Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman on December 18, 2003, 01:47:25 PM
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20031218/ts_nm/security_padilla_dc
It's about time.
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2:1... and it's not over yet. That one will go higher.
I wonder if it would have even been an issue if they'd arrested him in pakistan.
MiniD
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"Where, as here, the President's power as Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces and the domestic rule of law intersect, we conclude that clear congressional authorization is required for detentions of Americans on American soil...."
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I agree with this completely. It is a wonderful expression of american ideals, however I consider the american justice system an abstract failure and believe that a military tribunal would provide a much higher level of justice regarding this case. American or not.....
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I'd like to see him tried for treason and hung.
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He needs to be charged or released, this was one of my biggest problems with the Bush admin. This guy as scummy as he is, is a US citizen, and his rights where being violated.
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GtoRA2: This guy as scummy as he is
Supposedely scummy - not even "allegedely", becasue there were no allegations made to the court of law about his scumminess.
If we were throwing people into military brig just on the president press-secretary' assertion of scumminess to the press, all democratic politicians would be there by now.
It's not just his rights that are being violated but our rights as well to have a constitutonal government process.
miko
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I have to agree on the release on this guy. Either charge him and try him or cut him loose. If there is enough evidence then go for it. If not, then follow the constitutional mandates for that IS the sign of a democracy.
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I need to add that "dirty bomb" is nothing but a horror-tale invented by illiterate journalists to scare uneducated public.
It's next to impossible to make a "bomb" that will be able to kill anybody with radiation.
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Originally posted by Boroda
I need to add that "dirty bomb" is nothing but a horror-tale invented by illiterate journalists to scare uneducated public.
It's next to impossible to make a "bomb" that will be able to kill anybody with radiation.
An attack with radioactive material could poison a big chunk of land for decades. The 'bomb' element is just for dispersal. In theory it is an attack on the economy rather than on life. Though people who are close to the source would probably be at very high risk of cancer.
ra
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If we were throwing people into military brig just on the president press-secretary' assertion of scumminess to the press, all democratic politicians would be there by now.
patients, I'm sure Bush has people trying to work out an angle on that.
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Originally posted by Boroda
I need to add that "dirty bomb" is nothing but a horror-tale invented by illiterate journalists to scare uneducated public.
It's next to impossible to make a "bomb" that will be able to kill anybody with radiation.
Disagree with little or no knowledge of which you speak, but the fact remains, its easy, its cheap, and the material is very accessible, or you can continue to bury your head in the sand and not listen to Scientists around the world who agree it is very much a clear and present danger.
ref:
Director of the Strategic Security Project, Federation of American Scientists, report (http://discuss.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/zforum/02/nation_levi071802.htm)
Scientists conference, searching for ways to head off the threat of simple weapons that spread radiation and chaos-report (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/11/attack/main543525.shtml)
I also have first hand information on how hospitals have made changes to the security of transporting nuclear material and its waste.
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Just for curiosity. How does one make an effective dirty bomb? Take X amount of solid radioactive waste and wrap it around 1000 kg:s of TNT? What is the dispersion scenario in such event, how far will the solid radioactive materials travel?
Where can you aquire lots of highly radioactive materials, how to store them and how to transport them without being noticed?
Also, i have understood, that radioactive waste is life threatening only when ingested or you being exposed to the rays for prolonged perioids.
And im not defending this guy, he should be hanged.
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All American people of Middle-Eastern origin should be rounded up and put into internment camps. For our safety.
h
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Originally posted by Tuomio
Just for curiosity. How does one make an effective dirty bomb? Take X amount of solid radioactive waste and wrap it around 1000 kg:s of TNT? What is the dispersion scenario in such event, how far will the solid radioactive materials travel?
The dispersion of such radioactive material depends on the direction and intensity of the wind. 1 grain of radioactive material say, from depleted material coming from a hospital X-ray area, inhaled, is lethal within approx. 3 days, depending on the age and health of the individual (This is off the top of my bald head on a documentary that aired on TV recently.) It is not so much the area that it covers that poses the threat, its the clean up and future habitation of an area that has been exposed to a dirty bomb that concerns scientists.(See quote below with the link) With no wind, an area 1 mile in diameter would be considered "Contaminated" with convention explosives and radioactive material that amounts to roughly 5 lbs of "Cesium", a commonly used radioactive material used in hospitals and manufacturing industrys alike.
Where can you aquire lots of highly radioactive materials, how to store them and how to transport them without being noticed?
Alot of radioactive materials is not needed, and it does not have to be "highly radioactive" to be lethal to humans. Depleted radioactive materials such as those found in 30mm load in the A-10 can be hazardous. Speaking for the level 1 trauma unit my wife works in, these depleted sources after their useful life are identifed with the proper labels within a lead case. They since changed the procedure for the transportation of such material, and the security clearances of those who do so.
Also, i have understood, that radioactive waste is life threatening only when ingested or you being exposed to the rays for prolonged perioids.
Radiological attacks constitute a credible threat. Radioactive materials that could be used for such attacks are stored in thousands of facilities around the US, many of which may not be adequately protected against theft by determined terrorists. Some of this material could be easily dispersed in urban areas by using conventional explosives or by other methods.
While radiological attacks would result in some deaths, they would not result in the hundreds of thousands of fatalities that could be caused by a crude nuclear weapon. Attacks could contaminate large urban areas with radiation levels that exceed EPA health and toxic material guidelines.
Materials that could easily be lost or stolen from US research institutions and commercial sites could contaminate tens of city blocks at a level that would require prompt evacuation and create terror in large communities even if radiation casualties were low. Areas as large as tens of square miles could be contaminated at levels that exceed recommended civilian exposure limits. Since there are often no effective ways to decontaminate buildings that have been exposed at these levels, demolition may be the only practical solution. If such an event were to take place in a city like New York, it would result in losses of potentially trillions of dollars.
http://www.fas.org/faspir/2002/v55n2/dirtybomb.htm
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
[B It is not so much the area that it covers that poses the threat, its the clean up and future habitation of an area that has been exposed to a dirty bomb that concerns scientists. With no wind, an area 1 mile in diameter would be considered "Contaminated" with convention explosives and radioactive material that amounts to roughly 5 lbs of depleted Uranium powder.
But there is this problem with intensity. When you have only small amounts of stuff thrown over an big area, the effects will be next to zero. Its another thing what the officials consider as being "contaminated" and how long it would be labelled as such.
Depleted uranium is not dangerous because its radioactive, but because its heavy metal. Just like lead. And i have read studies that claim lead dust being more hazardous than equal amounts of DU dust when inhaled.
Does materials from x-ray projectors act the same way? Im not claiming that dirty bombs would not be dangerous, its just that the amount of work that has to be done for building one does not yield the same impact than for example bioweapon would. Its overhyped.
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DU toxisity is roughly the same as lead, plus any residual radioactivety.
the thing about a dirty bomb isn't that you are exposed to radiation and then leave the area. you actually take in radioactive materials into your system, these materials continue to give you 'dose' until they are depleted (not in your lifetime) or you pass them through your system (some will pass some won't, small particles breathed in are likely to be a peminent thing constantly giving you radiation)
it's not all in solid form either, there are solutions and gasses, solutions making it to groundwater, gases vented into the wind.
the amount of effort reqquired is exactly why they are such a threat. the effort is very little, no more high tech then putting an m-80 in someones trashcan, just on a grander scale.
as to where they could get the waste, it's everywhere, hospitals, construction sites, a couple hundred square miles in eastern washington.
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I suppose you could dismantle a few thousand fire alarms... they have small amounts of radioactive material in them.. lol
You guys worried about dirty bombs have just bought into the media 'scare'... I mean, why?? No, really, why would you need a 'dirty bomb'?? Radioactive materials can be cleaned... If its a large bomb, as already stated, the disspursment would nullify much of it..
Compare a small 'dirty bomb' to a bomb such as Oklahoma City.. Which do you think would make a bigger point??
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Average lethal radiation dose is 600R in a short period of time. Immediate dose that causes "death under the ray" is 20000R (twenty thousand Rentgen).
IIRC immediate dose that causes irrecoverable illness is ~300-400R.
This is extremely huge quantity. You can get it in a reactor hot zone, or at the epicentre of a nuclear explosion several minutes after it happened.
Just remember: the only people who died in Chernobyl catastrophe were the firemen who extinguished fire in the destroyed hot zone literately with their boots. They were walking on burning heat-emitting elements without even wearing insulated chemical defence suits.
Human is a very endurable animal. Only rats, roaches and hens can survive bigger doses.
That scientists are afraid of chaos and panic that can be caused my radiation sources mostly because of a radiophobia, carefully bred and planted into the brains of uneducated people by the media. In this case it's easier to leech funds on fighting what "everyone" is afraid of then to try educating people. Educated people are dangerous ;)
I don't know about how it goes in the US, but decontamination is a routine procedure, and should not cause any problems in a country that has developed a certain level of civil defence structures.
Also, JFYI: small doses of radiation are good for your health.
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Compare a small 'dirty bomb' to a bomb such as Oklahoma City.. Which do you think would make a bigger point??
the consept of a dirty bomb would be the oklahoma city bomb and fill all of the extra space in the truck with waste.
Boroda, the imediate threat to life is about where you state it. but that doesn't mean it won't kill you next year or 5 years from now. every year they are finding the damage is worse than previously thought.
I read the curent regs this past summer and they allow 1/5th of the amount of exposure per year as I was allowed to take in 2 months just 13 years before.
and this is just speaking of exposure, not contamination, 2 completely different subjects.
exposure is radioactive energy passing through you, contamination is putting the source inside your body and continually taking exposure from that source until it either passes though your system or depletes.
and unless you are talking about sunshine, no amount of radiation is 'good for you'
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Guys, this is meaningless, the reaction of the public is what would cause the problem. We have a building in Boca Raton (about 1.2 hours south of me) that is worth over 3 mil. that is still unused due to the Anthrax attack nearly three years ago. Of course the building has been declared safe but no one wants to go near it.
An attack on say the city of New York could easily contaminate several dozen blocks with radioactive materials, sure you could after a massive clean up call it safe (I believe some material could linger in places waiting to be stirred up by a storm or pigeon).
The question is would you live in the area, let your children play in the park, let you wife (pregnant) work in these buildings?
The area would be a ghost town for 30 years or more due to the public terror (get it terror you don't have to kill to couse terror).
The cost and shut down due to the Anthrax was huge and killed what 4 or 5 people?
This is the danger not the actual blast and spread that would kill less then 100 or so.
I will quote Ben Franklin "He who gives up liberty for security has and deserves neither" I agree with this!!
We are a land of laws and no one is above the law, I we give up freedom then they win. As in our court system better to let ten guilty go free the convict an innocent man.
We are on the edge of a slippery slope here, we must tread carefully.
my .02
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Originally posted by Horn
All American people of Middle-Eastern origin should be rounded up and put into internment camps. For our safety.
h
nice,
is that part of your constitution too ?
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Just sillyness... Perhaps the scare would send some away.. But its just hype...
Personnaly I'd worry more about Mesothelioma than radioactive materials..
I mean we can ALREADY say 2 dirty bombs have been exploded in america... Im sure the amounts of Asbestos released from OK city and the trade tower would be far more than any 'dirty bomb'... Asbestos is a heavy metal as well .....
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Originally posted by Saintaw
nice, is that part of your constitution too ?
The law was just recently (70's) taken off the books -- as no one could EVER think of doing it again--like we did to the Japanese.
But we seem to be doing it again, nevertheless.....
h
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Kappa,
Those are 2 differant situations. Asbestos must be inhaled to be a problem. Radioactive materials are a hazard outside the body and the dosage is cumulative. Just because you don't get 2000 rads in a day doesn't mean that exposure over a period of time won't be a threat to your life. Twenty rads a day will add up over time and if the material has a long half life may render the property uninhabitable for decades unless they can somehow clean up the area and return it to mere background (normal) radiation condition.
FWIW I agree that asbestos IS a problem but thankfully has been recognized and steps are being taken to reduce the amount used around people. Dying of lung disease ain't pretty and I've watch family members suffer through it until they passed away. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
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Originally posted by Tuomio
But there is this problem with intensity. When you have only small amounts of stuff thrown over an big area, the effects will be next to zero. Its another thing what the officials consider as being "contaminated" and how long it would be labelled as such.
Depleted uranium is not dangerous because its radioactive, but because its heavy metal. Just like lead. And i have read studies that claim lead dust being more hazardous than equal amounts of DU dust when inhaled.
Does materials from x-ray projectors act the same way? Im not claiming that dirty bombs would not be dangerous, its just that the amount of work that has to be done for building one does not yield the same impact than for example bioweapon would. Its overhyped.
See my edit on the Uranium powder, I meant Cesium, and read the scientific analysis I linked.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Kappa,
Those are 2 differant situations. Asbestos must be inhaled to be a problem. Radioactive materials are a hazard outside the body and the dosage is cumulative. Just because you don't get 2000 rads in a day doesn't mean that exposure over a period of time won't be a threat to your life. Twenty rads a day will add up over time and if the material has a long half life may render the property uninhabitable for decades unless they can somehow clean up the area and return it to mere background (normal) radiation condition.
FWIW I agree that asbestos IS a problem but thankfully has been recognized and steps are being taken to reduce the amount used around people. Dying of lung disease ain't pretty and I've watch family members suffer through it until they passed away. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
Rad elements are leathel outside the body in very large quanities... Asbestos dosage is cumulative as well... 8)
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
Boroda, the imediate threat to life is about where you state it. but that doesn't mean it won't kill you next year or 5 years from now. every year they are finding the damage is worse than previously thought.
I read the curent regs this past summer and they allow 1/5th of the amount of exposure per year as I was allowed to take in 2 months just 13 years before.
and this is just speaking of exposure, not contamination, 2 completely different subjects.
exposure is radioactive energy passing through you, contamination is putting the source inside your body and continually taking exposure from that source until it either passes though your system or depletes.
and unless you are talking about sunshine, no amount of radiation is 'good for you'
Well, after an explosion of "dirty bomb", if you are not killed by the detonation, all you have to do is to use your handkerchief as a filter and try to get away from the place ASAP.
Personal decontamination will mean taking good shower. Maybe shaving your body hair. Every standard Army medical kit contains Potassium Iodide as an anti-radiation (anti-contamination?) pills. You can get it in any drug-store here as well. Contamination is dangerous when you have to work/fight at the "hot zone" for a significant amount of time and can't get cleaned or withdraw.
Decontamination of the place will include carefull washing of the streets/walls, removing the upper soil layer and the trees/grass. Closed windows and doors will protect your home from being contaminated from inside. It's easy.
Chemical attack is much more dangerous. Some agents can't be stopped even by insulated suits and closed-circle oxygen gas-masks. You can't simply wash away the mustard gas from your skin, and during the last 85 years they invented so many poisons that mustard gas is nothing compared to them.
As for radiation being good for your health - believe me, I work at Biochemical Physics Institute, Russian Academy of Science, and my former department worked on small doses problem.
All this "dirty bomb" hype is just a scarecrow, created using basic rules: people are afraid of the unknown, and the mysterious radiation danger is extremely hard to understand, also connected to the common fear of nuclear weapons. 90% of the people can't explain what makes radiation so dangerous and what is it's "killing mechanism".
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Well, after an explosion of "dirty bomb", if you are not killed by the detonation, all you have to do is to use your handkerchief as a filter and try to get away from the place ASAP.
I think this stratagy was implemented right after "duck and cover" went out of style.
most handkerchiefs are not rated HEPA-filter, and would deffinatly not be up to the job, any particles that passed through it would likely be small enough to be perminantly lodged in the lungs and with you for life.
I've been de-con'd for rad-contamination, it aint pretty, not that easy and it doesn't get everything. and tomorrow they'll find out that what you breathed in today is worse than they thought.
I was lucky and was having a headcold at the time, all my contamination managed to get hung up in my nose. try being stripped and having three guys hold you down while some rad-tech swabs out your sinusus with a 6" q-tip. it gives a whole new meaning to "permisable exposure levels"
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Originally posted by Boroda
Well, after an explosion of "dirty bomb", if you are not killed by the detonation, all you have to do is to use your handkerchief as a filter and try to get away from the place ASAP.
Personal decontamination will mean taking good shower. Maybe shaving your body hair. Every standard Army medical kit contains Potassium Iodide as an anti-radiation (anti-contamination?) pills. You can get it in any drug-store here as well. Contamination is dangerous when you have to work/fight at the "hot zone" for a significant amount of time and can't get cleaned or withdraw.
Decontamination of the place will include carefull washing of the streets/walls, removing the upper soil layer and the trees/grass. Closed windows and doors will protect your home from being contaminated from inside. It's easy.
Chemical attack is much more dangerous. Some agents can't be stopped even by insulated suits and closed-circle oxygen gas-masks. You can't simply wash away the mustard gas from your skin, and during the last 85 years they invented so many poisons that mustard gas is nothing compared to them.
As for radiation being good for your health - believe me, I work at Biochemical Physics Institute, Russian Academy of Science, and my former department worked on small doses problem.
All this "dirty bomb" hype is just a scarecrow, created using basic rules: people are afraid of the unknown, and the mysterious radiation danger is extremely hard to understand, also connected to the common fear of nuclear weapons. 90% of the people can't explain what makes radiation so dangerous and what is it's "killing mechanism".
Read "Example 1, Example 2, and Example 3" written by SCIENTISTS that show what effects there would be before making such assinine comments.
http://www.fas.org/faspir/2002/v55n2/dirtybomb.htm
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Read "Example 1, Example 2, and Example 3" written by SCIENTISTS that show what effects there would be before making such assinine comments.
http://www.fas.org/faspir/2002/v55n2/dirtybomb.htm
Did you read it yourself?
Cars emit more radioactive char then that "dirty bombs".
A swath about one mile long covering an area of forty city blocks would exceed EPA contamination limits, with remaining residents having a one-in-ten thousand chance of getting cancer.
Stay afraid if want. This ensures better fundings for our scientific research. Long live paranoia.
I have a good view on a nuclear reactor from my window at work. I wear wrist-watch with digits that glow in the dark. And I smoke. This is my own personal dirty bomb.
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Forgot to say: if it ensures a one-in-ten thousand chance of getting cancer - can someone please blow up a dirty bomb near my home?
:lol
"Someone set up us the bomb"
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Wonder how you'll feel when he detonates a dirty bomb in your city making it uninhabitable for several years and giving you a greatly improved chance of growing a nice big cancer?
If only there was a possibility we could get justice in our courts.
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nobody is saying this guy is 'ok' or that he should walk. just that he is intitled to due-process and if he has done or has tried to do the things they say he's done then they should have no problem getting a conviction.
charge him, convict him and sentence him. don't let him go just get on with the process.
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Usually the problem with this people held far enough from courts and civilian justice is that they can talk too much in public during the trial.
Frankly speaking I was surprised when Salman Raduyev was not killed in action but captured and sentenced to 19 years in jail by civilian jury. If you don't know who he is - he was a commander of a Chechen gang that captured a city in Dagestan in 1996, taking several hundreed hostages and making a slaugher in a hospital.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
nobody is saying this guy is 'ok' or that he should walk. just that he is intitled to due-process and if he has done or has tried to do the things they say he's done then they should have no problem getting a conviction.
charge him, convict him and sentence him. don't let him go just get on with the process.
I agree with this.
This court deciscion shows that the *checks and balances* still work :)
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The death penalty should only be used in extreme cases.
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I always knew Sandie was the devil. ;)
(one more post and this won't make sense)
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justice? what is justice if it 'twere just a few men with powers greater than ours
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Err, guys. We only have an assertion of the government prosecutors that this guy is bad.
If the government prosecutors were always believed to be telling the truth, we would not have need for judges, juries and defence attorneys, would we?
It's not just JP who is entitled to due process - it's all of us who are entitled to due process. We all know what happens when a government can accuse, convict and execute a person on it's say-so. Iraq, Nazi germany, Soviet Union.
miko
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Originally posted by Boroda
Just remember: the only people who died in Chernobyl catastrophe were the firemen who extinguished fire in the destroyed hot zone literately with their boots. They were walking on burning heat-emitting elements without even wearing insulated chemical defence suits.
Hasn't there also been numerous birth deformities around Chernobyl?
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Miko, I hope you are taking notice, our system does have checks and balances. Sometimes it might take a while to work out, but it usually will. This is basically what I alluded to in an earlier post, this nations greatness is the sum of it's whole, and it's mighty uncommon that one man or one administration can change it permanently for the worse.
dago
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Originally posted by Drunky
Hasn't there also been numerous birth deformities around Chernobyl?
It's not true.
"Everyone knows" means "it's not true" for me. 99% of the lies were backed up by this "everyone knows" sentence.
I had an interesting experience talking to my Mother's husband recently. You Western people have a dangerous habbit of believing all that media says, even worse then "ideal Soviet citizen".
This "dirty bomb" radiophobic media hoax is a good example.
NB: I don't think that this guy must be let go. The problem is that his intentions are what he must be jailed for. But his guilt must be proven by court.
In my Soviet school we were taught to have deepest respect to American democracy and all the democratic institutions. It's sad to see you moving away from the good achievements of your system.
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you don't have to go as far as chernobal to see what a dirty bomb could do. that was a run-away reaction situation, which is really nothing like a dirty bomb.
a dirty bomb would be a situation that would have waste and by-products being uncontained. for a bit of insight into this just check the cancer rates in richland, pasco, and keniwick washington. thyroid problems for kids born in the last 30 years there are something like 450% of national average. I've talked to people who have had 7 people come down with the same type of cancer all on the block they live on, (and just about every one in the area has a simular story, maybe not as dramatic as 7 on 1 block but extreame none the less)
Boroda, I always try to hear you out and realise that you may have insights into areas I don't know about. but on this subject I do know what I'm talking about. I've worked in the nuke power industry, I've been inside generators during fuel change outages (and taken over 1,100 mrem of dose in a 37 sec entry), I've been contaminated, and agresivley deconned.
I've been to the hanford reservation where most of our waste and byproduct are 'stored'(stored in the sense of the word that a teenager stores stuff in their bedroom), I've seen the charts that show where the waste was put, what tanks leaked(when they used tanks other times the waste was put in cardboard boxes and dumped in trenches, or just ran whole trains into the desert and burried them), I've been shown where the leakes they know of have spread twards ground-water and and how the direction of those ground-plumes corolate with cancer rates of people using well-water in the path of that waste. I've seen the diagrams of cancer and thyroid rates on a map and how the high rates areas look axactly like the wind directional diagrams when calculated with gasseous releases of radioactive iodines.
they have these little yellow plackard they put up whenever they locate a spot where waste was dumped, I've stood in the desert and looked off to the horison in all directions and seen these plackards looking like some sort of fluffied up crop fading into the distance as far as I could see. and the sickness rates in the sarounding area are much higher than the rest of the country. not 'signifigantly higher', as in 3%, 10% 50%. I'm talking about 100% higher, 300% and more.
I have to tell you, if they've managed to convince you that "Also, JFYI: small doses of radiation are good for your health.", or that a handkerchief could protect you from contamination, or that the wastes can't come in the form of acid, or base solutions that will eat through your skin and take the contamination directly into your bloodstream (and eventually to your liver, kidneys,pancreas,......), or that after an incedent the gov't (in our case the DOE) won't try to hide or mislable disease or death rates, and misslead or outright lie to protect the public opinion of the nculear power system, then you're the one who's swallowed a bit too much propaganda in this case.