Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: JMBAD on December 06, 2003, 11:43:36 PM
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The tailwheel doesnt bother me but the handling in the air does stalls to much never liked it in full realism in air warrior.
I understand AH1 is going away when AH2 is finally through is this true?
If so will there only be an arena with these full realism planes?
I dont like flying AH2 planes if this is the future I'am not paying for it.
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I'm not sure what new arenas of gameplay HTC has in mind, but one thing for sure, is that there will never, ever be a "Relaxed Realism" arena in AH.
Now, I won't comment on your personal preferences, as not everybody shares the same definition of 'fun' when they enjoy AH. but I have to say that you are really missing out very much when you limit yourself to relaxed realism.
Dealing with the intimate but difficult learning curve, is time consuming and can be sometimes frustrating, but the reward is like no other, and the excitement of competition and combat beats the stale stimulation of an air-combat sim gone the way of the 'point-and-click' FPS games.
I can say it so, as I've also enjoyed a lot of Relaxed Realism air-combat games of various kinds, especially played Fighter Ace for a long time. For some time I've considered myself to be an excellent virtual pilot, until I've ran across AH and learned that I sucked, and sucked bad.
Had to learn everything new, and each time gritting my teeth and thinking "ooh, if this stupid game hadn't so much stalls and black outs and red outs and limitations in ammo and fuel, I'd shoot them all down". But then again, there were always people who manage to shoot others down with those same limitations. If they can learn to do it, why not I?
And that, started a long enjoyable time with AH.
I'm sure if you gave the more realistic surroundings a real chance, you will learn to enjoy it more as I have. Cheers!
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The flight model doesn't seem all that different than it does already in AH. Torque is a little bit more pronounced but that's because they've finally fixed the torque modeling. And you also have to remember that this is still a beta and most likely the flight model will get some major tweaking before it's done.
ack-ack
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Have no problem with the realism in ah1 main arena.
Just dont want anymore real than that :)
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Didn't have a problem with the flight model - struggled with the gunnery though - it's similar to IL2 now got to get very, very close.
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I agree with JMbad, dont want the modeling to change from AH. Too realistic modeling takes away from "the game". If I wanted to fly a real plane, I would :0)
The current modeling is why I chose AH for my squad after trying out Warbirds. AH was much simpler to fly. I would not want to have to go through another complete learning curve like what happened when the bomb sight calibration thingy was changed.
I love current modeling hope it remains the same :0) Raptor
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So in other words, you two are just lazy. :D
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Sure, thats it. I spent some time on the AH2 online today and it didnt seem too bad. I know there are many many things left to fix so I will just wait and see what we end up with. It seems like it's gonna be a lot of fun. I was a newbie again trying to figure everything out. Mostly, taking off. Hurry up and give me Zoom and hit sprites......I must have them to survive :0)
http://www.freebirdshome.com
http://com3.runboard.com/bfreebirdsforum2
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Originally posted by FBRaptor
I agree with JMbad, dont want the modeling to change from AH. Too realistic modeling takes away from "the game". If I wanted to fly a real plane, I would :0)
The current modeling is why I chose AH for my squad after trying out Warbirds. AH was much simpler to fly. I would not want to have to go through another complete learning curve like what happened when the bomb sight calibration thingy was changed.
I love current modeling hope it remains the same :0) Raptor
Well I disagree with my CO/ on this point.
I think If you make It as real as you can.
It will put some "skill" into the sim.
Notice I said SIM.
If you want to play a game go buy a microsoft boxed game LOL.
But this Is a SIM.
By making It realistic you will make people learn to fly and learn ACM insteed of just point and shoot.:aok
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I will not argue with a squadmate on an open forum even if it kills
me.
But for anyone else who needs to know....hehe...... I did not suggest that it should be easy......I only said I do not want to have to go through another entire learning curve of learning how to fly again.:mad:
Maybe, I can learn some ACM and skill instead of the oh so easy point and shoot I am used too between now and then. :p
http://www.freebirdshome.com
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Originally posted by FBRaptor
I agree with JMbad, dont want the modeling to change from AH. Too realistic modeling takes away from "the game". If I wanted to fly a real plane, I would :0)
What's the point of this game other than realistic flight models?? And, BTW, you must be pretty lucky if, whenever you want to, you are able to fly real P51s and spits, let alone 190s 109s LA7s and all the rest. The entire point of this game is to be able to simulate as fully as possible the experience of flying a P51 in combat against a 109, without owning those planes. Otherwise, you can just as well play X-wing vs Tie Fighter. Or Quake, for that matter.
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Gents,
From what Pyro said in an earlier post don't even bother with FM issues right now. They are not being tested and are probably running with pre-beta code as HTC is not there yet.
I've been licking my chops to test the new FM and Pyro has yet to mention it's release in the release notes.
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From what I've read we have the same FM as AH for now....but with more "points" modeled on the planes. I'm pretty sure these additional inputs are modeled in the limited plane set already up. So is the "same" FM but with a better set of inputs....at least thats how it's read to me.
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Originally posted by mold
What's the point of this game other than realistic flight models?? And, BTW, you must be pretty lucky if, whenever you want to, you are able to fly real P51s and spits, let alone 190s 109s LA7s and all the rest. The entire point of this game is to be able to simulate as fully as possible the experience of flying a P51 in combat against a 109, without owning those planes. Otherwise, you can just as well play X-wing vs Tie Fighter. Or Quake, for that matter.
Geez, little did I know that making a comment on the boards would bring on such a wrath of condemnation upon me.:(
I totaly retract any personal opinions I have and now officialy agree with everybody. Please do not respond to my earlier thread anymore because I was obviously out of my mind to think about posting anything without checking with mold and others as to what I should think and feel. As you can see I have not yet reached the such honorable position of "senior member" yet so I am still learning that to post an opinion will always bring some sort of wrath from single minded people who think the world as a whole should only feel as they feel. BTW, as usual my opinion has been embelished into something it wasnt meant to be. My point was simply "I only hope the entire flight modeling doesnt cause me to have to re learn how to fly here". BTW Mold, since u wish it to be as real as possible, I must assume you wouldn't be needing things like, auto takeoff, auto climb, zoom in and out, a map on the screen, rearm in only 30 seconds, reupping after being killed, radio text, buff formations by one pilot, the mission planner, supplies repairing gv's on the spot, bailing without the chance of smashing your head on the tail, a big smiling octupous, chat between countries, and on and on and on. Would that be a better game for you? :eek:
Undeserved sarcasm has been returned.......ball is in play:aok
Raptor
http://www.freebirdhome.com
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Sorry dude, I guess I was a little outta line. :) Anyway, I want the flight models to be realistic, because I'm a plane buff and that's why I am in AH rather than another game. I really don't care about other aspects of realism (reload times, etc). And it seems to me that realistic flight models are the thing which makes this game what it is...without that, there is no point calling them planes P51s or 109s...you can just call them Plane A and Plane B, right?
Perhaps the flight models aren't perfect, but they are as close as possible with the knowledge we have, and that's what counts.
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Originally posted by FBRaptor
"I only hope the entire flight modeling doesnt cause me to have to re learn how to fly here".
http://www.freebirdhome.com
everyone will have to relearn how to fly...and since your flying in the beta you have a head start on the new FM...wich means once ah2 leaves beta your gonna be bouncing baby seals (even if they have been flying for years) cause they wont know the planes limits anymore...
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I assume most of you guys flew in AW I remeber several arenas there but 2 that stand out were full realism and relaxed relism, where were most people?
thats right in relaxed realism and I understand that some people want full realism but most do not ,some are just affriad to say so in this forum for some reason.
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Originally posted by mold
Sorry dude, I guess I was a little outta line. :) Anyway, I want the flight models to be realistic, because I'm a plane buff and that's why I am in AH rather than another game. I really don't care about other aspects of realism (reload times, etc). And it seems to me that realistic flight models are the thing which makes this game what it is...without that, there is no point calling them planes P51s or 109s...you can just call them Plane A and Plane B, right?
Perhaps the flight models aren't perfect, but they are as close as possible with the knowledge we have, and that's what counts.
Appology accepted Mold, and please accept mine as well. My response was mostly meant for humor more than meant to hammer anyone. I actualy agree on flight modeling being important to be somewhat realistic rather than arcadish. I realy like the general overall flight charachteristics now and hope they dont change too much.
Also I would like to say that your response to my response shows real character and class. You are a gentleman and a scholor. <> Raptor
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Originally posted by JMBAD
I assume most of you guys flew in AW I remeber several arenas there but 2 that stand out were full realism and relaxed relism, where were most people?
thats right in relaxed realism and I understand that some people want full realism but most do not ,some are just affriad to say so in this forum for some reason.
how many people play quake and how many play flightsims?
most AH people want to play quake and are just afraid to say so.
Bozon
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JMBAD, in a way, you are correct.
No matter how much we try to kid ourselves, a game is a game and never "fully realistic". So it is not surprising that some people are led to the conclusion that easing off/rounding out/simplifying/neutering/(whatever the choice of one's word) is not unnatural to expect. Also, as suggested in some other posts, it may actually increase the player base, or widen the range of the variety of players enjoying AH.
However, when AH abandons a part of its goal, or yields to a certain need outside of absolute necessity, and arbitrarily touches the general environment of the simulation itself, then AH ceases to be AH.
The historicity is what attracts people so devotedly and passionately to simulation games(I define AH as a part of the simulation genre)- getting a chance to live the fantasy means a lot to people. Just as people read novels and history books, they get to experience a part of history - in a much more aggressive manner. Instead of reading books abouth Messerschmitts and Spitfires, they choose to fly one themselves, feeling joy and fun as they experience the difficulties of the pilots, the different characteristics of the planes, and the adrenaline-rush of dogfighting.
As the rule of experiencing goes, "the more real, the better". People know that there are limits within a game, but what is possible in the boundaries of the game itself, they seek to enjoy it to the full.
The great compromise comes with having to deal with some parts of reality within a game. For instance, something like flight time is an issue that must be addressed and yielded before the logic of gameplay. However, the rest of it, the part which makes up combat itself, people do not want to see it smudged.
Ofcourse, when we say 'people' it does not mean everyone. People who do not want full realism, are different breed of gamers from those who come to enjoy AH. It is not as if there is class-distinction or something, between the different types of gamers. However the fact that they are enjoying the same game does not mean that they are the same breed of people. That, cannot be denied.
Difficulty issues, as you suggest, are a trifle matter in reality. In truth, they mean nothing to an avid simulation gamer. Even if one starts out from 'easy mode' or 'relaxed realism' due to difficulty issues, if the gamer himself is interested in what simulation games can offer, sooner or later they move on to 'full realism', or whatever that certain game can offer.
People who aren't interested in it, stay at the 'relaxed realism' level and do not move. Their definition of 'aircombat fun' is different from what most of us come to love in AH. In that case, AH is clearly not what they want. Nor is there any obligation for us to tend to their needs, seeing AH development staff having to split time and resources to provide for people who have problems with the difficulties, and want to enjoy a relaxed game instead of dealing with the learning curve like all of us have.
Why does AH have to do that? There are already 'relaxed realism' arenas, with the same planes, same historic environments, and even better graphics, provided by other games. I can't say I know what Pyro or Hitech has on their mindss, but I have a pretty good guess that as long as it doesn't disturb some major gameplay component, and lies within the boundaries of current AH technology, the creators of AH have absolutely no intention of bending reality to fill the needs of players who cannot handle such realities.
Like said above, if you want relaxed realism, then go somewhere else. People like AH because it is closer to full realism, with good gameplay qualities and impressive on-line numbers. No reason to implement relaxed realism, as the on-line numbers clearly indicate that that much people, are content with how AH currently is.
The price is comparable, graphics are better, the plane choice more various and they have relaxed realism modes, too, in Jaleco's Fighter Ace 3.5.
So, why stay here and rant about it?
Frankly, in a very personal opinion, people wanting Relaxed Realism arenas have no excuses in any way to justify its implementation in AH.
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not ranting about AH.
I love AH like i said just dont want anymore realism than
what we have now
you dont have to try to make me sound like a bad guy just because i speak my mind you can ragg me all you want say silly things but facts are facts not everyone wants a full realism arena why do you think they do just because you do ?
you say if i dont like it go somewhere else AH suits me fine if it changes i will go some where else and i can make that decission for my self thanks
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historicity
I think we have a new word. :)
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Originally posted by Kweassa
JMBAD, in a way, you are correct.
No matter how much we try to kid ourselves, a game is a game and never "fully realistic". So it is not surprising that some people are led to the conclusion that easing off/rounding out/simplifying/neutering/(whatever the choice of one's word) is not unnatural to expect. Also, as suggested in some other posts, it may actually increase the player base, or widen the range of the variety of players enjoying AH.
However, when AH abandons a part of its goal, or yields to a certain need outside of absolute necessity, and arbitrarily touches the general environment of the simulation itself, then AH ceases to be AH.
But here's the problem. If a niche MMOG game like AH wants any chance of surviving it has to make some inroads to appeal to the mass market to capture new players. If a niche MMOG game doesn't do this it will eventually die off. I'm not saying that it has to chuck everything out the window and make this game so gamey (like FA) in order to appeal to the mass market crowd but the stuff that HT has already done like put in the combat trim and the stall limiter and even the complete re-working of the interface in AH2 are good steps to help make the game appeal more to the mass market without sacrificing much in way of how the core game works.
ack-ack
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thats where i believe your wrong ack ack like warbirds when they changed they lost people they all came here to ah ive talked to several of them they left because of the plane handling.
AH has a lot of players because its relaxed and its the best sim in town if you think we will get more players because they make planes full realism i dont believe that.
although i did fly the p51 and it was ok in flight 190a5 is not good though thats one of my fav planes:(
my last post on this subject.
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FR is what fanatics,loonatics, addicted like me want .
But with FR we mean REAL not more difficult than real.
For example FW in AW was a bastard in relation with the real Fw.
Full Realism in FM, in Gunnery, in Damage
Model, torgue or what ever.
BUT we Dont need the mistake of OverRealism witch in fact is more difficult but have nothing to do with the real FM.
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Ack, AH already has a mass market. At least, enough to render profit and ensure continuing developments.
They aren't expanding as big as EA or sponsored by a big partner like Jaleco, Tecmo or Microsoft. Nor do they have big brothers behind their backs like iEN.
The reason HT and co. is keeping the company small is to make it a game of their own choosing, without having to bend everything to what the market wants(and thus, implementing game designs which contradict their own goals).
Combat trim, reading what HT himself has to say about it, is understandable and reasonable compromise between the reality of handling planes and limitations of gaming devices - it is not necessarily bending to fit the needs of people who cannot handle 'absolute realism'.
Stall limiter is different from altering what reality has to offer - as did in FA - it literally stops the plane from entering into a stall by limiting AoA, and thus, offering signifcant disadvantages to people relying on it, compared to people who know how to ride the edge of it. It's not like they offer the same delicate, maximum AoA control of one's plane. If that was possible, that would be neutering.
Granted, it is a game device, but it does not disrupt reality by breaking any rules applied onto the physics of the plane. What's implemented is implemented, and no way to get around it.
Having heard what WB veterans have to say, they come to like AH FM more not because it is easier, but simply it is more realistic - the difficulty and over-mushiness of the controls in WB(in their own words), is a classic case of 'over-realism' and has had lengthy discussions.
Hades is right about "over-realism", but I don't see any over-realism at all. What sort of 'over-realism' is there in AH or AH2? If 'over-realism' is defined as "being too hard for people, whether or not how realistic it is", then the precautions against over-realism inevitably leads to neutering.
If 'over-realism' is defined as "tendency to make things harder than in real life, by appealing to the 'more difficult = more real' misconception people hold", then THAT kind of over-realism, must be avoided.
So the planes stall more in AH2? Is that 'over-realism' as in 'it's more difficult and I don't like it'?, or as in 'it's more difficult than real life, and the FM is wrong'? Or, does that somehow kill gameplay in a profound way? I don't see many people complaining about it - in fact, I've only seen two people so far, whether on-line or off-line, and their both on this thread.
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Originally posted by JMBAD
thats where i believe your wrong ack ack like warbirds when they changed they lost people they all came here to ah ive talked to several of them they left because of the plane handling.
I was one of those. But that was because the handling was unrealistic. Mushbirds. AH is more realistic than Warbirds.
Originally posted by Kweassa
Having heard what WB veterans have to say, they come to like AH FM more not because it is easier, but simply it is more realistic - the difficulty and over-mushiness of the controls in WB(in their own words), is a classic case of 'over-realism' and has had lengthy discussions.
Yes, exactly. Mush was introduced because of netlag difficulties, and realism was knowingly sacrificed--that's straight from the horse's mouth, I believe.
Originally posted by Kweassa
If 'over-realism' is defined as "tendency to make things harder than in real life, by appealing to the 'more difficult = more real' misconception people hold", then THAT kind of over-realism, must be avoided.
Absolutely true.