Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: miko2d on December 10, 2003, 08:45:19 AM
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Bush restores trade balance with China... by selling them Taiwan.
Taiwan must be worth a fortune in consumer goods and loans to keep our welfare state running.
Bush raps Taiwan over referendum as he meets China's premier (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/americas/view/61366/1/.html)
Mr Bush said: "We oppose any unilateral decision by either China or Taiwan to change the status quo, and the comments and actions made by the leader of Taiwan indicate that he may be willing to make decisions unilaterally, to change the status quo, which we oppose."
Bush pushes Taiwan to cancel referendum (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001811649_china10.html)
President Bush, emerging from a White House meeting with Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao, warned Taiwan yesterday in unusually blunt terms to drop its plans for a voter referendum that China views as a step toward the island proclaiming its independence.
Remember, when I said few days ago:Net foreign investment fell to $4.2 Billion in September... In August, the figure stood at $49 billion... And in July, it stood at $73 billion.
The foreign investment in U.S. Treasuries fell to $5 billion in September from August's $25 billion. The average monthly figure for the last 12 months as been around $40 billion. Any way you cut this data, it all says the same thing - the U.S. is finding it difficult to finance their Current Account Deficit
I guess that's the way we go about fixing the problem.
I wonder why nobody cared to comment on that over the last two days. Oh wait - here is the search results:
Yeager: Bush is finally begining to talk and act like a seasoned president. Per remarks made today with China about Taiwan.
Yes, he certainly does sound like a seasoned scoundrel and tyrant - selling allies to the communists, denying people the right to self-determination and democracy through referendum, insisting on the opressor's consent to free the opressed. Whatever necessary to keep chinese happy and buying US treasury bonds.
What do you think about Hitler and Chechoslovakia, Yeager? Of course, I know you approve. Thank God we did not have some "spoiled immature brat from vermont without nary a clue" who could have gotten all upset and confronted Hitler over that annexation.
miko
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But...but Freedom, Democracy they were in his speech?! :eek:
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You are like a broken record.
You can use the same Subject heading for all of your post.
"Here is another reason to hate America!"
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Wonder how the "Pucker Factor" is in Taiwan nowadays.... :D
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I'm sure Dean is for a "Free Taiwan" .. be sure to vote for him
LOL
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Originally posted by Mighty1
You are like a broken record.
You can use the same Subject heading for all of your post.
"Here is another reason to hate America!"
Mighty... dont be so simplistic... He said not one word negative about America.......... Only its governing policies.. 8)
k
AoM
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Originally posted by Eagler
I'm sure Dean is for a "Free Taiwan" .. be sure to vote for him
LOL
No, it has nothing to do with Dean and everything to do with to do with Bush selling out a country that wants to be free and democratic. It's blatant hypocracy. Or do you think that Bush should have sold them out?
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PuH-leeze!
Almost every one of his posts are negative towards the US.
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Mighty1: You are like a broken record.
You can use the same Subject heading for all of your post.
"Here is another reason to hate America!"
That's what they teach you in the Bushjugend? That "America" and the Republicrat US Government are the same thing? Better go practice your goose-stepping, you brainwashed dolt.
Which America do you love? That of the Founding Fathers? The one of Lincoln? The one of 1912? 1920? 1933? 1950? 1970? Today's? The one of ten years from now? How come every previous america was utterly destroyed while people claimed they loved it just like it was?
You would support all injustice and hyppocricy the US federal government does and falsely claim that it represents the views of whole "america"? Some favor you are doing to your country and it's people.
What do you personally think of self-determination and democracy, Mighty? Do you think those are (a) unconditionally good, (b) unconditionally bad or (c) may depend how much money the US government may get for either to finance the welfare state?
Probably (d) - having one's own opinion is un-american, let's wait what the president says and repeat it.
miko
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Originally posted by Mighty1
PuH-leeze!
Almost every one of his posts are negative towards the US.
No they aren't. They are negative towards some US government policies.
Or do believe that the party is the people?
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My opinion on this matter is that we are already stretched thin military wise and if a taiwanese war breaks out we will be stretched even thinner.. Lets not forget North Korea either..
He made the best choice for america, then again he dug the hole we are in anyway so im not praising him... Its lose lose situation.. and with our current deficit get used to the morals that this country was formed upon to take a ride on the backburner... I dont think the majority of the public understands economics very well and hence the uproar has been contained to a few uncompromising liberals (Krugman).. heh.. But these deficits cant continue is my opinion..
Unless we start to reap the rewards of Iraq soon I really think our economy will be uneasy for a while...
I think by next summer we will have a good handle on where our economy is going.. I think alot of strength we are seeing at the moment is the seasonal lift that happens every year around the holidays, but then again its only my opinion...
2 cents
DoctorYo
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First of all, without the US Taiwan would be another province of communist China. Secondly, if the US sold out Taiwan, it was 30 years ago when we adapted the 'one-China' policy. This is just a continuation of that policy.
Our policy is that Taiwan is part of China, but that the mainland cannot reclaim the island without the consent of the Taiwanese people. The current referendum is just an election-year ploy for Taiwan's president.
That said, Taiwan's years are numbered. Mainland nationalism is very strong and Taiwan's separation is becoming a source of humiliation. As China becomes richer and more powerful the people of the mainland will demand that Taiwan be reclaimed whether the people of Taiwan want it or not.
ra
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Originally posted by miko2d
Remember, when I said few days ago:
..the U.S. is finding it difficult to finance their Current Account Deficit.
Remember when I said 3 months ago:
There will come a time when the US budget problem will get so large, that we will be unable to sell our debt to generate financing. That's when we will all be screwed.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94897
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Obviously Bush forgot to bone up on his Tom Clancy foreign policy mission statement.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
No they aren't. They are negative towards some US government policies.
Or do believe that the party is the people?
the elected party represents the people...therefore a bash to the party is a bash to the people...
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Originally posted by ra
First of all, without the US Taiwan would be another province of communist China. Secondly, if the US sold out Taiwan, it was 30 years ago when we adapted the 'one-China' policy. This is just a continuation of that policy.
Our policy is that Taiwan is part of China, but that the mainland cannot reclaim the island without the consent of the Taiwanese people. The current referendum is just an election-year ploy for Taiwan's president.
That said, Taiwan's years are numbered. Mainland nationalism is very strong and Taiwan's separation is becoming a source of humiliation. As China becomes richer and more powerful the people of the mainland will demand that Taiwan be reclaimed whether the people of Taiwan want it or not.
ra
But...but... I thought Bush's stated objective is to spread American-style democracy throughout the World... and Taiwan has had de facto indipendance since the 40s... and has a Democratically elected Government modeled after our own...
Somebody please listen to Rush Limbaugh and tell me what to think.
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the elected party represents the people...therefore a bash to the party is a bash to the people...
My my, the Canadians are condescending today, aren't they?
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Originally posted by vorticon
the elected party represents the people...therefore a bash to the party is a bash to the people...
I take it as a horrible offence.
You mean that the bastards that were elected by brainwashed majority last Sunday represent ME!? If they do - I refuse to be a part of this people.
Damn. I start to really hate this democracy.
Does anyone here that a stinking bum collecting empty bottles from trash-cans should participate in making decisions that affect your life?!?!?
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well its a bash to at least 51% of the population...if you didnt vote or voted for the other party your obviously not getting bashed
Does anyone here that a stinking bum collecting empty bottles from trash-cans should participate in making decisions that affect your life?!?!?
i beleive you need a fixed address to vote...wich means bums dont get to vote...
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vorticon: the elected party represents the people...therefore a bash to the party is a bash to the people...
Few technical corrections. "the party" is not elected, a person is. And he does not represent "the people", just the majority. And does not really "represent" but serves.
Not that that I would shy away from bashing "the people" when they deserve it but in this particular case your slander of us is totally undeserved.
Do you really think that american people - especially the rebublican almost-half of them (communism=Empire of Evil types) who voted for rebublicans in 2000 would have preferred to support expansionist communist China against democratic capitalist Taiwan if asked then - or even now?
Did chinese institute personal liberties? Allowed gun ownership? Private enterprise? Free Trrade? Abandoned practices of forced abotion? Allowed free speech? Stopped aresting and torturing political opponents? Selling prisoners for body parts? Allowed real elections?
Do you think it is a treason for anyone, regardless of the party, not to vote for re-election of the president in his second-term - since he was obviously elected and thus must be the best choice?
Is that a treason to campaign for a different candidate? To criticise the government? To remember what Founding Fathers said about watching one's own government lest it turn tyranical?
Is it a treason to think at all?
Many americans surely think so, if that process can be called "thinking", the traitors.
Boroda: Damn. I start to really hate this democracy.
Boroda, you are so ignorant. You are just starting to hate "democracy" - and probably not understanding why, just feeling the consequences.
If there is one book you read in your life, get and read "Democracy - The God That Failed" by Hans-Hermann Hoppe. Brilliant treatise on the nature of democratic government.
You will stop groping in the dark.
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
Boroda, you are so ignorant. You are just starting to hate "democracy" - and probably not understanding why, just feeling the consequences.
If there is one book you read in your life, get and read "Democracy - The God That Failed" by Hans-Hermann Hoppe. Brilliant treatise on the nature of democratic government.
You will stop groping in the dark.
Sorry, Miko. I must have heard of this book. It's hard to check my sources, is it the one where it is explained why real "democracy" never leads to sane and reasonable decisions, and it is proven by mathematical calculations?
You see, here I am limited by my lingual abilities and failure to translate some concepts. So I try to express myself as well as I can.
As for "feeling the consequences" - I doubt that under Soviet version of "democracy" I could live better. Maybe I could feel more secure, but in fact I am doing quite well, and I could do even better if I wasn't such patologicaly lazy.
With my natural-science education I can only say that so-called "democracy" is nothing but a curtain for the blind populus, hiding real interests and forces with propaganda. With contemporary media technologies it's possible to make people vote for the party that suggests physical eliminations of everyone who votes for it.
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Sorry, I didn't see that you didn't realize that I wrote that I hate this democracy.
Here is an election thread (http://forum.wbfree.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18944) at our Forum. It's in Russian.
Ебал я в рот такую демократию. 90% придурков не могут объяснить почему они голосовали за дядюшку Пу. "Едроссов герб отмечен знаком, на нём - медведь стоящий раком". :(
Нас ебут - а мы крепчаем.
Что они скажут когда Пу грохнут и устроят очередную войнушку, попутно повыселив неплательщиков из приватизированных квартир... А к тому идёт, я имею в виду выселение. Боюсь что будет покруче чем в Пиндустане в 29-33гг. В стране имеется сто миллионов лишних людей, и надо что-то делать. :mad:
Я отказываюсь быть членом такого человечества.
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Boroda: I didn't see that you didn't realize that I wrote that I hate this democracy.
I did. That's why I called you ingorant and suggested reading that book - which is now available in german as well.
It's not this or that democracy that is bound to end in collapse to barbarism or tyrany. It's this kind of democracy. Read the book, you will not be sorry.
I think we are talking about the same one, though it does not have mathematical calculations but logical proofs.
And the nature of the populaos is not the issue. Ignorant people were not a problem or detriment to growth in free societies.
At the same time socialism is theoretically impossible even when every voter is a smart, educated and honest.
Economic decay of socialist society is assured by impossibility of economic calculation in the abcense of pribvate property.
Political and social desintegration is caused by high time preference of democratic (publicly-owned) government compared to alternatives.
You are lashing at the wrong causes. Read the book, seriously.
miko
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My German is even worse then my English, only "Йа, йа, фольксвагенштангенциркуль! Дас ист фантастишь!"....
:D
I will read it when I'll see Russian translation. I have read the summary in "CompuTerra" weekly.
I am simply too frustrated by this electional crap now :(
Please, beware, by doubting the allmighty "democracy" you can easily become a "persona non grata"... Seriously. Each time you don't post for a day or two I am afraid they have come for you. I know I am paranoid ;)
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I think majority really needs to be redefined.
I say make it 75% to be a majority.. because 51% still seems pretty darn close to Half..
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Boroda: Please, beware, by doubting the allmighty "democracy" you can easily become a "persona non grata"... Seriously. Each time you don't post for a day or two I am afraid they have come for you. I know I am paranoid ;)
You have to understand the metods used to build socialism here are very different than those used by bolshevics in 1917.
Russians were forced in kicking and screaming.
American way is slower but much more assured. They do not have to arrest me. I am not saying anything that was not popular and commonly accepted 100 years ago. They just have to keep doing what they always did - ignoring my vote (with 5-10% of the country being libertarian, what representation in Congress do we have? Right, 0%. Well, one guy is libertarian - Ron Paul, (R) Texas.)
It's all described in the book. The majority of tax receivers has voting power over the minority of tax-payers like me. Jailing us would be generally counter-productive - better exploit us and strengthen their power even more with our extorted taxes.
Of course there is always a chance some government bureacrat will need me to fill his arrest quota, like they do with "child molesters", etc...
miko
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Originally posted by AWMac
Wonder how the "Pucker Factor" is in Taiwan nowadays.... :D
Pretty high because for the last month China has been deploying additional troops in to the region under the pretext of conducting military exercises.
If the Taiwan referendum goes through... China will invade... best estimates... China won't wait even a day... in any case, China can pick and choose the time.
The majority of the fighting will be over in 14 hours.
The US won't get involved militarily - there will be condemnation of the act... but US will not vote for sanctions at the U.N.
Mainland China will win this conflict, the future of US relations hinges on the US being on the mainland's side - it has no choice.
Prices for electronic goods will sky rocket, tech stocks will blip... hard to say what the economic represcussions will be.
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taiwan has nukes.
this is a pointless discussion.
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DmdNexus: If the Taiwan referendum goes through... China will invade... best estimates... China won't wait even a day... in any case, China can pick and choose the time.
The majority of the fighting will be over in 14 hours.
Last time China invaded Vietnam - in 1979 - it got it's bellybutton handed over to it on a platter. I would not bet on China.
The specifics of chinese infrastructure (most importantly dams) and population distribution are such that a few well-placed missiles can insure death from starvation of a hundred million Chinese.
China would have hard time defeating taiwan in out-and-out war. Taiwan could sink an invasion fleet by antiship missles. Missles are cheap, plentifull and effective. The ships cannot dodge. How many of them would one need to transport a few hundrd thousand troops?
I doubt Taiwan has nukes but who knows? Thay can certainly have dirty bombs, bio and chem weapons and threaten to use them in case of invasion.
If chinese could, would have invaded long time ago and US would have been impotent to interfere.
US military knows very well that chinese could get rid of our fleets, planes and submarines in the region by conventional weapons or underwater nukes. Would US governement initiate nuclear exchange because of Taiwan? Never.
So even with out permission they cannot defeat Taiwan militarily without losing a major chunk of China itself. They actually need our cooperation to get Taiwan without bloodshed - and are buying our cooperation.
US had economic handle on China, not military one, now the table are being turned.
miko
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The majority of the fighting will be over in 14 hours.
Invading Taiwan wouldn't be that easy, there's the small matter of transporting the People's Army 100 miles across the sea. In an age of cruise missiles and spy satellites, that isn't easy. But China will reclaim Taiwan soon enough. The Taiwanese better hope the Chinese government has morphed into something less dictatorial by then.
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
taiwan has nukes.
this is a pointless discussion.
We'll see.
The one thing about China, they do what they say they will do.
They rolled into Tibet, when Tibet resisted Beijings rule.
Taiwan's nuclear capability is not a deterrant. They won't have time to press the launch button.
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Almost every one of his posts are negative towards the US.
Please show me one thread Miko has started that was positive about the USA.
Mighty... dont be so simplistic... He said not one word negative about America.......... Only its governing policies.. 8)
America is the sum of it's whole, and part of what America is is it's governing policies.
That's what they teach you in the Bushjugend? That "America" and the Republicrat US Government are the same thing?
Yes, America is the Republican Party, and it is the Democratic Party, and all the rest combined.
There will come a time when the US budget problem will get so large, that we will be unable to sell our debt to generate financing. That's when we will all be screwed.
Very original, people have been complaining about the budget and the upcoming financial turmoil forever, and guess what, we are still here, still financially sound, and the economy is improving.
Of course, the world was going to end at the end of the last century (what happened to the Rapture?), the Y2K situation was going to be our apocalypse, AIDS would kill us all by 1999, etc etc etc.
Just blow some more nonsense out your butt Chicken Little.
dago
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our goverment is basicly sick with tumors .... see cancer consists of cells that no longer produce thier intended function, and instead feed off the body, often produceing more cancer ......our goverment looks like the elephant man.... full of useless tumors that play at being functioning organs, disfigureing our once proud form...
But anyway this biggness is why you critize the US govement .... it has nothing to do with the people..... we vote, but the media has the power as it is now.....
States rights!:aok
Downsize the FED!
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"Please show me one thread Miko has started that was positive about the USA.'
Can you point out one post of his that isn't based on actual facts, although your replies with "leave the country" only make you look like an ignorant patriotic fool, but then again it's your right as is his in a democracy.
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Yes, America is the Republican Party, and it is the Democratic Party, and all the rest combined.
Why can't America be defined by just us, its people?
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miko has forgotten more about American civics than most of you will ever know- Out of all his posts I've read I've never interpeted one to be anti-American, but rather pro-Constitution.
The fact some of you respond with a Post telling him to leave the country or STFU only shows your own lack of understanding of what America stands for.
:rolleyes:
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I may hate Bush, or his policies, but our Government system is the best yet devised by man. Perfect? Hardly.... but still the best.
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I see the sky is still falling.
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BS.
The US policy towards China and Taiwan is not something Bush thought up last week. You want to complain? Talk to FDR and Truman. No one would listen to Stilwell and backed Chaing, who was a crooked and hated as they come. When Chaing lost China to Mao, they went to Taiwan and the deal was made. The US kept China out of Tailwan, and Taiwan never damaged the pride of China by delcaring independence. The US didn't even ***** when Taiwan was kept out of the UN. The intervening years, Taiwan has become (at times) a commerical powerhouse and been a democratic nation. And our presence and protection has kept the status quo intact.
And do you want Bush squaring off against the Chinese right now? Thanks to the downsizing of the military, we do not have the availible troops to even think about screwing around there. China would roll both us and Taiwan in a conventional war and that would led us to either admitting defeat and trying to get as many Taiwanese onto boats (if China would let us do it) or going nuclear.
Discretion is the better part of valor. And to expect different is short-sighted and nothing more than looking for a reason to ***** about Booosh.
And AH, Miko does know alot about civics. And is very good at quoting. However, that ability does not change the fact that 9 times out of 10 he is using that knowledge to complain bitterly about the current state of the country and that it is not as he feels it should be. His knowledge means that (just like everyone else) he is right about some things and wrong about others. While he may have a point about certain economy matters, (I don't know, I'm not an economist and am not going to look it up to argue with him) his desires for America's legal system are so far out there they border on dangerous for our country.
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Originally posted by Dune
his desires for America's legal system are so far out there they border on dangerous for our country.
That is an understatement. I agree on alot of his economic points, although I feel economics is fuzzy math at times.
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Originally posted by Airhead
The fact some of you respond with a Post telling him to leave the country or STFU only shows your own lack of understanding of what America stands for.
:rolleyes:
Nah. I think it shows tiring of seeing him start 3 threads a day whining. Could you show me what this whining thread has to do with the constitution?
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"Could you show me what this whining thread has to do with the constitution?"
Sure. Our announced purpose is to expand Democracy, as based upon our form of Government, throught the World- yet when the rubber hits the road we size up what suits us best as economic partners, not what form of Government they have.
Easy, really.
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Originally posted by Airhead
"Could you show me what this whining thread has to do with the constitution?"
Sure. Our announced purpose is to expand Democracy, as based upon our form of Government, throught the World- yet when the rubber hits the road we size up what suits us best as economic partners, not what form of Government they have.
Easy, really.
I still don't get it. So we shouldn't trade with China because they are communist? We should free their enslaved people instead?
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Because if we're not going to trade with China because they're Commie, does that mean we've been doing the right thing in regards to Cuba all this time?
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Originally posted by Dune
Because if we're not going to trade with China because they're Commie, does that mean we've been doing the right thing in regards to Cuba all this time?
I'm just having trouble finding where the constitution says no trading with commies.
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Hey, it's GWB's policy, not mine. We now invade foreign nations based solely upon their form of Government. If we are truly trying to spread Democracy around the world then why did GWB grant China "most favored nation" trading status? You'd think at the very least he'd denounce their leadership and push for an economic boycott of em instead.
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Taiwan could force our hand (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=3&u=/nm/20031210/ts_nm/taiwan_dc)
makes you wonder how many "get outa Iraq" lefties would be screaming for us to protect the island junk maker from the big bad land based one ...
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Originally posted by Dune
Because if we're not going to trade with China because they're Commie, does that mean we've been doing the right thing in regards to Cuba all this time?
I don't know... do you think we're doing the right thing in Iraq?
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Originally posted by Airhead
I don't know... do you think we're doing the right thing in Iraq?
I do. I don't see what that has to do with China, Cuba, or the constitution either, though.
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Originally posted by miko2d
vorticon: the elected party represents the people...therefore a bash to the party is a bash to the people...
Few technical corrections. "the party" is not elected, a person is. And he does not represent "the people", just the majority. And does not really "represent" but serves.
Not that that I would shy away from bashing "the people" when they deserve it but in this particular case your slander of us is totally undeserved.
Do you really think that american people - especially the rebublican almost-half of them (communism=Empire of Evil types) who voted for rebublicans in 2000 would have preferred to support expansionist communist China against democratic capitalist Taiwan if asked then - or even now?
Did chinese institute personal liberties? Allowed gun ownership? Private enterprise? Free Trrade? Abandoned practices of forced abotion? Allowed free speech? Stopped aresting and torturing political opponents? Selling prisoners for body parts? Allowed real elections?
Do you think it is a treason for anyone, regardless of the party, not to vote for re-election of the president in his second-term - since he was obviously elected and thus must be the best choice?
Is that a treason to campaign for a different candidate? To criticise the government? To remember what Founding Fathers said about watching one's own government lest it turn tyranical?
Is it a treason to think at all?
Many americans surely think so, if that process can be called "thinking", the traitors.
miko
1. sorry...things are different here in canada...of course that 1 person represents the government (or the official opposition) wich represents the people...
2. wow...you pulled all that from a statement about how the government works...you take reading between the lines to a whole new level...how is it slander to point out that the government represents the majority of the population and therefore a bash to them is a bash to that majority...i never said or implied ANY of that...and if you think i did then i suggest you find a shrink
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The one thing about miko2d is he actually debates a point with coherent arguments.
The one thing about his detractors is that they can rarely do the same.
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
taiwan has nukes.
Not according to the FAS (http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/taiwan/nuke/). And if they have, they apear not to be using them the way they're supposed to be - ie you have to test one to prove to the world you a) have nukes and b) they work. Most importantly, the whole point is to tell everyone you have them - otherwise they are not a deterrent, and therefore expensive & useless.
China probably doesn't need to bomb Taiwan to enforce the one China policy - they can make an independent Taiwan uncomfortable enough to rethink their independence using economic means. Eg: which country's trade would Corporation X value more if they could only choose one? China or Taiwan? To couch it in US terms: which would you rather be able to sell to/buy from? Rhode Island or the whole of the rest of the US?
That's not to say that China wouldn't use force. But it bears remembering so far the PRC have left Hong Kong alone - and indeed under the evil communist rule, HK has become much more democratic than it ever could have under the UK's colonial regime and has been voted the world's freest economy every year since they took over. Keeping Taiwan's fledgling democracy intact would therefore not be beyond the PRC's capabilities.
Although I suspect the PRC's party heads may take a dim view of all the ridiculous and embarrassing hand-to-hand combat that passes for debate in Taiwan's parliament. ;)
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vorticon: ...how is it slander to point out that the government represents the majority of the population...
You implied that the president's action represents our opinion - meaning that the population in US desires to sell the free democratic republic of Taiwan to the communist China.
That is slander on us, americans. Our government may be doing such atrocios things because we are dumb and uninformed and easily fooled but not because we want them to.
I may have supported the return of "breakaway iraqi province" of Kuwait oppressed by the totalitarian religious monarchy to the secular socialist Iraq who had been our long-time ally in a war against religious fundamentalism in the Middle East. But selling a democracy to the communists? Have to draw a line somewhere.
Taiwan's democratically elected president, Chen Shui-bian, has been hinting that maybe his people should make a democratic choice about whether to unite with China or become independent. Beijing's Communist dictators have replied with bellicose threats to settle the matter by force, no matter the price. Yesterday President Bush essentially placed the United States on the side of the dictators who promise war, rather than the democrats whose threat is a ballot box.
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
vorticon: ...how is it slander to point out that the government represents the majority of the population...
You implied that the president's action represents our opinion - meaning that the population in US desires to sell the free democratic republic of Taiwan to the communist China.
That is slander on us, americans. Our government may be doing such atrocios things because we are dumb and uninformed and easily fooled but not because we want them to.
I may have supported the return of "breakaway iraqi province" of Kuwait oppressed by the totalitarian religious monarchy to the secular socialist Iraq who had been our long-time ally in a war against religious fundamentalism in the Middle East. But selling a democracy to the communists? Have to draw a line somewhere.
miko
Thankfully, miko has sources on the inside to give him a clear point of view. It's the rest of the country that's screwed up.
Or is it?
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We own Taiwan?
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Sixpence: We own Taiwan?
Reminds me of a russian proverb.
Can you buy an honest man? No, but you can sell him.
miko
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Does this mean I can sell California?
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Sixpence: Does this mean I can sell California?
I though it has already been sold to Vincente Fox.
It's not the question of what you can sell but what you can steal first.
You have to be a politician to sell out America to foreign governments and special domestic interests - because first you steal it from the rightfull owners.
miko
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I think it's funny that so many companies are putting so much effort into the slim opportunity to be future players in the vast and largely untapped market of China some day. "If we establish a presence now, we'll be set when..."
The potential is there, clearly, but if you talk to some of the people managing aspects of these joint ventures they'll tell you that it really seems to be a one way street for the most part. There is no idea when any kind of true open market will exist (certainly not in the near future), and the controls still keep the Chinese partner firmly in control (at least where petroleum is concerned). You've got to wonder if it's really worth the effort, and if we aren't just educating the Chinese to become fiercer economic competitors in the future at our expense.
Charon
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Originally posted by Charon
I think it's funny that so many companies are putting so much effort into the slim opportunity to be future players in the vast and largely untapped market of China some day. "If we establish a presence now, we'll be set when..."
Good point... When it does happen though, I'd bet that american enterprise in china will be worth little more than the avg. Chinesse all you can eat buffet here in america...
k
AoM
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Originally posted by Martlet
Thankfully, miko has sources on the inside to give him a clear point of view. It's the rest of the country that's screwed up.
Or is it?
Understand the difference Martlet... Miko HAS a point of view with good post and good topics... You on the other hand, at best, have nothing but ignorant sentences poorly thrown together. Every post you make, it seems, have no other purpose than the attempt to tear someone or someone's ideas down if they dont agree with your self-rightous POV.
Consider this an attack if you must.. I dont mean it to be.. So, I wish you wouldnt.. Instead, I'd rather you take the 'idea' of my post to heart and perhaps one day you could post with a small measure of integrity that others might respect.. 8)
k
AoM
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Originally posted by kappa
Understand the difference Martlet... Miko HAS a point of view with good post and good topics... You on the other hand, at best, have nothing but ignorant sentences poorly thrown together. Every post you make, it seems, have no other purpose than the attempt to tear someone or someone's ideas down if they dont agree with your self-rightous POV.
Consider this an attack if you must.. I dont mean it to be.. So, I wish you wouldnt.. Instead, I'd rather you take the 'idea' of my post to heart and perhaps one day you could post with a small measure of integrity that others might respect.. 8)
k
AoM
Every time I differ with someone, I give them the benefit of the doubt. I back up my claims with examples. Once they get backed into a corner (as happens so often to liberals) that they start posting nonsense instead of admitting they were wrong, then they get no respect from me. Why would I discuss something with you kappa, when you can't back up your argument. When instead you toss out the "I'd explain it to you, but you're too stupid to understand. Go find the info yourself".
It's a waste of my time and yours. From the point you last did that, I have felt I owe you no answers. I just prefer to laugh, since we both know you have no argument. You're just riding the "GOP sucks" train, and you don't care who's driving.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Every time I differ with someone, I give them the benefit of the doubt. I back up my claims with examples. Once they get backed into a corner (as happens so often to liberals) that they start posting nonsense instead of admitting they were wrong, then they get no respect from me. Why would I discuss something with you kappa, when you can't back up your argument. When instead you toss out the "I'd explain it to you, but you're too stupid to understand. Go find the info yourself".
It's a waste of my time and yours. From the point you last did that, I have felt I owe you no answers. I just prefer to laugh, since we both know you have no argument. You're just riding the "GOP sucks" train, and you don't care who's driving.
Thats just it Martlet.. I've never seen you make a valid point.. And i have never called you stupid and told you to find the info yourself.... I can only remember arguing with you on one occansion.. You were ina round about way trying to make it appear our president was not looking for WMDs in Iraqi.. That he had not said Iraqi had WMD in his SotU speech.. thats it.. I said our president lied in his SotU speech about Iraqi being 'clear and present danger to america'..... you screamed sources?? Do you really choose to live in such a hole?? You worry more about being victor of the post than you read them.... Hence, i suppose your right.. its futile...
k
AoM
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Originally posted by kappa
Thats just it Martlet.. I've never seen you make a valid point.. And i have never called you stupid and told you to find the info yourself.... I can only remember arguing with you on one occansion.. You were ina round about way trying to make it appear our president was not looking for WMDs in Iraqi.. That he had not said Iraqi had WMD in his SotU speech.. thats it.. I said our president lied in his SotU speech about Iraqi being 'clear and present danger to america'..... you screamed sources?? Do you really choose to live in such a hole?? You worry more about being victor of the post than you read them.... Hence, i suppose your right.. its futile...
k
AoM
Actually, you made a claim that our President specifically lied to us in the SotU. You specifically said he claimed Iraq had WMD. I said show me, since you were full of crap.
Then, you did exactly what I just said you did. You even went so far to say "prove he never said it".
So yes, I am right. You have no facts to back up your claims. You stamp your feet and spin when that is pointed out. We both know you don't know what you are talking about. I have laughed and poked fun when I've seen you post from that point on.
That's why you've chosen to be the peanut gallery for miko now. You don't have to prove your points. You can just agree with miko.
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Originally posted by ra
Invading Taiwan wouldn't be that easy, there's the small matter of transporting the People's Army 100 miles across the sea. In an age of cruise missiles and spy satellites, that isn't easy. But China will reclaim Taiwan soon enough. The Taiwanese better hope the Chinese government has morphed into something less dictatorial by then.
100 miles is nothing.... not even 10 minutes in supersonice jet.
In the first hour, China will start the attack with missles and fighter bombers from near by naval ships performing "exercises" - this will destroy Taiwans ability to see and counter attack invading forces. This strike will obliterate Taiwan's Military command and control.
In the second and third hours, paratroops will land to sieze strategic defenses and cause confusion.
The bulk of the invasion force will land on the fourth hour.
It will be over in 14 hours.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Actually, you made a claim that our President specifically lied to us in the SotU. You specifically said he claimed Iraq had WMD. I said show me, since you were full of crap.
Then, you did exactly what I just said you did. You even went so far to say "prove he never said it".
So yes, I am right. You have no facts to back up your claims. You stamp your feet and spin when that is pointed out. We both know you don't know what you are talking about. I have laughed and poked fun when I've seen you post from that point on.
That's why you've chosen to be the peanut gallery for miko now. You don't have to prove your points. You can just agree with miko.
thats right martlet.. keep that head in your hole..
the prove he never said it remark was plainly posted as a joke b/c you were being such a ungiving fool..... as now....
Your more worried about typing that I cant back up my claims than you are actually thinking about what im claiming.. so, continue to laugh, we all understand ignorance is bliss... we all need to be happy somehow.. and I'll finish this for you..
YOUR RIGHT.. IM WRONG>...... YOU WIN.. I LOSE.............
k
AoM
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
100 miles is nothing.... not even 10 minutes in supersonice jet.
In the first hour, China will start the attack with missles and fighter bombers from near by naval ships performing "exercises" - this will destroy Taiwans ability to see and counter attack invading forces. This strike will obliterate Taiwan's Military command and control.
In the second and third hours, paratroops will land to sieze strategic defenses and cause confusion.
The bulk of the invasion force will land on the fourth hour.
It will be over in 14 hours.
What about the museum?
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Originally posted by miko2d
Sixpence: Does this mean I can sell California?
I though it has already been sold to Vincente Fox.
It's not the question of what you can sell but what you can steal first.
You have to be a politician to sell out America to foreign governments and special domestic interests - because first you steal it from the rightfull owners.
miko
Ahh, so I have to steal California first. Piece of cake, if arnold can do it.......
Seriously, it is obvious that a deal has been struck. Remember, it was Bush who said he would defend Tawain. So what happened in the meantime? Listen, I don't live in Taiwan, I live in the United States. I don't see GW doing anything that isn't in our best interest. Honestly, if it comes down to what is best for Taiwan or what is best for the United States, well, that's a no brainer.
If Taiwan is part of China, I don't see what we can do anyway. I also believe that China will not be communists in 20 years. I think China will become more like Taiwan. Just my opinion.
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Originally posted by Martlet
You specifically said he claimed Iraq had WMD. I said show me, since you were full of crap.
Then, you did exactly what I just said you did. You even went so far to say "prove he never said it".
So yes, I am right. You have no facts to back up your claims. You stamp your feet and spin when that is pointed out. We both know you don't know what you are talking about. I have laughed and poked fun when I've seen you post from that point on.
Gee Marlet you're full of crap as usual... and it looks like you don't know what you're talking about!
Here's a little of what Bush said about Iraq in his SOTUA:
"He pursued chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, even while inspectors were in his country"
"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent. In such quantities, these chemical agents could also kill untold thousands. "
"Year after year, Saddam Hussein has gone to elaborate lengths, spent enormous sums, taken great risks to build and keep weapons of mass destruction"
Last I recall, Nuclear weapons, sarin, mustard, and VX nerve
agent are WMD.
Want to know where I got that quote?
How about from the source... the whitehouse.... or are they just another liberal left wing OpEd sprewing website?
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030128-19.html
Ok... there's your proof Bush said Iraq had WMD...
Where are they?
Are you hiding them in your turds again, Marlet?
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
Gee Marlet you're full of crap as usual... and it looks like you don't know what you're talking about!
Here's a little of what Bush said about Iraq in his SOTUA:
"He pursued chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, even while inspectors were in his country"
"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent. In such quantities, these chemical agents could also kill untold thousands. "
"Year after year, Saddam Hussein has gone to elaborate lengths, spent enormous sums, taken great risks to build and keep weapons of mass destruction"
Last I recall, Nuclear weapons, sarin, mustard, and VX nerve
agent are WMD.
Want to know where I got that quote?
How about from the source... the whitehouse.... or are they just another liberal left wing OpEd sprewing website?
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030128-19.html
Ok... there's your proof Bush said Iraq had WMD...
Where are they?
Are you hiding them in your turds again, Marlet?
Actually, I'm laughing at you. You aren't even close to being on target with the original discussion. How about you go look it up, get on the same page as the rest of us, then come back and post again once you've been informed.
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AoM
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Kappa, I have to issue you a stern rebuke about what kind of dregs you bring into my threads and encourage to communicate here - and get provoked yourself.
It is of course your business if you want to fraternize with unsavory creeps - you will certainly see no proft there, but what the heck - could you just please do it somewhere else?
And yes - I have him on ignore but how does it help if you keep quoting his nonsensical crap?
miko
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Originally posted by Martlet
Actually, I'm laughing at you. You aren't even close to being on target with the original discussion. How about you go look it up, get on the same page as the rest of us, then come back and post again once you've been informed.
I don't care about the original discussion.
Every thing you say is full of crapola!
You've been tooled by the master tooler and hamster buggerer Georgie Bundy Walking Bushbanana just like the other neo-cons on this board.
You even wear his face... now if that's not a tool... what is!
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Originally posted by miko2d
Kappa, I have to issue you a stern rebuke about what kind of dregs you bring into my threads and encourage to communicate here - and get provoked yourself.
It is of course your business if you want to fraternize with unsavory creeps - you will certainly see no proft there, but what the heck - could you just please do it somewhere else?
And yes - I have him on ignore but how does it help if you keep quoting his nonsensical crap?
miko
lol miko.. didnt think of it that way.. sorry bro.. Im done..
k
AoM
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Dmd, please see my post to Kappa.
Why the heck are you posting the Bush's quote that Sadam Hussein "kept the weapons of mass destruction"? Every righteous republican saw that State of the Union address personally and probably has it taped to review weekly.
Everybody knows Bush said that. So what?
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
Dmd, please see my post to Kappa.
Why the heck are you posting the Bush's quote that Sadam Hussein "kept the weapons of mass destruction"? Every righteous republican saw that State of the Union address personally and probably has it taped to review weekly.
Everybody knows Bush said that. So what?
miko
Sorry... Marlet's Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease has left holes in his brain - he couldn't remember what Bush said.
Which seems to be a pattern with the right wing on this board.
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
Sorry... Marlet's Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease has left holes in his brain - he couldn't remember what Bush said.
Which seems to be a pattern with the right wing on this board.
You obviously can't read.