Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: slimm50 on December 10, 2003, 10:59:31 AM
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I'm just curious...is there ANYONE out there who, upon encountering an enemy fighter, tries to do somehting other than face-shoot as a first reaction. I think after the first merge pretty much anything goes. But for the first pass, or merge, so many in the MA lack imagination, or skill, I'm not sure which it is. Maybe they're just too impatient. Last night (Tuesday) I noticed most cons I engaged went for the face shot immediately. I don't want to sound maudlin, but I remember a time when it was sort of an unspoken rule that the first pass, if head-on, was a no firing pass. Pilots concentrated on the art of the merge rather than coming in with cannons blazing, trying to obliterate anything in their path. Remember that? The art of merging? The dance? Are these guys so afraid of me that their fingers are frozen on the trigger in abject horror that they might have to tangle with me?:lol (see my stats to appreciate the humor here).
Whine, off. Carry on.
slim03
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Yes.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Yep
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Yup, I like a good fight, but sometimes they insist on going for the head on everytime. I tend to award them with a 30mm to the noggin. :p
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It's just the difference in pilot tendencies. If killing the enemy weighs higher than killing the enemy and survivng the fight, then HO. If killing the enemy and surviving the fight too, is what one wants then don't HO.
Most of the people relying on incessant HOs suck anyway. The only way to ever get shot down by such HO attempts is when you walk into it.
Now, if there's someone who's so good with HOing that he can actually follow you avoiding a HO pass, follw the evasives and kiss your nose, forcing the HO in your front quarter, then that's excellent marksmanship - and he no doubt deserves that kill, as evey bit as taking you out with other 'ACM' methods. Not many can do that.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Now, if there's someone who's so good with HOing that he can actually follow you avoiding a HO pass, follw the evasives and kiss your nose, forcing the HO in your front quarter, then that's excellent marksmanship - and he no doubt deserves that kill, as evey bit as taking you out with other 'ACM' methods. Not many can do that.
I'm in full agreement with you there. That's not yer typical HO dweeb kneejerk reaction. That's talent.
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I have my own stupid rules for this, that I don't expect anyone else to follow.
1. In a 1v1 situation, I won't take the HO shot unless the other guy does first.
2. In a 1vMany situation, I take any shot I can.
3. I will take a HO shot if at first encounter the con is obviously pulling hard to get a HO shot, but only if I know I can't get hit.
Rule #1 bites me in the bellybutton alot.
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I try to avoid the head on Merge, if at all possible.
Merging for me is usually the result of massive speed differential, instead of aircraft heading.
Whe the HO merge is forced though, I know I can't afford to take the HO as a single ping to my Yak is going to get my rad. So anytime I'm in a forward hemesphere merge, I use slight rudder/stick moves to keep out of the way. It usually works for me, but I do still catch a few in the face. Since the HOer is usually an La-7, if I surivive the HO, it usually takes a few seconds before I have the 6 shot, and he's running for ack.
-Sik
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depends on the situation.
lazs
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Lazs used to try to HO me like a mofo. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Depends on who's guns are bigger and who's flying the plane that will generate the most perk points for a kill.
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my point exactly levi... with you it was the likely to be the only shot I was going to get.
lazs
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Head on's are really silly.
It takes no skill and at best you've got a 50-50 shot of winning.
Might was well flip a coin all day and save the $15.00 a month.
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HOs are part of the game, but
it takes two to tango..
So if you don't want a head on... dont head on. one should never engage an enemy fighter unless he's in a superior position anyways.
A tactic I use in a potential HO merge is:
I push my stick so I'm diving, so that
1)he doesnt get a HO firing solution
2)I'm going faster
I pull up a tad before merge, to
1)foil the firing solution even more
2)I'm already climbing to reverse on him while he's still going straight, giving me an angles edge
That's basically it...
or is my tactic totally screwed?
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That's a good tactic, Dowd, and I've used it alot.
For some reason, the enemy seems to bag me on the deflection show anyway. It happens a little too often, giving me the feeling I'm not diving hard enough on the initial merge.
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Roland: "I push my stick so I'm diving, so that
1)he doesnt get a HO firing solution"
setting yourself up for a cockpit shot there.
Roland: "I pull up a tad before merge, to
2)I'm already climbing to reverse on him while he's still going straight, giving me an angles edge"
My opponents rarely oblige me by flying straight through a merge. Ususally, they've got the same idea as me. They either head up, or turn immediately after they pass.
I'll sometimes point my nose down to gather speed, then zoom up either right before we pass (i know i know) or immediately after, but I assume he's either doing the same or turning. But sometimes (and this baffles me) they's head straight for the deck even though they my be in a plane that can't possibly outrun my PonyD.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
That's a good tactic, Dowd, and I've used it alot.
For some reason, the enemy seems to bag me on the deflection show anyway. It happens a little too often, giving me the feeling I'm not diving hard enough on the initial merge.
Yeah, I agree, you're prolly not diving hard enough initially. When I point my nose down, I point it way down till I'm about 500-600 feet under him. I try to maiintain that seperation til we pass.
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"I push my stick so I'm diving, so that he doesnt get a HO firing solution"
- setting yourself up for a cockpit shot there
Cockpit shot is a possibility, but it is also an incredibly hard shot to take and the chances of it happening extremely slim. The closure speed and angle between two planes approaching head-on usually means the appropriate amount of lead is also incredibly longer than one might expect.
It even gets better, when you go into a dive with a slight turn to left and right - virtually impossible to hit a plane evading that way for an average pilot. The only instance where you get hit, is most usually when you start the dive too late - which usually takes off the vertical stab.
I've seen only a handful of people who can consistently deal critical damage against a plane going into that typical evasives - 3 pilots, fester, Taki, and Rude immediately come into my mind. Besides these guys I've almost never been shot down while trying to evade a HO.
"I'm already climbing to reverse on him while he's still going straight, giving me an angles edge"
- My opponents rarely oblige me by flying straight through a merge. Ususally, they've got the same idea as me. They either head up, or turn immediately after they pass.
I'll sometimes point my nose down to gather speed, then zoom up either right before we pass (i know i know) or immediately after, but I assume he's either doing the same or turning. But sometimes (and this baffles me) they's head straight for the deck even though they my be in a plane that can't possibly outrun my PonyD.
Depends on situation. Experience usually dictates to the pilot that when the enemy turns first then you go straight, and when the enemy does not turn you turn first. However so many different variables are in concern with what happens after the first HO merge that it's almost too hard to discuss.
I'm in full agreement with you there. That's not yer typical HO dweeb kneejerk reaction. That's talent.
Then you don't have to complain about anything. Typical HO dweebs are super easy to avoid and take advantage of. You know they will rely on maximum turns and pulls at every possible corner to get a gun solution any way they can(which usually results in HOs) - what's easier to handle when you know what he's gonna do?
The guys that really scare me is the ones in Spit9s or N1K2s who know how to use that plane - luring fast fighters into lazy turns or shallow dives and bam! - a catastrophic overshoot with not much E difference bewteen two planes, which usually lands the enemy plane behind my 6 at 400~500 yards, with the acceleration advantage on me. As I accelerate away the fediddlein' long-range gunnery aspect of AH kicks in as they snipe or spray Hizookas and quad-Type99s at 500~600 yards.
That's what bothers me - HOs have not for once bothered me.
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I'm not here to dance. I'm here to shoot you down. If a head on shot is presented then I will take it. The faster I knock you down, the faster I get to your buddies.
Now all I have to do is get good at it...lol
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i go for the HO, fire a couple of shots from like 2k, then i pull out. i get on the targets six, have him warp behind me and hit enter 3 times, and forget to open chute fast enough......
rinse
repeat
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Bah. Kweassa already touched on the points I was thinking of. Except that I dont wait to see what the other guy is going to do after the merge to decide what Im doing.
The enemy plane type and speed that is closing to joust you, should indicate whether you are going for pure sidesteping a HO, or setting up for a pre-turn.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
As I accelerate away the fediddlein' long-range gunnery aspect of AH kicks in as they snipe or spray Hizookas and quad-Type99s at 500~600 yards.
LOL. Yes, this is one thing I am looking forward to in AH2...less spray-sniping.
Originally posted by Blooz
I'm not here to dance. I'm here to shoot you down. If a head on shot is presented then I will take it.
As has been said above, HO's are almost always avoidable, and usually put the HOer at a disadvantage after the merge. The only time I am caught by them is if I give in to temptation and try matching the HO myself--then I am invariably shot down. Serves me right. :)
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When I duck under an enemy on the merge and hear his/her guns firing, I know my odds of getting the kill just increased greatly. That being said, hell I'll HO sometimes too though, just depends on my mood and the situation.
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Originally posted by slimm50
I'm just curious...is there ANYONE out there who, upon encountering an enemy fighter, tries to do somehting other than face-shoot as a first reaction.
Yep. Maneuvering for a shot that has at best a 50/50 chance of succeeding and even a greater chance of you being damaged as result is pretty stupid.
ack-ack
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You can usually tell whos gonna fly in straight lines and try for the HO kill. Majority of the time its all the late war planes. Pprobably cause they attract all the newer players with the limited skill at the time who think faster is better. Most early war fighters you can expect to dogfight rather than extending and flying in straight lines back and forth. just my observation of the MA.
p.s. Any high pony or p-38 don't except to fight.. 90% of em in the MA are on a jabo suicide pork run anyway.
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Originally posted by Blooz
I'm not here to dance. I'm here to shoot you down. If a head on shot is presented then I will take it. The faster I knock you down, the faster I get to your buddies.
Now all I have to do is get good at it...lol
I would suggest that you concentrate more on ACM than becoming proficient at the HO. There is no skill involved in a 0 deflection shot and the percentages of surviving the HO are 50% at best and the percent of coming away unscathed are less than 50%.
I find, in my experience, that 9 out of 10 guys that try to HO me end up dead ... if the don't make the "one pass - haul prettythang" also known as the "HO and GO" maneuver.
It seems the guy that always goes for the HO, is always expecting the 50/50 result ... I am either going to die or he is going to die.
Their thoughts of what do I do if the other guy side-steps or barrlerolls around the HO never enters their mind. So, once the HO is avoided, they probably scream ... "oh crap" what do I do now ... yank the stick up, start a hard flat turn, or dive to the deck. Meanwhile, the other guy has already thought of at least two countermoves to the merge and has now attached himself securely to your 6. Joust over.
For the life of me I cannot figure out why people will fly 1 or more sectors, only to HO the first guy they see and then plummet to the ground with their burning wreck or sustain damage that takes them out of any other fight that might come their way.
Don't get me wrong, I will face-shoot you if I am mixing it up with multiples and my only solution to eliminate one of them is the HO, otherwise, I avoid them at all costs.
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Slap, my sentiments, exactly.
slim03
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Originally posted by SlapShot
... if the don't make the "one pass - haul prettythang" maneuver...
I call that the "HO and GO".
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Utilize the over aggressivness of the con against them...
Dive under his nose at the last second, if the con continues to try to get headon solution you then pull 3 g turn and get out of his way...
If he continues to track while your pulling 3 g's one his shot on you is 1 in 10,000 also he pulling a higher g load which will hurt him when you decide to zoom after the merge...
its pretty amusing some fool thinks they headoning me while im thinking this baffoon will be dead in 3 manuevers do to my e fighting....
Like everything certain tactics have strengths and weaknesses and as such in this case if they comming for a headon use energy tactics against them...
Correct use of the headon is when:
highly outnumbered (desperation)
forcing a headon on a diving/attacking con who is near vertical in AOA...
Targets of opportunity (hence the con chasing your buddy and is not aware of your presence....)
Stalling or floudering aircraft after e fighting them...
there may be few others but live by those rules and your headon woes will diminish...
It really does take two aircraft for a headon...
2 Cents
DoctorYo
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Usually don't HO on the first contact, but anything goes after the merge.
If the HO gets on your nerves, up a G6 or G10, tempt every con coming your way into the ho, start shooting everything at about 1.2, break at 700 and watch the bad guy go down in flames.;)
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alls fair in love and war... deal.
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First off, HO'in should never be a "First" option on an intial merge when a con is 5ticks out, But there are cases when a HO for the initial pass is the only thing you can do (even then you can still aviod it)...
Instead of diving under a plane on merge, try a slight turn and slight dive have him at maybe 25 degrees off the front..(What Kweassa Mentioned in his first post) This allows you to either come back on em and trail him while he thinks of what to do (no guns in his rear, pretty safe place to be) if you break to early the con can saddle up on your 6 easy so careful... By entering a dive and reaching 500mph, thats no good you've just hand cuffed yourself.. unless you're in a p47, or some other plane which can pull some wicked moves at those speeds.. otherwise any plane will take that much longer to reverse at higher speeds... In knife fighting turn battles sometimes its a plus to have less E, by this I mean the slower you are means a tighter turn.. But not for long, usually when E states are that low you better kill, or be killed...
70% of the time I love to enter a fight with an "Appeared" disadvantage, because the attacker gets into an Offensive state of mind, and gets into the "I've got this kill bagged" syndrom.... oh so many mistakes can be made in this state of mind.. Unless you are an Ace... and if you are... you'll be some what defensive always aware and expecting any counter manuever that will come his way..
Nothing better than experiencing a great dog fight ....
So stay frosty, keep your wings level and don't worry... you'll live to fly another day around here..
-BM
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i couldnt agree more man, check out my post on Etiquette of air combat
dweebs!