Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Pei on December 15, 2003, 05:26:11 AM
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Would it be possible to make the icons be less visible (i.e. smaller or paler ) and show less information the further away the target is?
Right now we know as much about a plane at 6K yards as we do 50yards.
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Originally posted by Pei
Right now we know as much about a plane at 6K yards as we do 50yards.
i'm sure toad will chime in with his R/L observation of the range of good old markIV eyeballs.
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"This is your Captain speaking. You are now free to educate yourselves."
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25522&highlight=visual
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24575&highlight=visual
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Toad,
2 questions for you ( I don't know the answers beacuse a) I'm not a pilot and b) I'm pretty short sighted):
Do you think the average pilot could reliable distinguish the type and national markings of a WWII aircraft at 6000 yards?
Could they do so with a brief glance?
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Well Pei, I can tell you this for a true fact:
At 2 miles both my copilot and I could make out individual windows on other airliners at cruise altitudes. This was over the Atlantic on the NAT tracks, on a clear day with little or no haze, when you've got nothing but time to wonder about stuff.
How do I know it was two miles? First of all, the TCAS transponder system that gives range, altitude and general direction of other participating aircraft.
Secondly, crossing waypoints and giving time reports. We'd cross the same waypoint. I'd just listen to the time they reported and compare our time/distance on the GPS FMS unit.
When you follow a guy for 4 hours, 2 miles in trail (or a bit off to the side; evreybody's GPS and FMS are a tiny bit different usually) and 2000 feet below you have plenty of time to look at him.
Those windows are roughly the size of a kid's notebook paper. Call it 12X10 inches and you'd be close. You could actually count them at 2 miles.
You could see the little American flag on US carriers' tails out past a mile. It's not as big as a Spit roundel.
So yeah, I think you could. Easily.
You guys don't seem to realize that the high, thin, clear air allows much longer distance vision. MUCH longer.
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How about on a foggy night and you have pinkeye?
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Would depend on if I'd been drinking.
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Originally posted by Toad
Well Pei, I can tell you this for a true fact:
At 2 miles both my copilot and I could make out individual windows on other airliners at cruise altitudes. This was over the Atlantic on the NAT tracks, on a clear day with little or no haze, when you've got nothing but time to wonder about stuff.
How do I know it was two miles? First of all, the TCAS transponder system that gives range, altitude and general direction of other participating aircraft.
Secondly, crossing waypoints and giving time reports. We'd cross the same waypoint. I'd just listen to the time they reported and compare our time/distance on the GPS FMS unit.
When you follow a guy for 4 hours, 2 miles in trail (or a bit off to the side; evreybody's GPS and FMS are a tiny bit different usually) and 2000 feet below you have plenty of time to look at him.
Those windows are roughly the size of a kid's notebook paper. Call it 12X10 inches and you'd be close. You could actually count them at 2 miles.
You could see the little American flag on US carriers' tails out past a mile. It's not as big as a Spit roundel.
So yeah, I think you could. Easily.
You guys don't seem to realize that the high, thin, clear air allows much longer distance vision. MUCH longer.
Thanks.
I kind of like the fading icons in WWIIOL (you need to look longer a targets further away to get the detail). Do you think that's realistic or do you only need a glance to get most of the data in real life?
I'm also wondering how far out you would be able to distinguish the configuration of an a/c (e.g. 1 vs 2 engines) or a large bomber from a fighter (given good conditions). Would I be right in thinking that most fighter pilots could do this further than our current max icon range?
Also maybe icon ranges should be reduced at night or bad light (i.e. according to conditions).
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Sounds reasonable ... and more challenging.
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I only played WW2OL for a little while. I thought the fade in/ fade out was way too long compared to RL.
You do need to look longer to see detail, but I thought they overdid it.
As far as a glance, within reasonable range I think you can get the basic necessary info with a glance. Stuff like Friend/Foe and aspect for sure anyway.
Yes, you can tell a multi from a single a long ways away. Much farther than we can in AH, IMO. It's the pixel limit thing, I guess.
You have the problem of a small dot being a distant bomber or perhaps a much closer fighter in RL too. They're both just dots. However, in RL, they gain detail at much farther ranges than dots in AH.
Night viz is very restricted unless there's some sort of illumination. WX is the same; clouds, fog and such can reduce your viz to the end of your radome. Nothing like flying welded wing, hitting some weather on an approach and totally losing lead in the goo... knowing you were about 2 feet off his wingtip when last you saw him. ;)
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guys if you want to see what its like to have icons off just hit
ALT-I and set icons to off
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Even on the deck on a clear day with decent sunshine you can tell plane details a LONG ways away.
I grew up in flat level bowl of the Red River Valley. aka Fargo ND.
Growning up there were 3 yellow planes that I could expect to see on a semi regular basis.
2 were cropdusters, 1 was an old stearman biplane. The third was a 2 passenger light plane that belonged to a friend of mine.
at 2.5 miles I could EASILY see which was which, even if he was making a HO pass on me. (sucker loved to sneak up on me & buzz my tractor from 20 feet up)
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Toad is just over modeled...we have all suspected it for some time.
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But.. but.. but.. I lost 20lbs! I'm trying to undermodel myself!
I used to have 20/15 in both eyes, but my eyes got old.
I could still see what I've described after that, so my copilots were probably seeing much more detail. ;)
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Theres a naval base about 10 miles from where I live. I can see the difference between a jet and a cargo plane at seven miles.
Here you'd just see dots. I imagine pilots had no trouble spotting enemy planes at 7 miles.
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Guys, what about this?
1) Training your eye on an object far away, but which you already know is there.. and 2) scanning through the empty void of the sky and lush green terrain, not knowing what is out there and where it will manifest - won't this make some considerable differences?
I never been inside of a cockpit, but since all men of my country are conscripted for military service, I've been through some basic combat training through the mountain terrains - I'm sure the open sky is a lot different from bushes and forests, but what I've experienced is this: when you are told a certain unit is placed where, in what position, you look for them deliberately when you pass the place. You can easily spot ambush devices and junkets and etc.
However, when you are not told what would be where, and you must prepare for a clandestine meeting with the other unit, I really had no idea where what would show up, even when the soldiers of other units are as close as within 100m distance.
Same thing with AH - I see the dot dar, know where the enemy is, and easily spot him from out very far, even with the limited pixels and dots. But when the dar is out, while scanning around I miss dots that are clearly visible(if I train my eyes on them), and sometimes get bounced.
Would it be the same - being able to tell all the details, immediately recognizing the position of enemy planes from far out, if you have no knowledge but the general heading and altitude the radar operators give you?
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Realistic? this is a computer game folks...
Remove the Icons for enemy ACīs and keep them for friendly ACīs....
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I think the gulf is just too wide.
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Maniac, sometimes there really is a need for 'selective realism'.
I've flown a lot of no-icon games in Forgotten Battles, as its graphics detail level actually makes it possible to spot enemies at certain distances even without icons.
The problem is, the fight becomes realistic, yes, but the fun factor keeps on dropping, while nervousness, jumpiness, and frustration builds.
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There are some undeniable pros to no-icon settings, yes. If anyone wants to experience the typical WW2 battle in the style of "as real as it gets", then play no-icon games in FB.
The meaning of tactics and communication is whole lot different in FB. Why it is deemed "80% of those who were shot down never even saw their attacker", you begin to understand.
Altitude literally becomes a life line, as when you are attacked by an enemy you did not see, the chances are, there won't be any ACM contest as in AH. It's either a call for help immediately and start a luftberry circle, or go into a dive and hope you outrun him(where ever he is).
Sudden strikes on your plane, important parts are damaged and failing, and in dismay you look around your 5, 6, 7 oc and see nothing there. You wiggle the plane to see where the enemy came from, or where he went off to, but since you never saw him coming, the odds are you'll never be able to spot where he went, even if you survive his first pass.
While you are wiggling around frantically to spot where the heck he went, second enemy plane swoops down and shoots at you. Bam! With two passes you are dead, and you couldn't even see what was happening to you. The sensation of total helplessness is really something. Most of those attackers, you know you can outmaneuver and shoot him down in 1vs1 fight. In AH, BnZ passes can be easily anticipated and taken advantage of. Well, not in FB.
Also, having to swing your head around to see just where the enemy is, is really cool. When somebody is behind you in a chase, if you are careless you will lose sight of him, and will not be able to find him until he shoots you down. This sort of thing almost never happens in AH - the icons are there to help you.
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But the problem is, in that kind of environment, disorganization and loose teamplay literally kills the gameplay. While one pilot flies around some 30~40 minutes without meeting a single enemy, the other pilot is getting shot down. Unless in an organized event like the VOW, having a no-icon game in a fast-paced gameplay room is a disaster - it gets too real!
In about 10 sorties you will get to meet a couple of enemies, and the odds are, you won't finish that fight. After one guy extends, its the massive void again, floating around until the fuel warning lamp lights up, and rtbing to another kill-less sortie.
Yeah, that's realism alright. But unless every participant is willing to organize themselves in a realistic manner - as in squad strengths, communication procedures, prompt reporting of enemy contact, propmt reporting of combat situations, strictly disciplined leader/wingman tactics and etc etc.. - it doesn't work when people are loosely gathered around as in AH.