Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Jackal1 on December 20, 2003, 02:09:14 AM
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What`s your favorite plane and why?
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I've become fascinated with the 109 lately, and frustrated.
The G2 is perfect, but then some days I'm having trouble getting kills due to the rather weak gun package.
The G6 gives me good snapshot ability with the 30mm cannon, but I lose some of the speed and maneuverability I'm used to in the G2.
The G10 is über and I only fly it occasionally.
the 109 is sorta uglypretty, it's got personality. It's got quirks, it's got strenghts.
I generally want to fly planes that gives me a challenge. I could just start flying the niki or spit, but I would have less fun getting more kills.
Ofcourse there's the 190A5 I inherited from you, Jackal1 ;)
I often fly it. I love it now that I've learned to use it somewhat properly. I sucked in it in the beginning but sticking with it payed off.
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F4U-1
F4U-1C
F4U-1D
F4U-4
I dont know why I like them, but they still all time favorite since i was small child.
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P-38. It's an E-Z mode plane with uber like qualities and the ewes dig guys in P-38s.
Seriously, ever since I was a little kid and saw a P-38 at an air show back in the '70s, I've always had a fascination with the Forked Tail Devil.
ack-ack
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LA-5
F4u-1
190a8
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anything not ez mode beside 109G10
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i have too many to list. if i had to single it down to 1 it would probably be the spitfire IX.
Its just a great plane and i am british so im biased.
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F6F-5 of course
First plane i flew in the game. A big blue spitty it is :D
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That big bad beautiful jug
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None other than the P38 Lightning.
If you fly it right you will out turn 109's, and when they figure this out and begin to run you will not be far behind. Get behind a spit V and turn with it for 3-4 turns until it starts pulling out of sights (Waste of E unless they dont know what they are doing). Then of course you use speed and climb rate to rope it.
The Lockheed P-38 Lightning racked up an impressive series of "firsts." It was the first:
-Lockheed-designed military aircraft to go into series production.
-twin-engined interceptor to serve with the USAAC
-production fighter powered by the Allison V-1710 in-line engine
-modern fighter equipped with a tricycle landing gear
-American plane to use butt-jointed flush riveted external surfaces
-plane to make extensive use of stainless steel
-fighter to use a bubble canopy right from the start
-fighter with speeds over 400 mph
-US twin-boom fighter to go into production
-USAAF fighter to shoot down a German aircraft
-USAAF fighter to carry out an escort mission to Berlin
-USAAF plane to land in Japan after that country had surrendered
The P-38 was also the:
-heaviest US single-seat fighter of World War II
-only American fighter in production at the time of Pearl Harbor to be still in production at the war's end
-The Lightning also accounted for more Japanese aircraft destroyed in combat than any other US fighter.
"Some pilots are good, some pilots are great but the best of all flew the P-38!"
Agreed :aok
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109G-10 iv allways enjoyed this aircraft due to its fast climb times and speed and of course the 30MM
F4U-D because its just cool
P47D-25 because when i dive it its going 550mph and we can never forget its 8 cals or how many times it brings me back
TA152 i dont fly this plane much but when i do i realy love it due to its powerful guns but of course its the best high alt plane in the game and its the best HQ defence fighter in the game
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Again? we just did this a month ago.
I'm not playing this time.
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latly for me its been the ki-61
- oiLEr45
oiLEr45 has shot you down.
"At least you werent shot down by a nobody in a zeke"
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Russian Fighters Rule!
Ok so I like em neat, trim, & FAST!
Been mostly Yak9U this tour. Tired of guys complaining about the la7.
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Ki61 - It was the first model kit my Dad made for me.
Yak9 - It was the first model I made.
I love both of them in AH.
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I'll play, because I love to say it:
Yak9U. It likes to fight in the dirt, and loves 190s and La7s.
-Sik
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P47
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Originally posted by jodgi
I could just start flying the niki or spit, but I would have less fun getting more kills.
Why do people think they can get more kills in niki or a spit? :confused:
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Ok, I lied a bit the last time I answered a post of this kind. I'm back to luvin the La5 and the Typhoon for attack mode. Crashed and shot down all my perks for 262 flyin. Didn't have the 533 perks :eek: it was gonna cost me to fly a 262 last night! lol
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Got to agree with motorOil...tiffie and La-5 are the two best kept secrets in the game.
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P-38.....
why u ask?
because it looks weird......:D
Oh, and also because its the best combination of ammo, speed, turning, range, payload and easy to use guns....;)
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Originally posted by humble
Got to agree with motorOil...tiffie and La-5 are the two best kept secrets in the game.
how can the tiffie be a secret when i see them flying as much as i see p51s
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Typhoon for me.
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Favorite plane: F-14
Favorite plane in Aces High (and World War 2 as well): F6F
I don't know why I would choose those planes. They are so different. Its not like they are both carrier based fighters used for fleet defense (in essence, if not name). Oh wait, they are, never mind.
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P47-D25
I can't tell you how many times I have done Alt Monkey with this plane, then dove onto an Enemy Airfield, made two passes getting atleast a kill each pass, then hightailing it out of there while being chased by two or more enemy fighters. Then only to turn with rudder, engage in HO, and take them both down. Then lastly RTB with Only the Chair and Gas Gauge intact. Needless to say this plane can take one hell of a beating and still survive to land. The worst damage I have had is no rudder, one elevator, one Aileron, fuel leak, pilot wound, Wing Gear shot off, and Burning Oil. I have never not landed one of these planes as soon as I turn towards home. And that is why I will always love this plane.
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the one from which a little screaming chute popped out of.
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Originally posted by Hazard69
because it looks weird......:D
It looks weird? Those single engine planes look weird, like they're missing something.
ack-ack
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favorite plane?
to poke fun at, the skankfire
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P47.
it's so ungly that it's beautifull.
second choise would be F6f - almost as ugly as the jug (the blue paint doesn't help in any way). it's a slower jug that turns better and takes off from carriers.
Bozon
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Yak9U is where its at ;)
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Originally posted by dedalos
Why do people think they can get more kills in niki or a spit? :confused:
They require little or no skill to get a kill... thats why they might be called trainer planes, for the begginers... sure you get more kills with them, but the kills dont mean anything to me unless i had to work for it. I get my fun out of the challenge.
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Originally posted by Kommandant
P47-D25
I can't tell you how many times I have done Alt Monkey with this plane, then dove onto an Enemy Airfield, made two passes getting atleast a kill each pass, then hightailing it out of there while being chased by two or more enemy fighters. Then only to turn with rudder, engage in HO, and take them both down. Then lastly RTB with Only the Chair and Gas Gauge intact. Needless to say this plane can take one hell of a beating and still survive to land. The worst damage I have had is no rudder, one elevator, one Aileron, fuel leak, pilot wound, Wing Gear shot off, and Burning Oil. I have never not landed one of these planes as soon as I turn towards home. And that is why I will always love this plane.
I dont think you are using the P47-D-25 to its full potential. Its my #2 plane. Get into a little turning instead of trying to keep safe, just dont waste too much E and you will enjoy it more (though nothing like dragging a 109 down to deck with you in a long drawn out fight, then shooting it down just to see enemies circling 5k above you).
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My favorite plane without a doubt would be the P38. In this game, it is a very unique plane and its quite difficult to fly against all the T&B fighters that are in the Main Arena. It has outstanding ground attack capabilites, and lets admit it, Its damn sexy.:D :D
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Kurt Tank creations all the way! Focke Wulfs and Ta152, there's nothing greater those birds. And they take some skill to fly.
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Ar-234
Fast enough to get in and out. It took me a long time to figure out how to be accurate with it bombing... the right airspeed...I still miss a lot, but its a fun ride.
Sometimes when im bored of bombing and weary of being in a fighter and having my kills vulched, I up it for recon and try to locate CVs.
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P51B
Like the combination of speed,manouvability,range and most of all it's olive drab instead of sissy silver.
Oh and also because I can maintain a K/D of 10 plus in the thing. :D
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
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Only thing missing on a plane with two engines is a decent sized bomb bay. :-)
...-Gixer
~Hells Angels~
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
It looks weird? Those single engine planes look weird, like they're missing something.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
It looks weird? Those single engine planes look weird, like they're missing something.
Ack-Ack, I meant weird in a good way.:aok
I]Originally posted by Gixer[/I]
Only thing missing on a plane with two engines is a decent sized bomb bay. :-)
Thats just one thing......single engined ones have second engine, wing area, second vertical stabiliser, second rudder and a decent sized bomb bay missing......:cool:
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Originally posted by Raptor01
They require little or no skill to get a kill... thats why they might be called trainer planes, for the begginers... sure you get more kills with them, but the kills dont mean anything to me unless i had to work for it. I get my fun out of the challenge.
ROFL ... Levi check this out :D
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If I could have it in there, I'd fly this:
(http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/fredmeyer/F-151_Mustang_3D.jpg)
Otherwise I like the Spitfire MKI. There's nothing more satisfying than shooting down an La-7 with those .303's.
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There is no such thing as "begginer" planes. It takes skill even in spits/n1ks to kill and survive. Its all about knowing what your plane can and can't do.:)
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Originally posted by WldThing
ROFL ... Levi check this out :D
Classic. :D
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I love the falling meteor (P47-D30) Excelent ordinance load out 2 1000lbs, 1 500 lb, and 10 rockets. Excelent guns package (8 .50 M2 machine guns). To top things off, excelent diving capabilities. Suprised many a spits and nikis when diving from 25k plus.
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I find it interesting that people still insist the plane has absolutely no impact on the fight. Truly, it boggles my mind. Is a spitfire/N1K2 easier to get a kill in than.. I dunno... a 190A5 or a C205? Absolutely. I personally can't understand how anyone could fail to see that. Yet some people do fail to see it.
I'll actually try to make this as clear as possible, right from the get go.
Spit IX vs 190a5 (I'll use the 190 since I am rather more familiar with that).
Spitfire advantages - Firepower (a huge advantage), acceleration, climb rate, turning, much better low speed handling, much lower stall speed.
190 advantages - .... .... . . .... ahh.... roll rate?
It doesn't matter which style of fighting you use (tnb, E-fighting, bore n zoom).. the Spit IX is vastly superior to the 190a5. The N1K2 is just about a Spit IX clone when you compare traits.. you trade 2 one hit wonder cannons for 4 more ordinary 20mm with a lot of ammo. The N1K2 isn't quite as good in the vertical though.
I said it in the game, and I'll say it again here. You put Fester in a 202, and me in a Spit IX... and Fester hasn't got a chance. Does that mean I'm a better pilot? Hell no... it means the Spit IX is that much better of a plane. Hell, Levi or Wld, you can take me up on that offer to, if you'd like to prove to me that the pilot is more important than the plane.
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lol, I feel more comfortable in a p38 than any other plane any day of the week. I suppose Urch is right, but in a close plane matchup, the better pilot with a shat plane would more than likely come out on top.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I find it interesting that people still insist the plane has absolutely no impact on the fight. Truly, it boggles my mind. Is a spitfire/N1K2 easier to get a kill in than.. I dunno... a 190A5 or a C205? Absolutely. I personally can't understand how anyone could fail to see that. Yet some people do fail to see it.
The type of plane is but one of many variables that determines the outcome of a fight; it is hardly the most important.
Incidentally, the original comment made by Wldthing and recognized by me was in response to Raptor saying, "[Spits] require little or no skill to get a kill... thats why they might be called trainer planes, for the begginers... sure you get more kills with them, but the kills dont mean anything to me unless i had to work for it. I get my fun out of the challenge."
What a hilariously ignorant rant. You don't "work" for kills in a Spitfire? The Spit V probably requires as much if not more work than just about any plane in the game in order to achieve a kill. Why? It's slow, very slow. Sure, it can dodge BnZ attacks more easily than, say, a 190A5. But dodging requires work. Setting up enemies, maintaining speed, hiding energy, trying to keep faster planes from bugging out... these all require a lot of work. In a co-alt, co-E engagement against just about any plane save some of the earliest war stuff, the Spit V rarely enjoys the luxury of disengaging and taking a break. It has got to get that kill quickly or, often, not at all.
You seem to be thinking in merely dogfighting terms. If I were to fight you in a 190A5 vs. Spit IX, what's to stop me from just pushing the nose down and running on the merge? Suddenly all of the advantages you mentioned... don't matter.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Well.. the way I look at it is this- The goal is to kill enemy planes. Sure, if you are in a Spit 9 and I am in a 190a5.. I can run from you all day. But the second we actually start to fight- I've either got to get the kill in the first 5 seconds or so, or I'm going to get killed. Even if I chose to bore and zoom as timidly as I possibly could, eventually the Spit will equalize the energy states, and once that happens the 190 is dogmeat.
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Spend a little time in H2H land, you will see more of a difference than MA. MA its get the kill when you can how you can, H2H its more relaxed. Your saying it requires skill for the whole flight, landing and everything. I am talking about same alt and same E and only for the fight. If a spit gets behind a less agile plane and both pilots are equally good the spit does not have to worry about getting the kill right away, unless other enemies are in the area.
Say it was spitV vs 190a5. 190 would have full trim, managing its throttle and rudder and still could not shake the spit that has only changed throttle so not to pass the 190. See what I mean by it requires less skill?
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I'm loving the FM2 right now.
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Going to add a little Widewingesque commentary to emphasize my point.
I've been flying the 190a5 a lot this tour. I'm 98-11 in it. Thats a pretty decent record for me. I'd say my average kill tally per sortie is probably around 3, maybe 3.5.
I spent the day flying the N1K2. I look at the Niki as a super 190a5. It is about the same speed, but it does everything else better. I flew 6 or 7 sorties (don't remember exactly, but I know I landed 2, died 3, and ditched once.. so I'm thinking 6). My record for the N1K2 for the day was 63-3. Once was a cherry-pick, two were spits that blew the tail off with a snapshot. One of the sorties was a pretty decent vulchfest, I think I ended up with 18 or 19 kills that sortie (about half of em were vulches). One of em was a really outstanding A2A sortie with 17 or 18 kills. The rest of em were the "average" 5-7 (which is still about twice as good as my 'average' 190a5) kill variety, with the exception of the cherrypick sortie.. I only got 5 that time.
Anyway, the Niki is just about the same plane as a 190a5.. you can fly them the exact same way. Only difference is the Niki has about twice the firepower, and it turns really well (and it is great low speed handling). So if you happen to get bounced by a high Spit while you are in a Niki... you've got a MUCH better shot at surviving. If you happen to get ganged by 2 or 3 guys... you have a MUCH better chance of surviving. You aint gonna run away from much in a 190a5 (not in the MA anyway.. in a 1v1 you could get away from the slower planes), nor in the Niki... but you have a helluva lot more chances to kill the people fighting you if you are in a niki (or a spit) than if you were in a 190.
You might think the plane isnt the most important variable... I'll have to respectfully disagree. After all... why did you chose the Spit 5? Why not the 109f4 (or 109e4 if you really want to be a masochist)... or the 202, or the P40, or any of the other slow "early war" planes. I can make a guess, no idea if it will be right or not though. You picked the Spit 5 because it has enough firepower to kill reliably with the most fleeting of snapshots, it accelerates well enough to keep up with the "late war" planes in a dive, and it has the most outstanding handling of that "class" of planes. I realize you may not care that much, but you could prove me right just by flying the 109F4 for a day. Fly it the same way you'd fly your Spit 5, and you wouldnt have anywhere near the same amount of success you have in the Spit. Hell, you could even fly it the way it was "meant" to be flown, and you wouldnt have much success in it- because the N1K2 and Spit 9 utterly dominate the 109F4, and make it pretty much useless. The spit 5 can at least out-turn the niki and spit 9, unless there is a horrible pilot in the spit 5.
Actually, maybe thats why we disagree. You fly a plane that is considered "inferior" to the "top of the line" planes.. but your plane still has one advantage that a "good" pilot can take advantage of (at least against a "bad" pilot)... I fly a plane that is completely inferior in every way to 3 of the "big 4". Something to think about anyway.
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F6F Hellcat
The Workhorse...enough said
(was also fav in Wb)
and of course th '38 as its the 367th's Historical ride, gotta fly it
http://www.367thfightergroup.com/~vtrump/367hist.htm
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originally posted by Raptor1
Spend a little time in H2H land, you will see more of a difference than MA. MA its get the kill when you can how you can, H2H its more relaxed. Your saying it requires skill for the whole flight, landing and everything. I am talking about same alt and same E and only for the fight. If a spit gets behind a less agile plane and both pilots are equally good the spit does not have to worry about getting the kill right away, unless other enemies are in the area.
I completely disagree...oh not about the 190 pilot needing more skill. I disagree tht H2H is more relaxed....
Since H2H terrains are usually smaller tht means most of the time u end up engaging the enemy at relatively lower altitudes...5k to 15k....that instantly makes the spits, niks and Lalas more deadly...and saps away some of the advantage tht planes like 109s or 190s or even the P47s hold against them....
Not saying that these planes suck...in fact in RL a P51 was a much better plane than a Spit, because there was time to climb up to good alts and then engage or rund depening on situations.
But try engaging a spit9 coalt and nearly coe in a P38 at 15k? Not as easy as if it were at 25k is it?
The plane is one of the most important aspects of winning fights....but i have killed spits in a P38 at 10k:aok and have been killed in a nik by a P47 at 5k:o ???
End result ........a good pilot can win in a bad plane against a bad pilot in a good plane.
Sure u have to be really good for tht but thts the whole point and thats why we choose to fly the harder planes.....the thrill is in the challenge not the kill.:cool:
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
What a hilariously ignorant rant. You don't "work" for kills in a Spitfire? The Spit V probably requires as much if not more work than just about any plane in the game in order to achieve a kill. Why? It's slow, very slow. Sure, it can dodge BnZ attacks more easily than, say, a 190A5. But dodging requires work. Setting up enemies, maintaining speed, hiding energy, trying to keep faster planes from bugging out... these all require a lot of work. In a co-alt, co-E engagement against just about any plane save some of the earliest war stuff, the Spit V rarely enjoys the luxury of disengaging and taking a break. It has got to get that kill quickly or, often, not at all.
Amen.
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Originally posted by Raptor01
-The Lightning also accounted for more Japanese aircraft destroyed in combat than any other US fighter.
This stat is true only for USAAF fighters. Grumman's F6F shot down twice as many Japanese aircraft as all USAAF fighters COMBINED !
My regards,
Widewing
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What other planes did the Hellcat encounter besides A6m's?
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Originally posted by Sway
What other planes did the Hellcat encounter besides A6m's?
Every IJN type, and they flew extensive sorties over Japan itself during the last 4 to 5 months of the war. Encounters with Japanese Army fighters were common as the war moved closer to Japan. Ki-43, Ki-44, Ki-84, Ki-100, Ki-61, JM2 and even N1K2's were engaged as well as the usual A6Ms.
Total kill stats against Japan are as follows.
F6F: 5,156
P-38: 1,703
My regards,
Widewing
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Awesome, thanks for that info Widewing. Glad to see p38 is up there on that list. :D
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Originally posted by Urchin
Well.. the way I look at it is this- The goal is to kill enemy planes. Sure, if you are in a Spit 9 and I am in a 190a5.. I can run from you all day. But the second we actually start to fight- I've either got to get the kill in the first 5 seconds or so, or I'm going to get killed.
[/B]
This is where you're wrong. The 190A5 enjoys the luxury of pressing or not pressing the fight. He can be as aggressive or tame as he wishes. Once he chooses to engage aggressively and fails to obtain the kill within a couple of seconds, he can bug out and set up again under more favorable conditions. In any event, it's almost always his choice as to when to commit to the five second window of opportunity. The Spit IX does not enjoy such luxuries in an otherwise equal engagement.
Even if I chose to bore and zoom as timidly as I possibly could, eventually the Spit will equalize the energy states, and once that happens the 190 is dogmeat.
Against equal pilots, the Spit IX would never equalize E states; the 190A5 would reserve the option of egressing once the Spit IX began equalizing anything.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Raptor01
Say it was spitV vs 190a5. 190 would have full trim, managing its throttle and rudder and still could not shake the spit that has only changed throttle so not to pass the 190. See what I mean by it requires less skill?
So now you're presenting a situation where the Spit V holds all the advantages including position and speed? It sounds to me like the 190A5 has more problems than plane type in that situation. The Spit V in a similar predicament with the roles reversed would be toast as well against equal pilots.
Do you often make a point of comparing plane attributes based on how well they perform on your six? Methinks plane type is not the issue whatsoever.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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See, thats where I think you are wrong. The Spit 9 is one of the best planes for E fighting, in my opinion. It climbs great, it has great high speed handling, and it retains energy pretty well.
I've fought 109g10 vs spit 9, and the spit 9, given enough time, will equalize the E states to the point where it can follow the 109 down when the 109 decides to run, and hose it out of the sky before the 109 can pull out of range. The 109g10 is a much superior E-fighting plane than the 190a5 is. Besides which.. the 190a5 can't be as aggressive as he wants. He has 2 choices- be completely passive and not fight at all, or be completely aggressive and try to bleed off a LOT more speed than the spit and hit the one shot you'll get when he overshoots. If he is stupid and goes nose to nose once he overshoots... if he just continues his turn you'll die. If you don't bleed off enough speed initially, you'll die. If you do everything right, but take one hizoo... hispano round to the tail as the spit flashes past, you'll die. There is no middle ground.
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Hi,
I fly 98% of time Hurricane Mk I in h2h.
Funny slow kite:)
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F4U-1
It's not the easiest plane to get kills in but it's very satisfying when you do get it to work for you.
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Lev I dunno about you, but my brain is wired in a way that defensive flying is automatic, I don't really think about anything, there's just two types of moves: right and wrong.
Spit5 permits you anything, except trying to keep up with faster planes.
You can dodge to eternity with equal pilots spit5 vs (fast 'bnz').
To counter and get a sure shot, the bnz has to use some E, and that's what Urchin means, I think, that to press on enough for a kill, the bnz's E adv. is going to run out sooner or later.
my fav is the 152, just because.
F6F I used to really like, but everyone flies it now, so the novelty's gone.
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and let's face it, who cares about extending for 1 min at a time to keep your E safety margin. We're talking about furballing here, not real life.
If we're doing the one-life approach, you're creating a sphere around planes that is proportional to their reach on you for a killshot, and we're basically not allowing any risk, which equals no engagement at all in many cases.
That's the fun of furballing in a less maneuverable plane, minimizing mistakes so that you can count on the opponent to make enough more than you to allow you into that sphere for a kill.
I don't know how else to describe it. There's a gradient from maneuverable and slow, to fast and unstable, where if you've a plane insanely fast and almost incapable of going anywhere but in a straight line, you'll only get one shot, whereas the insanely slow plane just bends anyway it likes, and if the fast plane does anything at all, it's a free kill for the slow plane.
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What a hilariously ignorant rant. You don't "work" for kills in a Spitfire? The Spit V probably requires as much if not more work than just about any plane in the game in order to achieve a kill. Why? It's slow, very slow. Sure, it can dodge BnZ attacks more easily than, say, a 190A5. But dodging requires work. Setting up enemies, maintaining speed, hiding energy, trying to keep faster planes from bugging out... these all require a lot of work. In a co-alt, co-E engagement against just about any plane save some of the earliest war stuff, the Spit V rarely enjoys the luxury of disengaging and taking a break. It has got to get that kill quickly or, often, not at all.
Well, the 190 A5 can't disenage any more than a Spit 9, it's slight SLIGHTLY faster in the long run and it accelerates far worse. It also climbs and zooms worse. IF the 190 A5 has more E from the beginning it can get away, but it can never keep up with an accelerating or diving Spit 9.
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Originally posted by moot
Lev I dunno about you, but my brain is wired in a way that defensive flying is automatic, I don't really think about anything, there's just two types of moves: right and wrong.
[/b]
I don't think defensively. Everything is offensive in the long term. The ultimate goal for me is to shoot down the enemy plane, not to simply avoid it.
Spit5 permits you anything, except trying to keep up with faster planes.
[/B]
Anything? I wasn't aware that the Spit V could outclimb an La7 or 109G10. Or that it could outturn Zekes at low speed or any number of planes (such as Typhoons, 190A5s, or P-47s) at high speed. It surely can't zoom climb with P-51s or P-38s. It's a pretty balanced package when you factor in its guns package, but let's be realistic.
You can dodge to eternity with equal pilots spit5 vs (fast 'bnz').
[/B]
Dodging does not equal killing. The Spit V can neutralize, but except in situations where it suckers enemies and manages a snapshot or causes a screwup, it cannot dominate the fight from a lower energy position. The chances are pretty good that against equal pilots, the lower Spit V will never equalize energy states.
To counter and get a sure shot, the bnz has to use some E, and that's what Urchin means, I think, that to press on enough for a kill, the bnz's E adv. is going to run out sooner or later.
[/B]
Against a Spit IX (and Urchin is mostly talking about the Spit IX because it suits his argument better than a Spit V) this may be true. Against something like a Spit V or a Zero or an FM2 (which can also dodge BnZ attacks with regularity), just about any plane with an energy advantage can count on maintaining it long enough to bug out if things go badly in the aggressiveness phase. This assumes equal pilot skills of course.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Urchin
See, thats where I think you are wrong. The Spit 9 is one of the best planes for E fighting, in my opinion. It climbs great, it has great high speed handling, and it retains energy pretty well.
[/b]
The Spit IX is about the most balanced plane in the game. Naturally it excels in many roles.
I've fought 109g10 vs spit 9, and the spit 9, given enough time, will equalize the E states to the point where it can follow the 109 down when the 109 decides to run, and hose it out of the sky before the 109 can pull out of range.
[/B]
If a Spit IX equalizes energy states with a 109G10 to the point where he can kill it before it flees, the G10 is doing something wrong. A Spit IX may neutralize an E-fighting G10, but the G10 holds almost all of the cards in such an engagement.
If you don't bleed off enough speed initially, you'll die. If you do everything right, but take one hizoo... hispano round to the tail as the spit flashes past, you'll die. There is no middle ground.
[/b]
If you do everything right, you won't take a Hispano round anywhere. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I don't think defensively. Everything is offensive in the long term. The ultimate goal for me is to shoot down the enemy plane, not to simply avoid it.
No offensive to concretize until the opportunity happens, that might as well be defensive. Otherwise I don't fly defensive either, and this is just semantics.
Anything? I wasn't aware that the Spit V could outclimb an La7 or 109G10. Or that it could outturn Zekes at low speed or any number of planes (such as Typhoons, 190A5s, or P-47s) at high speed. It surely can't zoom climb with P-51s or P-38s. It's a pretty balanced package when you factor in its guns package, but let's be realistic.
Don't start the smack. That's what the end of the sentence is for, it says except keep up with them. That's what the basis is.
Dodging does not equal killing. The Spit V can neutralize, but except in situations where it suckers enemies and manages a snapshot or causes a screwup, it cannot dominate the fight from a lower energy position. The chances are pretty good that against equal pilots, the lower Spit V will never equalize energy states.
And that's what I mean, you're at a never-ending dodging match untill the bnz starts spending more E to buy him a closer shot.
Against a Spit IX (and Urchin is mostly talking about the Spit IX because it suits his argument better than a Spit V) this may be true. Against something like a Spit V or a Zero or an FM2 (which can also dodge BnZ attacks with regularity), just about any plane with an energy advantage can count on maintaining it long enough to bug out if things go badly in the aggressiveness phase. This assumes equal pilot skills of course.
Yes, it doesn't work as well with the crappy planes, but who flies a TBM against a 262 on purpose? The zeke and spit5 can dodge eternally, I've done it and the only time I died when really trying was upping in the middle of a vulch with 1 or no friendlies to distract, or after an out#'d fight when more reds show up and I'd no time to get off the deck and past 250mph.
Why do you fly the best handling plane of all? Besides the paper kites.
And we aren't talking about bugging out, we're talking about killing the opponent as only purpose.
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Originally posted by moot
Don't start the smack. That's what the end of the sentence is for, it says except keep up with them. That's what the basis is.
[/B]
I'm not trying to "start the smack." If you've read any of my posts on this forum, you would know better. What I'm trying to do is create a realistic analysis of plane strengths and weaknesses. It seems natural for people who feel attached to a particular plane to talk up its weaknesses and talk down its strengths in order to create the perception that flying it well requires lots of "skill" or whatever. I've flown lots of planes over the years in Aces High, and while I would consider many of them very distinctive and different, I wouldn't call one substantially easier or harder.
And that's what I mean, you're at a never-ending dodging match untill the bnz starts spending more E to buy him a closer shot.
[/b]
Right, I know what you're saying. But even if the BnZer fails to obtain the kill in such a situation, he often has the option of bugging out before energy states completely equalize. It's ultimately up to the BnZer to dictate or not dictate the terms of the fight; the lower, slower plane must capitalize on mistakes and hope that the enemy messes up by becoming overly aggressive or not egressing when he had the chance.
I was speaking more of co-alt, co-E situations in response to Urchin's original post. Let's face it, it pretty much sucks to be low and slow in anything against anything. Even an SBD can kill a low, slow 262 given the right circumstances. The target of BnZ requires the enemy to screw up in some way in order to achieve the kill.
Yes, it doesn't work as well with the crappy planes, but who flies a TBM against a 262 on purpose? The zeke and spit5 can dodge eternally, I've done it and the only time I died when really trying was upping in the middle of a vulch with 1 or no friendlies to distract, or after an out#'d fight when more reds show up and I'd no time to get off the deck and past 250mph.
[/b]
Talk about starting the smack... you do realize that a Spit V won't really go past 280-300mph on the deck once parasitic drag kicks in? So you wouldn't have been able to create enough separation from the enemies coming into that fight even if you'd wished it... at least not before faster planes boxed you in.
Why do you fly the best handling plane of all? Besides the paper kites.
[/b]
I fly the Spit V because I enjoy it. I probably have enough perk points to fly 262s for months on end, but I don't. Why? I don't enjoy flying them. Why do you fly one of the most underrated, well-armed, better-handling Luftwaffe planes of all?
And we aren't talking about bugging out, we're talking about killing the opponent as only purpose.
I'm talking about a Main Arena environment. In other words, I'm discussing survivability as well as killing ability. In a pure dogfight against equal pilots where everyone turns as hard as possible, the Zekes will eat just about everything else for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Turning is just one of many abilities, however, and it's far from the one that determines the greatest balance of survivability and killing power.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Ok this way
Top 5% of MA
that includes most of you poop flingers and myself.
Vs the unwashed masses
5% flys the Spitv 1on1
Unwashed Masses flys uberrideoftheweek
5% wins
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The long reply is boring, it's below if you care.
My only disagreement and point is: you have a big furball, everyone is pretty much in a tnb state, out-turning each other for the kills.
If you show up in a more E-oriented plane, you will have only that E to save you, and as soon as you've lost it, the more 'tnb' planes will eat you for lunch.
Either them, or the planes just arriving at the furball with the altitude and speed you've already spent.
BnZ egressing does not compute since it is not fun.
TnB in those conditions is cake for me, because it'll always be possible to survive (and live to kill), whereas being restricted to (for ex.) a Ta152 means killing to buy your survival.
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I'm not trying to "start the smack." If you've read any of my posts on this forum, you would know better. What I'm trying to do is create a realistic analysis of plane strengths and weaknesses. It seems natural for people who feel attached to a particular plane to talk up its weaknesses and talk down its strengths in order to create the perception that flying it well requires lots of "skill" or whatever. I've flown lots of planes over the years in Aces High, and while I would consider many of them very distinctive and different, I wouldn't call one substantially easier or harder.
right, just surprised you missed my point, sorry. I don't do that deceptive bragging either. I agree that no plane's "easier" or harder, but if the MA is almost always a certain type of dogfighting, it must favorise some more than others. And that because we aren't interested in bore+zoom.
Right, I know what you're saying. But even if the BnZer fails to obtain the kill in such a situation, he often has the option of bugging out before energy states completely equalize. It's ultimately up to the BnZer to dictate or not dictate the terms of the fight; the lower, slower plane must capitalize on mistakes and hope that the enemy messes up by becoming overly aggressive or not egressing when he had the chance.
Ok, that's true but that case isn't what I mean, I think Urchin and I are talking about sticking to it and killing as many as possible till you die, not rtb to land kills.
Like you say, BnZ depends on the target's mistake, and if the target makes no mistake, and BnZ-guy is not allowed to ignore any opportunity, neither is effectively controling the fight.
I was speaking more of co-alt, co-E situations in response to Urchin's original post. Let's face it, it pretty much sucks to be low and slow in anything against anything. Even an SBD can kill a low, slow 262 given the right circumstances. The target of BnZ requires the enemy to screw up in some way in order to achieve the kill.
Yes, but what I mean is if you put up a 1:1 (at least to begin with) of those 'bnz' and 'tnb' planes, the fast plane should move to his 'perch' to dictate the fight, like you say, since he can't compete on the knife fight, and that's why the co-E doesn't exist any longer than at merge.
Talk about starting the smack... you do realize that a Spit V won't really go past 280-300mph on the deck once parasitic drag kicks in? So you wouldn't have been able to create enough separation from the enemies coming into that fight even if you'd wished it... at least not before faster planes boxed you in.
Ok, the point was I was barely above useful maneuvering speed, might have been anything between 200 and 225 mph. I wasn't going anywhere (what I wanted was those planes dead too), point is I couldn't do anything that time, as opposed to every other one where I wasn't cornered so slow.
I fly the Spit V because I enjoy it. I probably have enough perk points to fly 262s for months on end, but I don't. Why? I don't enjoy flying them. Why do you fly one of the most underrated, well-armed, better-handling Luftwaffe planes of all?
Because, besides personal appeal, it's still a LW brick, and you can see how useful it is to be underrated and the cream of the LW crop if we'd duel, one in it and the other in a spitV...
I'm talking about a Main Arena environment. In other words, I'm discussing survivability as well as killing ability. In a pure dogfight against equal pilots where everyone turns as hard as possible, the Zekes will eat just about everything else for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Turning is just one of many abilities, however, and it's far from the one that determines the greatest balance of survivability and killing power.
That's fair and I'd say the same thing if it were my point. What I mean to point out is that there is about the same amount of effort needed to out-tnb or out-bnz planes in a dogfight, but if you eliminate the option to egress (far or close) anytime you've lost your opportunity in a 'bnz', it's not such an easy way to survive and come out on top.
Same thing you might have said about having fun being your calculus. Winning every fight (or making a draw, in the worst case) is not so fun anymore, and (pardon my fat head) that's what flying Spits is to me.
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it cannot dominate the fight from a lower energy position
Uh duh, of course it can't, no plane can nor should and plane be able to do it, it's the whole "height is might, speed is life" thing.
Some planes do it better though, compare a 190 with a spit (any 190 and any spit) if the 190 gets jumped while flying at 1k alt it don't have anything to go for it. Try the same in a spit and the spit will have a good chance of either staying alive along time or getting a snapshot at the enemy as he zooms by, Hispano helps alot there too.
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Originally posted by moot
BnZ egressing does not compute since it is not fun.
TnB in those conditions is cake for me, because it'll always be possible to survive (and live to kill), whereas being restricted to (for ex.) a Ta152 means killing to buy your survival.
[/b]
I think this is where I both agree and disagree with you. The Spit V (among many other planes) kills to buy survival as well in such a situation. I've been in encounters where I've had six or seven guys chasing me down, and the only option was to fight and hope to kill them all. I'm sure you've encountered the same.
In a furball in a slow plane, whether it turns well or not, you've got to basically kill your way in and out. Whereas the Spit V might kill the TnBers more efficiently, it also ends up dodging BnZers and hoping for snapshots or mistakes. The 152 or other less manueverable but faster planes kill TnBers less efficiently but enjoy greater odds of chasing down the faster planes. God help the crazy guys like Honch who fly P-40s. When it comes down to it, very low and very slow in any plane in a furball pretty much equals dead.
I think we enjoy different aspects of Aces High, which is cool. You seem to revel in defeating better turning planes 1 on 1 by turnfighting in an inferior turning plane. And certainly, should you defeat someone when flying to their plane's strengths, you've demonstrated quite a bit of skill. I enjoy flying my Spit into whatever kinds of odds and seeing how many I can bag before buying it. At least we agree that survival is secondary. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Uh duh, of course it can't, no plane can nor should and plane be able to do it, it's the whole "height is might, speed is life" thing.
[/B]
The 262 can, but that's such an crazy plane anyway. A smart 262 travelling slower than an enemy and significantly below it can equalize energy states almost immediately and remain untouched once the enemy dives in. I suppose you wouldn't call that "dominating a fight" from below, but it's about as close as you can get.
Some planes do it better though, compare a 190 with a spit (any 190 and any spit) if the 190 gets jumped while flying at 1k alt it don't have anything to go for it. Try the same in a spit and the spit will have a good chance of either staying alive along time or getting a snapshot at the enemy as he zooms by, Hispano helps alot there too.
Okay. Now jump the 190 at 10k or 15k and see how its odds of survival increase once pure turnfighting becomes less important to the dodging, surviving, and odds turning equation.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Raptor01
They require little or no skill to get a kill... thats why they might be called trainer planes, for the begginers... sure you get more kills with them, but the kills dont mean anything to me unless i had to work for it. I get my fun out of the challenge.
Maybe one day it will dawn on you that it's not the plane but the pilot. After all a plane only does what the pilot tells it to do.
ack-ack
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you understood what I said...
going to fly nothing but spit5 for a moment.
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Originally posted by Sway
Awesome, thanks for that info Widewing. Glad to see p38 is up there on that list. :D
This might make you happy too. The majority of the USAAF aces in the Pacific flew the P-38.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Maybe one day it will dawn on you that it's not the plane but the pilot. After all a plane only does what the pilot tells it to do.
My point is that if a spit catches a less agile plane at co alt and same E it will out turn the enemy withought having to use trim, rudder or anything a more expierienced pilot uses. Again if say a 190 was expierienced and using everything to help him turn better he would still not turn with the spit not using any of it. If the 190 merged and got behind the spit, it would only be there a few seconds before the spit out turned it and was on the 190's six. Then you are saying if 190 was a better pilot it would not stay and fight the spit, that is true. I am just saying that the spit doesnt require as much skill to out turn most other planes.
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Rapter you need to spend a tour flying a 190 or 51/F4U, directlly followed by a tour of flyin Spitty 5's and FM2's.
Then report back. Your not seeing the whole picture.
My two rides are a 1-D and a Spit 5. Ones an E plane, ones a turner with E alternatives.
I "might" be average in both rides on a good day..
Your falling in on the excuse that the grass is always greener in the other ride..
I used to do that.
Tain't so.
It's the pilot.
In almost seven years of flying my "average" REGARDLESS of plane flown is about the same.
Who'd thunk it.
It's not the plane, it's the geometry in your head with the givin attributes of the plane you fly, and that of your opponent in each and every situation. All calculated with your assessment of the necessary action required on your part given the current situation.
No shortcuts.
There are none.
I know you wish there was.
There isn't.
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Originally posted by Raptor01
I am just saying that the spit doesnt require as much skill to out turn most other planes.
And? It's not surprising that a better turning plane outturns a worser turning plane. Does it surprise you that a P-51 is faster than a Spit, or that a P-38 performs better in the vertical, or that an La7 accelerates better, or that a 109G10 climbs better?
All of these things require less skill in those planes than in a Spit too. These are their strengths; turning in a Spit is its strength. Now take the fight into the climbing vertical against a P-38 and tell me that the P-38 requires less skill to do what it does best.
Unsurprisingly, successful players often fly to the strengths of their planes. How unskillful of them!
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I'd have to agree with Leviathn here. I fly the Mk IX exclusively for Air to Air engagements. It gets rather annoying hearing folks say the Spitfire is a dweeb plane.
Yes a majority of the time we can evade a BnZ'er. But that is only because we are using the aircrafts strengths to our advantage. We gain another chance after every successful evasive maneuver. But we lose Alt almost immediately and we have to once again setup for the defensive if we get pressed again. During these 10 to 15 seconds we've only regained our previous state in altitude, energy and position. Which basically means at no time did we gain anything on the agressor but another chance to fight again.
There are very few 1 on 1 situations in the MA anymore. When flying the Spitfire that isn't a good thing. It's more often than not I encounter atleast 2 to three far superior aircraft together just looking for a fight. Energy fighting against the Spitfire is almost always a way for you to survive. We don't have the speed or acceleration that many aircraft have. We have to use angles to defeat our opponents and quick precise maneuvering. Snap rolling quickly enough to avoid a bandit on our six and come around for shot isn't as easy as it seems. By the time your back lined up they're atleast 250 in front of you and accelerating away very rapidly. That gives you less than a second to get off lethal shot. This is very often the situation when a set of pilots are winging together and pressing you.
Why do I fly the Spitfire. Because in almost any situation I have a 50/50 chance of surviving. I may not get the kill but I'll stay alive to engage someone else who will have more patience to deal with me. If they don't and make a mistake then I've won the duel. Thats the whole point of flying is it not? I've just learned to use the planes abilities and not exceed them to the point of making a mistake. If that makes me a dweeb then so be it. Atleast I'm not whining when I've made a mistake in superior aircraft and get myself killed only to cry out "spitdweeb" or "dweebfire" on channel 1.
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Okay. Now jump the 190 at 10k or 15k and see how its odds of survival increase once pure turnfighting becomes less important to the dodging, surviving, and odds turning equation.
Sure, it can run. But so can a spit 5, it only have to dive to the deck and as the spit accelerates far better the E state will soon be equal in the dive and than the fight is in the spits favor again.
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Am I the only person who dies every time I take up a Spit V?
I count Both Levi and Montezuma as friends, and both have talked up the Spit V, so I've given it a go. And every time I die die die. Sure, sometimes I get a kill or two, but it's just so slow, and I can never adapt my thinking to the "88 eyes" turn and burn of the furball. I always end up trying to E fight in the thing and because of it's slow speed, I cant regenerate my energy fast enough. For my style of flying the Spit V just doesn't work.
I'm much more effective in a 190D or 109G10 (though I prefer the Yak9u). Although I do admit that I've only flown spits maybe 5 times in the MA.
-Sik
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Sure, it can run. But so can a spit 5, it only have to dive to the deck and as the spit accelerates far better the E state will soon be equal in the dive and than the fight is in the spits favor again.
Oh, really? Well, let's take a look at the data to see if it backs up your claims.
According to the acceleration charts (http://kingcat.hihome.com/accel.html), at sea level the Spit V with or without WEP marginally outaccelerates the 190A5 from between 150mph to 210mph. Above 210mph, the 190A5 without WEP outaccelerates the Spit V, and at all speeds the 190A5 with WEP handily outaccelerates the Spit V by close to 10% or greater.
Let's check out the true airspeed charts (http://kingcat.hihome.com/speedgraph.html) now. It seems that at all altitudes the 190A5 enjoys about a 30-50mph speed advantage with or without WEP. According to this chart (http://kingcat.hihome.com/rollrate.html) the 190A5 also outrolls the Spit series at all speeds.
How again does the Spit V more easily equalize energy states by diving in this situation?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Sure, it can run. But so can a spit 5, it only have to dive to the deck and as the spit accelerates far better the E state will soon be equal in the dive and than the fight is in the spits favor again.
Never happened to me ;) But then again, i never see a point in running.. I rather fight in an unequal fight than an equal one. The less vurnable you seem the easier they are to bag.
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AH SpitV vs AH 190A5? SpitV outclimbs 190A5 between 5 and 18k, this advantage is much more clear wep off in both planes (and that is a good factor to calculate acceleration). If we add the fuel load factor, the advantage of the SpitV is notorious for the same range (SpitV 75% vs 190A5 100%). Take also in cosideration the excelent zoom capabilities of the spit compared to the poor zoomming of the 190A5. In a co E engangement most advantages to get the kill are at the spit side.
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Raptor, you're right.. it is fairly easy to outturn most other planes in a spitV.
This is the spit's strength.. one of only a couple IMHO. In the Ma though, the spitV pilot usually has to deal w/ multiple bogies/attackers and cannot often dictate the fight(in other words, force everyone into a turnfight).
So as much as the spitV is adept at turning, this strength just isn't enough to make it a monster when compared to it's weaknesses.
:)
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This thread has convinced me that I'm not having fun.
In 2004 I'm going to change planes and tactics.
-Sik
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I agree it depends more on the pilot than the plane, just some planes have more advantages than others. The spitfire is weighed down by speed and thin armor, NIK by cardboard armor.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Oh, really? Well, let's take a look at the data to see if it backs up your claims.
According to the acceleration charts (http://kingcat.hihome.com/accel.html), at sea level the Spit V with or without WEP marginally outaccelerates the 190A5 from between 150mph to 210mph. Above 210mph, the 190A5 without WEP outaccelerates the Spit V, and at all speeds the 190A5 with WEP handily outaccelerates the Spit V by close to 10% or greater.
Let's check out the true airspeed charts (http://kingcat.hihome.com/speedgraph.html) now. It seems that at all altitudes the 190A5 enjoys about a 30-50mph speed advantage with or without WEP. According to this chart (http://kingcat.hihome.com/rollrate.html) the 190A5 also outrolls the Spit series at all speeds.
How again does the Spit V more easily equalize energy states by diving in this situation?
-- Todd/Leviathn
My argument isn't spit V vs 190a5. I'm saying that there are basically two types of planes. There are the "fast" planes, and there are the "turny" planes. The La-7 and the P-51 are the best "fast" planes (for best read most advantages with fewest disadvantages), the N1K2 and the Spit 9 are the best "turny" planes. I'm not even certain how (or even if) we are debating the merits of the Spit V. But since we are, I suppose I can try to put my argument a different way.
Ok, you are tooling along at 15k in a 190a5 in the MA. You run into a spit at 15k. Doesn't matter if it is a spit 9 or a spit 5, for all intents and purposes. You hit the merge, realize you are not going to make it around faster than the spit, so you decide to get out of dodge. Lucky for you, it is Leviathns superior sucky spit 5, so you can dive away from it. So, now you are in a 190a5 at 8k going 400 mph, with a spit 5 about 1.5 back (and losing ground pretty rapidly). Right about as that spit hits 2.0 back, yet another spit shows up, dives on you, but cant quite catch you. So you keep on running. Now you are at 6k, with a spit 9 1.0k and holding, and a spit 5 about 3.5k back and still losing ground. Low and behold, an La7 shows up. He's way back there, just got into icon range at about your 8 o clock. So, you've got about two minutes before he's pulling inside of 1,000 yards. By that time, the Spit 9 is about 2k back, the spit 5 is probably just about out of icon range (but still heading your way), and now the La7 is 1000 yards out and closing fast. What do you do?
It is quite simple really.. you die. You can't out turn any of the planes facing you, you can't run from the la7, and once you lose speed dodging the La-7s first pass, you cant run from the spit 9 anymore. So, you haven't got a chance.
So now, you tell me how the scenario is different if you are in a Spit 5?
I can give it a guess, but that is all it will be. This is pretty much how it worked for me when I was flying the N1K the other day, but I realize the Spit 5 is a lot harder to get kills in.
You are tooling along in a spit 5 at 15k. You run into another spit 5. Right at the merge, it is apparent that the other guy is a fool that has no idea how to fight, and you get behind him after about 5 seconds and kill him. So now you are tooling along at 12-13k (you'll usually lose a little bit of alt even in the briefest fight) and you run into another spit. He has a slight alt advantage, but doesn't know what to do with it. So, he goes to bounce you, overshoots.. tries to flat turn, and dies. So.. now you are at 10k, you see an La-7 cruising along at 400 mph at 6k. You dive on the La-7, the La-7 wets his pants and runs for the nearest ack.
You'll have to make up the rest of the story from here, I'm bored.
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By the way... explain this for me, if you could. Pilot X gets a K/D of 9 in a 190a5.... and a K/D of 20 in the N1K2. Pilot X doesn't vulch exclusively, but he isnt averse to it either... figure about 10-15% of his kills in both planes are vulches, the rest are A2A.
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Ok, I tried to make an "experiment".. as objective as I could. Take 2 pilots. Pick 2 planes. First set of fights is plane A vs plane A, second set of fights is plane B vs plane B. Third set of fights is plane A vs plane B.
First guy I got to do it we picked Spit 9's, then F4U-1Ds, then Spit 9 vs F4U-1D. I didn't get the results I expected. I won the 3 fights in the Spit 9, then I won the 3 fights in the F4U. Then I won the 3 fights in a F4U against a him in a Spit 9. So, I told him what he had done wrong, and hopefully that'll fix that.
Second set was a little better, from my point of view. We did La-7s, then P-47s, then P-47 vs La-7. Since I won the 3 fights in La-7s, and the 3 fights in P-47s, I flew the P-47 and he flew the La-7 for the 3rd one. We did 4 fights, I augered once and got shot down 3 times.
Third set was Spit 9s and 190a5s. I lost the spit 9's 1 to 2, lost the 190a5s 1 to 2, won in the spit 9 vs 190a5 3 to 0.
So, I feel comfortable in saying that it is the plane, and not the pilot that is the deciding factor in a 1v1 fight, with one caveat- both pilots have to know how to use their planes effectively. They don't have to be the worlds greatest stick, but they do have to know what advantages thier plane has over the enemy plane, and how to make use of them.
YMMV, of course.
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Originally posted by Urchin
So, I feel comfortable in saying that it is the plane, and not the pilot that is the deciding factor in a 1v1 fight, with one caveat- both pilots have to know how to use their planes effectively. They don't have to be the worlds greatest stick, but they do have to know what advantages thier plane has over the enemy plane, and how to make use of them.
YMMV, of course.
But if both pilots have to know the strengths and weaknesses of their respective planes and how to use them effectively, doesn't that point to the pilot being the deciding factor?
ack-ack
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that's what the first two sets with equal planes are for, calibrate the pilot difference.
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No, not in my opinion. You see, the first two fights are what I would call the "controls". Both pilots in the same plane, same alt, the only variable is "pilot skill". Therefore, the winner of the first two fights would quite naturally be called the better pilot, in my opinion. Therefore, by putting the better pilot in what I would call the inferior plane, I am attempting to compare how the two effect the fight. If "pilot skill" was the determining factor, the better pilot would win easily, no matter what planes the respective combatants were in. Since that does not seem to be the case, I decided that it is in fact the plane that is the determining factor, in a 1v1.
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I consider myself to be a good pilot and I think you're wrong.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Urchin
My argument isn't spit V vs 190a5.
[/B]
This was more in response to others who specifically mentioned those planes rather than just you.
Ok, you are tooling along at 15k in a 190a5 in the MA.
This is a nonsense scenario. On the one hand the 190A5 faces a Spit V flown competently enough to avoid dying to the 190 but so inept as to die within five seconds to the Spit V? You've just injected pilot skill into the equation without even realizing it. The scenario could have gone any number of ways. Let's say the initial Spit V is competent enough to neutralize my Spit V, locking me in a slow scissoring fight as we descend to the deck rapidly. Within no time, the Spit IX and La-7 jump into the fight and nail me when I'm low, slow, and vulnerable. This same Spit V could only chase the 190A5 as he egressed with poor situational awareness right into the path of enemies.
We can make up stories all day, but they don't prove anybody's point.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Urchin
By the way... explain this for me, if you could. Pilot X gets a K/D of 9 in a 190a5.... and a K/D of 20 in the N1K2. Pilot X doesn't vulch exclusively, but he isnt averse to it either... figure about 10-15% of his kills in both planes are vulches, the rest are A2A.
Are you actually taking one example of someone clearly above and beyond most pilots and using him to represent the population?
I'd bet 99% in this game couldn't get a K/D of 9 in anything, let alone 20. This pilot already demonstrates that it's the pilot, not the plane, that matters.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Urchin
If "pilot skill" was the determining factor, the better pilot would win easily, no matter what planes the respective combatants were in. Since that does not seem to be the case, I decided that it is in fact the plane that is the determining factor, in a 1v1.
This is an interesting if inexact experiment. No offense, though, but you have no business participating in your own experiment when you have a stake in the outcome and can easily (if even unconsciously) manipulate the results.
-- Todd/Leviathn