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2 million in downtown SF is pretty normal.
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This is ****ing wrong, there is no defense of it. You do not get to raid the nighbor of a criminal withno evidence! The so called law enforcment people who did that should be in cuffs themselves.
Everyone here should be worried about this, how the hell is it your fault that scumbags live nextdoor?
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gto... that is the point... they know that if they worked up the balls to pull a raid on a black or hispanic gang in the ghetto.... they would have 5,000 advocacy groups on em before they even got back in the van not to mention film on the 5 oclock news. they figure they can get away with it on some formerly fearsome dinosour of a "gang".
In Vallejo... a HA member was attacked and beat to death at the clubhouse steps by blacks recently... another member who came out to help was also beaten... no blacks were killed or injured... this is not an invincible gang.... this is what is really happening not what you seen on some "hells angles on wheels" movie.
not saying these guys don't deserve it.... just that we sure don't need some group like the BATF and all the money we spend on em to rid us of these dinosours. If this is the best that they can do then let's disband em and save a bunch of money (and peoples rights in the bargin).
we don't need these blackshirts.
lazs
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Ya... right lazs. The "what about them?!?" argument. You've already lost dude... just admit it and get on with life.
They're talking about 50 arrests here. You're the one making it out to be more than it is. You're the one making inner city gang control out to be less than it is. I honestly think you're fantasizing on this one.
MiniD
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Lasz,
I'm no fan of the BATF, however, the HA's are not dinosaurs. They are a real drug-pushing, murdering, and dangerous group. Look at my post above to see some of the activities the Angels have been up to here in AZ.
And the drug they're pushing is meth. And meth doesn't need to be transported across the border. Meth is cooked right here in the US. Meth labs are everywhere. Gangs like the Angels still have a major stake in both production and distribution.
Besides, the question of the guns wasn't the type or number. The question is how many of those Angels had felony records making them prohibited possessors?
Another fact is that the Angels are easier to infiltrate than the New Eme or Sueranos.
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and some of you guys are scared to death of the Patriot Act...lol
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I don't fear it, im against it. Hitler was an *******.
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Just checked out how those minority gangs are "ignored".
Raid on Death Row Records (http://www.streetgangs.com/topics/tupac/111402kgo.html)
or Those raids grew in number this year: In April, the unit and the Violent Gangs Task Force arrested three members of the 18th Street Gang in New Brunswick. In June, the state police and a task force of more than 100 law enforcers stormed a Crips stronghold in East Orange, resulting in the arrest of four ranking gang members on drug-dealing and possession charges. Another 19 suspected dealers or users were arrested. In October, another group of local, county, state and federal authorities raided the homes of a dozen alleged Latin King members throughout New Jersey after a state grand jury indicted them and another 29 on charges ranging from fencing to racketeering and kidnapping.
from http://www.thnt.com/thnt/story/0,21282,653541,00.html
Easy to find if you want to.
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Originally posted by gofaster
I can't think of a single all-minority biker gang with the same scope and breadth of operation as the Hell's angels.
I can..
(http://www.latinoreview.com/moviereviews/2003/bikerboyz/images/cast-pic.jpg)
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Creamo is such a dreamy name... I'd like to take him for a motorcycle ride on a bumpy road! ;)
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Looks like Arnold just left his calling card...
Thorns
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same point... the BATF is going after a group that they know are pretty harmless and that don't have any advocacy support.
I am sure that all of those arressted are felons and so are violating a law by owning firearms.... I don't think we need a nazi organization like the BATF to protect us tho..
The Rico act was created for biker gangs. get three felons together and you got a conspiracy... why aren't these gang members pulled over and all arrested for consorting at best? pull over a car full of minority gang members and I guarentee that most are felons... felons can't consort.
I am saying that the BATF is useless .and cowardly... Waste of money. Can anyone tell me when they ever earned their money? Arrested a bunch of dinasours for gun violations and a "small" amount of meth?
Dune... Hate to break it to you but the arizona crimes seem pretty small.... police should be able to handle that easily... Say you got rid of every oulaw biker.... How much meth traffic would that stop? None... they aren't making any significant amount... the mexican mafia would just have to run one more semi full across the border and get a few more distributors.... just get a little more powerful... don't see how that helps anyone.
lazs
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the BATF is going after a group that they know are pretty harmless
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!
Are you trolling or what? even here in Sweden the Hells Angels are feared as hell.
They do alot of money in the drug trade, anabolics, alcohole, and getting people to pay debts....
Stop ****ting me Lazs.
Over here the rivals "Bandidos" used rocket launchers to attack the Hells Angels HQ...
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by harmless.... I meant harmless to the BATF.
lazs
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Originally posted by Mini D
You've already lost dude... just admit it and get on with life.
...and this is from the world expert on crime prevention and scooter locking.
Best to do as he says lazs...move on.;)
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You're right... White Male extremist groups are in no way a danger to the ATF... it is simply Rediculous!
(http://www.cnn.com/US/OKC/daily/9512/12-30/explosion_koco.ds.jpg)
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deja... I am not familiar with the "what about them" arguement. perhaps you could enlighten those of us less well versed in.... in whatever that falls under.
MT... white supremist groups certainly can be a danger... The HA's are pretty small potatoes tho and my point was that such an expensive agency as the BATF should be going after gangs with memberships in the 10's of thousands... those happen to be black and hispanic gangs. My point is that they go after groups that can't hurt them physicaly or politicaly.... It is extremely PC to attack white extremist or even white gangs period and very risky and not PC to attack the much more dangerous and difficult black/hispanic gangs... I can't believe that you don't see that.
lazs
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Well I posted at least 3 examples of "them" going after Black or Hispanic gangs in the same way. I can't believe you missed that point.
You don't have a point unless there is a disparity in enforcement. I showed similar raids done on other gangs. The fact that 'they' went after the HA is not proof that they don't go after other gangs as well.
I think you are arguing for a straw man... but thats just me.
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think you are arguing for a straw man... but thats just me.
Not just you.... As i said before, this has to be a troll on lazs part...
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MT... in none of your examples was the BATF named... they did not have an outdoor press conference with black and hispanic gang trophies spread out for the media. The raids were small and by local and state authorites it would appear.
I could be wrong but.... show me how the BATF is earning their money.... show me how they are going after the biggest gangs in the country in any meaningful way... Show me the press conference with blac/hispanic trophies spread out.
What are they doing to earn their money?
If you have one type of gang that has dozens of groups numbering in the 10's of thousands and contoling entire cities.... and another group of gangs with members in the hundreds .... why should they be treated equally? the biggest problem should get the most resources.. for every HA raid we should see 100 black or hisp[anic raids. How many murders in the country are attributed to biker gangs compared to say black and hispanic gangs? surely you can see that?
lazs
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Originally posted by Gaylord
Creamo is such a dreamy name... I'd like to take him for a motorcycle ride on a bumpy road! ;)
I don't like the ATF, nor Navy boys. Weird and extra fresh don't help your cause, sorry.
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come on guys... the BATF is a very large and expensive outfit. We are paying for it over and above our regular police FBI and CIA..
surely we can get some examples of the good they have done? Maybe they stopped someone from smoking? Or shut down a still? Oh wait... we have police and tresury for that..
Hve they been working day and night on this huge HA raid since the Waco disaster? Constant research and ninja like infiltration for the last half decade have resulted in the bust of 57 HA's and getting a couple of ounces of meth off the street plus some legal firearms held illegally (possibly)...
meanwhile.... be careful you don't get lost and wander into the wrong neigborhood in L.A. Legal or not... you best be packin.
lazs
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surely we can get some examples of the good they have done?
TY.
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Lazs, if it's inner city it's going to be local enforcement. That's the way jurisdiction works. If it's between state, it's going to be ATF. Waco was kicked off because of a fruadulant interstate arms sale. Ruby ridge because of the shooting of two federal forrest rangers. This raid because it was simultaneous multi state.
The "what about them?!?" argument is based solely on the principal that behavior and punishment is trying to be excused because there may be someone else out there doing the same thing. The ATF did not shut down completely to focus on the hell's angels lazs. They are looking at other places too. You're the one focussing on one of the places they hapened to be and criticizing it.
MiniD
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deja... I am in no way trying to excuse biker gang behavior... far from it... as I have said, there is no love lost between me and several oulaw gangs. I was explaining that the biker gangs are harmless dinosours compared to the real gangs.
as for interstate... allmost all black and hispanic gangs have memberships in several states. They also travel between borders. they also traffic across borders of countries and states. Their members have been arrested at borders of other states.
The L.A. gang team was recently shut down due to ACLU pressure. Members were threatened with long prison terms (u don't want to be a cop in prison) unless they ratted othe rmembers of the team... the BATF doesn't want any part of that action.
we could save a bunch of dough and not be any worse off if we disbanded them.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
deja... I am in no way trying to excuse biker gang behavior... far from it... as I have said, there is no love lost between me and several oulaw gangs. I was explaining that the biker gangs are harmless dinosours compared to the real gangs.
Lazs, calling them harmless and pointing to other people are saying two things: 1) You're excusing/dismissing their behavior 2) You're saying "what about them?!?" when pointing to other gangs. I've read what you've said and you continue to say the same thing over and over again.as for interstate... allmost all black and hispanic gangs have memberships in several states. They also travel between borders. they also traffic across borders of countries and states. Their members have been arrested at borders of other states.
What about them?!?
Do you know that the ATF has never had any involvement with them lazs? Or are you just assuming it because it fits into your neet "they're just going after the white guys" accusations.The L.A. gang team was recently shut down due to ACLU pressure. Members were threatened with long prison terms (u don't want to be a cop in prison) unless they ratted othe rmembers of the team... the BATF doesn't want any part of that action.
This has nothing to do with the ATF lazs. The fact that you bring it up says something else completely. You are tucking the "white" vs "black" issues away as if it's a score card and using that against the ATF no matter what team scored the points. The ATF did not shut that organization down. The ACLU did not shut it down. The LA police did... unless it was unconstitional. Weren't you the one saying you didn't like the patriot act or any real invasion into your privacy? I guess you don't really mind it against blacks?we could save a bunch of dough and not be any worse off if we disbanded them.
lazs
Disbanding them wouldn't cost us anything. Enforcing the "disbanding" would cost us every penny we're spending now and then some.
MiniD
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calling them harmless dionosours COMPARED to the other gangs is indeed valid. If you are trying to stop illegal behavior then obviously you would try to get the biggest offenders. COMPARED to the other gangs of any color... the biker gangs are irrelevant and eaily handled by local and state authorities. It is local and state authorities that have brought em down to the pissant level that they are at now. Now that they are toothless... the brave BATF jumps in.
I don't know if the BATF has involvement in black or hispanic gangs deja... you don't either because.... well.... because they don't have open air press conferences with black and hispanic gang trophies. we do see their (lol) efforts at Waco and the HA thing tho don't we? If pointing out that they are afraid of black and hispanic groups and target toothless white groups is racist... so be it.. I guess by your definition that I am a racist.
The L.A. unit was shut down by the ACLU pressure... paint it any way you like but if not for the ACLU they would still be operating. I am not for the partriot act or for police powers that exceed the constitution... I probly think the gang unit went too far but.... There is a need for such a unit.
Crimes that would make the rapist in another thread puke are being commited by these huge gangs... people are advocating torture for that sicko..
oh... by disbanding I meant disbanding the BATF.
lazs
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lazs... the fact that you use the term harmless speaks volumes. You'll continue to use it... and I'll continue to point it out. COMPARED is irrelevant. HARMLESS is a lie.
MiniD
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"surely we can get some examples of the good they have done?"
Written by Creamo
Didn't they save the Rolling Stones from a mean boy at Altimont Speedway?
Thorns
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admit it deja.. if I were to say the level of mercury in the water is harmless compared to the nitrate level you would have no problem... you are simply a PC tool on this one... something can be harmful and at the same time comparatively harmless.
it boils down to how you want to allocate resources. you appear to be taking the path of the PC tool. I am surprised that you have taken it to such an extreme tho.
lazs
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Completely irrelevant lazs.
Admitt it, you don't even know what crimes the "harmless bikers" were committing when you used the term. You just know that black and hispanic gangs do much worse. Sorry, but that is a bull**** argument no matter how adamant you are about it.
MiniD
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thorns... I meant the good that the BATF has done not the pissant biker gangs.
lazs
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Originally posted by Mini D
Waco was kicked off because of a fruadulant interstate arms sale. Ruby ridge because of the shooting of two federal forrest rangers. .
MiniD
You avacado, lol.
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deja... don't be silly... it is not the nature of the crimes... both probly commit just as heinous crimes... it has to do with volume... the biker gangs are a drop in the bucket.. if we only have one agency fighting this crime wave of interstate mayhem... they are picking the worhless and cowardly way out. to go after the drop in the bucket and then go on a huge bragfest over "results" is typical BATF behavior.. only a tool would defend that.
lazs
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I have to admit, lazs makes some interesting points here. I just did a Google search on "ATF gang raid"...
Now I understand that the HA raid was very recent and should be the majority of the hits, but I'm still looking for an ATF raid on any other gang...
OK here's one.. The Mongols.. A motocycle gang again. Hmmmmmm.
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thanks MT... I think you forgot the Waco gang... oh wait..
Look... believe me or not... color has nothing to do with it other than the PC silliness and the fact that color makes it more dificult...
At one point the biker gangs were worth going after but... The Batf didn't go after em... it was local and state agencies that brought em down to their current pissant level... now the big brave BATF steps in..
The next gang that was a threat was the asian gangs... no BATF... locals did all the heavy lifting...
now comes the black and hispanic gangs... again... the locals do the work..
I guess when the BATF figures the asian gangs are harmless enough and don't have too much ACLU protection... they will stage another "massive" raid.
doubt they will ever do anything to earn their what we spend one .... lets disband em and spread the money to the local and state authorities where it will do some good.
If I were black... I would want the black gangs stopped more than any white guy does. The KKK doesn't do 1/1000th of the harm to race relations that black gangs do. rap and hio hop not withstanding.
lazs
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Hey lazs, take a look at the gang wars in Denmark in the 1990s. Hells Angels and Bandidos.
The two "dinosaurs" as you call them, together with "The International Club", which is a similar organisation construed mostly of immigrants, control 99% of organised crime here. They otally own the drug trade. Not just meth: everything. Most of the dirty work is done by "supporters" or "hangarounds". But these organisations are far from amateurish or a relic from a time past.
They have big houses, big cars yet receive welfare. It's clear that they live above their means and our Tax Man is now using this to get to 'em.
Nice fellows as long as you don't cross 'em.
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well... st santa... maybe we should send the BATF to you guys?
At one time, during the heyday biker "clubs" controled meth, tit bars and massage parlors along with all the "mom and pop" motorcycle shops and we were getting into contracting and firearms. The scam was to get a legit bussines owner hooked on meth or coke or whatever and party with him making him think he was one of us and then when he got in tooo deep... well... end op with his bussines and cars and stuff... run everything into the ground...
it was local and state authorities that shut them down. I never seen the BATF or FBI do squat and I was there... I seen the FBI tag onto local investigations and get in on the trophy stuff but the locals did the grunt work.
Every time 3 or more bikes rode together they got stopped.. every time a caddy or lincoln full of bikers showed up it got stopped... everyone had warrants or felonies... I probly spent warrant time half a dozen times.
Here is the deal... citizens allow gangs to operate cause they are afraid of em. We looked fierce and were flamboyant and loud... appeared fearless... soon as a gang is going around skulking and peeking out windows and looking paranoid and scared... it loses it's power. You would not be afraid of your HA's if they were never seen in colors anymore or never seen more than one or two at a time. If drunks were beating em up once in a while and when you drove by they were being arrested on the side of the road.
other gangs are no different and need to be handled in the same way. If they are not flamboyant and visible and fearless... they are ded.
Local police could shut down the neterlands HA activity in less than a year.
lazs
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Try reading the ATF web site (http://www.atf.gov/press/fy04press/field/112003nash_gangmembersentenced.htm)
Odd that they'd be observing a black gang. This guy must have been going into a hell's angels clubhouse by mistake.
Often times the ability to infilitrate is confused with the desire to do so. Then people spin it to mean more than it really does. Especially if it starts affecting groups viewed as "harmless".
MT... in the article you read about the other biker gang... did it seem like they might have deserved to be arrested or was it for minor to non-existant offenses?
MiniD
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Wow.. deja... they arressted one black gang member out of.... what? 50,000? How much is their budget and how many did local authorities arrest in the same time period? for real crimes like rape and murder and extortion and large quanities of drugs.
let's just say that the BATF is comparitively..... worthless. Let's just say that they waste a lot of time going after comparitively harmless groups. Now if you can't wrap your mind around the term comparitively harmless as it applies to biker gangs and black and hispanic gangs then I would say that it is you that has the problem with color not I.
lazs
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There ya go lazs... off on it again.
They arrested 57 hell's angels... out of what?
You can place the ATF in the city observing black gangs, but that's not good enough for you because you want to see them posting arrests like those harmless hell's angels. Of course, it just may not be news when black gang members are arrested, or it may not be a predominant problem in the areas where these hells angels were arrested... but all that is irrelevant to you because you've pegged the ATF as the end all be all of hells angel persecution.
Yeppers lazs... you are so right. It's amazing.
And I didn't have to dig for that lazs, that was on the front page of their web site. I just had to look. There wasn't a single other article that involved the arrest of someone by ATF agents without the aid of local law enforcement. But that's OK... you hold onto whatever makes you feel persecuted.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Mini D
Try reading the ATF web site (http://www.atf.gov/press/fy04press/field/112003nash_gangmembersentenced.htm)
Odd that they'd be observing a black gang. This guy must have been going into a hell's angels clubhouse by mistake.
Often times the ability to infilitrate is confused with the desire to do so. Then people spin it to mean more than it really does. Especially if it starts affecting groups viewed as "harmless".
MT... in the article you read about the other biker gang... did it seem like they might have deserved to be arrested or was it for minor to non-existant offenses?
MiniD
No question, they all deserved it.
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observing? I can observe... everyone observes gangs.. we all observe em too damn much..
face it deja you just can't deal with priorities... do yu think the BATF is worth keeping? based on what? arresting (with help) 57 dinosours and "observing" gangs with 20-50,000 members? you are so PC it must hurt.
disband the BATF and give the money to local law enforcement where it actually does some good. sure... local gang enforcement units have some problems but rarely as big a screw ups as say... Waco or Ruby ridge.
MT.. yes they all deserve it. When I was in the "club" circle it allways amazed me at how little was being done to stop us. until the rico act was enforced and the consorting and the conspiracy and the people getting fed up and and and.... certainly the BATF was not a factor.... wasn't then and isn't now so far as gangs go. They won't be a factor in black gangs till the members of the black gangs number drops to 400 or so and their average age (of the gang members) reaches 50 or so... then we will see some real police work by the BATF.... Shouldn't cost us much more thatn a few billion to wait for that to happen.
lazs
lazs