Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on December 15, 2003, 03:51:26 PM
-
For anyone that might be a skeptic: A search on this LtCol reveals at a military URL that he is connected to the MWSS171, as indicated.
From the Commanding Officer at MWSS-171 to his Marines.
-----Original Message-----
From: Seitz LtCol Scot S
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 8:40 AM
To: 1MAW MWSS171 All Personnel
Cc: Fenstermacher Col Stephen M; Kirkpatrick LtCol Stephen F; Chase
LtCol Eric T
Subject: ACCOMPLISHMENTS
Marines and Sailors,
As we approach the end of the year I think it is important
to share a few thoughts about what you've accomplished directly,
in some cases, and indirectly in many others. I am speaking about
what the Bush Administration and each of you has contributed by wearing
the uniform, because the fact that you wear the uniform contributes
100% to the capability of the nation to send a few onto the field to
execute national policy. As you read about these achievements you are
a part of , I would call your attention to two things:
1. This is good news that hasn't been fit to print or report on TV.
2. It is much easier to point out the errors a man makes when he makes
the tough decisions, rarely is the positive as aggressively pursued.
Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1...
... the first battalion of the new Iraqi Army has graduated and is on active
duty.
... over 60,000 Iraqis now provide security to their fellow citizens.
... nearly all of Iraq's 400 courts are functioning.
... the Iraqi judiciary is fully independent.
... on Monday, October 6 power generation hit 4,518 megawatts-exceeding the
prewar average.
... all 22 universities and 43 technical institutes and colleges are open,
as are nearly all primary and secondary schools.
... by October 1, Coalition forces had rehab-ed over 1,500 schools - 500
more than scheduled.
... teachers earn from 12 to 25 times their former salaries.
... all 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are open.
... doctors salaries are at least eight times what they were under Saddam.
... pharmaceutical distribution has gone from essentially nothing to 700
tons in May to a current total of 12,000 tons.
... the Coalition has helped administer over 22 million vaccinations to
Iraq's children.
... a Coalition program has cleared over 14,000 kilometers of Iraq's 27,000
kilometers of weed-choked canals which now irrigate tens of thousands of
farms. This project has created jobs for more than 100,000 Iraqi men and
women.
... we have restored over three-quarters of prewar telephone services and
over two-thirds of the potable water production.
... there are 4,900 full-service telephone connections. We expect 50,000 by
year-end.
... the wheels of commerce are turning. From bicycles to satellite dishes
to cars and trucks, businesses are coming to life in all major cities and
towns.
... 95 percent of all prewar bank customers have service and first-time
customers are opening accounts daily.
... Iraqi banks are making loans to finance businesses.
... the central bank is fully independent.
... Iraq has one of the worlds most growth-oriented investment and banking
laws.
... Iraq has a single, unified currency for the first time in 15 years.
... satellite TV dishes are legal.
... foreign journalists aren't on 10-day visas paying mandatory and
extortionate fees to the Ministry of Information for "minders" and other
government spies.
... there is no Ministry of Information.
... there are more than 170 newspapers.
... you can buy satellite dishes on what seems like every street corner.
... foreign journalists (and everyone else) are free to come and go.
... a nation that had not one single element - legislative, judicial or
executive - of a representative government, now does.
... in Baghdad alone residents have selected 88 advisory councils.
Baghdad's first democratic transfer of power in 35 years happened when the
city council elected its new chairman.
... today in Iraq chambers of commerce, business, school and professional
organizations are electing their leaders all over the country.
... 25 ministers, selected by the most representative governing body in
Iraq's history, run the day-to-day business of government.
... the Iraqi government regularly participates in international events.
Since July the Iraqi government has been represented in over two dozen
international meetings, including those of the UN General Assembly, the Arab
League, the World Bank and IMF and, today, the Islamic Conference Summit.
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs today announced that it is reopening over 30
Iraqi embassies around the world.
... Shia religious festivals that were all but banned, aren't.
... for the first time in 35 years, in Karbala thousands of Shiites
celebrate the pilgrimage of the 12th Imam.
... the Coalition has completed over 13,000 reconstruction projects, large
and small, as part of a strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq.
... Uday and Queasy are dead - and no longer feeding innocent Iraqis to the
zoo lions, raping the young daughters of local leaders to force cooperation,
torturing Iraq's soccer players for losing games, or murdering critics.
... children aren't imprisoned or murdered when their parents disagree with
the government.
... political opponents aren't imprisoned, tortured, executed, maimed, or
are forced to watch their families die for disagreeing with Saddam.
... millions of longsuffering Iraqis no longer live in perpetual terror.
... Saudis will hold municipal elections.
... Qatar is reforming education to give more choices to parents.
... Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms.
... the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first time to an Iranian -- a
Muslim woman who speaks out with courage for human rights, for democracy and
for peace.
... Saddam is gone.
... Iraq is free.
... President Bush has not faltered or failed.
... Yet, little or none of this information has been published by the Press
corps that prides itself on bringing you all the news that's important.
Iraq under US lead control has come further in six months than Germany did
in seven years or Japan did in nine years following WWII. Military deaths
from fanatic Nazi's, and Japanese numbered in the thousands and continued
for over three years after WWII victory was declared.
It took the US over four months to clear away the twin tower debris, let
alone attempt to build something else in its place.
Now, take into account that Congress fought President Bush on every aspect
of his handling of this country's war and the post-war reconstruction; and
that they continue to claim on a daily basis on national TV that this conflict
has been a failure.
Taking everything into consideration, even the unfortunate loss of our brothers
and sisters in this conflict, do you think anyone else in the world could
have accomplished as much as the United States and the Bush administration
in so short a period of time?
These are things worth writing about. Get the word out. Write to someone you
think may be able to influence our Congress or the press to tell the story.
Above all, be proud that you are a part of this historical precedent.
God Bless you all. Have a great Holiday.
Semper Fidelis,
CO
-
Kinda quiet out there, Nexus? Any of the Bush bashers want to comment?
Well I will, I'm still critical of the administrations failure to get a new Iraqi Gov't up and running, though I could see how its not a very secure place to do so at the moment. Gotta clean it up first.
-
RIP. Its not nice to hide behind service men, have you ever served your country?
But it is interesting that an officer is telling his troops how to behave politically.
Does the Marine Corps have commisars now?
-
Why do you feel compelled to change the subject? Is there something threatening to you in this email?
-
He is telling them to be proud for how they have already behaved, not how to behave in the future.
-
Originally posted by Pongo
RIP. Its not nice to hide behind service men, have you ever served your country?
But it is interesting that an officer is telling his troops how to behave politically.
Does the Marine Corps have commisars now?
Pongo Ripsnort IS an American Therefore he serves his country every day thank you!
He serves His country with his taxes and his vote!
Sorry Rip did not mean to speak for you.
-
Pongo is American too.. just not a citizen of the US.. he's a Citizen of another American country.
-
Fine point, but citizens of the U.S. are considered to be "Americans", Canadians and Mexicans are considered to be from North America.
-
Originally posted by Pongo
RIP. Its not nice to hide behind service men, have you ever served your country?
So when did military service become a requirement for being proud of our military? How about next time you try constructing an argument instead of going ad hominem in the first line?
-
Punt,
What say the detractors, Nexus, dolf-bader ?
Is this important or what?
I know no WMD (sing you mantra)
Funny how the doom and gloomers kind of overlook this stuff, what is great, is that history and Iraq won't.
This is real and we can look back in 10 years (God willing) and say we were there.
Thanks Rip for the post
-
PONGO...I served...(and still do)....should I repost that to make you happy? Would that change the content of the post. Will it change the meaning it what it says. Will it make LtCol Scot s Seitz's mesage any different. NO it wont
-
Pongo - exactly which conflicts have you served through?
-
Funked.
This
"Kinda quiet out there, Nexus? Any of the Bush bashers want to comment?
"
is an ad hominem debating tactic. You dont see that I guess.
All Rip had to say was
"Some good news from Iraq," put in the quote and salute the troops.
I think that the opinions of the commander of a Marine Air Station in Japan about the situation in Iraq and the political picture are important, I am glad that Rhumsfeld passed them on to the Comandant of the marines and that the Commandant passed them on to the base commander and that he passed them on to his troops. I'm even glad that Rip passed them on to us. I dont appreciate him using the LtCol as a means to attack others on the board though.
-
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Pongo - exactly which conflicts have you served through?
Cold war buddy. But even if I served on Juno beach I wouldnt use a service man to to attack other members of this comunity.
-
Saur he has done more than his part.
-
Originally posted by Pongo
Funked.
This
"Kinda quiet out there, Nexus? Any of the Bush bashers want to comment?
"
is an ad hominem debating tactic. You dont see that I guess.
You are right. I guess I expect more from you than from Drippy.
-
Originally posted by Pongo
Funked.
This
"Kinda quiet out there, Nexus? Any of the Bush bashers want to comment?
"
is an ad hominem debating tactic. You dont see that I guess.
All Rip had to say was
"Some good news from Iraq," put in the quote and salute the troops.
I think that the opinions of the commander of a Marine Air Station in Japan about the situation in Iraq and the political picture are important, I am glad that Rhumsfeld passed them on to the Comandant of the marines and that the Commandant passed them on to the base commander and that he passed them on to his troops. I'm even glad that Rip passed them on to us. I dont appreciate him using the LtCol as a means to attack others on the board though.
boy you canadians are sensative if you think that was an attack....I dont see anything in his post at all that sudjested anything about anybody except a little FYI on the the mesages author
-
Originally posted by Pongo
Cold war buddy. But even if I served on Juno beach I wouldnt use a service man to to attack other members of this comunity.
Do they not use them to attack us as well?
http://www.kucinich.us/dk.html
just an example
-
Originally posted by Pongo
Cold war buddy. But even if I served on Juno beach I wouldnt use a service man to to attack other members of this comunity.
Retracted, and thank you for your service.
-
Originally posted by Pongo
I dont appreciate him using the LtCol as a means to attack others on the board though.
Can you explain this further? I asked for comments from the Bush bashers. You replied, but it had nothing to do with the article. You imply I'm doing this behind the LtCol? Doing what? Calling a spade a spade? How did you come to the conclusion that I was "hiding" behind the LtCol? I'm very interested to hear this and awaiting your reply.
-
re wrote it. hes not worth the time.
bush is a coke head and a military deserter.
all the rest is just more of the same.
-
Originally posted by lord dolf vader
all the rest is just more of the same. [/B]
Does this mean youve gotten tired of your own posts?
-
Assuming that all those items are factual our forces should be proud of their accomplishments.
Sorry to disappoint Rip.
-
Originally posted by lord dolf vader
re wrote it. hes not worth the time.
bush is a coke head and a military deserter.
all the rest is just more of the same.
Man you got to come up with some new material:D
-
MrBlack.
Please don't quote Lord dumd arss, it defeats the ignore thingie
He is a dryed up loon and not worth reading any longer. God knows I gave him many chances but "the hate is to strong with this one".
Someday he may grow up and then be worth reading.
Even dmnnexus can have a point every now and again.
Thanks
-
Gunslinger. I am too sensitive too it. No doubt about it.
If I posted a letter from a soldier serving in Iraq that recounted all his disappointments and apprehensions about the campaign and how they are not accomplishing what the White house says they are or what ever,
and followed it up with "Hey you war lovers, happy with what jr has done to this persons life?"
How would people feel? The soldier has earned the right to give his opinion on the issue, but for me to use it as an attack is to hide behind the respect that the soldier has earned.
Attack the soldier thats their on the ground doing his job? Or attack Pongo for using the persons words as an attack when they arent here to defend the words them selves.
(of course I have not such letter, nor know of the existance of such a letter, it is just an oposite example of why Rips second post pissed me off)
Rip serving officers in the miltitary say what they are told to say. They pass on what they are told to pass on. I have no problem with you posting that positive information from the rebuilding side of the war in Iraq. I am interested in discussing why such positive information is not getting out as I am sure it is true to some greater or lesser extent.
But you chose to taint your thread so live with it.
-
Originally posted by Pongo
Rip serving officers in the miltitary say what they are told to say. They pass on what they are told to pass on.
I definately disagree with you on this. Military officers are not told what to say in most cases but told WHAT NOT TO SAY! They are humans. This one her is just telling his Marines some basic facts mixed with some political opinion. I'm not saying all these facts are exactly true BUT the purpose of this letter is to increase moral...NOT to spread political disent
-
"Military deaths from fanatic Nazi's, and Japanese numbered in the thousands and continued for over three years after WWII victory was declared. "
This is a very good point.
-
good post rip.....
have a tendency to forget the good side of things once in a while....
problem is rip.....its costing a whole lotta money.....and people are not blind to that fact.
Bush Jr. goes around asking for money from his ALLIES.....Canada's says OK....we'll lend Iraq 300 million in support for Mr.Bush(since we CANNOT help in Iraq AND Afhganistan).....1 month later.....Bush says NO to Canada for the bidding process on reconstruction.....
sorry, but his dealings in Foriegn Affairs makes him look like a fool.....
If only Bush Sr. didn't leave the shiites hanging in '93....
I'm just trying to make you understand an outsiders POV rip.....
But your post was a good read....and some excellent achievements by the US military.....
let the french comments begin....oh wait a min....let the UN bashing begin....grrrrr......let the slo bashing begin.
Oh and BTW...Americans are still North Americans.:aok
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Why do you feel compelled to change the subject? Is there something threatening to you in this email?
That's a No I have never served in the armed forces then - I take it?
-
Originally posted by SLO
problem is rip.....its costing a whole lotta money.....and people are not blind to that fact.
When Saddam goes on trial, and the world sees the atrocities that he's committed, I want you to ask yourself one question: "Was it worth the cost of money to prevent yet more mass graves?"
Let your conscience speak for you at that time.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Which mass-graves are from atrocities, and which are from the Iran-Iraq war? What was the nature of the atrocities? When were they committed and by whom?
The only mass-graves (edit: not from the war) in Iraq I've read about was a result of the 1991 Sunni uprising which was betrayed by the coalition.
Ever heard of a town called Halabja?
-
Hortlund, don't feed the trolls, there will be plenty of crow coming up in the trial.
-
Pongo, cut Rip some slack. He has had a gun pulled on him 34 times and only crapped himself twice. Back when he was a stripper, a time when patriotism was out of fashion, he had the courage to adopt ‘Captain America’ as his stage name and wear a stars and stripes thong. Even now, he heroically protects his kids from the dangers of the world by denying them access to mind-warping, violence-desensitizing influences like Sonic the Hedgehog while exposing them to good, wholesome entertainment like World War II warfare simulations. I have no doubt that if given the chance Rip would take a bullet for a soldier and, if he lived, come here to tell us about it.
-
Originally posted by Lance
Pongo, cut Rip some slack. He has had a gun pulled on him 34 times and only crapped himself twice. Back when he was a stripper, a time when patriotism was out of fashion, he had the courage to adopt ‘Captain America’ as his stage name and wear a stars and stripes thong. Even now, he heroically protects his kids from the dangers of the world by denying them access to mind-warping, violence-desensitizing influences like Sonic the Hedgehog while exposing them to good, wholesome entertainment like World War II warfare simulations. I have no doubt that if given the chance Rip would take a bullet for a soldier and, if he lived, come here to tell us about it.
:rofl
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Yes Rip, why don't you go and catch a bullet? Be a hero!
WTF does that have to do with the US military achievements in IRAQ......
Kids get to go to school.....
Sick people have medicines when there sick...
they got water to drink....
crops are growing....
so on and so forth....
I don't usually agree with right wing fanatics.....but this was a positive post.
-
Originally posted by Gunslinger
I definately disagree with you on this. Military officers are not told what to say in most cases but told WHAT NOT TO SAY! They are humans. This one her is just telling his Marines some basic facts mixed with some political opinion. I'm not saying all these facts are exactly true BUT the purpose of this letter is to increase moral...NOT to spread political disent
Being told 'what not to say' is being told what you can say.... right?? If one is limited to 'what they can say', they are limited in what they can say... If one is told, 'dont say this', they are being told what to say....
Pongo's reasoning could stand true....
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Hortlund, don't feed the trolls, there will be plenty of crow coming up in the trial.
So are you saying SH will bring WMDs with him to the trial??
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Yes, and I also know it became a battleground in the Iran-Iraq war where Kurdish separatists joined the Iranians. It is still a controversy whether it was the Iraqis or the Iranians who used chemical weapons against the town. The chemical used in that incident (I don't remember which) was primarily used by the Iranians in that war, the Iraqis mainly used a different chemical weapon.
Nice revisionist history. There is no more controversy over Halabja than there are over Auschwiz. Either you have stumbled over a horrible bad webpage in your google-attempts to find info on Halabja, or you get a solid position among the David Irving-crowd.
Never thought you'd sink this low in your attempts to discredit the americans.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Discredit them how?
"Which mass-graves are from atrocities, and which are from the Iran-Iraq war? What was the nature of the atrocities? When were they committed and by whom?
The only mass-graves (edit: not from the war) in Iraq I've read about was a result of the 1991 Sunni uprising which was betrayed by the coalition."
Implying, for some reason that Saddam is not responsible for certain atrocities against his own people.
Here is a tip. Exchange Saddam with Hitler, Iran-Iraq war with German-Soviet war, and atrocities with holocaust, and then maybe you can see what the hell you are saying.
-
Originally posted by Hortlund
Here is a tip. Exchange Saddam with Hitler, Iran-Iraq war with German-Soviet war, and atrocities with holocaust, and then maybe you can see what the hell you are saying.
Wont fit.. Comparing Iran/Iraq war to the Jewish holocaust? There is a difference, last I heard, from folks carring guns to folks taking gas showers....
What mass graves though, really?? Give me 5 'atrocities' commited by SH?? How bout 3....... documented....
The guy is a loser but still, what atrocities?
-
Originally posted by kappa
Wont fit.. Comparing Iran/Iraq war to the Jewish holocaust? There is a difference, last I heard, from folks carring guns to folks taking gas showers....
What mass graves though, really?? Give me 5 'atrocities' commited by SH?? How bout 3....... documented....
The guy is a loser but still, what atrocities?
Comparing the unarmed Kurdish civilians in Halabja to the unarmed jewish civilians during the Holocaust will though, its only the scale that is different.
3 documented:
Halabja
Shiites around Basrah after 91-war
Kurds (2-4 000 villages reportedly were destroyed by Iraqi forces, up to 200 000 Kurds believed tortured, killed).
If you want more details than this, go ahead. These are the first three off the top of my head.
-
Originally posted by kappa
Wont fit.. Comparing Iran/Iraq war to the Jewish holocaust? There is a difference, last I heard, from folks carring guns to folks taking gas showers....
What mass graves though, really?? Give me 5 'atrocities' commited by SH?? How bout 3....... documented....
The guy is a loser but still, what atrocities?
Yea, your right the bodies found with blindfolds still on and shot in the back were armed with AK's and RPG's at the time.:rolleyes:
And it is not hard to tell the difference from a body killed 12 years ago as a solder and buried as say one killed 3 years ago by execution, jezzes watch CSI once.
You guys have so much hate, it is killing your credibility
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
When Saddam goes on trial, and the world sees the atrocities that he's committed, I want you to ask yourself one question: "Was it worth the cost of money to prevent yet more mass graves?"
Let your conscience speak for you at that time.
Typical Repub stance on arocities if you can't make a dollar from genocide use it for propoganda to justify an invasion, just leave out the ugly parts like your collaboration during the act.:aok
Hey it was good for the American economy right Rip :aok
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Halabaja: A battleground, Kurdish rebels joined the Iranians in battle against Iraq. Still, chemical weapons banned by international law were used by both sides so this incident may be the best "card" to use against Hussein in a war crimes trial.
Shiites around Basrah after 91-war: Armed uprising quelled by the Iraqi army. Legal action acording to international law, even the US National Guard has used lethal force against much less armed and violent crowd, to say nothing of an armed uprising.
Kurds in Iraq and Turkey are like Chechens in Russia; rebels and separatists. There has been an ongoing war between the Kurds and the Iraqi and Turkish armies for ages.
heh, suddenly Im understanding what happened when the UN was in Bosnia in general and at Srebrenica in particular...
You are a disgrace.
Lets take a look at one example from the Kurds:
Khorome, an ex-village located 80 kilometers south of the Turkish border. In August 1988 the Iraqi army came to town, raced every village and shot every male person between the ages of 10-70. The women and children were left, alive but without any belongings except for the clothes on their bodies.
Human Rights Watch estimates that Saddam's 1987-1988 campaign of terror against the Kurds killed at least 50,000 and possibly as many as 100,000 Kurdish civilians.
Typical example of something Gscholtz wants to call an ongoing war between separatists and regular army. Kinda like what took place in Bosnia then?
Lets look at 91. According to Gscholz this is legal:
According to Human Rights Watch, "senior Arab diplomats told the London-based Arabic daily newspaper al-Hayat in October [1991] that Iraqi leaders were privately acknowledging that 250,000 people were killed or dissappeared during the uprisings, with most of the casualties in the south."
The British Broadcasting Corp., which showed television footage of the grisly scene, said that at least 3,000 bodies were exhumed. It quoted unidentified human rights groups as saying that the graves could contain 10,000 to 15,000 bodies. Human Rights Watch did not confirm estimates of the number of people buried there.
The BBC said it did not know how or when the victims in the Hilla graves were killed, but said they could have been Shiite Muslims massacred by Iraqi forces after a Shiite uprising against Hussein after the 1991 Persian Gulf War.
Another grave containing more than 1,000 bodies was recently found in Muhammad Sakran village, about 25 miles north of Baghdad, Human Rights Watch said.
Halabja was not a front line town, that is a lie.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Documentation?
Executions for crimes (such as armed uprising) are not illegal. The US still executes criminals. Just because you support the Sunnis or Kurdish cause does not make their actions legal according to Iraqi law. They did wage war on the Iraqi army and government ... somehow I think that would be punishable by death in the US.
I am simply amazed that anyone could use such a rationalization for genocide.
-
So in civil wars it's OK to massacre the civilians?
Just asking; not getting your point, sorry.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Genocide against the Sunnis? Hardly. In fact that would demean the meaning of genocide.
Kent State massacre ... same thing on a much smaller scale except the National Guard were the only ones armed.
And my amazement continues.
Number one, you need to get some facts straight. The rebellious religious faction is the Shiites in the south, not the Sunnis in the middle. Saddam Hussein is a Sunni Muslim (technically), the Sunni's make up about 30 percent of the Iraqi population. The Shiites were the ones that revolted in the South.
Now how you can compare the panicky reaction of about a dozen National Guard troops to the sytematic murder of almost 100 thousand individuals, the draining of their ecosystem, the slaughter of their clerics and the random terror that occured after the 91 uprising is amazing. The attacks on the Kent State protestors was wrong but it wasn't authorized by the leader of the United States. The attacks on the Shiites in the south was ordered by Saddam Hussein, executed by his cronies and resulted in the deaths of thousands, not three or four individuals.
If you want to compare it to something, compare it to Stalin and Lenin's treatment of the Ukranians and White Russians after the end of the Bolshevek revolution. That is a more apt comparision. I am sure you can justify that too.
Geez. I can't believe I am even debating this. I can't believe anyone can somehow apologize for someone like Saddam.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
You're still a fascist, what's new.
[/b] With all due respect GS, Im not the one defending mass murder of civilians...
Documentation?
Documentation? Bosnia was a civil war, but I don't expect you to know the difference.
"During the uprisings" being the operative words here.
[/b]
How about this one:
They started to bring groups of innocent people to this graveyard and began executing them here. Every day, those criminals started executing people at 9:00 a.m. until 5:00 p.m. They brought people here in buses—each group was between 120 and 150 people. They would bring three groups of this size each day.
Before they brought these people, they would bring a bulldozer to dig holes. Military members surrounded the area so no one would come near the place. When they brought the people, they pushed them into the holes with their hands tied and their eyes covered. When they pushed them into the holes, they would start shooting massively. Afterwards, they would bring the bulldozers to bury the people. Then the criminals would prepare for the second and third groups [of victims.] This operation lasted from March 7 until April 6, 1991.27
Or this one
Nasir Khadi Hazim al-Husseini was only twelve years old at the time of the 1991 mass arrest campaign. On March 16, 1991, his twenty-eight-year-old mother Khulud `Abud Naji took Nasir and two other thirteen-year-old relatives, his uncle Muhanad `Abud Naji, and his cousin Muhammad Yassin Muhammad, from their home in the al-Sa`da neighborhood to leave for their grandfather’s house in the Sha’awi neighborhood.
On their way, a soldier stopped the group, asked them where they were going, and accused them of being looters. Nasir’s mother explained that they were just going to their grandfather’s house, but the soldier arrested all of them and took them to a nearby school building: “They put us in a school in a classroom. By the evening, the classroom was filled with people because they kept arresting people.”17
As evening fell, the people gathered in the classroom were taken to the al-Mahawil military base:
They blindfolded us and bound our hands, and then they put us in landcruisers with shaded windows and a bus. We were about twenty-five to thirty people [detained].… They took us to the al-Mahawil military base. Some of us were taken to another area [of the al-Mahawil base]. They put me, my mother, my cousin, and my uncle in a tiny room. In the night of the same day, they brought a fourteen-year-old girl and a thirty-year-old woman to the same room.18
The family spent the night in the tiny room, and received no food since their arrest the prior day. The next morning they were taken for investigation, where high-ranking officers, including a lieutenant-colonel, took down their names, the neighborhood they came from, and similar details. Following the perfunctory investigation, they were taken to a large hall at the al-Mahawil military base, where they were again joined by other detainees:
They took us to a big hall [and] started bringing in people now and then. We stayed there for two days. There were so many people... They were children, women, and men. We were sitting in [family] groups, me with my relatives and the others with their relatives. No one dared to speak to the other groups.19
Toward the end of the second day—the evening of March 18, 1991—the detainees gathered in the big hall were taken outside and lined up in the yard of the compound. “They brought some blankets which they ripped and they tied our hands and blindfolded us with those,” Nasir recalled. “They covered our eyes and put us inside some TATA buses looted from Kuwait. We were between forty-five and fifty people on each bus. It was very crowded, there were two people on each chair.”20
After the detainees were loaded on the buses, they were told that there were some checkpoints on the road, and that if asked, they should say they were going to Baghdad. Nasir, who could see a bit through the blanket covering his eyes, recounted the route taken by the bus:
There was an asphalt road from the door of the military camp. Then we turned off into a remote, dusty dirt road, an agricultural road. We turned off the main road, and I didn’t know where we were going. I was sitting on the bus at the chair near the window. There was an abandoned canal, I was sitting on that side of the bus. … I couldn’t see clearly, but there was a building—later, when I looked [after the executions], it was a brick factory.21
Almost as soon as the buses stopped, the executions began. People were pulled off the buses, thrown in a pre-dug pit, machine-gunned, and then buried with a bulldozer. Nasir told Human Rights Watch how he miraculously survived:
When they started taking us off the bus, some of us began reciting the shahada [Muslim declaration of faith]. My mother told me, “Repeat the shahada, because we are about to die.” I heard the shouting of the children. We grabbed each other’s hands—me, my mother, my cousin, and my uncle. They pulled us, we were all together.
They threw us into the dug-out grave. When I fell down, there were so many bodies underneath me. I layed down on top of them. They started to shoot on us.
There were two [groups of] men. One was taking the people off the bus, and others were shooting at people in the hole.
One of them pulled at my clothes, and said “That one isn’t dead, shoot him.” They shot again, but still I was not shot.
So they gave an order to the bulldozer driver to bury the grave. I was at the edge of the grave. When the shovel came, I spontaneously tried to crawl out. It was sundown now. I crawled to the edge of the grave, and got to a place where the bamboo was on my face and I was able to breathe through it. I heard the man who was standing on the hill instruct the shovel driver to bury us more—he had seen that I was not yet buried—but the driver left the place and didn’t do it.22
After he heard the noises of the vehicles fade away, Nasir crawled out of the mass grave, leaving his dead relatives behind. He made his way to the main al-Hilla-Baghdad road, and met four sympathetic Shi`a Iraqi soldiers who helped him return home.
Since I just know you will be screaming for sources like a good revisionist, here:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/iraq0503/
Its a human rights watch report.
Strange how you can call this an atrocity while praising the Israelis for doing the same thing, albeit on a smaller scale.
[/b]
Yeah, plenty of examples of how Israeli soldiers machine gun palestinian civilians and throw them into mass graves. Sources please.
Halabaja is 7 miles from the Iraq-Iran border, moron.
What I meant was that Halabja was not being defended by Iranians or Kurdish militia at the time of the gas attack.
-
"Khorome, an ex-village located 80 kilometers south of the Turkish border. In August 1988 the Iraqi army came to town, raced every village and shot every male person between the ages of 10-70. The women and children were left, alive but without any belongings except for the clothes on their bodies. "
The difference between that and a B52 strike on the village is what? The B52 kills half the village in a more gender neutral way. And you follow it up with agent orange on the sheep pastures so even if they live the locals will still starve, for generations.
Hortland you have a nasty strategy of lieing and then making anyone that corrects you sound like they are defending Saddam, where in fact we are just pointing out to you your lying or stretching or twisting the truth.
I hope they do kill Sadam, and I wish all that perpetuate such acts were held accountable for them. I hope that if Bush Jr lets the Turks into northern Iraq then he pays the price for that decision. I hope that Bush senior has payed the price for instigating an uprising in Northern Iraq then abandoning the Kurds to thier fate.
-
True, the UN has no mandate to interfere in a civil war.
I think where the difference of opinion is greatest is that, once there, what military force would stand by and allow forces from either side in a civil war to just massacre civilians?
Yah, Yah.. I know. No mandate. Seems simple from your viewing angle.
Just pointing out that a lot of folks don't see it from that angle.
If one is witnessing atrocity, do you just stand and watch or do you act? Should I ask the Dutch Batt?
Bosnia was not Iraq. I agree absolutely.
-
Ok, so the question then is, what is the purpose of the UN if it isn't to interfere in 'civil wars' that result in the deaths of non-combatants.
There is a definition of the killing of non-combatants in places like Bosnia and Iraq. It is called War Crimes. The United States's use of Agent Orange can be debated as a war crime, some may say yes, some may say no but coming into a town that opposes you and killing everyone that doesn't agree with you is a war crime.
When should the UN interfere? Should they have stood on the sidelines like they did in Rwanda or should they have gotten involved like they did in Bosnia. I know they can't be everywhere but when the UN has the ability to stop something like that, even in a civil war setting, when should it act?
If it has no moral mandate to intervene then why was it created. I thought the whole purpose of the UN was to prevent the stuff that happened during WW2, the mass graves, the slaughter of non combatants. Seems like they should be involved.
-
Sounds like a real quagmire Rip. At least it was for some 20+ years. Looks like we're cleaning up the swamp, good post. :aok
-
Originally posted by GScholz
I would not just stand by and watch, however I would also be violating my mandate. Yes you will have to ask Dutch Batt about that.
Well, yeah, I'm pretty sure I'd get involved too. Mandates? Rules were made to be broken. Sometimes, you gotta do what you gotta do.
Now the question becomes "how far away do I have to be before I can look myself in the mirror and say 'there was nothing I could do'"?
A mile? A hundred miles? Across an ocean?
Conscience is a funny thing, isn't it?
-
What part of seeing groups of women and children being shot down by troops is hard to understand?
-
Ah, so as long as it's out of your direct vision nothing needs to be or should be done?
;)
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Genocide against the Sunnis? Hardly. In fact that would demean the meaning of genocide.
Kent State massacre ... same thing on a much smaller scale except the National Guard were the only ones armed.
How does one responed to stuff like this:confused:
-
I put this in the other thread as well about the Iraqis and the UN, but in the case anyone didn't see it I think it's relavent here to.
Article Title: "Separate Realities "
Author: Section: Issues & Insights Date: 12/15/2003
Media: Thousands of Iraqis have marched to condemn terrorism and demand a halt to the violence. We're still waiting for the networks to offer their full reports.
And they're probably waiting, too. But not to report on Iraqis coming together against the loyalist insurgents who are trying to sabotage the construction of a liberated society.
They're likely waiting for a handful of Iraqis to demonstrate against the coalition or march in support of Saddam Hussein.
Now that would be real news, wouldn't it? The anti-insurgent rallies haven't gone totally unnoticed by the media. There has been some light coverage.
Otherwise we would have never known that "5,000 to 10,000 Iraqis tried to send terrorists a cease-and-desist message Wednesday from downtown Baghdad," as a Knight Ridder News Service reporter described it.
Or that 4,000 or so chanted "death to terrorists" in Baghdad on Nov. 28. The Media Research Center tells us the rallies were ignored, though, by two of the major broadcast network news shows while ABC gave it a cursory treatment.
And, as far as we can tell, not a single major daily newspaper had a march story on its front page.
However, should a subsidiary of Halliburton, the former employer of Vice President Dick Cheney, be accused of charging the U.S. government too much for its contract services in Iraq, well, then that's front-page news for The New York Times and Washington Post, and an instant obsession for the broadcast media.
(CBS News anchor Dan Rather suggested that the "overcharges" were evidence of some nasty "war profiteering.") Never mind that this alleged overcharging has nothing to do with Cheney. Forget that it's a dispute between accountants. Don't even consider that nothing criminal or illegal has transpired.
And disregard the fact that Halliburton isn't likely to profit from the "overcharges" and that they were the outcome of Halliburton paying a subcontractor too much for gasoline. Just remember when it's time to vote next fall that in some vague way, Cheney did something wrong.
Frankly, we're a little weary of having to continue to point out that the media are dwelling on the negative and largely dismissing the positive in Iraq.
Yet we understand. Focusing on death and dismemberment and looking for dirty deals while downplaying progress is an effective way to poison public opinion on the war and the Bush administration.
Oddly, the media's inconsistencies have actually been captured by a small corner of the press. In a Dec. 5 dispatch from Baghdad detailing the accomplishments of the Army's Civil Affairs soldiers and regular troops,
Tara Copp of Scripps Howard News Service writes: "What Iraq looks like on TV, and what Iraq looks like for the 130,000 troops living here, sometimes feels like two different realities."
Is there a better description than that? Copp, possibly without knowing it, summarized the entire issue in less than 25 words. But, like the progress Copp was writing about, those words, too, will be sidestepped by the mainstream media.
-
Good Post Rip!!!
Thanks. :aok
-
Well, G, the entire bloody world has stood around with its collective thumb up its collective anal vent while literally millions have been slaughtered in Africa.
I think even you will admit that the media hasn't failed to inform us of that. Or that there's evidence to support what they've said. It's not all mainstream media you know; amnesty international, human rights watch, etc.
Now we have to be very careful, right? I mean, until everyone is dead, we should proceed very slowly. We should all stand around with our thumbs securely buried while we mull this over.
Now the US gets blasted for not righting every single wrong in the world simultaneously whenever we try to right a single wrong at one time.
But, every once in a great while, we get our thumb out and do SOMETHING. We TRY. Sure, we screw up.
Guess that's much worse than being very careful to leave our thumb securely buried though.
-
LOL!
I like the analogy toad:
Being afraid your thumb will stink is not a good reason for leaving it in your ass.
MiniD
-
I think the legions of the African dead would dispute those who claim to be "doing something".
Maybe the food warehouse is being guarded while the slaughter goes on around the corner.. out of sight, where no one needs to feel responsible.
Face it, when there's wholesale bloodshed, the UN doesn't get involved. Yet when it comes time to finally stop the bloodshed, all eyes turn to.......
Yeah, I think you can fill in the blank.
Stinky thumbs and all.
-
Didn't say we'd been to Africa to do anything yet.
Oh, we went along with some UN stuff over there, like Somalia, but those always turn out the same don't they?
When nicely asked to stop killing each other, folks don't seem to listen. And, of course, that's where UN "coercion" ends; I mean, heck, if they won't stop when asked nicely...well, what can you do?
However, you can look at the former Yugoslavia and see what it took to get the outright slaughter stopped. Of course, it wasn't the UN.. it was NATO. Kinda.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
... teachers earn from 12 to 25 times their former salaries.
... doctors salaries are at least eight times what they were under Saddam.
... the Coalition has helped administer over 22 million vaccinations to
Iraq's children.
... foreign journalists aren't on 10-day visas paying mandatory and
extortionate fees to the Ministry of Information for "minders" and other
government spies.
... the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first time to an Iranian -- a
Muslim woman who speaks out with courage for human rights, for democracy and
for peace.
... Iraq is free.
God Bless you all. Have a great Holiday.
Semper Fidelis,
CO
lol
1. 12 -25x bigger salary... umm well ... how many times did prices grow ?
2. 22 mill of vaccinations for children ?
well there live about 21 mil people before war... how many of these 22 mill end up in iraq stocks ?
3. people are free to came and go ? .. hehe if it will be same come and go as you have in US now, its realy golden time now :)
4. how exactly is Bush administration connected with iranian woman, whitch got Nobell price ?
5. to not be able to chose from all developers all over the world, its not freedom, nor free market
any its quite cool that they have all dishes ... they can wash bush on TV instead of Sadam on the walls..... and whats much better, they gonna pay for that
im sorry but i never ever saw any country under occupation, whitch has been free
edit.: and best thing to do is to speak about god in iraqi with m16 in hands :D
-
Originally posted by maslo
lol
1. 12 -25x bigger salary... umm well ... how many times did prices grow ?
2. 22 mill of vaccinations for children ?
well there live about 21 mil people before war... how many of these 22 mill end up in iraq stocks ?
3. people are free to came and go ? .. hehe if it will be same come and go as you have in US now, its realy golden time now :)
4. how exactly is Bush administration connected with iranian woman, whitch got Nobell price ?
5. to not be able to chose from all developers all over the world, its not freedom, nor free market
any its quite cool that they have all dishes ... they can wash bush on TV instead of Sadam on the walls..... and whats much better, they gonna pay for that
im sorry but i never ever saw any country under occupation, whitch has been free
edit.: and best thing to do is to speak about god in iraqi with m16 in hands :D
My 3 month old daughter has had multiple vaccinations already. She will get more as she gets older also. So 22 million vaccinations for Iraq's children is not unrealistic.
The occupation in Iraq will end. When will it end? I don't think anyone knows an exact timetable yet, however progress is being made towards that end.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
If you consider the Shiite (got it right this time) uprising incident a genocide you're diluting the meaning of the word. That would be an affront to those people that have actually been victims of genocide, for instance the Jews, Cambodians, Rwandans and countless other Africans. To compare an armed uprising to the systematic murder of millions is offensive in the extreme.
Umm, no offense but this logical thought pattern could be used to justify a lot of things. The Native American population was within the US borders (just like the Shiites), they were a repressed section of the population that didn't like the 'leadership' in place (just like the Shiites), and they fought back (just like the Shiites). In the end they were slaughtered, their culture was signficantly marginalized and destroyed. I don' t know too many Americans these days that look upon what we did to the Native American population with a lot of pride. I consider it one of our most shameful periods.
I guess that wasn't genocide according to your definition. I consider it according to mine.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
I'm not refuting that attrocities might (and probably were) committed by the Iraqis. But for a trial against Hussein you would need to prove them. Probably not a problem, but still.
[/b] Your point...whatever it was..has been lost several posts ago. What remains is a norwegian ex UN guy, fighting with teeth and claws to defend Saddam Hussain against accusations of mass murder and atrocities.
A person who fully seriously is saying stuff like
Basrah after 91-war: Armed uprising quelled by the Iraqi army. Legal action acording to international law, even the US National Guard has used lethal force against much less armed and violent crowd, to say nothing of an armed uprising.
What you are defending here, was exactly the same action I was quoting eye witness reports from, and survivers tales.
Take a look at what you are defending
Before they brought these people, they would bring a bulldozer to dig holes. Military members surrounded the area so no one would come near the place. When they brought the people, they pushed them into the holes with their hands tied and their eyes covered. When they pushed them into the holes, they would start shooting massively. Afterwards, they would bring the bulldozers to bury the people. Then the criminals would prepare for the second and third groups [of victims.] This operation lasted from March 7 until April 6, 1991.
...
When they started taking us off the bus, some of us began reciting the shahada [Muslim declaration of faith]. My mother told me, “Repeat the shahada, because we are about to die.” I heard the shouting of the children. We grabbed each other’s hands—me, my mother, my cousin, and my uncle. They pulled us, we were all together.
They threw us into the dug-out grave. When I fell down, there were so many bodies underneath me. I layed down on top of them. They started to shoot on us.
There were two [groups of] men. One was taking the people off the bus, and others were shooting at people in the hole.
One of them pulled at my clothes, and said “That one isn’t dead, shoot him.” They shot again, but still I was not shot.
These quotes could be taken from Babi Jar in 1941, but this time they come from the Basrah region in 1991. And your reaction?
Armed uprising quelled by the Iraqi army. Legal action acording to international law
I dont know if you realize that you have lost all credibility here, nor do I know if you care. But right now, you are on the exact same moral level as someone trying to apologize the Nazi massacres of Jews and civilians because there were partisans attacking German supply lines. Its just disgusting, and you should take a 5 minute break and think about what exactly it is you are saying.
http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/mideast/israel.html
Its a human rights watch report. (Nice of you to "legitimize" HRW as a "reliable" source for future discussions on the Israeli/Palestine issue).
[/b]
I'll ask you again. Give me some examples with sources of Israeli soldiers machine gunning palestinian civilians and then throwing them into mass graves.
Because this:
Within three weeks, more than 120 Palestinians were killed and over 4,800 injured in clashes with Israeli security forces that began on September 29. Most of the deaths were the result of excessive, and often indiscriminate, use of lethal force by Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers, police, and border police against unarmed civilian demonstrators, including children.
is not even remotely similar to this:
When they brought the people, they pushed them into the holes with their hands tied and their eyes covered. When they pushed them into the holes, they would start shooting massively. Afterwards, they would bring the bulldozers to bury the people.
I dont expect you to understand that, like I said, you have kinda lost alot of credibility here.
-
Halabja deserves its own post.
Since GS is clearly trying to add his revisionist touch to this story, I felt it would be important to do a "real" post here.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/iraqanfal/ANFAL.htm
The part on Halabja:
The Iraqi counterattack began in the mid-morning of March 16, with conventional airstrikes and artillery shelling from the town of Sayed Sadeq to the north. Most families in Halabja had built primitive air-raid shelters near their homes. Some crowded into these, others into the government shelters, following the standard air-raid drills they had been taught since the beginning of the Iran-Iraq War in 1980. The first wave of air strikes appears to have included the use of napalm or phosphorus. "It was different from the other bombs," according to one witness. "There was a huge sound, a huge flame and it had very destructive ability. If you touched one part of your body that had been burned, your hand burned also. It caused things to catch fire." The raids continued unabated for several hours. "It was not just one raid, so you could stop and breathe before another raid started. It was just continuous planes, coming and coming. Six planes would finish and another six would come."28
Those outside in the streets could see clearly that these were Iraqi, not Iranian aircraft, since they flew low enough for their markings to be legible. In the afternoon, at about 3:00, those who remained in the shelters became aware of an unusual smell. Like the villagers in the Balisan Valley the previous spring, they compared it most often to sweet apples, or to perfume, or cucumbers, although one man says that it smelled "very bad, like snake poison." No one needed to be told what the smell was.
The attack appeared to be concentrated in the northern sector of the city, well away from its military bases--although these, by now, had been abandoned. In the shelters, there was immediate panic and claustrophobia. Some tried to plug the cracks around the entrance with damp towels, or pressed wet cloths to their faces, or set fires. But in the end they had no alternative but to emerge into the streets. It wasgrowing dark and there were no streetlights; the power had been knocked out the day before by artillery fire. In the dim light, the people of Halabja could see nightmarish scenes. Dead bodies--human and animal--littered the streets, huddled in doorways, slumped over the steering wheels of their cars. Survivors stumbled around, laughing hysterically, before collapsing. Iranian soldiers flitted through the darkened streets, dressed in protective clothing, their faces concealed by gas masks. Those who fled could barely see, and felt a sensation "like needles in the eyes." Their urine was streaked with blood.29
What do the Iraqis themselves say? This is from an Iraqi witness:
"ALI HASSAN AL-MAJID in his role as head of the Ba'ath Northern Command...held a meeting with those pilots who would undertake the mission. After the meeting ALI HASSAN AL-MAJID returned to the area HQ of the 1st Corps...ALI HASSAN AL-MAJID ordered the pilots to launch a chemical strike on the area of Halabja."
ALI HASSAN AL-MAJID is perhaps better known under his English nickname "Chemical Ali". This quote is from the material being gathered for the upcoming trials in Iraq against the old regime.
So...so far we have a Human Rights Watch report, we have Iranian and Iraqi witnesses...but we also have...
ta taaa
Kurdhis eye witnesses:
Hewa, a university student:
Survived by covering his face with a wet cloth and taking to the mountains around the city. He says that Iraqi warplanes followed, dropping more chemical bombs. "I got some gas in my eyes and had trouble breathing. You always wanted to vomit and when you did, the vomit was green.15 He says he passed "hundreds" of dead bodies. Those around him died in a number of ways, suggesting a combination of toxic chemicals. Some "just dropped dead." Others "died of laughing." Others took a few minutes to die, first "burning and blistering" or "coughing up green vomit." Journalists noted that the lips of many corpses had turned blue.
Unknown:
No Pasdaran nor Peshmargan were killed. The Iranian soldiers had left on the day before or on the morning of the massacre. The Peshmargan continued to surround the city. Some had gas masks.
We ran over to the basement on the opposite side of the street to take cover. Half an hour later the Iraqi planes came back from all directions - there must have been at least twenty of them, believe me - and in a few minutes Halabja was in ruins. Shortly afterwards we smelt gas. It was just like the smell of garlic. Some of us ran to get some water and we gave the others wet towels and clothes to put over their faces.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
So the town was defended by Iranians and Kurdish militia in contrast to what you first posted:
[/b]
No, the Iranians had left the town the day before. Kurdish militia was positioned outside the town in more tactical locations (hills presumably).
So Stephen C. Pelletiere was right when he concluded:
No, you obviously did not read what I wrote in my post. There are several eye-witnessess who saw Iraqi aircraft drop the gas bombs. But not only that, there are Iraqi witnessess who testify that Chemical Ali gave the order to bomb Halabja with gas.
Against that you come up with some retarded quote by Stephen C. Pelletiere who claims to have read a classified report that blames the Iranians...
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Ok so you dismiss the findings of the CHIEF political analyst on IRAQ during the IRAN-IRAQ WAR, and claim that the town was NOT a frontline town in the war, and that the Iranians and Kurds did NOT defend the town, and that the presumed Iraqi chemical attack was aimed at the Kurdish civilian population and NOT the hostile forces fighting in the area.
Ok, I think I'll leave it at that. Good night.
Do that. And reconsider your position.
And not only is your parting "analysis" off on 4 points out of 5, you are attempting in your parting shot to win the argument with some über-lame "my source was the chief political anlysist"-argument.
Let me just say this: MY sources in that post SAW the aircrafts who dropped the bombs...or they were present when Chemical Ali ORDERED the gas bombings...Do you think your chief political analysist saw those planes too? Or do you think he was present as those orders were given?
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Was the town a "frontline town"? Yes or no. You have claimed "no" earlier.
[/b]
Yes
Was the town a contested area? Yes or no. You have claimed "no" earlier.
[/b]
Yes (and I dont think I have said no on that one before)
Was the town defended by the Iranians and/or Kurdish militia? Yes or no. You have claimed "no" earlier.
[/b]
Yes and No. The town was defended by Kurdish militia, but these troops were positioned outside the town. In the town itself there were no military troops.
If the Iraqis counterattack like your eyewitness said, would it not be logical that the town must be occupied by hostile forces for the Iraqis to COUNTERATTACK? Yes or no. You have claimed "no" earlier.
[/b]
The Iranians was in the middle of an offensive in the region. The previous days had seen Iraqi positions fall east of Halabja. Two days before the gas attack, the town fell to the Iranians. The Iranians withdrew from the town the next day in preparation for the Iraqi counterattack (presumably seeking more easily defended terrain to the east). Meanwhile Kurdish militia had been operating in the area all along, and they remained in their positions outside the town in the surrounding hills. I dont know if that is a yes or no though.
Do you believe that the Iraqi chemical attack (assuming it was the Iraqis) was aimed at the civilian population rather than the hostile forces in that area (whom were also using chemical weapons)? Yes or no. You have claimed "yes" earlier.
Yes.
If the Iraqi gas attack was part of any kind of military counterattack operation, it should have been followed by an advance of ground forces. As it was, the Iraqis pulled back from Halubja, allowing the Iranians to capture it. Then Iraq plastered Halubja with gas. Then nothing happened for several weeks. Then the Iraqis launched a conventional counterattack, recapturing the city.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Immediately occupying territory you have saturated with deadly chemicals is rarely a good military decision.
Wasting expensive WMD on civilians you can easily slaughter later if you so wished instead of using it on the hostile forces currently on the offensive seems like a very unsound strategy.
Once again we must agree to disagree. Good night (finally).
Some chemical agents persist for long periods of time, others disipate rather quickly. Also if your troops have chemcial suits, occupying territory you have just slammed with chemical weapons is no problem at all.
*If* the chemical weapons were aimed at the civilians, what better cover than the *fog of war*. Later you could simply claim you thought your enemy was in the town.
The Shiite deaths Hortlund is pointing to are CIVILIAN deaths, not the deaths of rebels. After the Shiite uprising was put down, thousands of CIVILIANS were murdered.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
When Saddam goes on trial, and the world sees the atrocities that he's committed, I want you to ask yourself one question: "Was it worth the cost of money to prevent yet more mass graves?"
Let your conscience speak for you at that time.
The unfortunate thing about trials is that both sides get to present evidence.
I wonder is Sadam will play his "go ahead and invade Kuwait" tape?
I wonder is he will have testimony on counter insurgency aid and training that was provided by US military advisors?
I wonder if he will provide testimony on US supplies and insturctions on the use of chemical weapons?
I wonder is he will show footage of acts taken against the Iraqi resistance? Detention without trial of people in gauntanimo? State assasinations by Isreal, Lebanese car bombings by US goverment officials. Iranian air liners shot down in Iranian air space by US navy cruisers. etc etc etc.
It wouldnt exaclty be nueremburg. There is lots of dirt to go arround in the world even sorting out the truth from the lies that he would tell could be pretty confusing for some of the white hat guys in the world.
Wonder if he can afford OJs lawyers?
-
Originally posted by Pongo
The unfortunate thing about trials is that both sides get to present evidence.
I wonder is Sadam will play his "go ahead and invade Kuwait" tape?
I wonder is he will have testimony on counter insurgency aid and training that was provided by US military advisors?
I wonder if he will provide testimony on US supplies and insturctions on the use of chemical weapons?
I wonder is he will show footage of acts taken against the Iraqi resistance? Detention without trial of people in gauntanimo? State assasinations by Isreal, Lebanese car bombings by US goverment officials. Iranian air liners shot down in Iranian air space by US navy cruisers. etc etc etc.
It wouldnt exaclty be nueremburg. There is lots of dirt to go arround in the world even sorting out the truth from the lies that he would tell could be pretty confusing for some of the white hat guys in the world.
Wonder if he can afford OJs lawyers?
He'll be tried in Iraq. The issues won't be about what you are insinuating the US has done. They'll be about about the many men, women, and children he murdered and tortured in his own country and the crimes he commited against his neighbors.
-
Originally posted by Pongo
The unfortunate thing about trials is that both sides get to present evidence.
I wonder is Sadam will play his "go ahead and invade Kuwait" tape?
[/b]
You think he was carrying it with him in that hole?
I wonder is he will have testimony on counter insurgency aid and training that was provided by US military advisors?
I wonder if he will provide testimony on US supplies and insturctions on the use of chemical weapons?
I wonder is he will show footage of acts taken against the Iraqi resistance? Detention without trial of people in gauntanimo? State assasinations by Isreal, Lebanese car bombings by US goverment officials. Iranian air liners shot down in Iranian air space by US navy cruisers. etc etc etc.
[/b]
He will proably say alot of things...just like he has in the past. Lies naturally, but people like you will fall over themselves in their attempts to use his lies to tarnish the US. "Saddam said this or that...clearly the US is the devil".
Why on earth would he start yapping about Iranian airliners shot down by US cruisers? In what way would that be relevant in the trial against Saddam Hussein? Or the Israeli assassinations? Or the "Lebanese car bombings"? or Gitmo?
"Yes, your honor, I know Im being accused of crimes against humanity here...but in 1985, the US blew up a CAR..in LEBANON..clearly Im innocent."
It wouldnt exaclty be nueremburg. There is lots of dirt to go arround in the world even sorting out the truth from the lies that he would tell could be pretty confusing for some of the white hat guys in the world.
Wonder if he can afford OJs lawyers?
No, actually its quite easy to spot his lies. What WILL be confusing though, is how you guys will take his word for gospel. Like you always do when someone says something bad about Bush or the US.
Links between Al-Q and Iraq? I want at least twelve eye-witnesses who saw Atta and Saddam standing bent over a map pointing at the WTC. But these witnessess has to be approved by us, so we can make sure they are not lying. They can not have any criminal record
Link between Haliburton and Bush? I heard some guy say on teh TV that after his presidency, Bush would be elected CO of Haliburton if they got the Iraqi contracts...and THEY GOT THE CONTRACTS..clearly it is true! Besides 9-11 was staged by Bush and the neocons so they could invade Afghanistan and build a pipeline...and it was a cruise missle that hit the Pentagon, and the airliner that hit WTC was shooting rockets from its wings before it crashed. Some French guy says it is so! What more evidence could you want.
-
Thats all just babble hortland. You say that "I" would need a rediculous level of proof to accept that Iraq was involved in the WTC.
The truth is that you have accepted Iraq was involved with absolutly NO proof.
You say I accept links between Bush and varios entities with out any proof, but the proof is indeed there and not even contested. The vice president was the CEO of Harlibuton. No frothing from you can undue that. What that means as far as the billions of no tender contracts that Halibutron has recieved from the war is open to interpretation, but the fact of the association is not.
The interesting thing about a Trial of Sadam is not that he would say anything new. Its just that those things will hit the main stream media for the first time. Many are undeniable and very troubleing.(except by you and your ilk)
He is obviosly going to be charged with invading other countries. He will be entiteld to defend him self on that.
He will be charged with actions agianst the Kurds and others. He will be able to introduce evidence that other coutries including the US do the same or worse as a matter of practice in anti insurgencey campaigns
He will be charged with torture and be entitled to show that it is again a matter of state perogitive to torture. A canadian was tortured in Saudi Jails for over a year.
Is he guilty and will he be convicted. Yes but his defence will be interesting and painful to some.
That was my point, not that I love the man or worship him or hate the states, open your mind.
The US is a country of 300 million people of many different bents and asperations. They have a violent history that makes good reading. But they are not angles or devils. To a certain extent they should not be casting stones at others actions.
They have been on the forfront of insurgency and counter insurgency warfare arround the world for 100 years. From the philipines to afganistan(on both sides) they have busted quite a few eggs in that time and they know more than anyone what it takes to defeat or win an insurgency campaign.
Every state in that region tortures its people. Every single one of them.
-
Originally posted by Pongo
Thats all just babble hortland. You say that "I" would need a rediculous level of proof to accept that Iraq was involved in the WTC.
The truth is that you have accepted Iraq was involved with absolutly NO proof.
[/b]
Point me to the post by me where I say that Iraq was involved in 9-11. If you cant, will you admit you were wrong, or will you try to change the subject?
He is obviosly going to be charged with invading other countries. He will be entiteld to defend him self on that.
He will be charged with actions agianst the Kurds and others. He will be able to introduce evidence that other coutries including the US do the same or worse as a matter of practice in anti insurgencey campaigns
[/b]
You have precious little knowledge about how these trials..or indeed any trial work. All you have said here will be dismissed in two seconds as irrelevant. If he starts a sentence saying "but other countries did..." he will be cut off by the judge. Just like any defendant on a rape trial wont get very far on a "yes, I raped her, but last year, another guy raped another girl, so clearly Im innocent"-defence.
He will be charged with torture and be entitled to show that it is again a matter of state perogitive to torture. A canadian was tortured in Saudi Jails for over a year.
Is he guilty and will he be convicted. Yes but his defence will be interesting and painful to some.
[/b]
Nope, it will only be painful to the likes of you because he will not be allowed to stand and spew irrelevant BS to a media circus.
The US is a country of 300 million people of many different bents and asperations. They have a violent history that makes good reading. But they are not angles or devils. To a certain extent they should not be casting stones at others actions.
They have been on the forfront of insurgency and counter insurgency warfare arround the world for 100 years. From the philipines to afganistan(on both sides) they have busted quite a few eggs in that time and they know more than anyone what it takes to defeat or win an insurgency campaign.
[/b]
Thats all just babble Pongo.
Every state in that region tortures its people. Every single one of them.
And every single state in that region is a moslem state. Odd huh...Islam being a religion of peace I mean...
-
Well said Pongo.
Come the 2004 elections I'm going to enter your handle in the write-in slot on the ballot. " Pongo for Prez!"
You're far more literate than the bozo in office now and I cannot stomache the idea of voting for any of the losers being tendered by the two predominant US political institutions, er, "party's."
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Kinda quiet out there, Nexus? Any of the Bush bashers want to comment?
Well I will, I'm still critical of the administrations failure to get a new Iraqi Gov't up and running, though I could see how its not a very secure place to do so at the moment. Gotta clean it up first.
Haven't been on the boards.
WTG Marines!
The credit here goes to the US Armed Forces and the State Department - not Bush.
Bush is a liar and a goat fornicator!
Bush has made every attempt to break US and international law... and undermind the US Constitution - contrary to his oath of office.
"Bush does not play well with others." Note from his school teacher.
Sorry... had to get that out of my system! Ahhhh!
I feel better now! :rofl
Oh by the way... none of this was done with the money given to Haliburton - they're still pumping oil into their pockets while they plunder the public coffers.
Do the research... the majority of that work - was done by charity organizations and by the Iraqi people.
-
I wondered why you were talking such noncense hortland. You think this will be like a rape trial. No it will not. You are holding the whole Bathist regime responsible for crimes against humanity. In order to do so you have to establish that acts were illegal. It is not illegal to invade other coutries obviosly as the US invaded Iraq didnt it.
It is not illegal to defend your country against an insurgency.
Its not illegal to destroy the houses of insurgents as the US has done just that.
Your trying to fit the accused crimes into a mold that will make you comfortable. An international tribunal would allow him to establish the norm for the situation his country was in. How far he had strayed from that norm would be the issue.
No need to continue discussing this one. If you cant even admit the possiblility that the man will be given a fair trial or that if he was then it could get embarrasing for certain countries.
-
Originally posted by Westy
Well said Pongo.
Come the 2004 elections I'm going to enter your handle in the write-in slot on the ballot. " Pongo for Prez!"
You're far more literate than the bozo in office now and I cannot stomache the idea of voting for any of the losers being tendered by the two predominant US political institutions, er, "party's."
Presidents need to be visionaries. I am just a nit picking problem solver at the best of time.
-
Originally posted by Pongo
I wondered why you were talking such noncense hortland. You think this will be like a rape trial. No it will not. You are holding the whole Bathist regime responsible for crimes against humanity. In order to do so you have to establish that acts were illegal. It is not illegal to invade other coutries obviosly as the US invaded Iraq didnt it.
It is not illegal to defend your country against an insurgency.
Its not illegal to destroy the houses of insurgents as the US has done just that.
[/b]
You are oversimplifying. Look at the current Milosevic trial if you want to get some sort of understanding as to how this works. It is almost exactly like a rape trial, that is, the core mechanisms of a normal trial is all there. The crimes against humanity is already listed and defined, no real need to establish what acts were illegal. It most certainly is illegal to invade other nations, with some notable exceptions. Problem is that those laws only really apply to some countries. So for example, the US can invade pretty much anyone at will. Anyone having a problem with that can take it up with the US. Or they could try to invade the US and capture the president and move him to the Hauge for a war crimes trial. It is illegal to defend your country against insurgency if you violate the laws of war while you do it. Much like GScholz, you are drifiting into a very odd area right now. Gscholz ended up screaming at everyone in his defense of the Iraqi massacres of Shiite moslems around Basrah, I wonder if you are heading in the same direction.
Your trying to fit the accused crimes into a mold that will make you comfortable. An international tribunal would allow him to establish the norm for the situation his country was in. How far he had strayed from that norm would be the issue.
[/b]
No, you simply dont understand what you are talking about here. *shrug* Im sorry but that is the way it is. You will not accept this of cource, but I really dont know how else to put it. An international tribuneral will not allow him to establish "a norm" for his nation in whatever situation it was in. It doesnt work that way. Nuremberg is pretty clear on how it works. Some stuff is illegal and will get you punished, no matter what kind of situation you were in.
No need to continue discussing this one. If you cant even admit the possiblility that the man will be given a fair trial or that if he was then it could get embarrasing for certain countries.
No, go ahead and slither away. Ive never said that he wont get a fair trial. Of cource he will. It will not be as embarrassing for the US as you hope, simply because SH will not be allowed to rave at will about whatever topic he sees fit.
-
Well we have both slithered our opinions on it. Lets see what happens.