Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: 214thCavalier on December 07, 2003, 02:36:37 PM
-
Couple of points.
First its probably not my place to raise em as i was tagging along with 101 squad.
Getting assigned to bomber duties 2 weeks running is not good, not fun and will not keep me coming back.
(Personal opinion no idea of 101's view)
We upped in boston formations and within 15 minutes the squad were dead, although Viff may have held out longer on his own.
We had just climbed to 14k when we were spotted by 109's and attacked.
Not a single CAP fighter anywhere to be seen, we never got any further than 25 miles from our take off base.
SSOP's are not supposed to be this way.
I do not look forward to Sundays just so I can up in bombers week after week and basically get raped within 25 miles of your take off base with non existant fighter cover.
-
cal when i was in SSO with my squad it was very fun. The simple solution is that SSO needs more numbers.
-
I was wondering if the Axis attacked our CV at any time during the frame, we didnt see much action over it.
-
:( cav, im sorry for broke your fun twice week in a row
i cannot promice 3rd frame in a row we will fly fighters, but if you still looking for sunday squad , you are welcom in 315
ramzey
-
speaking of which i haven't done SSO in a while who like me for next week?:D Im very good bomber dweeb and i enjoy flying them :)
-
Originally posted by 214thCavalier
Couple of points.
First its probably not my place to raise em as i was tagging along with 101 squad.
Getting assigned to bomber duties 2 weeks running is not good, not fun and will not keep me coming back.
(Personal opinion no idea of 101's view)
I do not look forward to Sundays just so I can up in bombers week after week and basically get raped within 25 miles of your take off base with non existant fighter cover.
We all get rides we do not like. I would say the majority of the time you get what you want. Sounds also like your CAP may have some explaining to do.
Why don't you sign up a squad for SSO and bring a few friends. As FRAME CO you can pick your ride .... :)
-
Skernsk, sorry my friend you are not in topic ;)
-
Skernsk I along with many others just dont enjoy buffing.
HOWEVER for SOP's i will fly Buffs when required.
But when its 2 weeks running for me that says the side CO is not checking what the previous asignments were.
I thought it was generally accepted that buff duties need to be spread around and not dumped on the same squad for consecutive weeks.
Its a 2 hour scenario for fek sake, Nobody is going to be happy getting bounced out as a squad like this.
As for signing up a squad no thanks, I was SSOP CO for MAG33 been there and done it.
Frame CO definitely not for me, I dont have the time or inclination to do the job.
-
We upped in boston formations and within 15 minutes the squad were dead, although Viff may have held out longer on his own.
We had just climbed to 14k when we were spotted by 109's and attacked.
I think this is the main issue.
Had we not been bounced so early we may have had a chance to involve the escort. and heres the reason why:
(http://students.sivan.co.il/599-1/viff/sso/map.jpg)
Look where A4 , A35 , & A21 are located.
Thats right, just barely 1 sector away from each other.
Didn't even help that we climbed our Bostons West to try and delay contact with any enemy aircraft, they were right on top of us within the first 15 min of the frame. Can you imagine what would have happened if we climbed directly East ?
CM team plz take notice. This is definately starting to resemble KOTH.
-
As for 101 Sqn getting assigned buffs on the 2nd frame: I didn't think it was worth complaining for three reasons:
1. As allied CO of the 1st frame I assigned my squad to SBD dive bombers, but I also made sure that we sequesterd the 4 sleek Seafires as well :)
2. We like buffing, especialy if it involves in B-17s.
3. I didn't want to give Markal a hard time :)
I any case for frame 3 lets make sure 101 Sqn gets assigned to the pure air to air roll with the best fighter out there...
Please. :)
!
-
Originally posted by ViFF
. Can you imagine what would have happened if we climbed directly East ?
i can, you will pass safe ;) and get bounced over target 1 hour later
-
Originally posted by B17Skull12
speaking of which i haven't done SSO in a while who like me for next week?:D Im very good bomber dweeb and i enjoy flying them :)
Allways welcome to fly with 308 :)
-
Originally posted by ViFF
CM team plz take notice. This is definately starting to resemble KOTH.
I hope you are trying to be funny!
If you want to climb into enemy territory that is your own look out. When we made contact with the bostons you were at least 25 miles in front of your own lines, not a safe place to be withourt escort.
If you want to be safe, climb NE would have been the best thing to do.
I am sorry this has happened to you VIFF, but I won't be held responsable for people being bounced in SSO, there was a perfactly safe direction for the bombers to climb out in, and for some reason you guys climbed out over the front line.
Remeber what happened when I put rules into place to prevent bombers being bounced?
KOTH has a alt cap. SSO does not.
-
Originally posted by 214thCavalier
Getting assigned to bomber duties 2 weeks running is not good, not fun and will not keep me coming back.
(Personal opinion no idea of 101's view)
There is a side forum for all squad COs to make their plane preferances known, currently only the Axis appear to be makeing significant use of it.
-
Remember i brought the subject up not Viff or 101.
Bostons rolled sw runway out of A4, we grabbed west to 14k.
At this point we turned hdg SE and spotted high dots almost immediately.
After radio coms decided they must be enemy we turned tail and ran for protection of nearest base which happened to be our radar facility in 1.4 and thats where we went down.
Points I feel need to be considered for future events.
Bombers should not be expected to roll from a field that is only 30 miles from a front line enemy field.
There are rear fields that could and should have been used by the bombers.
If your frame plans include upping bombers, then you MUST arrange for escorts to be on station when needed.
Lose your bombers within the first 15 minutes and you are now defensive for the next 1.75 hours and extremely unlikely to achieve your objectives.
I try to keep in mind this is a SOP scenario, which to me means trying to accomplish your mission and survive to rtb if possible within the 2 hour timeframe.
So getting smashed by 109's within 15 minutes while still carrying a full load of fuel and bombs with no escort is not my idea of how SOP's is meant to be.
-
we were at 2.4 4 when bounced,
we took off from 4, headed west to the 2.5 1 cross, and then turned to 120, I would have said that the 3 line was our front line, this being so we were behind our own lines.
Regardless, it wasn't much fun for 101,
wipass
-
Design of the scenario *may* put you in a situation that is not so comfortable for you (i'm just a pilot there and weren't involved in designing or plannyn any mission for my side. don't know if this is the issue here.). If this happened, you still can try to win it. If you are looking for some help with it, do what Gray said - use the CO's forum :)
(by "you" i mean every CO leaqding a side)
There is no rule forcing you to do it, but you can ask for advice or opinion... to propose something... also a Squad CO's may post theis advices ther and suggest things. This is simple but great tool we havn't used during Operation Torch.
a) bad design is allways a CM's fault
b) bad commanding is a CO's fault
c) bad flying is a pilots fault
:)
-
===================================
"Points I feel need to be considered for future events.
Bombers should not be expected to roll from a field that is only 30 miles from a front line enemy field.
There are rear fields that could and should have been used by the bombers.
a/b?
If your frame plans include upping bombers, then you MUST arrange for escorts to be on station when needed.
b
Lose your bombers within the first 15 minutes and you are now defensive for the next 1.75 hours and extremely unlikely to achieve your objectives.
b/c
...
So getting smashed by 109's within 15 minutes while still carrying a full load of fuel and bombs with no escort is not my idea of how SOP's is meant to be."
b/c
===========================================
I believe most of it could be avoided with using a Allied foum more :)
Yes, being downed after 15mins of ANY event is frustrating and not fun at all :(
-
Yep, use the Side forums - that's exactly why they are there! So that all Squad COs can help the Side CO for each week by discussing the plans and making suggestions about how they could be improved. :)
-
you think you got it bad....this is the first tour for ages we have been axis...
last week we were assigned 202 to go do a job they wernt used for ...this week we were split up with mix of 202s and 109s sent to defend multi bases with planes that dont have anywhere near same range,, and we didnt see any enemy for 90 mins...
now that a good way to keep us comming back..
-
Originally posted by SELECTOR
you think you got it bad....this is the first tour for ages we have been axis...
last week we were assigned 202 to go do a job they wernt used for ...this week we were split up with mix of 202s and 109s sent to defend multi bases with planes that dont have anywhere near same range,, and we didnt see any enemy for 90 mins...
now that a good way to keep us comming back..
?????
what i did wrong? f4f vs mc202 is a bad match? i really did not know about seafires. I should mention you was not forced to take 202 for whole squad. So? whats the problem?
-
Originally posted by Flossy
Yep, use the Side forums - that's exactly why they are there! So that all Squad COs can help the Side CO for each week by discussing the plans and making suggestions about how they could be improved. :)
you are wrong flossy
dont knwo why do you think somone will "discuss" plan of battle with CiC. As SL all what i expect is get orders and forward them to my troop. I will not complain about assignment or orders, i just follow them. I bet most of other SL too. Just following " shut up and fly".
During week i really have no time for this and orders are orders. SL must follow main objectives, thats not mean must follow every word of CiC orders.
So, forum is to post and recive orders not for discuss
-
Originally posted by ramzey
you are wrong flossy
.
.
.
So, forum is to post and recive orders not for discuss
I wholeheartedly disagree.
I was CO for Frame #1 for FSO.
I posted my original plan and asked for the other CO's to look it over and spot any obvius holes I may have missed and for them to look it over and make sure they understood what I was asking them to do.
This also gives the CM a chance to look at the plans and point out anything that may be against the rules or something I may have missed or something that needed to be clarified.
It is also a great place to post AFTER Frame reports - talk about what did and did not work and why.
It is also a great place for NEW FRAME CO's to look at what went into to previous plans to help the strategize thier plans for the next frame. They can also ask questions of the other CO's to bounce ideas off of.
It is a great place for FIRST TIME CO's to see what goes into a good AND bad plan so they can learn from others mistakes.
For those CO's willing to put a few minutes a day into reading thier Sides Forum it can be a BIGG help in the long run for ALL Involved.
Just my 2 cents worht.
-
What Jordi said double.
I was allied CO Friday Squad OPS and posted a Preliminary plan of attack and requested criticisim and ideas. I received input from various CO"s and a few CM's and all was greatly appreciated.
I found it very educational and learned alot about planes capabilities, and assignments.
Some I incorporated into the Final Plan of Attack others I did not.
But as i stated it was a helpful tool
-
Originally posted by ramzey
you are wrong flossy
Oh, you think so? You think I don't know what I agreed to and why? :rolleyes: It was discussed in depth in the CM Forum (following daddog's thread asking the SO players for their opinions on how SquadOps could be improved) and we decided it would help COs if there were forums set up to make planning a bit more coordinated and allow for discussion. We also thought it would be especially useful for COs who are new to SquadOps, to help them get a better idea. :)
-
Okay my DSL is finally back and I am busy catching up on the last two weeks of email and postings.
As for this thread guys this all comes down to an issue of people making decisions on each side. You have now both email addresses and forums for each side. Basically you have been given the tools to communicate with each other and plan as much in depth and ask for other C.O.s input as little as much as you wish.
Now as for the original start of the thread:
Getting assigned to bomber duties 2 weeks running is not good, not fun and will not keep me coming back.
(Personal opinion no idea of 101's view)
CMs do not track or indicate to the frame CiCs what squad they should assign to what planes. We supply objectives, special rules/orders and notes on what planes can be used and how many min and max. After that we try to leave things as open as possible so as not to tie the CiCs hands in creating a battle plan. After all we don't want to watch a puppet show but want to give the selected CiC's a chance to be creative and can up with something unexpected.
Now the down side of this is that some CiCs may not simply realize when creating plans that another squad has already done a tour in bombers or that a squad has done two frames in the best planes that they have for the side. This is simple an individual thing .. some squad C.O.s track everything. Some don't and don't take into consideration who flew what in the past frame.
Not much the CMs can do about this. However, as pointed out you can send an email to the selected CiC or post in your sides forum. Every CiC that I have seen usually is rather accomodating when at all possible.
But you guys now have as many tools as we can give you to communicate and plan if you desire too. If you don't .. as Ramzey states .. that is fine. If you do want to put your collective heads together and give the selected CiC some feedback that is good too.
Some CiCs welcome feedback. Others don't.
We had just climbed to 14k when we were spotted by 109's and attacked.
Not a single CAP fighter anywhere to be seen, we never got any further than 25 miles from our take off base.
Sorry it happens. I don't know the battle plan so I don't know what happen to the CAP fighters but there are always the possibility of things like this happening. A squad is late getting into position, gets pulled out of position, a squad C.O. makes a bad call and goes off in the wrong direction exposing another squad, etc.
After given objectives, etc. Squad Ops is about free will and choices. Each CiC faces a number of choices and then each squad C.O. is faced with choices to be made as the battle develops. After all no battle plan remains intact after contact with the enemy. But the event is about dealing with these choices as the battle unfurls. Just like in real life many things hinge on the CiC, the squad C.O. and the individual pilots.
If coordination seems to be during the battle among forces only way to deal with it is communication. Plus, pre battle planning via email and forums is one route. Or some CiCs have been known not fly at all and instead to act as ground control during the whole battle directing and redeploying their forces instead of flying.
I guess what I am trying to say is that somethings CMs can do and some we can not. We don't want to cross the line into a scripted event but allow for everyone to make decisions and choices.
Sometimes people overlook something or fail (i.e. two frames in row in bombers). They don't do it out of spite and are usually open to suggestions and discussion.
-
When I read the announcement, I thought that it would be like Jordi described.
When I got access before last sunday SO and after I got the orders forwarded, I was pretty surprised that it was more like ramzey described. And from what I read about "Allied Forum", communication is even worse there.
Even though, orders are not created in teamwork (or do you want that?), the frame CiC can ask for suggestions and should ask, if anybody needs changes (not satisfied for any reason).
But some people don't need it (our old aces) or don't want it or don't use it (like now; for what ever reason).
How about putting a more clear declaration in the sticky thread on how the side forum should be used?
And sometimes it's not enough to show the way, but also push them to the right way, too. ;)
Just one example: the admin CM could publish the orders only in the side forum. There are more ways.
I'm a little surprised, that you think the COs are using it not like you wanted them to do after 2 frames!
p.s. I would always give access for CO, XO and the frame CO to the side forums. ;)
Yes, it doubles the work for the moderator of it. :D
-
Lucull,
Your right some CiCs don't want it or will use the side forums. 68KO and Jordi used their side forums for FSO to bounce ideas off of people.
Its really up to the individual CiC. Like you said some will just do what they want. That is fine and acceptable. Some will use it to discuss ideas and AAR to figure out what they did right or wrong after the frame.
We will just have to wait and see how people actually end up using them.
As for posting the orders just in the squad forum. Well I would post them both their and via email. I don't want to just post them in the squad forum because if a squad CO & XO don't log in then they might not get them.
We just had a case where we thought a squad was reading the forums and knew the were the CiC for the frame. And after the fact found out they had not read the forum for like a month.
So to be safe both ways.
-
Using both ways of communictaion might be even better and more secure, that's right.
Posting them in the forum gives the people that like to give their input (appreciated or not) the possibility to post before the final orders are sent.
A squad could for instance say: "please let us fly B17s" or "we are historical Spit squadron" or ....
But I disagree on one point. If you really want the people to use the side forums, you should push them to use it. It's a great idea, but it only works if all use it.
Personally, it is mandatory for COs to read the forum(s). ;)
-
OK I never saw any of the orders, so have no idea what was actually carved in stone etc.
My points re getting bombers to up from a front line field only 30 miles from enemy, i would assume CM assigned aircraft to specific bases ?
Whoever was responsible for that 1 CM or not in my opinion got it badly wrong.
Axis Cap also suffered as stated earlier they were over target and saw nothing for 1.5 hours.
And "Getting assigned to bomber duties 2 weeks running is not good, not fun and will not keep me coming back.
(Personal opinion no idea of 101's view)"
This is firmly in the lap of frame CO, again in my opinion they should check previous assignments when assigning orders.
Yea I know opinions coming from somebody who puts nothing back into SOP probably are as welcome as crap on boots.
However for me SOP's and CAP are the most enjoyable parts of AH so i feel entitled to piss on the bonfire from time to time.
And i hope nobody thinks i am having a go at them personally, all CM's and squad CO's deserve all the support they get for what is mostly a thankless task.
In fact my points would apparently have been at home in the Side CO forum.
If all that happens is Frame CO's check in there, then its been worthwhile.
-
Originally posted by 214thCavalier
OK I never saw any of the orders, so have no idea what was actually carved in stone etc.
My points re getting bombers to up from a front line field only 30 miles from enemy, i would assume CM assigned aircraft to specific bases ?
Whoever was responsible for that 1 CM or not in my opinion got it badly wrong.
Axis Cap also suffered as stated earlier they were over target and saw nothing for 1.5 hours.
And "Getting assigned to bomber duties 2 weeks running is not good, not fun and will not keep me coming back.
(Personal opinion no idea of 101's view)"
This is firmly in the lap of frame CO, again in my opinion they should check previous assignments when assigning orders.
Yea I know opinions coming from somebody who puts nothing back into SOP probably are as welcome as crap on boots.
However for me SOP's and CAP are the most enjoyable parts of AH so i feel entitled to piss on the bonfire from time to time.
And i hope nobody thinks i am having a go at them personally, all CM's and squad CO's deserve all the support they get for what is mostly a thankless task.
In fact my points would apparently have been at home in the Side CO forum.
If all that happens is Frame CO's check in there, then its been worthwhile.
Cavalier you are a victim of being "walkon" ;)
You have right to complain about 2 weeks in bombers, but blame your CO. He should react if he not like fly bombers 2 weeks in a row. But as Viff state, they have fighters 2 weeks ago and as i see this week too. So blame your CO ;-)
but remember you agree to take same duty as whole 101 squadron. If they not complain about planes, you should not too
Im wonder why expirienced CiC not complain about unescorted bombers. From other way , why the hell you head just to axis cap? to find shortest and closest way to target? strange for me. 90 deg turn ( to west) to run form enemy itsd weird too. Your fighters was NE of you.
It was route sent by CIC? blame CIC
Fields are too close? yes you right
Axis cap fly 1,5 hour without contact with enemy?. We cannot expect you not have secound strike squadron.
Here is a weeknes of design
2 targets to attack 2 targets to defend. Good, but not for 60 people. Its for 100+ on arena. When somone realise that? ;-)
CiC is forced to set defense cap over both targets, if strike is stopped on first , cap on secound "suffer". Thats was happend many times , last week for 56 firebirds too. We spend a lot of time in air standing on cap over not attacked target( not this TOD of course).
So, blame CM's? ;-)
As i supose all active allies airfields have same planeset open. One restriction was som planes must be used (mostly not less then 4). And thats it. Setup was done good in both frames.
I hope next frame wil be better for you
-
@Ghostdancer, Flossy, Jordi , Jim
Side forum for CO and XO IS a PROGRESS
But whats work good for friday not mean will good work for sunday.
If somone like to use it as source of ideas , its ok
If somone not its ok too (as Ghostdancer wrote)
In this case we have lack of CIC rules and maybe lack of expirience. For me as beginer very helpful was my former squadies (Dinger, Funked). Do we need guideline for CIC? with unwrited ( so far) rules.
Personal i not have interest in being CIC , its only duty i take as SL
(and nowhere is writed as SL i should ;-) , whould i mention im poor CiC? ;) -)
So we are still short of good events webpage (blame cm's? ;-) )
ramzey
-
Originally posted by ramzey
But whats work good for friday not mean will good work for sunday.
Yeah, funny how that generally seems to be the case
-Sik
-
Originally posted by ramzey
Here is a weeknes of design
2 targets to attack 2 targets to defend. Good, but not for 60 people. Its for 100+ on arena. When somone realise that? ;-)
It seems obvious to have only one target to attack and defend with the level of players we have, but the problem is this;
No one wants a KOTH type furball in the first 15 mins and nothing for the next hour and three quarters. With only one target you virtually guarantee this will happen.
How do we get round this problem? I don’t know, and I cannot think of any better solution at the moment. Ideas please!
We had nearly 70 players on Sunday so maybe things will be better as the numbers grow.
-
Originally posted by 214thCavalier
My points re getting bombers to up from a front line field only 30 miles from enemy, i would assume CM assigned aircraft to specific bases ?
I rarely attach planes to specific bases as this restrict creativity of the frame CO.
Last Sunday no types were attached to any airfield.
Your right, it is a thankless task.
-
Last Sunday no types were attached to any airfield.
Well thats good to know. If it was up to me we would have launched from A19, but the orders i recieved from Markal specificaly noted A4 and a specific route to the target.
Next time if a frame CO asks me to launch buffs from a field only 1 sector away from the bad guys- I will ask him to reconsider :)
-
Originally posted by ramzey
Fields are too close? yes you right
Here is a weeknes of design
2 targets to attack 2 targets to defend. Good, but not for 60 people. Its for 100+ on arena. When somone realise that? ;-)
CiC is forced to set defense cap over both targets, if strike is stopped on first , cap on secound "suffer". Thats was happend many times , last week for 56 firebirds too. We spend a lot of time in air standing on cap over not attacked target( not this TOD of course).
So, blame CM's? ;-)
I feel the need to respond to a few of your comments ramzey It is not intended as a flame or anything but as a member of the team I feel I have the right to reply with a level head.
Were there other fields FARTHER back that the CO could have taken off from? Or was the CO TOLD by the CM to take bombers from THAT base and fly in THAT direction. You are a little quick on blaming the CM ... why is that I wonder?
I totally disagree that 2 offensive and 2 defensive objectives are too many. With numbers around 60 that is 15 PLAYERS per objecitve. Sounds to me like that is a pretty decent number. Would you go with more or less and why??
Any less and it seems to me you would have a giant furball erupt.
Finally the 'what works for Friday may not work for Sunday' is just plain WRONG and for that I 'blame you'. It is a poor attitude to have and is never going to change anything.
Friday's work with the EXACT same format as Sunday. Forums are identical and Friday squadrons chose to communicate more than the Sunday event THIS TIME. It has only been two weeks ... perhaps wait a cycle or two of Squad-Ops before making any drastic changes.
So far most if not all complaints here could have been avoided with better communication between squad-CO's and Frame CO. And it is impossible to please all the squads all the time so once in a while squads have to go two or even 3 frames in rides that are not their favorite.
-
From the replies here you have convinced me
all complaints here could have been avoided with better communication between squad-CO's and Frame CO
Please consider communicating in the CO forum.
Nuff said.
-
why cant i acces the alllied forum?
or is it only for COs ? :(
-
Originally posted by Flyboy
why cant i acces the alllied forum?
or is it only for COs ? :(
you guys not have distributions of orders to you squad members????
my squadies mostly not read orders, but orders are allways posted on on our BB
-
Skernsk
this week was combination of bad orders frm CiC, CO who forget to think about what hes doing and small design foult ( not huge, but still .....). First frame has front bbases allmost 3 sectors away from airfield to enemy field. So..... noone was complaining.
Finally the 'what works for Friday may not work for Sunday' is just plain WRONG and for that I 'blame you'. It is a poor attitude to have and is never going to change anything
but its TRUE
I totally disagree that 2 offensive and 2 defensive objectives are too many. With numbers around 60 that is 15 PLAYERS per objecitve. Sounds to me like that is a pretty decent number. Would you go with more or less and why??
as previous tour. one side attack secound defend
to attack 3 targets (2 from 3 to choice)At last was less complaining about furball then "not see action"
And as i saw axis have no problems with comunication at all. Ts that up form expirience of CiC?
-
Flyboy no worries, I will make sure to copy & paste any orders from the allied forum to our hebrew forum on ILF, and will send a link in email...
but I ain't translating them to hebrew ! :p
-
Okay,
The 2 targets to attack and 2 targets to defend problem:
In theory, the CM wants the CiC to defend both and attack both. If the CiC wants to get 100% of possible points. He has to do that. With 30 people on one side (sum of 60 people), the CiC has to split his forces into 4 groups (7-8 each). Now he has his first problem. He has small (4-6) and big squads (7-10). Secondly, it's a directive to concentrate forces. If he concentrates his forces, he can't defend both with same strenght. The attacker on the other side, doesn't want to send his troops to a target and being outnumbered by defending forces. He concentrates his attacking forces therefor. If you split your forces for attacking/defending 50:50), that means ~15 people. If you have bombers, you need to have at least 4 of them (order by CM) and put the rest into fighters. If the CiC wants to attack both targets at the same time with 2 different forces, it means 4 bomber/jabos and 4 cover each.
Those 8 attackers will met now the defending forces. In theory it would be same strenght, but the cover would be outnumbered already 2:1. If the attackers are lucky, the defending forces have been concentrated and therefor they will meet small or even no defending forces. If it runs bad, the defenders have been concentrated right at the attacked field.
Now, if the defenders don't stay over the field waiting, but CAP the front area to intercept attacks before the field and the attackers use front sweep, they both have to concentrate their forces even more, which brings us to the next problem. If you concentrate again, you end up with 1 attack group and 1 defending group. But if both do that, the defenders again outnumber the attackers, which brings us to the next step of concentrating, the CiC decides to be "aggressive" and puts all of his people into one big attack group, hoping that he will be better in attacking and that field acks might do the defending.
And there comes the other problem. What if both, put their troops into attack? 2 possible ways can happen then. They meet half way in a big furball or they miss each other and probably meet on their way back or never meet. That would mean, that the one who killed more and lost less to field acks wins.
I saw all of the above described happen in sunday SO and I don't liked it.
That's one reason why IMO "Channel Wars" was better for small forces, because only one had to attack and one had to defend. It works great for smaller numbers. For big numbers 200+, you risk the big kludge effect (concentrating forces into one big furball) by CiCs concentrating their forces. So, you divide up forces by assigning targets to attack and defend. And there it works.
And that's the reason why Friday and Sunday are different. They need different designs as long as the numbers very low on one hand and big on the other.
This is my personal analysis of the situation. Not everybody will agree and I don't say I'm the one who is right, but I saw all the stuff I described above happen and I think it was for the reasons I wrote.
I hope I didn't step on anybodies feet. It was not my intention and I hope nobody takes anything written above personally. Remember I'm not native englsih speaker, therefor might things sounds different than I mean them. :)
-
Originally posted by skernsk
I totally disagree that 2 offensive and 2 defensive objectives are too many. With numbers around 60 that is 15 PLAYERS per objecitve. Sounds to me like that is a pretty decent number. Would you go with more or less and why??
History has proven (in SSO) that the CO who concentrates his forces generally wins. There has been a definite trend of COs only attacking one target, and winning the frame.
When you have a CO who tries to follow the rules (as Markal did) he gets beat due to his forces being spread out thinner than his opponent.
-
I am not totally 'qualified' to argue the points as I did not particpate in even one Sunday Squad-Op but I do know that ALL targets should be attacked ... it is a rule.
Frames are designed so the both sides will cross each other's path and the defenders will attack the oncoming planes. If a squadron is tasked to cap A1 and the CO decided not to attack it then you have 10-15 guys flying around for two hours doing nothing .. .where is the fun in that.
ALL frame CO's must understand that when they get a set of objectives they must attack ALL and must defend ALL. This may be why the Friday squads are not having as many issues. They all know this rule and follow it.
NUMBER OF OBJECTIVES
If I understand you correct ramzey you are saying intstead of 4 objectives (2 offensive and 2 defensive) to make it around 3. In my opinion it is better to have the numbers thinned out by adding another objective. Being used to a larger number .. we try for around 5 or 6 objectives. That is roughly 15-20 players per objective per side. It makes for some intense fighting.
Thanks for the reply ...
-
Originally posted by bike killa
Allways welcome to fly with 308 :)
could you email me here (swa2467@hotmail.com) plz:)
-
amen brother lucull:cool:
Originally posted by AndyH
History has proven (in SSO) that the CO who concentrates his forces generally wins. There has been a definite trend of COs only attacking one target, and winning the frame.
When you have a CO who tries to follow the rules (as Markal did) he gets beat due to his forces being spread out thinner than his opponent.
and noone tould him to walk on the edge of rules ;-)
Markal, no worry buddy next time will be better, every of us have "bad " day on SOPS
Originally posted by skernsk
I am not totally 'qualified' to argue the points as I did not particpate in even one Sunday Squad-Op but I do know that ALL targets should be attacked ... it is a rule.
you are wrong in this , quote form objectives
Your job is to destroy logistic supplies at a depot and hunt and destroy an Allied fleet belived to be operating in the marked area om the map.
NOTE: Anything mention in the above description is not a rule or be taken as a task objective. The above description is only included to add flavour to the scenario. All taskes, rules, special rules, and objectives are note below and take precedence over anything in the description.
Frames are designed so the both sides will cross each other's path and the defenders will attack the oncoming planes. If a squadron is tasked to cap A1 and the CO decided not to attack it then you have 10-15 guys flying around for two hours doing nothing .. .where is the fun in that.
no is not, but is enforced by strategy, tactics and SA
Why somone whould send 3 or 4 people for death? when defence cap waiting for them ? Better is concentrate bigger force, take airsuperiority over first target, cut safe pass and retreat path. Return for rearm, judge resources and decide , do secound strike or not.
So here is moral choose.
Send somone for sure death or not?
ALL frame CO's must understand that when they get a set of objectives they must attack ALL and must defend ALL. This may be why the Friday squads are not having as many issues. They all know this rule and follow it.
no, they have diferent numbers
Attacking one target is not against rules, beucose noone of CiC can predict how many strike poplanes will left for secound attack.
Usual secound attack IS in battle plan, but mostly is no planes left to do this.
NUMBER OF OBJECTIVES
If I understand you correct ramzey you are saying intstead of 4 objectives (2 offensive and 2 defensive) to make it around 3. In my opinion it is better to have the numbers thinned out by adding another objective. Being used to a larger number .. we try for around 5 or 6 objectives. That is roughly 15-20 players per objective per side. It makes for some intense fighting.
Thanks for the reply ... [/B]
15-20 players for objective is ok, but its half of side forces.
Count with me please, that 4 objectives per frame , usual we have around 30 players per side.
its 7-8 players per objective. thats mean 2 defence fighters cap (around 15 pilots)
2 strike groups 2x 7 (or )
each strike group should have strike planes + fighter cover
tell me now please how to split forces inside strike group to give them chance to come back? if somwher ther waiting 7 fighters ready to kill them.
no offence , im just courious, when do you last time lead frame in squad operiations?
-
Sorry ramzzey. I was thinking that SSO had 60 per side therefore 4 objectives would be 15 pilots per objective.
As for leading a frame ... no I never have. I have seen dozens of orders from frame CO's if that counts.
-
so you see, numbers must determinate design
Friday design is good and work for 200+
Sunday design is the same but wont work for 60 players ( both side)
No is not ;-) before i start leading SOPS i read lots of orders too
but is not help when you must decide about others
CIC have choices
1. Follow objectives for all cost and loose (rhats mean his troops will be sloughtered)
2. Walk on the edge with rules and win ( fun for one side)
3. Let all fly, have fun and dont care about objectives (fun for one side)
so what you will choice?
Design CM assign planes whichone MUST be used ( in number of 4 , usual). What CIC should tell to guys flying ju87 ? or unescorted and poor bombers?
well CiC duty is not so easy
-
btw if we talk about expirience
how many of peoples writing her was CIC on SOPS last year?
AndyH, Lucull, Viff, me, skull as i remember, wipass?
-
Don't forget us FSO CO's !
I have done my fair share !
Just saying ( tm Pasha )
-
Originally posted by ramzey
btw if we talk about expirience
how many of peoples writing her was CIC on SOPS last year?
AndyH, Lucull, Viff, me, skull as i remember, wipass?
Yeah i was very eager to CiC when i was in SSO. Was fun to. i woukd have done it again but my squad just disappeared on me.:(
-
Originally posted by jordi
Don't forget us FSO CO's !
I have done my fair share !
Just saying ( tm Pasha )
Jordi we have problems with Sunday not Friday SO ;-)
-
Originally posted by ramzey
btw if we talk about expirience
how many of peoples writing her was CIC on SOPS last year?
AndyH, Lucull, Viff, me, skull as i remember, wipass?
To me it seems the EXPERIENCED CIC's from Sunday should be helping out the NEW CIC's.
If a NEW CIC makes a plan that does not seem to "WORK" the experienced CIC's should help out even if it is a "Subtle" Suggestion to the CIC.
You can not just say, as an EXPERIENCED CIC , I will just go with plan no matter how flawed it may be without speaking up either in an email or on the forums.
Just my 2 cents worth at least.
-
Originally posted by ramzey
btw if we talk about expirience
how many of peoples writing her was CIC on SOPS last year?
AndyH, Lucull, Viff, me, skull as i remember, wipass?
Ramzey, correct me if i'm wrong :)
You are asking but are you trying to say that guys who weren't a side CO's in Sunday SOps shouldn't post here? Or their opinion can not be a right one? Or the "friday" guys shouldn't post because they are not flying/commanding on Sundays? Can my vote count as i was a CIC in a SOps many times (TOD actiually) in the past? ;)
You are right, we have a problem with Sunday event, however identical event is running on Friday and is popular and running without any major problems as i believe... so a word from a Friday SOPs CIC is more then worth to read. I'm not sure what was your intention there but imo every vote can be hlepfull.
I believe that your intention was not to say to anyone something like "my opinion is worth more then yours" but you had a reason to post that question for sure...
Just a question :)
I'm a CM but nowdays i'm NOT involved in designing SOps (just to keep it clear for you).
What was the reason of my post? It's simple :)
We (as a people involved in the SSOps) should help CM's to make it better.
Everyone ius welcome to help - a regular pilot, squadron leader, CIC and also a Friday SOPs[/b] pilot or whoever you name :) Just everyone who have something to say, something constructive, so the CM (noone else, because CM's are responsible for design) can take whatever he feel is valuable and use it, make the event better :)
then again, no matter who said what. If it's helpfull, it's just great.
Ramzey, please excuse me if i got your intentions wrong (i'm just not sure what was your reason to ask).
Finally i do think that people approach for the Friday and Sunday SOPs is different.. .and that is also what makes the events different. That's what i think anyway.
-
Admin CM should allways review the CO's plans and OK them before they are sent out. Yes this is micromanagement to an extent, but if a frame sucks even if it was the COs fault, ultimately who's responsibility is it?
More than two objectives per side is too many for 60 participants.
In my experience a lot of sqops players don't know how to bomb, don't want to learn, and generally view being assigned to buffs as a negative thing. Are there any bomber squads that play sqops ?
-
You are asking but are you trying to say that guys who weren't a side CO's in Sunday SOps shouldn't post here? Or their opinion can not be a right one? Or the "friday" guys shouldn't post because they are not flying/commanding on Sundays? Can my vote count as i was a CIC in a SOps many times (TOD actiually) in the past?
No need to be polemic here. ;)
Certainly you are wrong. The problem is the difference between, things written on papers (or unwritten things taken as common rules) and the reality in being CiC and the ability to follow CM objectives.
In theory, I agree with skernsk and with things Jordi has said to some points, but in reality things look different and the problem is, that you can only see those dilemmas a CiC has when making orders, when you are in his role or you listen carefully to people who played that role.
And that is the point, why we should listen carefully to people who have been CiC, cause they are the ones who can judge the situation the best. That means automatically, that it's highly recommended to relativate the point of views from people that come from "outside", cause their possibilities to judge the situation are by default limited.
(note: sometimes it is recommended to listen more to people from "outside", but IMO not here)
The said above proves IMO why this is wrong:
You are right, we have a problem with Sunday event, however identical event is running on Friday and is popular and running without any major problems as i believe... so a word from a Friday SOPs CIC is more then worth to read. I'm not sure what was your intention there but imo every vote can be hlepfull.
Supported by suave's conclusion:
More than two objectives per side is too many for 60 participants.
I go even further and would say, that you simply can't adjust a design which works for 200 players by reducing the objectives for 60 players following the directive of 15-20 players per objective.
Reason is, that when you give each side one obejective to defend and one to attack, is boring. IMO you have to assign one side to attack only and one to defend and keep in mind that the attacker needs higher numbers than the defender (bombers/jabo/fighter vs. fighter balancing problem) and also give the defender more objectives.
My personal conclusion is, that there is no elementary difference between Friday and Sunday SO, but there is a difference in numbers, which makes it essential to use different design and not only adjusting existing design, which work for higher numbers.
At this point I recommend to read the last SSO series setup and the comments to it on the forum. ;)
With that knowledge, you will easily see, what I wanted to tell with the above. :)
-
Originally posted by lucull
The said above proves IMO why this is wrong:
:eek:
IMO (and under my and your definition my vote still counts as i was a CIC many times in the past ;) )
what you said above is very wrong. i still welcome your posts here no matter that you are not that expirienced in leading a side of that event as i am ;)
I believe after that sentence you understand what i'm talking about :)
< under your definition of worth, based on expirience in leading a frame my vote should be worth more then yours what is totally wrong and funny >
But once we back to the real problem. Of course Sauve is right that a responsibility about a total look of everything is on the CM side of stuff. CM's are responsible for designing it, assigning roles and so on... however (i'm not talking about this particular frame) as a CM who designd some TOD's in the past i have to say that sometimes CM's CAN NOT controll CIC's orders... believe me - been there, done that... CIC's are late with sending his stuff to CM's or not sending it at all. Sometimes i've asked for it 2-3 times and havn't got a thing.
Of course, a lesson have to be learned from it by a CM regarding this exact person who failed... but everyone with a brain knows whos really guilty there, nometter who we call guilty oficially.
Then IF a CM won't learn his lesson from this, next time he is the only one who's guilty - no question. (that's my opinion anyway.. and believe me i like not may of people who posted here i was on both end of this).
Also i agree that 4 objectives for 60 pilots ( + deffensive objectives ) is too much. I hope the lesson will be learned.
Yes, many pilots don't know how to bomb or divebomb, but then SOps are event that are meant for the squads and squads CAN learn things duting the training meetings. It should be taken into consderation but.... if theu don't knoiw how to divebomb they should practice, not whine about the assigment.
If you are assigned to a buff 2 times in a row - that sucks, but that's the life... if on another 3 frame you are on a buff 2 times you are allowed to whine loud and believe me someone should pay for this ;)
Finally there is a big factor that some of you are not willing to see - people have a different approach here and there. sad but very true.
-
You missunderstand me bike... again.
We are not talking about, if anybody is not welcome to post here (certainly everybody can post in a public forum) or who is, but about the weight of the posters view. Secondly this is about being CiC in a definated situation depending on numbers and orders (4 objectives for 4 players).
There is a difference between being CiC and assigning 15-20 per objective (following skernsk's numbers), reading about CiCs assigning 7-8 people per objective and being the CiC who had/has this dilemma.
Note: you were CM and CiC when Sunday ToD had 100+ players over a year ago. Things have changed meanwhile and therefor your don't count (for me) into the last group. ;)
I think the right eyes of the right people have been opened in this thread. It's not that easy to plan a fun event and as far as I did read this thread, it was never about who should be blamed, but about how to change things to make the event more fun.
If I judge it by this, it was a very productive thread (use of forum, COs placing their complaints, setup design, ...). :)
i still welcome your posts here no matter that you are not that expirienced in leading a side of that event as i am
Please leave the polemic at the front door.
-
Reason is, that when you give each side one obejective to defend and one to attack, is boring.
You just described the Snapshots every week. Not boring to the 50 or so who fly in them every week. ;) Certainly there are significant differences between the events, but if the Sunday Squad Ops only had 2 squads I would set one to defend and one to attack. If the Sunday Squad Ops had 4 squads I would do the same. The inherent design with considerations for numbers and squad sizes works for 80 players or 800 players. Numbers will certainly dictate how many objectives each side has so with more players you will have more objectives.
Most of you know I designed these things. The first three were ran by myself and ghosth as Setup CM about 3 years ago. We had 80 to 100 players each time. Each side had 2 to 3 targets to attack or defend. From there it grew to over 200 so something was working and working well.
The problems Sunday Squad Operations has had over the last couple of years would constitute a long list. Blame can be placed on both players and CM’s. I have had issue with some of the designs and no doubt some Frame C.O.’s have not done their job well, but the SSO is on the road to recovery IMHO. If your a Frame C.O. and not following the steps in this thread
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=96219
your taking a chance of your squad being removed from SSO.
There is a chance I might be moving to Sunday’s as an Admin CM. If that is the case I will run them as I did when I first started the TOD’s/Squad Operations.
-
After reviewing 5 snapshot designs, where always one side attacks and the other defends, I'm sure you misunderstood me. I meant that if every side has to defend and attack one objective, which makes 2 objectives per side, is boring. (also adding for me fromt tactical point of view, now ;)).
If I read you correct, we agree that a certain kind of event design requires a minimum number of players.
Then I would say, that Friday designs (each sides attacking and defending at the same time) can not be scaled down for 60 players, if you follow skernsk's numbers of 15-20 per objective.
If you want a minimum of 15 players per objective and 3 objectives per side (1 attack out of 2 and 2 defend, but only 1 will be attacked; you get what I mean? didn't find the right words), so that every side attacks and defends at the same time, you will need a total numbers of 90 players.
Last but not least, I agree with you, that SSO is on the road to recovery. :)
-
If I read you correct, we agree that a certain kind of event design requires a minimum number of players.
Then I would say, that Friday designs (each sides attacking and defending at the same time) can not be scaled down for 60 players, if you follow skernsk's numbers of 15-20 per objective.
Depending on the write up you could have one side with 2 or 3 targets to defend and none to attack. If you had 2 or 3 targets to defend and attack that would obviously be too much for 80 players.
One of innate problems with numbers this low for Squad Ops is if one or two squads have a low turn out it really can adversely affect the whole event. When you have 200 per week it would not matter so much if 3 or 6 guys did not make it to the event.
-
Originally posted by jordi
To me it seems the EXPERIENCED CIC's from Sunday should be helping out the NEW CIC's.
If a NEW CIC makes a plan that does not seem to "WORK" the experienced CIC's should help out even if it is a "Subtle" Suggestion to the CIC.
You can not just say, as an EXPERIENCED CIC , I will just go with plan no matter how flawed it may be without speaking up either in an email or on the forums.
Just my 2 cents worth at least.
holly words Jordi
you know best how hard is do so many job for AH events as you do.
-
Originally posted by Suave
Admin CM should allways review the CO's plans and OK them before they are sent out. Yes this is micromanagement to an extent, but if a frame sucks even if it was the COs fault, ultimately who's responsibility is it?
More than two objectives per side is too many for 60 participants.
In my experience a lot of sqops players don't know how to bomb, don't want to learn, and generally view being assigned to buffs as a negative thing. Are there any bomber squads that play sqops ?
well i thought admin CM did it
i got spanked couple times for not walking with rules and expectations from admnin cm. Before and after event
At last somone agree sunday should not be by copy of friday.
And no, here is no dedicated bombers squadrons (as far as i know). Somone remember JB squadron who not show up when was assigned to bombers mission?
From my expirience i can say bmbers are not fun for me. Noone of my pilots flying SOPS like to be sitting duck
-
Originally posted by daddog
Depending on the write up you could have one side with 2 or 3 targets to defend and none to attack. If you had 2 or 3 targets to defend and attack that would obviously be too much for 80 players.
One of innate problems with numbers this low for Squad Ops is if one or two squads have a low turn out it really can adversely affect the whole event. When you have 200 per week it would not matter so much if 3 or 6 guys did not make it to the event.
Daddog, here when even half squadron not show up is big problem. Cuz its 1/4 of forces. In this case as CiC i just cancel strike actions.
Since year we have problem with sunday. And still same errors repeat. Good is, problem with setup and time of start was fixed when 2-3 new setup cm's was assigned to sunday. And they did great work so far. SO no more whine about late start of mistakes in setup.
But still is not fixed problem with design of frame.
I hope it will be fix soon, and when (if) we get back to large numbers. Same xhema f design can be used for sunday as for friday. Till we not reach 100, is no way to work with current scheme.
Ah one more about moderate forum, ........... i hope head of cm;s read that
ramzey
-
Originally posted by ramzey
Ah one more about moderate forum, ........... i hope head of cm;s read that
I have access to (and try to read!) all the forums..... Allies & Axis, Friday and Sunday.
-
flossy send me your mail please, i will wrote what im writing about
ramzey
-
flossy@hitechcreations.com :)