Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Naudet on May 21, 2001, 05:13:00 PM
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I wanted to drag this away from a thread getting longer and longer.
So here the reasons why AH global radar is not that bad.
1. It reduces the time for the non-fulltime AH pilots to find a couple of enemies to battle with. I personally would not pay 30$ a month if i have to spent 45 mins to search for the enemy.
2. AH Radar has the function the Jägerleitoffiziere (hehe dunno english term, but i mean the fighter ground controllers or something similar) took over in WW2, from 1942 on all countries (except the Japs) had radar stations/secret services etc to survey the entire airwar.
i.e. if a the 8th USAAF got their B17 together the germans new it cause the noticed the increasing activity on US-radio channels.
3. Over their own country all WW2 nations were very capable of tracking enemy planes. They could even give altitude of intruders which is in AH only able by asking someone that has a vis.
4. Low level sneaking attacks were often reported by "listeners" or people/soldiers that were overflown. So the grid bar actually gives u that info "Hey someone is here" but as long as he is below radar u dont know were he is and in which direction he heads.
I really find the radar system of AH very good, it pakes a good punch of infos and also gives u the opportunity to fool ur enemy. Guess about a pretended attack by 15 planes on a field, while a small 6 plane attack force takes over another.
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baaah!
Last friday I was doing some furballing with some knights on the western side of the map at A26. I notice a huge sector bar at a faraway field.
"Knight raid rolling from 31!!" I type on country channel, then I, along with 5-7 other rooks head over there. We see about 6-7 B17's on climbout at maybe 5,000 feet.
They Die on climbout. Simple as that.
They probably sat OTR a few minutes waiting on a few pilots to join up in their mission. Big mistake. Because we could see 'em on bar 'dar.
You say that's realistic? Bull-loney.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
HT, please don't slap me around, I love your game, just wish the dar was in-tower only.
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<S> first decent thought out post i have seen (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Why, thank you geeb.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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hblair,
the germand and allies both knew when raids were coming, they had radar that could see across the channel. they could see the bombers forming up over the fields.
whels
Originally posted by hblair:
baaah!
Last friday I was doing some furballing with some knights on the western side of the map at A26. I notice a huge sector bar at a faraway field.
"Knight raid rolling from 31!!" I type on country channel, then I, along with 5-7 other rooks head over there. We see about 6-7 B17's on climbout at maybe 5,000 feet.
They Die on climbout. Simple as that.
They probably sat OTR a few minutes waiting on a few pilots to join up in their mission. Big mistake. Because we could see 'em on bar 'dar.
You say that's realistic? Bull-loney.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
HT, please don't slap me around, I love your game, just wish the dar was in-tower only.
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Originally posted by hblair:
Why, thank you geeb.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
srry wusnt talkin bout ur post (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by whels1:
hblair,
the germand and allies both knew when raids were coming, they had radar that could see across the channel. they could see the bombers forming up over the fields.
whels
Did thier bar 'dar cover the B17's inside the hangar while they were being serviced? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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No, but they had to fly a lot longer to get there too. With compressed range in AH, you have less time to intercept them, so it's a reasonable compromise in my book.
The AH system isn't perfect, but removing inflight radar isn't the answer either. That just makes the game more dificult, and removes the level of information that even a WWII pilot would have had.
The only thing I can see doing is making the dot radar a little less accurate. Then again, we don't get the altitude information that real pilots would have gotten either, so there is that we are missing. I think it's a decent compromise, and I've not heard a better... or more workable one yet. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://lephturn.webhop.net) for AH articles and training info!
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ok heres my view (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
point 1 it does reuduce time to battle and it still would if we had a limit on radars ability to see anything below 500 ft.
point 2 radar could indeed see bombers forming over a field but not ON a field! and could certainly not see through mountains etc
point 3 well taken this is true ground observers would give estimates of alt/ no.s/ etc but again Allied/axis intruder raids used differing routes to confuse.Stayed below radar for surprise.they used natural features to hide behind etc.Here you are a black dot standing out like a sore thumb let alone a bar to guide em in.(the Damnbusters would never have made it in AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
point 4 yes both sides used listening devices and observers but they were not as accurate as you might imagine. any aircraft at treetop height would mostly be missed and sound would be distorted by the many objects littering the sky at these heights.trees/houses/hills etc.
The biggest jabo of WW2 acheived total surprise at the height of radar technology.
I refer of course to 'operation boddenplatte'
january 1st 1945.
Although unsuccessfull for many reasons it wasnt because observers spotted it or because of radar.Most thought they were allied even up until they opened fired on the airfields.
Many were killed by their own flak!.War is confusion and it was not all 'perfect' as some seem to beleive.
Im not asking for radar to be turned off just allow 'under radar' flying.It was a major part of WW2 and as most of our planeset is jabo based it should be possible to use true jabo tactics.
as AH stands its only major attacks that get through(and lets face it these are getting rarer and rarer) or its an attrition war (which gets boring real quick) or its huge differences in numbers that takes bases.
Theres no room for any crazy fun deep penetration missions like we used to see.
NOE missions WERE FUN i assure you but if the radar stays as it is the NOE raid is dead.
DOES NO ONE REMEMBER THOSE FANTASTIC B26 RAIDS?
i do ... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)...valley flying till youre 20 miles out then popping up for a bombrun through acks........ah i miss em.
still what im asking will ruin your 45 minutes online right? when did you decide that?
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Hazed
9./JG54
[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 05-21-2001).]
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Originally posted by Lephturn:
No, but they had to fly a lot longer to get there too. With compressed range in AH, you have less time to intercept them, so it's a reasonable compromise in my book.
You forgot the part about the attackers having less time to grab altitude. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Originally posted by Lephturn:
The AH system isn't perfect, but removing inflight radar isn't the answer either. That just makes the game more dificult, and removes the level of information that even a WWII pilot would have had.
Am I woefully ignorant of WWII air combat? I don't remember reading that radar was that important a factor in the books I've read. Yes, in the BoB theatre, of course. But not everywhere was like the english channel, was it? What was the point of patrols? Comparing what we have here to what they had in real life in WWII, (not just in isolated theatres of the war, but generally) just don't float. Or am I wrong?
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Nice post hazed.
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Why AH radar is not bad at all.
Sorry, it's all bad. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Try this as a compromise:
1) Dot dar only comes up above 2,500 feet
2) Dar bars only show up between 500 ft and 2,500 feet. Anything below 500 feet, or in a terrain "shadow" don't show up.
3) Dar bar range extends for 2 grids in every direction around a field, dot dar is still good for half a grid.
4) Strat targets get dot dar for one full grid, dar bars for 3 grids in every direction.
I proposed this a while back in the Aircraft & Vehicles board but apparently no one here read it before. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von
Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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Dar Bar spoils every effort towards a low level surprise attack.
Hazed - tell em about our try to capture A54 (by JG54... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ) 5 sectors into enemy territory!!! Tell em how they were ripping your goon apart just because that darn red sector bar pointed you out in the middle of nowhere!!!
What dar does is promoting sub-orbital buff-strikes where they grab for an hour to reach 35k.
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Hblair,
I'm not talking about only radar. I'm talking about the combination of intelligence that ground controllers would gather, then communicate to the planes in the air. Radar, spotters, other planes, this info was all gathered through fighter command and distributed. Our more advanced radar makes up for some of the things we lack, such as ground controllers and the information they conveyed.
Now, that said, I don't want even a realistic level of information. I want more info. It needs to be enough information to keep the game fun. Sorry, not many guys are going to sign up for 4 hour patrols where they most likely never see a single enemy. We have to keep this thing fun first, and realistic where possible.
Now, I'm not saying there aren't improvements that can be made. I'm all for some changes like tying dar-bars to fields, changing it so HQ doesn't totally blind a country, making it so you can get under radar. Those are things that could work out. My point is that inflight radar of some form is required. The form we have now may not be perfect, but it's a pretty good compromise.
BTW guys, there are a couple of problems here. First, how do you technically figure out what "ground level" is? That's not trivial in a 3D terrain. Second, what about vehicles? Now you wouldn't have picked them up on radar in the real deal, but you would surely have gotten information through other means when enemy armor was in the area. How do we handle that?
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://lephturn.webhop.net) for AH articles and training info!
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what hazed said
should be able to fly low enough, say under 500 feet and not show on dar or bar
the exception to this would be when these low flyers are within eyesight of tower say 4 to 5 miles, then their dots should show..
and lower enemy icon info to less than 3k
Eagler
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I would prefer darbar not display ground vehicles or aircraft below 500 feet
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I say Dar only in the tower and dar equipped a/c.
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The statement that low level raids dont work is incorrect. Good routes and well executed approaches work very well. Every goon out there relies on noe flying to get to the enemy base. they are often successful.(against forward bases)
But that is not what people seem to want. They want to take a base 150 miles behind enemy lines and imediatly spawn 100 planes and tanks of every description from that deep base and tear the heart out of the enemy that didnt have a man in every tower looking for them..
Why do they want to be able to do that.
Because they want it REALISTIC...
If they had to supply an isolated base by c47 to be able to refuel or take new planes how often do you think these raids would happen even without dar.
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Originally posted by Lephturn:
Hblair,
BTW guys, there are a couple of problems here. First, how do you technically figure out what "ground level" is? That's not trivial in a 3D terrain. Second, what about vehicles? Now you wouldn't have picked them up on radar in the real deal, but you would surely have gotten information through other means when enemy armor was in the area. How do we handle that?
You do know that you can fly under dot dar don't ya? That code has been in the game for like a 1.5 years. So getting under bar dar would seem doable.
This is not necessarily directed at you lephturn, but why is it the pro 'dar guys claim what we have is realistic, then when you call 'em on it, they all of a sudden don't want realism? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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As far as handling the info on the GV's, that's already done by the pilots on the radio.
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<non informative content removed by the author>
[This message has been edited by straffo (edited 05-22-2001).]
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I have to say where do you people get the idea that a little bit of hardship puts people off playing?
Example:
When i first tried aces high i hadnt played a flight simulator for longer than a few weeks after buying it.then it was onto the next game and so on.Well i tried AH (my first online flightsim id ever tried)and got my bellybutton handed to me on a platter for the 2 weeks trial.Did i quit? or did i think this is great and i will learn to fly it better?
Well im still here almost 2 YEARS on!
The challenge is what keeps people coming back.True you have to maintain a game that doesnt put too many off but, In my opinion if you stay too simplistic the game stagnates.As AH stands i think its catering for the simplistic gamer too much.Anyone who is put off by these suggested changes would surely not stay for over 2 years anyhow right? They, like i used to, probably go through a game in about 2-3 weeks and then want something new.And those that only get 45 minutes online cant possibly complain that this change in dar will ruin their time online.Who knows maybe they will start trying NOE missions and love them...maybe they will stay for 46 minutes next time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif).
The way i see it the majority of the longterm account holders would like a little more depth than this endless base taking with furballs and would like to see more realistic stuff (no i DONT mean finiky stuff like engine management) like the scenarios.Hostile shores showed a way to go i think with the icon ranges etc.And the med terrain created its own problems with its pure size and so some calculation was necessary to make sure you could get back on the fuel you had etc.
We dont have to introduce things permanantly anyway! If it was tried and found that people hated it, it could be changed back.
p.s. before anyone starts on about low level HQ raids ruining the enjoyment it could be countered in many ways.Put the HQ at a higher altitude so attacks have to go into radar and reveal their position, have perfect radar to the floor for 50 miles around the HQ, there are any number of adjustments possible.
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Hazed
9./JG54
kirin: the mission you speak of was great in that it was daring and different (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) and the fact that as i sat on a beach,hidden against a mountain 10 miles from the base and i was hunted down by a player who just 'knew' something was around ruined it for us.such a shame.No rewards for the bold attampts it seems (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) just 2 more acks down and we would have pulled off a great mission.
ah well never mind, we will have to accept this because those that only have 45 minutes to play want to be able to log on,take off,shoot the c47 whos spent an hour flying to their base, land and leave right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 05-22-2001).]