Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hornet on December 13, 2003, 07:41:08 PM
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Drop the attack option for fighter aircraft and you will knock out 1/3 of the suicide dweebs in the MA.
The original reasons for putting it in were all thinly veiled score whines anyhow.
We'll still have suicide porkers, but this should cut out the more experienced players who know better but get lazy and dumb in large groups. It should neuter some squad nights in their current form and that would be a good thing.
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So your assertion then is that suicide jabos are guys that care about their fighter score but not their attack score?
Pretty simplistic solution to a probelm I think.
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I wish they would just automate it.
If your dropping stuff in the dirt or straffing planes on ground it should score those kills as attack automatically.
If your destoying objects score as attack.
If you kill other planes in the air score as fighter automatically.
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Originally posted by Pongo
So your assertion then is that suicide jabos are guys that care about their fighter score but not their attack score?
Pretty simplistic solution to a probelm I think.
Didn't posit it as a complete solution...please read the actual post please.
My thoughts as well SiixxGun.
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Hornet I disagree.
While I hate'um as much as you do, I see "them" in a different way.
I don't see them as score mongers. If the scoring system was changed as you suggest I don't think it would change a thing.
I see them as low experienced guys that try to fit in to the current "goal" of taking bases and winning the war in a real time basis.
Nothin better for a new guy to announce on country channel, "Such'n such is ready for a goon"...."Fighter hangers are down at such'n such, "Fuels down..bring it"
Their PART of the game in a VERY short amount of time.
There talkin and relating and there IN there when their online. Score has nothing to do with it.
It's to be accepted as a cog in the wheel of the war that never ends. To be a "part" of this world we escape to.
Your old school, I'm old school. If it takes ninety years we will be the badest mothers in the valley.
They're missing that. And the sad part is they don't even know it.
But until there is a decent training system here, the lemmings will continue to outnumber the fighters.
You have a good training system, the lemmings won't be lemmings, they'll be fighters in training.
This place would be scary with an arena full of fighters.
Makes me shiver..
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The only training required is that necessary to get their VISA card number safely into the corporate computer. They all have that. ;)
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Wrong analogy.
People who suicide into things probably don't even know that there's such thing as an "Attack" score button at the hangar.
People don't suicide into things for scores. People suicide it because they are posessed by the great objective of winning, but do not pay the price of dying.
They want to help their country win, and have fun pushing the enemy back. But since they suck, they aren't much of help. So instead of going the long process of learning to do things right(which in pure terms of effectivity, is actually less effective than rampant suicidal runs), they simply jump into the target with bombs strapped on.
Oh they don't INTEND to die, but they sure don't care about surviving the attack run.
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"them"
lololol !
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This issue first came to light with suiciders hitting the cvs. HT asked for suggestions but it seems he discovered the futility of trying to put an end to it. Now it has extended over to a much worse problem.
Im hoping the TOD arena will bring about a change of pace.
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Poop you always make a good point, and training, not the "shame" threads on the bbs, or gameplay prodding like my suggestion is the holy grail here.
Sometimes I think though that maybe HiTech has made his world a little too good....and art now truly imitates life.
If so even training may fall short. It becomes a case of what part of one's personality brings them...or more accurately pulls them in here. Eventually we may have to accept the rule that "5%...5% will be tigers."
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Ahh, you all ASSUME that the suicide dweebs are noobs. I have picked up many a proxy of some pretty big names that suicide pork. The problem is there is no consequence for the action.
ie: I was at 12k when i spot a typh coming into our base. He dives out and starts to lose me so I adjust to pick him of coming out the other side of the field. He straffs the barracks at the airfield but i catch him before he gets to the town. The name comes up and I say to myself hmmm, I must have got lucky.
Well not too long later I'm back on my perch at 16k when I spot another typh coming in. He blows past me, puts nose down and heads for the town like a screaming banshee. After following his dive I realize I better pull out now or not at all. I skim the ground and get the proxy on the typh. Same guy. I private text him and tell him i didnt think he was a suicide dweeb. His response, " I got your barracks didn't I?"
There are a lot of guys out there that just know how to game the game. The problem will never go away until theres a price to pay for dying. Hurting your rank is no such price.
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I'm sure you guys all realize the only point of this game is entertainment. If part of the entertainment value was not intended to be base capture then objects would be invulnerable.
I find it kind of silly to ridicule someone for how they take their pleasure from this game, but that's just me.
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I don't think anyone cares how they have fun. If they want to fly into the ground over and over let them. The problem is the disproportional impact some of these suiciders have on the other players.
There have been calls for lots of radical solutions. Like perking ord, planes limits etc..... All are far worse then the suiciders. If game play could be restructured to take the focus away from field capture that would be best.
At the very least (AH2 fields look good) make the structures harder for 1 or 2 guys to pork. Add more fuel tanks per field. Space them out. Adjust the amount of re-supply per goon etc....
The fighter guys don’t want to force them into something they don’t enjoy. However they have no problem forcing their idea of fun on every one else.
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I think the ATTACK scoring category is important for people who simply don't like to dogfight. This game is not just about dogfights. It does have objectives that involve winning perk points by taking all of another countries bases. I find it entertaining that many of the players who scream at others for disabling their forward barracks and being suicide dweebs (to prevent their eastern front from being rolled up) are the same guys who are flying LaLa's, N1K's and Spit's. I find it hard to believe that THOSE types of pilots are holding the banner for "true" fighter savvy and what the game is really all about.
I think the best solution for people who want to fly strategic missions vs. those who like to dogfight exclusively is what is already being proposed. In AH2, we will have the standard MA and in addition to that, we will have the strategic "war" environment which really requires squad level cooperation and is about taking territory/running missions.
Remember, if you don't give attack scoring as an option, then quite a few planes in the current plane set are going to be fairly useless to fly (with regard to gaining perk points) and might as well be removed. BF-110 and A-20 are two that come to mind. Granted, they can be flown with deadly effect by a good pilot, but not against swarms of N1K and LaLa dweebs. Or is the real intent here to simply reduce the plane set to 3 different fighters ?
I also have a broader definition of "suicide dweeb". Anyone who ups to fly against Leviathn or Steve..... LOL....
Hyrax
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we will have the strategic "war" environment which really requires squad level cooperation and is about taking territory/running missions.
HT said there will be no base capture or war winning in AH2:ToD. It's a mission based arena. He will run specific theaters but there will be no land grab etc......
That type of gameplay will always be apart of the main.
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Okey doke...
Thanks for the correction.
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How about something like:
If you collide with a ground object or terrain within 3 seconds of dropping ord = no points or perks & any damage you do repairs at twice the normal rate for the object.
Or
Death based cost increases for 500kg/1000lb bombs per player and/or cost increases for a/c:
Attack mission sortie/death ratio > 0.75
P47+2 x 1k bombs = 0 perks
ratio between .5 and 0.75
P47+2 x1k bombs = 5 perks
ratio between .5 and .1
P47+ 2 x1k bombs = 20 perks
ratio < 0.1
100 perks
250kg/500lbers or less would alway be free,
but you would need to work with others or make more than one run to have the same effect.
This would cut at the hart of the problem: death doesn't cost anything so why try and stay alive?
I also agree with changing the rules so that a/c still on the ground count as attack kills, not fighter kills.
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I just wonder why there is a "base capture" score in the attack area.
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Originally posted by SixxGunn
I wish they would just automate it.
If your dropping stuff in the dirt or straffing planes on ground it should score those kills as attack automatically.
If your destoying objects score as attack.
If you kill other planes in the air score as fighter automatically.
You would have to stop scoring gunnery accuracy.
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One of the reasons ToD seems so attractive to me is that it provides major incentive not to be a suicide dweeb. I hope ToD is popular.
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Hornet - but keep it for LA7! ;) Just kidding!
I used to score fighter and attack sorties separately, but tend not to bother any more. The thing to remember is that jabo planes are going to be slow and cumbersome, and won't be operating at great height. For that reason they are more vulnerable. Jabo is very high risk. You can be cherrypicked en route to the target, you can be acked as you make your attacking run and/or shot by a GV. And noobs may well get blown up as their target explodes. Too much of this can really make a mess of your fighter stats assuming you care about them. So the facility of scoring jabo missions in your attack stats can be useful.
As for automating the sortie type according to ord loadout, I don't think this would work but I can see why the furballers think that it could. The reason it wouldn't work is because what begins as a jabo sortie often becomes a fighter sortie after eggs have been deployed on target. Thus the issue is not black and white; there are shades of grey in between.
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Originally posted by nopoop
I see them as low experienced guys.
It means you still do not know this game good enough. Lot of suicide attackers are highly experienced in jabo work. Low experienced guys die during first jabo run either due to compression, acks, or enemy fighters, so they never do any significant dammage, unless in packs. When you see front line fields of one country all porked you can bet some strat oriented highly experienced squad working in this sector.
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During WWII the award structure for attack was quite different from fighter status, and this is reflected in the two categories of score. The one shining example of a contradiction in this award system are vultches. Traditionally, a fighter pilot could not claim a kill for planes on the ground. Boyington is the only pilot ever awarded a kill for a ground attack, and not everyone goes along with that to this day. Yet, in Aces High you can boost your fighter score by vultching. Do away with that if anything (yeah, right)!
Attack is scored separately in order to measure your individual ability to hit the target. In scoring as a fighter that target should be planes and not mud.
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You know, I don't mind the suiciders from my point of view. The simple fact is that I don't have the time to commit to the strat idea. Sure, I can (and have done so) help with a goon, capping a field, even ground attack. But it's all just 'what suits my mood at the moment'.
And I have to admit, my whole purpose in this game, if there is such a thing is TO SHOOT DOWN OTHER PEOPLE. After a hard days' work I want to get in my Messerschmitt or Mustang and kill the unwary. In my 1.5 years here I have found out that I haven't become 'part of the community'. I don't fly enough, haven't found people with a similar mindset either. So I just come here to annoy other people by shooting them down.
Still, I'm learning (slowly) as a lone wolf because that's all I do. I ask for nothing more than aircraft to shoot at (the game gives me plenty) and to re-live something of WWII air combat. Most of my kills are from an advantageous tactical position and I kill a LOT of suiciders and novices.
Indeed, an arena full of fighters, constanly honing their skills... that would not be a nice place to be for the averagely talented and sure as hell not for novices. The top 50 (100, 200?) of really skilled pilots here already can dominate the game.