Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: midnight Target on December 20, 2003, 11:44:17 AM
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As picked by MSNBC
1. DOUGLAS DC-3
2. BOEING 707
3. BELL X-1
4. BOEING B-17
5. NORTH AMERICAN P-51
6. CURTISS JN-4 JENNY
7. MESSERSCHMITT ME-262
8. CESSNA SINGLE-ENGINE AIRCRAFT
9. BOEING B314
10. LOCKHEED SR-71
Full article Here (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3606994/#dc3) with runner up picks.
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And then there is this article (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3700087/) of reader reactions. Good stuff. The one plane that many felt should have made the list but didn't.
(http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/031219/031219_avroarrow_hmed_3p.hmedium.jpg)
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I find it funny that Concorde didn't make himself in. Maybe because it's not from US industry.
Wonders...
Edit : just read the article post by 'Midnight Target'. I don't agree with it but they wrote some valid points.
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The 262 being the only non-american plane?
personally, i think its nearly impossible to create such a list without rejecting other important aircraft in humanities history
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Bah, we all know that only Americans have developed good aircrafts. ;)
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9 out of 10 are US ?
Who made that list ? ;)
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lol what a BS list.
hope nobody takes that seriously.
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lol...needed a bit of comedy...thanks
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Actually I really think the SpaceShipOne should be on the list considering it went Mach1.5 on the anniversary.
http://www.scaled.com/projects/tierone/
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Originally posted by Ouaibe
I find it funny that Concorde didn't make himself in. Maybe because it's not from US industry.
Wonders...
Edit : just read the article post by 'Midnight Target'. I don't agree with it but they wrote some valid points.
how many concords were built?
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how many Bell X-1's were built?
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Ahhh......No F4Us nor Hellcats on that lists and now Im getting real mad!
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Concorde.
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The list was made for an American audience. And it's a sack of *****.
Where's Concorde? The Harrier? The Ar234? The Me 163? If you're going to include the X1, why not the Wright Flyer? And the X-1 was a rocket, not a plane. It is also a mtetter of record that German planes exceeded the sound barrier long before the X-1.
Drop the Cessna and the X1 and add the Concorde and Harrier.
The Jenny??!!?? Try the Sopwith Camel. Better would be Bleriot's monoplane.
The B314 is really reaching. If you want a flying boat, better would be the Short Sunderland, which put a stop to the U-boat menace, or the Catalina.
Sorry, but this is an "Isn't America great?" article and deserves due contempt.
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The P-51, B-17, and B314 are the most vulnerable to challenges from this list.
Concorde was too expensive and impractical, which is why U.S. never built a supersonic airliner.
Not fair to list family like Cessna single-engine aircraft; needs to be more specific, e.g., 172 or whatever.
So, I'd chose the C-130 over the B314, the B-52 over the B-17, and the F-4U Corsair over the P-51.
Would also have to seriously consider the Bf-109, Spitfire, A-26, Mig-21, F-4 Phantom, F-16, and Learjet.
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Faced with the question: "Why are 9 out of the 10 most influential/important aircraft according to this poll of American design?" we can produce two options for a response.
1.) Because Americans designed 9 out of the 10 most influential/important aircraft according to this poll.
2.) Because of a vast American black ops conspiracy designed to rob credit from other countries who brought forth such notible designs as the Potez 630 and the C.101 Aviojet. Granted these aircraft did not take part in the Berlin Airlift, carry millions of passengers, or escort bombers into Germany, but they should be included just to make it fair.
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WTF is the Jenny doing on this list? And why have both the DC-3 and B314? MSNBC shows itself to be the paragon of mediocrity once again.
ra
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Wright Flier didn't make the top 10?
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The top 10 of a snobby armchair aviation buff:
1. Wright flyer (duh)
2. P-51
3. Bf-109
4. B-17
5. Me-262
6. B-52
7. Spitfire
8. He-111
9. MiG-15
10. C-47
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1. Wright Flyer
2. Sopwith Camel or Fokker Triplane
3. P-51
4. Me 262
5. X-1 (rocket sure but broke sound barrier in level flight first)
6. Avro Arrow (alot learned from this plane is used today)
7. F15 eagle (air to air record speaks for itself
8. C47
9. B17
10. B2 or F117 (stealth needs mention in top 100)
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Its funny how I saw nearly every airplane on everyones list last Monday.
My #1 would be the A-6 Intruder, but then again thats me;)
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nobody thought of Zero ?
how about Il-2 ?
both Sopwith Camel and Fokker Dr.I were icons of an era...same with Spitfire, Bf 109 and P 51 (which made to the list)
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Military planes should be of little importance on the list. 99% of the planes in the world neither shoot missles or drop bombs.
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heres my thinking, not saying all these should be on the list, but atleast get a mention: -
Sopwith Camel (most kills in WWI) or Se5a which was just as good.
As for the fokker triplane it was not really ground breaking (was copied from sopwith triplane) nor was it that great unless in the hands of a brilliant pilot.
DeHavilland Comet? the first jet airliner
Harrier
suprised no one has mentioned Boeing 737 or 747.
cant really take the list seriously when it doesnt include the wright flyer or bleriot.
Concorde gotta be there really :D
As for B-17 some would argue that the B-24 was better, Lancaster more versatile, B-29 more groundbreaking in terms of tech.
F-117? first stealth plane into service?
depends on judging criteria really.
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What about this one? (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_207_1071970760.jpg)
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"Sorry, but this is an "Isn't America great?" article and deserves due contempt."
DETH TO AMREEKA!!!
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Originally posted by skernsk
1. Wright Flyer
2. Sopwith Camel or Fokker Triplane
3. P-51
4. Me 262
5. X-1 (rocket sure but broke sound barrier in level flight first)
6. Avro Arrow (alot learned from this plane is used today)
7. F15 eagle (air to air record speaks for itself
8. C47
9. B17
10. B2 or F117 (stealth needs mention in top 100)
An F-18 for your avatar and you don't mention a Hornet?
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Originally posted by SunTracker
Military planes should be of little importance on the list. 99% of the planes in the world neither shoot missles or drop bombs.
Military aircraft serve as test beds for technology used in civilian aircraft.
In short, without the need for rapid devlopment of capable bomb droppers, we'd have been using piston engined aircraft exclusively well into the 60's.
So yes, military aircraft are extremely important.
PS: Agree with the Camel or Fokker - cant believe I forgot about one/both of those.
Definately should be on the list.
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Spitfire708,
I was thinking the same thing, the F-16 should be up there, its the most beutiful AC ever :)
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my list:
1. Wright Flyer – only powered, winged aircraft to hold endurance, altitude, speed, gross weight, and time to climb records simultaneously (well first anyway) and represented the entire fleet of aircraft in its day.
2. Sopwith Camel: - most kills in WW1
3. Curtiss Jenny: Trained an entire generation of pilots
4. Douglas DC-3 First modern airliner, and when drafted into military service became one of the four most important machines to help the allied victory.
5. F-86 / MiG 15 (tie) First decent jet fighters. (The Me-262 had a engine TBO of like 10 hours)
6. Bell X-1: the entire fleet of SS aircraft in its day.
7. Boeing B-47: Became the prototype for virtually all the commercial jet fleet
8. Boeing 707: Opened jet passenger traffic to moderate incomes. (Comet didn’t last)
9. Boeing 747: More passengers carried on 747 that any other aircraft. 33 years of 400+ passengers.
10. Bell UH1-Huey: The C-47 of helicopters.
11. Honorable mention A-10. Has a mean bellybutton gun.
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In regards to the Wright Flyer and why it's not included in the list, all you had to do was actually read the article that was linked to. :) For those that didn't read it.....
The first: Many of you were aghast that we somehow neglected to include the 1903 Wright Flyer in our list — the plane that began it all. No, we weren't temporarily deprived of our sanity, though some might argue that the Wrights' 1908 version was far more functional and had a greater impact on the budding aviation industry. We neglected to explain that our mandate for creating the list was to pick 10 other airplanes that should belong in a pantheon with the Wright Flyer. That caveat was included in our original request for entries in Alan Boyle's Cosmic Log, but not in the piece itself. Our bad.
how would anyone here pick *just 10*, would be tough for sure.
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Originally posted by Maniac
Spitfire708,
I was thinking the same thing, the F-16 should be up there, its the most beutiful AC ever :)
Thank u, i mean this plane was exported to so many countries and is multi role
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It's fun to try but I cant put 10 in a box, there is just to many good ones that changed history. I think it boils down to opinions and you know what they say about those.
What about the SBD that changed the battle of Midway.
The MIG 15 that shocked the west in really trying.
The Vulcan, the brother to the B-52 that helped keep the peace.
The Comet first jet airliner.
etc etc etc
Fun stuff but don't mean a thing (cept the Cessna thats correct!)
:D
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I kinda think the Piper Cub deserves honorable mention at
least, helped train generations of pilots.
Rino
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How dya want them to be objective when their sources where they learned the history of aviation is biased?
Most of the US books on aviation I've read are like that. Europeans aren't, with some exceptions.
I'm afraid that they also believe that they invented the first car or hot water :rofl
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And future generations of Americans will belive that THEY invented French Fries i.e Freedom Fries!
Its the American Way!!! :p
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Here we go, Down with the US again.
The EU culture is taught degrade and be-little the US, you are taught we are uncouth, crass and uncivilized, we are young therefore without culture. You are told we are all gun crazed cowboys, and everything wrong in the world is our fault. Yep we have heard it loud and clear guys its not a secret any longer. When we do something well it’s just luck or somehow a part was made in Germany. When we have a victory we celebrate alone when we have a failure you guys remind us often, like the spoiled older brother you want the lime light and neither support or encourage. But like the spoiled older brother you want us there, to be of service when needed, when you need an extra hand, some money or just to be cheered up when you feel bad about your age or thinning hair. Yep we have a bias, we learned it from our older brothers, oh we also have a sprit earned from being on our own and working hard without the time off for fun accorded the older and more privileged.
Could it be we have our attitudes as a defense against this kind of feeling or perhaps just because we are made up of miscreant Europeans?
Good Day, :)
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1. Fokker E-I Eindecker
2. Ford 4-AT-E Tri-motor
3. Douglas DC-3
4. Martin M-130 Flying Boat (Pan-Am Clippers)
5. Messerschmitt Bf109
6. North American P-51
7. Me 262
8. Bell X-1
9. DH Comet
10. Boeing 747
Runners up
Boeing 707
Boeing B-29 Superfortress
McDonnel Douglas F-4 Phantom
Lockheed SR-71
Airbus A340
McDonnel Douglas F-15 Eagle
DH Tiger Moth
BAe/Aerospatiale Concorde
Tronsky
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How about the zero?
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That list is funny. As is Scooter's reaction.
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Spit I
Spit 5
Spit 9
Spit 14
:D
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I'd keep DC-3, Curtiss Jenny, and 707 on that list. I think that Comet and Concorde should be worth mentioning.
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Harrier should definitely have been on that list. Jenny could easily be replaced by the Tiger Moth.
The list was obviously written by some reporter who popped down to their local bookshop.
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Originally posted by mora
I'd keep DC-3, Curtiss Jenny, and 707 on that list. I think that Comet and Concorde should be worth mentioning.
Dunno where the actual list is online, but many aircraft suppossedly made the runners up or honorable mention list.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Harrier should definitely have been on that list. Jenny could easily be replaced by the Tiger Moth.
The list was obviously written by some reporter who popped down to their local bookshop.
The list was made after asking for nominations via email. Just read the article. It tells you that and also discusses several of their choices.
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What about Finnish Brewster model 239?
Highest kill ratio of any WW2 plane type and also highest scoring single airframe.
Made in US and modify by Fins.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Harrier should definitely have been on that list. Jenny could easily be replaced by the Tiger Moth.
The list was obviously written by some reporter who popped down to their local bookshop.
AFAIK Jenny was the first massproduced airplane. Tiger Moth came later.
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I would have definitely included the DH Comet and the Harrier.
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10 isnt enough
Planes like the F-15 and its amazing kill-death ratio, the Harrier and countless others help forge the industry
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No one mentioned the F-14! This plane is one of the most technologically advanced planes of its time and set a basis for what future fighters should be capable of. Lets remember the Tomcat been around since 73' and still in service.
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Wright Flyer
Sopwith Camel
Spirit of St. Louis
Pan-Am Clipper
B-17
Me-262
Bell X-1
Mig-15/F-86
F-100 Super Sabre (first level-flight supersonic fighter)
Mig-21 (for the effect it had on U.S. fighter design)
This list should include the top 20 aircraft designs. Ten is too few.
Regards, Shuckins
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Agree with Shuckins completely, except that I'd put Bf 109 to that list.
- 10 years in frontline service (and almost 30 years with Spanish airforce)
- mainstay of one of most feared airforces and a symbol of an era
- one of most influential planes on fighter design of its time
- mount of highest scoring aces in history of aerial combat
- most produced fighter in history
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What?..No Beech 18?
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Wright Flyer
Sopwith Camel
Spirit of St. Louis
Pan-Am Clipper
B-17
Me-262
Bell X-1
Mig-15/F-86
F-100 Super Sabre (first level-flight supersonic fighter)
Mig-21 (for the effect it had on U.S. fighter design)
This list should include the top 20 aircraft designs. Ten is too few.
Regards, Shuckins
mig-15/F-86 are two different planes. Have to pick one. Also I would remove F-100 and add the SR-71. Concorde belongs on that list I think.
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Better late than never, but heres a tribute to 100 years of powered, controlled flight:
http://www.centennialofflight.gov/sights/movie_media8.htm
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In order of importance starting with number 1:
1. "Hydrodyne" anti-gravity lift vehicle. (Water pump rocket.)
2. Helium powered balloon.
3. Kinetic energy glider. (Rubber band, balsa wood aircraft.)
4. High revolution turbine sounding DC-9 floor jet. (Toy that rolls across floor. Steel jet with wheels.)
5. Battery powered helicopter with 6' control cable.
6. Aerodynamically stable, gravity guided discoid aircraft. (Frisbee)
7. Stealth "folded" 2-Dimensional lift bodies. (Paper airplanes)
8. Ground tethered lift bodies. (Kites)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Can only think of 8 at this time. Would include model aircraft, but they're just to look at...not to fly.
:D
Les
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My list (fame based):
1) DC-3 and B-747 (in par) - The more long life airplane in history, still operative in mountains of South America, the airplane that brings the commercial liners to acces by the less than richest, and THE LINER, the archetype of intercontinental and economic flying.
2) Fokker Dr.I THE FIGHTER, in the colors of M. Richtofen, is the archetype of the WWI air combat era planes in the entire world.
3) Tiger moth THE TRAINER (well.. in par with the AT-6 TEXAN ) 'nuff said :)
4) P51D the "we saved your a..." bird ;) , most famous WWII fighter, even if we KNOW that its fame is not so really earned, more a propaganda heritage.
5) B17 Flying Fortress THE BOMBER. the most famous city destroyer in the air history.
6) Me-262 THE TECHNOLOGY. was the more advanced fighter of its times, and famous 'cause it was one step ahead.
7) Concorde THE SST (well, the only one :) ) people dont give a s... about economics, the fascination to fly (or dream to.. $$$ ) at more than mach 1 in an airliner is what really people remember.
8) F-117 THE STEALTH - even if it's a brick with wings, there is still people that believe thay are OPTICAL invisible, lol!! :D
9) MIG - xx THE ENEMA - Halliwud taught us to not care about the xx number it's is anyway the enema to shot down in big numbers.
10) Piper CUB THE CAR OF SKY - the first real personal plane, trainer of more than a generation of pilots, such a list cannot forget this one.
"Being willing is not enough... We MUST DO."
Leonardo da Vinci
I like this man, I dont know why ;)
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Naso,
Sorry, but I gotta disagree about the Concorde. Sure it was a supersonic passenger jet, but it would have to make three trips across the Atlantic to deliver the same load as a 747. For the companies that produced it, it became a white elephant.
Regards, Shuckins
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Naso,
Sorry, but I gotta disagree about the Concorde. Sure it was a supersonic passenger jet, but it would have to make three trips across the Atlantic to deliver the same load as a 747. For the companies that produced it, it became a white elephant.
Regards, Shuckins
No, Shuc, re-read the very first line.
it's a fame list, not an economic, or technic or whatever. ;)
Or your political agenda forbid you, FOR ONCE, to ease up and have some fun?
;) :D
[edit] Well, I have to admit, the 747 it's shining for it's absence in my list.. mmmm... let's see... editing[/edit]
:)
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The C-130 should be on anyones list. Look at the the past 45 years in combat and she is always there.. This is an MC-130E Combat Talon....
SkipNutz
(http://[img]http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_217_1072110010.jpg)[/IMG]
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Given the group of people who read this bbs, I can certainly understand why so many would choose the B-17 as the bomber of mention, but I can almost guarantee that over the past 40+ years the B-52 has done more damage in more places with a wider variety of munitions. And I halfway agree with T1loady, the C-130 has been around just as long, picking up seemlessly where the C-47 left off. Surely it deserves some sort of honorable mention.
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The Wright flyer is the only I can agree with.
The rest should be attached to a sentinal event in history as does the Wright flyer.
Maybe the Spirit of St Louis or the Albatross (first human powered flight).
If we are talking about powered flight only maybe we should included Apollo or Soyus. So much more then just flying a wing airplane. Helicopters? maybe the R4?
Food for thought
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Must include the Mig 15 - Just a groundbreaking, West-shaking design.
I'd have to say no to the Comet. Just because it was first jetliner doesn't make it a solid choice, even for runner up. It was actually a weak design, prone to metal fatigue and pressure problems.
What's with this guy's hair? ====> :rofl
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Originally posted by Virage
Wright Flier didn't make the top 10?
The article intended it to be the top ten to include with the Wright Flyer.