Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dago on December 06, 2003, 09:26:43 PM
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Looks like the national Park Service has finished the underwater survey of the wreckage of the B-29 that sank in Lake Mead shortly after WWII.
The wreckage wasn't found until August 2001 by some local scuba divers in the Overton Arm area. There's a few photos posted on the NPS web site at:
B29 Photos (http://www.nps.gov/lame/photob29.htm)
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Very cool. I don't see anything in the way of depth info; is it reachable by beginner scuba divers?
Looks like it hit pretty hard, judging from the fact that 3 engines tore off and the damage to the nose. Can't imagine a B-29 would take a hard ditch very well, with all that plexiglass up front. Wonder if everyone made it out ok. The pilot's escape hatch is gone, which is a good sign I guess.
Looked around the site, couldn't find much more info about the history of the plane.
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history channel had a show about it, under water detcives or something like that. said all the crew made it out and its in 180' of water. the b-29 was doing some kind of science expiriment with the sun.
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B29 was carrying an instrument called a 'sun tracker'. It was early version of heat seaker for Sidewinder missle.
The pilot was showing off and bounced the b29 on the water at 250mph. 3 engines ripped off, the B29 lost control and hit the water again. Luckily everyone survived.
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cool pics
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From looking at the nose, I can not imagine that the aircraft hit that hard... Aluminum especially an open ended cylinder like that would have peeled back like a banana peel had they hit the nose real hard... I bet he pancaked it in.
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The show had the only living crewmember on camera telling what happened. See my above post.
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Like I said, he pulled out too late, the props caught, ripping engines loose, then it went in...
Nice to see they survived, I have dove the wreckage of quite a few a/c where the crew was not that fortunate.
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I'm no scuba diver, so I don't really know; is 180 feet too deep for a novice?
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Looks like she is in pretty good shape. I wonder if there are any plans to bring her to the surface. There aren't too many Superforts left in the world, she might make an interesting restoration project.
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Originally posted by Tarmac
I'm no scuba diver, so I don't really know; is 180 feet too deep for a novice?
Definitely too deep for a novice. New scuba divers are recommended to stay above around 100 feet for a good while. Some people start getting nitrogen narcosis at this depth.
A scuba diver with a little experience can easily dive down to around 130'. Bottom time for no decompression diving would be 4-7 minutes, depending on which table you use. After 130' it is plain dumb to use normal air - you feel "fine" but you aren't. I can see on the pics that the divers were using trimix, nitrox and probably pure oxygen, with the two latter used for decompression. That's technical diving and it takes a lot of training, experience and dedication to do safely.
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Originally posted by StSanta
Definitely too deep for a novice. New scuba divers are recommended to stay above around 100 feet for a good while. Some people start getting nitrogen narcosis at this depth.
A scuba diver with a little experience can easily dive down to around 130'. Bottom time for no decompression diving would be 4-7 minutes, depending on which table you use. After 130' it is plain dumb to use normal air - you feel "fine" but you aren't. I can see on the pics that the divers were using trimix, nitrox and probably pure oxygen, with the two latter used for decompression. That's technical diving and it takes a lot of training, experience and dedication to do safely.
I hope you don't give this advice out to you'r friends LOL.
A novice Or open water diver should never go deeper than 60 ft.
After his advanced open water course then he may proceed to 100ft given the conditions are easy!
And In a lake they seldom are the visability sux at 100ft in a lake and it's cold.
This Is another thing I'm good at folks as I am a PADI Divemaster # 190161 Been diving fer years all over the world .
Prefere wreck diving though.
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It's really in excellent shape - fabric still clinging to some control surfaces, little corrosion, etc. But, it would seem they plan on preserving the wreck on the bottom for the handful of divers that may actually get to see it each year.
Personally, I think a static dry land display would be more valuable, but it's probably a territorial/political thing to overcome within the park service.
Charon
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People have free-dived to either 400 or 700 feet (cant remember now) without any equipment.
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Originally posted by mrblack
I hope you don't give this advice out to you'r friends LOL.
A novice Or open water diver should never go deeper than 60 ft.
After his advanced open water course then he may proceed to 100ft given the conditions are easy!
And In a lake they seldom are the visability sux at 100ft in a lake and it's cold.
This Is another thing I'm good at folks as I am a PADI Divemaster # 190161 Been diving fer years all over the world .
Prefere wreck diving though.
MrBlack, you're a PADI trained man. I'm CMAS, and we do things a little differently. I'll try to be as fair as I can but of course I am biased towards my own organisation. However, I attended my sisters PADI OW course too - to see how things were done and keep her company.
If you're CMAS ** (http://www.fbuc.org.za/2star.htm) trained, the depth limit recommendation is 100 feet - precisely as I stated. No need to laugh condescendingly at me - it just gets me slightly annoyed. 2 star CMAS diver can very much be novices, yet have the blessing of their agency to dive to 100 feet.
It's true that new PADI OW divers with all of four dives behind them aren't qualified for 130 feet. However after just 13 dives, PADI says "ok" for 130 feet dives. At 13 dives, the diver is definitely a novice, if even that.
PADI is shop based - dive courses are commercial. Training is limited in time so they can be profitable. They produce safe enough divers.
CMAS here is club based - takes longer, there's more training and more dives. Requirements are slightly higher. they also produce safe divers.
I'm not going to say PADI or CMAS is worse/better. Both organisations produce excellent, safe divers. They go about it differently, that's all.
I'm not sure exactly how to convert between the two systems but I've been told that the CMAS ** certification is PADI OW+AOWD. Let's look at some numbers to see when the two organisations says it's ok for their divers to do the 100 feet stuff.
A PADI diver can do 4 dives for OWD, then take AOWD (5 dives) and a deep diver specialty (another 4 dives). That's a grand total of 13 dives, after which PADI express, through certification, that the diver is qualified for diving to 130 feet.
CMAS: Minimum 5 dives for *. Once the diver has 15 dives, he/she can enroll on the ** program. To get through that the diver must complete a number of dives: all of the following types of qualifying dives must be included:
Night dive, Boat dive, Freshwater dive, Seawater dive, Low visibility dive and a 30m dive. At least 5 dives must be to a depth exceeding 18m . A decompression chamber dive does not qualify.. CMAS ** requires more dives - once yer instructor is happy and you've fulfilled the other requirements, you get yer certificate.
So we have two newbies, one with 13 dives (PADI AOWD) and one with around 25-30 (CMAS **) Both are certified by their respective agencies and have shown those entities the skills required to safely execute dives. And both are novices, with one of them having half the dives the other has.
Diving above 100 feet is, in my opinion, something a scuba diver with 30-40 dives can do quite safely given decent conditions. The 60 feet limit PADI encourages (it's guidelines IIRC, not rules that can be enforced) was probably set because you can easily do an emergency swimming ascent (or whatever it's called in English) from that depth :).
Would it be smart for these guys to go out with their newbie friends and dive to 100-130 feet? 100 feet and a CMAS ** I am ok with, but not 130. A PADI AOWD + Deep Diver with 13 dives to 130 feet? I'm not too comfortable with this. 100 feet - would like him/her to be accompanied by someone with more dives.
Yet both PADI and CMAS say "you're good enough for it and you have the experience - have fun". I think the requirements are far too lax and need to be sharpened a *lot*. Clubs have an advantage here in that experience is built up and the people around you tend to know your skill level and match ya up - in essence, they're baby sitting you. Up the requirements somewhat and baby sitting could be reduced. Doesn't cost that much to raise requirements. For PADI it woud definitely mean loss of customers if it was too hard/took too long to get certified. Not srue what can be done there - other than baby sitting suppossedly qualified divers. That's no good either.
I think my advice, especially as it was based on my CMAS training, is sound enough or at least in line with CMAS regulations.
It may be different for completely new PADI AOWD divers, perhaps 100 feet is too deep. For a CMAS ** diver, it's within the limits and has been done before.
I should add that I looked up the PADI stuff just now. I wasn't aware before I posted that PADI's AOWD course only qualify its divers to dive to 60 feet.
Oh, and wreck diving is my passion too. Where do you usually dive? Favourite dive place? Me: Norway is definitely good. The body of water between Sweden and Finland is good for wrecks too.
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I agree with you the depth limits are WAY to lax.
As far as wreck diving my favorite spots are .
The wreck of the HMS Rhone In the British Virgin Islands.
Very easy dive but alot of fun.
And while Im down there I like to get In a dive on the Chickuzen.
Off the coast of Virgin Gorda.
And then there are planty of fresh water lakes in the Usa that offer good wrecks.
I am planning a dive for the Andria Doria next summer.
Just trying to get all the gear Im going to need .
And trying to get a good team being as It's a 240ft deep dive.
Will be using tri-mix.
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freediving is different.. not using compressed air means no chance of the bends
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Found this little tidbit at: http://www.chinalakealumni.org/1948.htm
• 21 July 1948 -- USAF B-29 s/n 45-21847 conducting Upper Air Research carrying "Sun Tracker" instrumentation developed at Johns Hopkins University's Applied Physics Lab took off from Armitage Field and ditched in Lake Mead. The B-29 unit at Inyokern was gathering supplemental data in conjunction with V-2, Aerobee and Viking rocket flights from White Sands.
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I live in Florida and I do a lot muff diving. I didn't take a course or anything, I kinda taught myself how to do it. My most dangerous time was on a really hairy night dive. I wasn't down that far, but I almost ran out of air :p
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but I almost ran out of air
Try using a snorkel. ;)
dago
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Excellent advice, Dago. :D
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Some photos (primarily the interior) of our B29 at Boeing Field(The thread seemed appropriate to post them in):
Looking at those deep-water photos above, I doubt any bombadier would be crazy enough to remain "under hood" during a crash landing. ;)
(Note the fan in the Rear gunner pressurization tube in pic 7, it was damned hot in that plane under the sun)
(http://home.comcast.net/~ripsnort60/b29bombsite.jpg)
(http://home.comcast.net/~ripsnort60/b29bombsite2.jpg)
(http://home.comcast.net/~ripsnort60/B29controls.jpg)
(http://home.comcast.net/~ripsnort60/B29radioroom.JPG)
(http://home.comcast.net/~ripsnort60/B29station.JPG)
(http://home.comcast.net/~ripsnort60/B29throttle.JPG)
(http://home.comcast.net/~ripsnort60/B29tubetorear.JPG)
(http://home.comcast.net/~ripsnort60/B292.JPG)