Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Sabre on December 24, 2003, 06:17:45 PM
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"Attack on Darwin"
Starting in February 1942, the Japanese Navy and Air Forces launched a series of attacks on the Australian port of Darwin. The ANZAC and USAF forces were equipped with a mixed bag of P-40s, Hudsons, and a handful of Spitfires. Interestingly, the Spitfire pilots, who were fresh from combat in England, expected to eat Zeros for lunch, but instead suffered some serious setbacks. They quickly learned the hard lessons already absorbed by the Allied pilots in theater, that you don't turn with a Zeke, but used B&Z and wingman tactics. Compounding their problem was the inherent complexity of the Spitfire, which had a dismal in-service rate in the harsh South Pacific theater.
Terrain: The Slot
Target Hardness:
2,000 lbs required to kill hangers; hardness of other objects are MA typical.
Downtimes:
Hangers - 15 min
Ack - 20 min
Supplies (fuel/ammo, etc) - 30 min
All other - 30 min
Order of Battle:
ANZAC: P-40B, Spitfire-I (two bases only), A-24 (SBD), C-47, all the M's, PT boats.
Allied DE fleet w/LVTs and PT only.
IJN/IJAA: A6M2, Val, Kate, C-47, all the M's.
IJN CV fleet: A6M2, Val, Kate, PT boats
IJN DE fleet LVT's and PT boats
All other fleets will be moved out of range and changed to neutral country. I left the Boston-III out of the mix because it is so fast, and because the early Hudsons it would be substituting for were used primarily as reccon birds at this place and time. I left out the Ki67 because it also is a bit uber for this fighter set, being a poor stand-in for the early Betty bombers it would be standing-in for. This is primarily a tactical air set up. While base capture will be allowed, the lack of medium and heavy bombers will make it hard for either side. The SBD is a late war model, but I felt it necessary to include some Allied attack capability, as neither of the Allied fighters carries a bomb. The US 5th AF operated the Army version of the SBD, the A-24. The Spitfires actually deployed to Darwin were mostly the Spit-V model. I’m using the Spit-I to make up for the fact that we don’t have the A6M3 to counter it, plus to simulate the poor performance of the Spits due to maintenance issues. Finally, the P-40B is being used even though the US and ANSAC forces were beginning to get the E models early in 1942, again as a concession to the A6M2 it is matched agains.
Historical Note: A Japanese invasion of Darwin was a very real concern to the Australian government from 1942 all the way through mid-1943. This fear was reinforced by the very active air war that was fought over and around Darwin during the whole of this period.
Set up by Sabre
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Great set-up!
And great justifications!
eskimo
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Oh noooooo! Spitfires!!!!!!!
;0)
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This looks like a pretty neat fight forming up! Zeke vs Spit this could be a hell of a lot of fun. A matchup that I've never seen before and one that I suspect is viciously rare.
One small problem but I understand why you made the mistake. We have a PTO setup but you forgot to include my Hellcat. It is OK you can add it later. Perk it 100pts and put it at the most rear base you can find. I'll still fly it! ;)
Plz remember to add DAR and Fuel settings in the MOTD.
Merry Christmas!
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Look great setup, I was looking forward to see PTO again and I might fly with Arlo as Wingman or the rest of VF-17 or VF27. :aok
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P-40B, Spit vs A6M2 THANK YOU!
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the zeeks are going to eat the p40b's apart just like they did in that one early setup i forget its name
o and the spitfire is going to be dead meat for the zeros
it does hold a small speed and climb over the zero but like i said its small
and we all no what the spitdweebs are going to do
turn burn turn burn turn burn:rofl
but im not whining im just telling everbody whats going to happen:)
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the spit 1 is perhaps 40mph faster than the zero....
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Originally posted by storch
:rolleyes: the zeke has 60 rds per gun. the p40 has an iron tail = 1 per sortie, maybe. the spit in AH enjoys an equal turnability with zeke and better speed as well. The 8 .303's will shread the ricepaper lighter fluid soaked zekes with ease. then some clever allies will also TnB with the SBD hitting u coming & going. what's not to love? :aok really should be the A6M5.
The Pee-Farty will only shoot down the A6M2s that happen to fly in front of it. The Spit turns as well .. yeah ... shouldn't be too much a problem, right? It may try to break and run if it gets nervous. I would shoot it before it gets too far away. A pair of .22s can shred an A6M2 if you let `em. Never take an SBD for granted. The A6M5 compresses more and doesn't turn as well.
Merry Christmas, Storch. :D
P.S. There's as good a chance that my fellow squad-mates and I will fly axis as there is a chance we'll fly allied this set. I like that Spit but when the F4U isn't featured in a Pac setup or a Euro setup is running, we'll be checking the roster and map to see who the underdog is.
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Originally posted by storch
:rolleyes: the zeke has 60 rds per gun. the p40 has an iron tail = 1 per sortie, maybe. the spit in AH enjoys an equal turnability with zeke and better speed as well. The 8 .303's will shread the ricepaper lighter fluid soaked zekes with ease. then some clever allies will also TnB with the SBD hitting u coming & going. what's not to love? :aok really should be the A6M5.
lol, zeke2 is more then enough.
as usual i will fly for the lower #d side.
great matchup, 1 of the bests! :)
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Storch,
After chatting with Brady during the last Okinawa setup I decided to do some studying on this subject. Ready for the really scary conclusion?
The IJ forces never had any serious JABO capability. None. Certainly nothing similar to the 110 or P47. The KI45 carried 1 37mm gun and 2 20mm guns. Flew with a load of about 1000lbs of ORD. The best of their bombers carried a bit over 2000lbs (4 x 250kg) bombs.
The best possible fit for the KI45 is the 110G2. The fit isn't that great. It carries twice as much ordnance in its' bay and has the option of loading even more on the wing hardpoints. It also carries far more ammo and flies faster.
Maybe substituting the TBM and not allowing carrier ops with it would take up some of the "hvy bomber" slack. In many ways it matches up. However the TBM can carry rockets as well so this isn't that great.
If there was a way to limit droppable ordnance loadouts it'd be easier to find a good substitute but without this ability it is fairly impossible.
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Sure but it'd be nice to have a skin. *ShruG*
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i suspect that if IJA will have the 110c4
most will fly it instead of the zeke for A2A sorties
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For the record allow me to restate that all you allies are nothing but a bunch of... wait, that's not what I wanted to say. Ah yes bring on the CHog the P38 and any other AC the allies need. they will die just the same.
Sound familure storch. I notice that if storch doesnt have the better plane...he whines just like the rest of us.
SO storch, I re-quote you...give'em the 110, they will just die the same :aok
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Help me out here.
A6M2 and A6M3 have the same fighter armament, correct?
M3 has about 190 more HP than the M2 at takeoff, has a "clipped wing" wingspan about a meter shorter than the M2, weighs about 200 pounds more than the M2, has about 10% higher wing loading than the M2, has essentially the same climbrate as the M2 but cruises about 20 mph faster.
Did I miss any major difference there? Is there that great a difference in performance in an AH environment?
Just asking.
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Originally posted by storch
:rolleyes: the spit in AH enjoys an equal turnability with zeke
LOL:rofl equal turnability with the zeek you got to be kidding be right the the older zeek owns everthing in a turnfight it can even beat the val i think
anyone that makes that statment does not know the zero it flips around the sky like a helcopter with unreal turning and looping ability
the only way the spit can win is by the HO and boom zoom
and of course team work can get the job done
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Toad,
They are refering to the A6M5. The A6M3 is not available in AH....or did I miss something?
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Originally posted by Sabre
"Attack on Darwin"
The Spitfires actually deployed to Darwin were mostly the Spit-V model. I’m using the Spit-I to make up for the fact that we don’t have the A6M3 to counter it, plus to simulate the poor performance of the Spits due to maintenance issues.
Set up by Sabre
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The a6m2 has type 99 Mk 1 guns the a6m3 has type 99 Mk 2s.
The a6m3 model 32 had clipped wings.
The a6m3 model 22 did not, it had the same wings as the a6m2 model 21 which had folding wing tips for storage aboard carriers.
The a6m3 model 32 saw service before the model 22. It had clipped wings to avoid the production complication of the A6M2 Type 21's folding wingtips. It carried less fuel so there was a reversion to the full-span wing with folding tips with the A6M3 Model 22.
I see no reason why the spit 5 shouldn’t be included especially over the spit Mk 1. If you are concerned with the firepower issues with the type 99 Mk 1s then sub the a6m5 for the a6m3. There are not that many differences for it to matter. At least not to the same degree as going from the spit 5 to the spit 1.
Its ok to be an F4u hater, after all these guys are a dime a dozen in the ct. But don't hate the spitfire. Most spit pilots like to fight rather then run or suicide jabo. :D
oh BTW Merry Christmas........
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Honestly... I don't think there is anything wrong with the setup as shown. Really:aok
The fighters are well matched. The hvy bomber issue is not an issue. Both sides have limited JABO ability. This setup is OK except for one small detail. My Hellcat is missing.;)
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Ammo load on the A6M3 was also greater at 100rpg as aposed to 60 rpg for the A6M2.
Realy I think sabres set up is a nice one, more is not always better and this is defentaly somthing new which will be fun to try if for no other reasion than that alone.
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Originally posted by storch
Would it be christmas if we didn't ellicit a solid NO from CT staff :rofl wait till 4/1/2004 :aok
NO! :)
Seriously, the P-38 didn't make an impact in this theater until about Jan 1943, as I recall, and it was the F model. A6M5 is late '44 a/c, which is tougher than either the M2 or M3, has better guns/ammo load, and will stay with a Hellcat in a dive (in AH, at least). Hurricane did not see service in this theater, as far as my sources say. While the air offensive against Darwin went on into '43, I chose to push the time window more towards the beginning, i.e. early '42. Earliest raids on Darwin were in Feb '42, and were conducted from carriers. After Rabaul was captured, they began making raids from there, though it was a long haul. In fact, only the Betty, escorted by the Zero, had the range to hit Darwin from Rabaul. That's why the Allies were on the defensive at Darwin until after the success of the Buna offensive. This set up is my tribute to the gallant defense of Australia by the intrepid ANZAC forces, with help from the initially weak US 5th AF. And as Brady mentioned, I like the fact that the plane match ups will be something not seen in the CT before, or in the MA for that matter. Give it a chance.
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Originally posted by Batz
Its ok to be an F4u hater, after all these guys are a dime a dozen in the ct. But don't hate the spitfire. Most spit pilots like to fight rather then run or suicide jabo.
F4U hater?
F4U whiner is the correct term, I believe.
Brady! Save us from the F4U!!!!
Ahhh ... if you hadn't have bailed on the CT altogether he may have kept more vigilance.
See? Sometimes tossing bait in the pond will just get you in deep water and missing some limbs. :D
Haven't seen hide nor hair of yas since I got rid of that crappy Logitech. C'mon back and us "dime a dozen" Corsair pilots'll give you a "warm reception." Heh. Yeah .... riiiiight. Like you'd risk .... whatever it is you're afraid to risk. :aok
Not gonna happen ... we know.
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Most spit pilots like to fight rather then run or suicide jabo.
Basicaly is what the axis guys have been doing for the past four weeks, suicide runs that is:rolleyes:
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I think you have a nice little set up there Sabre. Looks like fun with room to expand later to include more AC, if you want.
:aok
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Originally posted by Sabre
NO! :)
Ahhh the spirit of giving is alive and well this Christmas;)
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I thought the Model 32 had Type I cannon and the Model 22 the Type 2 Cannon.
343 or so 32's and 560 Modle 22's or something like that, right?
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To the best of my Knowledge(refrences) this is true, the first production A6M3's had the type 99 MK I's althought they had the larger 100 rpg ammo load from the get go prety much(the 4 produced and on), all other A6M3 production was with the type 99MK II. Production numbers for the variouis types are hard to arive at aparently do to some considerable varances in production figures from the factorys involved.
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Originally posted by storch
i agree with batz put in the spit V, leave the A6M2 add the A6M5, add the Hurri which was also there and gimme a Ki45 (Bf 110) properly skinnned so i can Jabo, and a partridge in a pear tree (better have pears on it too) Oh almost forgot didn't the aussies have the P40F at this time? don't forget the P38.
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
Storch this is not just aimed at you. How many people have complained lately about wanting the CT staff, to quit trying to balance the setups for fairness? Demanding more historical accuracey. Everyone read the scenario behind the set-up. It's Darwin early 1942. It's based on the actual raids the IJN did on Australia. The aircraft included in this setup are as close as you can get to the actual aircraft using the AH stable.
So before we start filling this thread with aircraft we all think should be included, or even worse the accusations of Axis, or Allied bias . Remember the battle Sabre's trying to re-create, and the time period. Lets just fly the thing .
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A6M5 as a stand in as an A6M3 and Spit V makes a lot more sense.
As for servicability, thats never modelled in the CT or any other place in AH. All a/c (even Japanese) had problems with the Pacific climate, as they did with the desert. The Ki-61 had bad serviceability in the Solomons and New Guinea as well. IJ metal could rust too, shocking as that sounds.
"The aircraft included in this setup are as close as you can get to the actual aircraft using the AH stable."
Not sure I get this at all really. The RAAF operated the Spit V there and its being left out, along with the P-40E, also absent, in their place, are 2 a/c that were not there, the P-40B and the Spitfire I. All that just for want of an A6M3? who's going to complain if the A6M5 stands in? at least its a workable setup then. No Betty?
The Seafire actually makes a better "Darwin Spit", because of the markings I think.
...oh btw, there were no P-38s, Hurricanes, or Ki-45s deployed in that campaign.
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Why cant we sub the N1K2 for an a6m3
Anyway this looks good to me thank you for leaving out the sst bombers.:)
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no, no, no, you can't do that..... if you did then you'd have to sub the CHOG for the N1K2!
:p
Originally posted by keyapaha
Why cant we sub the N1K2 for an a6m3
Anyway this looks good to me thank you for leaving out the sst bombers.:)
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Originally posted by Sabre
I’m using the Spit-I to make up for the fact that we don’t have the A6M3 to counter it, plus to simulate the poor performance of the Spits due to maintenance issues.
Thank you for running this setup, Sabre. I've been wondering how the Spit I would match against the Zeke for quite awhile.
Now I know.
- oldman
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I like the Spit-1 in this set-up, it gives something for the A6M2 to look at while I dive on them in my P-40B and kill a few zekes :rofl
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The USAAF's 33rd Fighter Squadron was at Darwin at the time of the Japanese raid (February '42). They flew P-40Es. They were waiting for clear weather to ferry over to Timor, guided by a B-17.
My regards,
Widewing
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Its all about Tactics in the CT. Nobody wants to do it, they just want to turnfight, kill then be killed, replane and do it again.
The P-40E and the Spit V would have slaghtered them with thier current CT Furball "State of Mind".
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I'd like to see the a similar PTO setup with the following suggested planeset.
ALL
M's
C-47
Allied
P-40E
Spit V
Boston III
Cruiser Fleet
Axis
A6M2
A6M5b
KI-67
D3A
B5N
2 CV Groups & 1 Escort
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Originally posted by scJazz
I'd like to see the a similar PTO setup with the following suggested planeset.
ALL
M's
C-47
Allied
P-40E
Spit V
Boston III
Cruiser Fleet
Axis
A6M2
A6M5b
KI-67
D3A
B5N
2 CV Groups & 1 Escort
allies will completely dominate the AA aspect.. give the axis the Ki61
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give the axis the Ki61
Then the Axis will dominate the AA aspect. They will have a plane that can catch and out turn the P-40E.
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The only interesting change the Tony would add is BnZ capability for IJ forces. Which could be a good thing. Plenty of pilots enjoy BnZ combat. One of the problems with the Darwin setup was that Allies had this ability and did not have to worry about Axis planes doing it to them.
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Originally posted by scJazz
I'd like to see the a similar PTO setup with the following suggested planeset.
ALL
M's
C-47
Allied
P-40E
Spit V
Boston III
Cruiser Fleet
Axis
A6M2
A6M5b
KI-67
D3A
B5N
2 CV Groups & 1 Escort
I'd be willing to try this set up next go around, just to see how the texture of the battle would change.
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Don't pout, Storch. I felt the set up deserved a full trial, and while not everyone cared for it, enough did that I let it go the full week. While there have been more popular set ups, there have also been less popular ones. I went on-line several times where there were in excess of 30 people on. Not stellar, but still a fun number of people. I tend not to "fix" a set up unless it's truly broken. I'll I'm saying here is that I think it's worth trying again with the later planeset, both because some have requested it and because I'd like to see how it changes the flavor of the combat. Anyway, I thank you all for the feedback.