Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: davidpt40 on December 05, 2003, 04:47:39 PM
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Was playing around in the P38L, heres some of the interesting things I found it could do.
It can take off on one engine (from a dead stop)
It can climb on one engine
While at 10 feet AGL, airspeed ~250, I can go 90 degrees straight up, shut off the engines, wait until the plane stalls and falls inverted, being engine restart, and still have enough altitude to regain control and level off.
At 10 feet agl (speed 250), with only 1 engine on, I can go vertical (90 degrees), stall the aircraft, wait until it enters a spin (usually inverted), restart the dead engine, and still have enough altitude to regain control and level off.
The only maneuver I havent perfected yet is going vertical on one engine from sea level, stalling and spinning, and regaining control before I crash (without restarting dead engine). I only tried it once, and combat trim was on.
I think the P38L is Americas best TnBer in the vertical.
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hush! Dont tell anyone!
P.S.
Try the special '38 version of the hammerhead: vertical zoom with both engines running, then cut (or reduce throttle on) one engine near stall speed. THAT is a quick reversal.. ;)
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In case no one's figured it out yet: don't follow a P38 up.
Wait, wait. That's how I get every one of my kills. Forget I said that, I don't need to learn any more ACM.
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I think the P38L is Americas best TnBer in the vertical.
I'd go further and say it's the best plane in the vertical period.
Good 38 pilots know this. Like mos said, if you want to live, don't follow it up.
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I must digress. While the P38L does have the highest thrust-to-weight ratio of the non-perked U.S. fighters, I believe the P-51 to be a better vertical fighter. Now the P38 definately has some amazingly docile stall characteristics, but the 51 can zoom climb very well due to its laminar flow wing.
Will have to do some testing on that to find out the true 'king'.
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Originally posted by Ecliptik
Good 38 pilots know this. Like mos said, if you want to live, don't follow it up.
I'd follow it up in a 109G10. I've even followed up a Me163 in a G10 and nailed it. Of course, this is a testament to the G10, and not my own skill - I have none.
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Originally posted by davidpt40
I must digress. While the P38L does have the highest thrust-to-weight ratio of the non-perked U.S. fighters, I believe the P-51 to be a better vertical fighter. Now the P38 definately has some amazingly docile stall characteristics, but the 51 can zoom climb very well due to its laminar flow wing.
Will have to do some testing on that to find out the true 'king'.
Widewing did some zoom tests recently. Spit XIV, 109G10, and P38L were all on top (close enough to be virtually equivalent). P51 was some ways behind, I believe. It was also found that less fuel = more zoom. I.e. all else equal, lower weight wins.
In sustained climb, G10 and XIV are neck and neck, according to the charts at netaces. Everything else is either left behind or left way behind.
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Originally posted by davidpt40
I must digress. While the P38L does have the highest thrust-to-weight ratio of the non-perked U.S. fighters, I believe the P-51 to be a better vertical fighter. Now the P38 definately has some amazingly docile stall characteristics, but the 51 can zoom climb very well due to its laminar flow wing.
Will have to do some testing on that to find out the true 'king'.
David, the laminar flow wing does nothing to enhance zoom-climb. It's greatest advantage is reduced drag at very high speeds. Essentially, this results in postponing drag rise. Of course, the propeller itself is the greatest source of drag at very high speeds. In a straight-up, full power zoom climb from 300 mph, the P-38 leaves the Mustang well behind. If you reduce speeds to 200 mph, the difference is even greater.
My regards,
Widewing
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Also if you follow it up, in something like a G10 or 51 the fight can get into a stall fight very fast. You dont want to stall fight a P38 in a P51 or any 190,109. 38 rocks:D
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Originally posted by davidpt40
I must digress. While the P38L does have the highest thrust-to-weight ratio of the non-perked U.S. fighters, I believe the P-51 to be a better vertical fighter. Now the P38 definately has some amazingly docile stall characteristics, but the 51 can zoom climb very well due to its laminar flow wing.
Will have to do some testing on that to find out the true 'king'.
The P-38 is a better fighter in the vertical than the P-51 as it retains its E far better. Get a co-E and co-alt P-51 and P-38 and take them in the vertical and the P-51D will stall out before the P-38 does.
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Most of my vertical fights have a speed range of 0-500 miles per hour. P38L locks up at 450.
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Most of my vertical fights have a speed range of 0-500 miles per hour. P38L locks up at 450.
If you're locking up your P-38 at 450mph, then you're not doing something correctly. With proper use of your throttle, trim and dive flaps you can safely get a P-38 into a 450mph+ IAS dive without locking up your controls or getting into compressability.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
If you're locking up your P-38 at 450mph, then you're not doing something correctly. With proper use of your throttle, trim and dive flaps you can safely get a P-38 into a 450mph+ IAS dive without locking up your controls or getting into compressability.
ack-ack
shhh, i love surprising ponies with that.
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Yeah I know about dive flaps and trim, but above 450mph the P38 ceases to be an effective fighter.
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Says who? Maybe for those that aren't very familiar with the P-38 and don't fly it often and aren't used to how it handles.
Like Murdr pointed out, many P-51 drivers have been surprised to see a P-38 following them in a 450+mph (IAS) dive and catch them.
ack-ack
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Yeah. I'm certainly not Ack-Ack, but I've learned enough to fly above 450 without compressing. It just takes some practice.
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Originally posted by mia389
Also if you follow it up, in something like a G10 or 51 the fight can get into a stall fight very fast. You dont want to stall fight a P38 in a P51 or any 190,109. 38 rocks:D
Not with the G10, mate. After the zoom, I lead you in a slow spiral in my rocketsled. Then wait for you to stall or level, and then BnZ. Done this a couple times, quite satisfying. Would've had em too, if I could hit the Titanic on a calm day. :lol
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Originally posted by mold
Not with the G10, mate. After the zoom, I lead you in a slow spiral in my rocketsled. Then wait for you to stall or level, and then BnZ. Done this a couple times, quite satisfying. Would've had em too, if I could hit the Titanic on a calm day. :lol
what does this have to do with following a 38 up? Pay attention ;)
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Originally posted by mia389
Also if you follow it up, in something like a G10 or 51 the fight can get into a stall fight very fast. You dont want to stall fight a P38 in a P51 or any 190,109. 38 rocks:D
Actually, I'd stall fight a 38 in any of those planes any day. The 38 is so big that one close range snap shot is almost a guaranteed kill.
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Originally posted by Murdr
what does this have to do with following a 38 up? Pay attention ;)
"After the zoom." Pay attention. ;)
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Originally posted by AtmkRstr
Actually, I'd stall fight a 38 in any of those planes any day. The 38 is so big that one close range snap shot is almost a guaranteed kill.
Nah, I wouldn't--in the G10, anyway. That damn 20mm is so hard to aim unless you're saddled up. Pony vs FTD, the FTD wins hand down on climb, and pretty much hands down on turning unless the 51 gets lucky.
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I did some testing. Well the P38L will start shaking but not lose control at 450ias. When tas (not ias) creeps above 500, thats when control decreases.
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Originally posted by mold
Pony vs FTD, the FTD wins hand down on climb, and pretty much hands down on turning unless the 51 gets lucky.
Or maybe the 51 is a better pilot?
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The P-38 is a better fighter in the vertical than the P-51 as it retains its E far better. Get a co-E and co-alt P-51 and P-38 and take them in the vertical and the P-51D will stall out before the P-38 does.
Most smart pilots wont go into a vertical if they know their planes advantages and disadvantages. If a P38 pilots goes into a vertical climb on the merge, i might take it easy on my joystick to not lose much Speed, with him having the alt advantage after climbing i rely on Angles and getting him to start rolling with me, once he's tricked into thinking that ive evened up speed-alt with him he panics and dies.
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Originally posted by WldThing
Or maybe the 51 is a better pilot?
Goes without saying. All these statements apply to equivalent pilots who know the strengths/weaknesses of the respective planes. If you were in a Pony, would you stallfight a 38 knowing the other is a good 38 pilot?
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Originally posted by AtmkRstr
Actually, I'd stall fight a 38 in any of those planes any day. The 38 is so big that one close range snap shot is almost a guaranteed kill.
The only problem with that is that the P-38 is a better stall fighter than both of those planes. So unless the P-38 driver really mucks up the engagement, being a big target is not an issue.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by davidpt40
I did some testing. Well the P38L will start shaking but not lose control at 450ias. When tas (not ias) creeps above 500, thats when control decreases.
Below 10,000ft you can get a P-38 past 500mph and still have control. Of course control will be a little sluggish because of the increased airflow but you won't enter into compressability and you will still be able to maneuver and at high speeds the P-38 has an incredibly fast roll rate.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by WldThing
Most smart pilots wont go into a vertical if they know their planes advantages and disadvantages. If a P38 pilots goes into a vertical climb on the merge, i might take it easy on my joystick to not lose much Speed, with him having the alt advantage after climbing i rely on Angles and getting him to start rolling with me, once he's tricked into thinking that ive evened up speed-alt with him he panics and dies.
I think you tried that a few days ago against a co-alt P-38 and ended up being chased down and killed. ;)
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I think you tried that a few days ago against a co-alt P-38 and ended up being chased down and killed. ;)
Few weeks ago, chased down? Try again, i could have run if i wanted too, merely outdived you. BTW I've fought you in the DA 38 vs 51 6-7 months ago, your 38 didnt stand much a chance.
O one more thing, our fight in the MA started at 20k-25k, but our DA fights were at 5k... My lack of air that high must have cut off the blood to my head :p
Im not invincible, i die alot ;)
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your not invincible? just when i thought i knew everything you have to go and prove me wrong:(
:lol
~S~
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Below 10,000ft you can get a P-38 past 500mph and still have control. Of course control will be a little sluggish because of the increased airflow but you won't enter into compressability and you will still be able to maneuver and at high speeds the P-38 has an incredibly fast roll rate.
ack-ack
Ack-Ack, I think I'm becoming a fairly good p38 pilot, but I don't know if I've ever seen my speed go above 500 or 515 TAS. Does the needle stop registering speed increases, or do you know if the p38 just isn't modelled to go any faster?
--I have on more than one occasion gotten my IAS up to 475, though. The roll rate is astounding.
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ive seen over 500, not sure how much, maybe 515, but have seen it and lived.
~S~
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Originally posted by mos
Ack-Ack, I think I'm becoming a fairly good p38 pilot, but I don't know if I've ever seen my speed go above 500 or 515 TAS. Does the needle stop registering speed increases, or do you know if the p38 just isn't modelled to go any faster?
--I have on more than one occasion gotten my IAS up to 475, though. The roll rate is astounding.
I'm guessing it goes higher because I use IAS speeds and I've gotten the P-38 to 500mph IAS in dives quite a few times. You do have to watch out though when you pull out of a dive at those speeds, at least if you're carrying ordnance. The only times I've torn my wings off in a P-38 was when I was going close to 500mph and did a hard G pull out. Without ordnance I've never been able to rip the wings off and I've tried pretty hard to do it.
Another thing with dives in the P-38 is try not to start them above 20,000ft to avoid any compressability problems. You should also trim the elevator to the approximate neutral, which in the P-38 would be on the _ part of the L where it says ELV on the trim indicator. You might have to give some forward stick when you get above 450mph but at least when you engage the dive flaps you'll see your nose pitch up really fast. Using your dive flaps will also help you in high speed turns. If you need to slow yourself down quickly you can use your rudders to create some drag and with your throttle you will be able to keep your plane at a near constant speed in the dive.
I'm sure some of the P-38 flyers in here are going to be pissed that I let the cat out of the bag.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by mos
In case no one's figured it out yet: don't follow a P38 up.
Dont follow any thing thats extending its vertical unless you know you can have a guns solution before or at its apex.
A rule I constantly break..............
the dope who is roped
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I'm sure some of the P-38 flyers in here are going to be pissed that I let the cat out of the bag.
ack-ack
Nah :D ..... Most proably don't even understand what yer saying .... my 38 will continue to own all of you :p
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DoctorYo is 22 and 0 using the p38 air to air air to ground... (minus 2 aircraft kills during takeoff, Even I will vulch if the climate is right.)
DoctorYo
Nuff said... Great Plane...
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Most of my vertical fights have a speed range of 0-500 miles per hour. P38L locks up at 450.
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Well, going vertical means going up in my book, and I fly both 38 and 51.. 51 is dead meat in a vert climb against a 38.
As for 500plus speed.. I have been mostly flyin 38's for a few months now. The trim tabs are a wonderful thing when you start compressing!!! And the speed you maintain after levelling out is amazing! Against most people (i said most wild! hehe) I would rather be in the 38. Got in 5 v 1(me the 1 in a 38) low (very bad place..) on the Festerma map. By being a little gentle on the stick, I was able to get 2 very quickly.. then as e bled away.. Can you say "flaps"??? turned 2 more to death..with snap-shots.. by that time, I was down to 200 and the 5th one (a spit of course) got me. Though I died, wasone of the best fights I have had. And ya can't beat that second engine for getting you home!
And I agree about the weight thing! I take it up with 50% and 1 D/T. That gets me anywhere I need to go. And I also... well can't tell all my secrets! Still learning everytime I fly it. Now if I can only get that killed engine reversal thing down.. ack-ack? Care to help? hehe! all
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Above 300mph, the P-51 is definately a better fighter than the P38. The purpose of this post was to show how docile the P38 is at low speeds, not to make up a bunch of stories.
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Once again, someone goes and makes a personal attack on someone. Thats one of the reasons I rarely post. I'm sorry if you think it bs david. You are entitled I guess, but I will not lower myself with an attack on you. Lighten up Francis! heh
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Above 300mph, the P-51 is definately a better fighter than the P38. The purpose of this post was to show how docile the P38 is at low speeds, not to make up a bunch of stories.
I disagree. Assuming everything else is equal, above 300mph, the P38 has a higher roll rate, tighter turn radius (although not certain about that one), no torque effects, and a much longer zoom climb. The P51 can accelerate away --but not in a dive.
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Above 300mph, the P-51 is definately a better fighter than the P38.
In what way? I don't think so. Not 1 vs 1, anyway. The only thing the P51 can hope for 1 on 1 is to run away, and that only level--no dives or climbs. The P51 is not a great plane co-E, imo. Like the Hog. Maybe not as bad as a wurger or jug, but nowhere near a 38.
All equal and good pilots, of course.
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Above 300mph, the P-51 is definately a better fighter than the P38. The purpose of this post was to show how docile the P38 is at low speeds, not to make up a bunch of stories.
While the P-51 might out run the P-38 it won't out turn it or out fight it in the vertical. While in AH the best operational altitudes for the P-38 is between 15,000ft and 20,000ft, in real life the P-38L performed very well at altitudes above 25,000ft. The P-38 was originally designed as an interceptor and it did it quite well.
ack-ack
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P38s? Why all this talk of p38s?? No-one likes a p38.. its big.. TOO big.. guns suck.. and theres almost NO ammo in the damn planes.. only 1 cannon... you guys are all high.. the P38 sucks!! 51s outrun 38s.. studmuffinA7s outrun the 38... G10s outrun the 38.. Why would anyone wanna fly a sorry assed P38?? This is all non-sense and I vote this thread deleted and burnt... All posters (myself excluded) should be warned not to spread such vicous and ill-true statments about such a lacking aricraft.... I mean, ggggggeeeeeeeeeeeezussss!! you cant even see outta the damned thing!
k
AoM
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LOL Kappa,
you dirty bastig 8)
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I'm just learning the 38, but I have learnt this much as far as 51 vs. 38 (at least for me right now), if I'm at cruising speed lets say 300 mph, say at 4k, and a 38 comes along co-alt, I may try setting up one high speed pass with it, but thats all, if you miss, just keep on going because if that 38 knows what he's doing he's going to get you slow or stall your *** then pop you. If you don't have a respect for that 38 when you come across it, you will learn real fast if there is an experienced pilot at the controls. :aok
--Howitzer
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Sorry Bulz.
Will someone duel me in the DA? I just want to test a few things. I will fly P-51, someone else will fly P-38.
At 10,000 feet, the P38 will do about 375mph with war emergency power. The Mustang will do about 410mph. Thats a pretty big speed difference. Enough to give the P-51 a healthy advantage.
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That 25 mph speed advantage doesnt help the runstang driver shoot the P-38.
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Its 35mph and yes it does.
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Not really, it'll help you to runaway though. If you use the speed to disengage to return later with an adv the p38 can just climb while you extend.
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Try and see if you can follow the 38 into a double or triple immel even with a 35mph speed advantage. I think not.
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Sorry Bulz.
Will someone duel me in the DA? I just want to test a few things. I will fly P-51, someone else will fly P-38.
At 10,000 feet, the P38 will do about 375mph with war emergency power. The Mustang will do about 410mph. Thats a pretty big speed difference. Enough to give the P-51 a healthy advantage.
As long as you keep nice and level it will give you the advantage. Go into a climb or even a zoom climb and the P-38 will bite you in the ass.
Here's a film of a duel that I had with someone that was flying a P-51D that tried to rope me in a duel even though I was at a lower IAS speed than the P-51. You'll even see by the other guy's comments he too was surprised that he got nailed.
AKAK vs. P-51D (http://www.hispanicvista.com/ahfilms/film84.ahf)
Ack-Ack
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Heh, that film just goes to show how incredulous pilots will be even after they've seen a thing happen before their eyes.
I love how he claims that he was doing 300 at the top of the spiral and that he never stalled, when the film shows him doing about 150 tas and clearly stalling.
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Its a matter of your perception when you put the 38 vs the pony in vertical.
Next time you fly a pony, see at what speed you tell yourself 'time to vertical'. I believe you will find this to be when you are above 450mph.
The 38, in contrast, resorts to vertical manouvering at almost any speed, even 100mph.
If you put a 38 and a pony at = speeds and go vertical, the pony will come out so behind you'd think it won 5th place in 2-man race. But in combat, the P51 pilots start their verticals with a rather comfortable speed advantage.
davidpt40: You can retain control of the 38 past 420mph (compress speed) in 2 ways:
1) barrell rolls before lockup speeds and keep barrel rolling past compression speed: This is one technique that got me called a cheater many times. Simply put, if you following a con into a dive..say, the P51 or a 190, and you are under 10k ft... you know they will do a 'straight' dive.. aka nose down... then they pull up to re-engage after they get 'separation'.
by barrel rolling past compression the 38 retains full control..as long as you keep barrel rolling.
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This keeps your speed just under 500mph and you are still chasing them... the p51 and 190 will pull a bit higher than 500mph in a dive, but they too must pull up to avoid the ground and their controls also get stiff.
And thats when you nail them. As THEY pull up, their controls are stiff.. yours are perfect. Since the 51/190 gained a bit of separation, you will usually be d1.2 away or so when they pull up.. you keep barrel rolling but you pull up your nose, on a pure lead persuit of the 190/51.
And so, as their controls are stiffened, you cut inside their 'turn' (pulling up is a vertical 'turn') , close in quick, and before you enter your gun range, lower your throttle to like 20% or just cut it. the 38's brick-like drag and your own barreling will allow you to level and shoot the 51/190 without locking up as your plane slows down under compression speed.
Then watch how they claim you followed them in a powerdive and claim you did 600mph or some other **** comment of the sort.
2) Rudderring. This method doesnt allow you to retain control of the nose up/down movement (that will be locked up), but with rudder and rolling you can make the 38 go up or down during the dive, change its direction if you will.
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That's a great ascii diagram. Perfectly described what you were trying to say.