Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on December 25, 2003, 02:06:28 PM

Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Citabria on December 25, 2003, 02:06:28 PM
edit:

Requesting:
sky
r 200
g 222
b252

fog
r219
g233
b255

fog 17 miles
bumpmaps disabled above ground level

also requesting more sky color layers

reults with color changes fog 17miles and no bumpmaps...
(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/ah2tweakednobumpmap.jpg)  


the eto scheme of ah2 is very dreery.
it can have vibrant colors and look authentic. it dosnt have to look dull and grey, most of all the sky in ah is being ignored as is the ground when viewed from higher altitude. I hope these pictures can convey what I can not type as eloquently when I say the atmosphere of AH needs work.

(http://www.brooksart.com/TyphoonsrhineHR.jpg)

(http://www.brooksart.com/Channelfront.jpg)

(http://www.brooksart.com/Steinhoff.jpg)

(http://www.brooksart.com/Dragons.jpg)

(http://www.brooksart.com/Duxfordeagles.jpg)

(http://www.brooksart.com/Ploesti.jpg)

or maybe a pacific theme...

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?placesearch=North%20Field&distinct_entry=true

(http://www.brooksart.com/Rabaul.jpg)

(http://www.brooksart.com/Alicante.jpg)

(http://www.brooksart.com/Marineace.jpg)
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: _Schadenfreude_ on December 25, 2003, 02:27:32 PM
dead link...very dreery indeed...
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Citabria on December 25, 2003, 06:52:40 PM
blue sky, note the higher up you travel in the atmosphere
gradually the upper regions of the sky turn a deeper blue.
travel up far enough and you will see stars :D

(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/Guam1945p51.jpg)

(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/0004-sky_over_singapore.jpg)

(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/guam1945b29.jpg)
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Citabria on December 25, 2003, 06:58:01 PM
clouds

(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/guam1945p38.jpg)

(http://thepluginsite.com/products/photogalaxy/contactsheets2/clouds.jpg)

(http://thepluginsite.com/products/photogalaxy/contactsheets2/puffyclouds.jpg)

(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/guam1945hangars.jpg)
dosn't this pic of guam 1945 make you want to just go flying
 through those clouds? :D
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Citabria on December 25, 2003, 07:54:03 PM
landscape

England...

(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/englandfarmland.jpg)

(http://www.brooksart.com/Bellehomelg.jpg)

(http://www.leafpile.com/TravelLog/England/Cotswold/Landscape.jpg)

(http://www.kent.gov.uk/sp/countrysideaccess/routes/photo/High1.jpg)

Germany...

(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/2314-aerial-germany.jpg)

(http://whitey.net/GE20010721_CountrySide.jpg)
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Citabria on December 25, 2003, 08:31:58 PM
other game developers solution to atmospheric effects and colors...

IL2FB
(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/IL2fb190.jpg)

(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/sunIL2FB.gif)

FS2004
(http://www.microsoft.com/games/flightsimulator/img/screens1/ss6.jpg)

(http://www.microsoft.com/games/flightsimulator/img/screens1/ss24.jpg)
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Halo on December 25, 2003, 10:25:11 PM
Amen, Citabria -- nice collection of how arenas should look.  WarBirds lost lots of its appeal with its dismal dreary blue-brown-gray too-dark vistas.  

And as others have pointed out, not much point in modeling WWII skies too foggy or hazy or other bad weather conditions because planes often did not fly in lousy visibility, at least when they could avoid it.  

In addition, as many of your photos exemplify, Aces High II should allow exterior viewing like the premier system in MS Flight Simulator 2004.  Few if any pilots can fight better using exterior views than the usual interior view from the cockpit.  

A whole new dimension of enjoyment would be added with prettier (yes, p r e t t i e r) environments and exterior views on line (not to mention the incredibly better still pics and mopics).
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Citabria on December 25, 2003, 10:37:28 PM
agreed on warbirds3. I hated the way warbirds 3 atmosphere looks, very dark and dreery like the sun ceased to shine in it. nothing bright or vibrant at all in that game.

external views... this is a graphics only topic not a online game settings topic dont derail it please.
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: JustJim on December 26, 2003, 03:16:05 AM
How are you supposed to fit all that detail in around a 50 mb file?

I mean sure I dowload 200+ mb demos on cable but can you hear the whining now,  JESUS the file is over 50 mb and I have dialup


JustJim1
<< Dragon Hawks >>
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Citabria on December 26, 2003, 03:56:34 AM
its somthing to aspire to.
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: JustJim on December 26, 2003, 04:05:26 AM
I agree and I will always say what HTC does in 40 to 50 mb is incredible, can you even phathom what it would be if it were 650+ mb like IL2

I think those boys at Ubi would be shocked.

JustJim1
<< Dragon Hawks >>
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: artik on December 26, 2003, 04:48:59 AM
Guyes you want realistic pictures? :D
Purchase an aircraft and fly!!!

How many developers HTC has? Like Microsoft? I do not think so.

What do you want them to bring to AHII first?
[list=1]


So what do you think is first?

I think graphics is the last thing in all this long list!

And if you do not have enough imagination to feel flying over England when you participate in BoB CT or SEA...... I think graphics will never solve this problem.
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: CPR on December 26, 2003, 11:08:24 AM
I dont think changing a few pixels from brown- grey to yellows or reds will make the DL any larger.  Brighten it up some.
Great pics Fester.  One reason I like to fly is the awesome beauty that can only be seen at 15k.
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Citabria on December 26, 2003, 12:22:36 PM
always with you what can't be done artik.
HTC has a way of figuring out how to do things people like you think can't be done.

as to whats first? thats htc's call not yours or mine

correct cpr

the bigest help that ah2 could be given would be by using the pictures above as a reference for more realistic color changes (more greens and yellows, more blue)

changes to the sky and fog processes and filters.

better or brighter lighting techniques.

more work on the fog and sky and land transitions.
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Tilt on December 26, 2003, 02:05:34 PM
I think festers point is very valid............

There may be arguements as to how real a "blue skies" vista is but at the end of the day its very clear that we feel happier in such environments.

How many of us feel a little depressed flying under blanket cloud in AH1? How welcoming is the blue sky above it?

I for one get depressed playing many games where gloom and shade is used to restrict the horizon and depth of detail required there in.....................

HTC may be forced to adopt some form of method to restrict depth of detail............ I would prefer something like "haze" (colour blending) rather than fog (detail masking) ............ I believe that what ever method is used it should optimise the "blue sky" effect to the fullest possible and be such that future hardware upgrades can make it more possible.

As for actual colours we presently see in the beta i assume these can be changed to brighten stuff up a bit. For me the use of Olive intead of  bright green (for grass) is appropriate however the shade is too dull IMO.

This is an easy thing to correct in the present TE.  

I believe that the alpha mask used over the tiles darkens them in some way........ this exaggerates the dull olive colour chosen.

In the TE the sky is a "hidden colour" but I am sure its as easily changed by HTC.
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: BenDover on December 26, 2003, 02:38:40 PM
No need to complain about the sky, its now extremly easy to change the colour through the arena options.

Normal sky
(http://mysite.freeserve.com/mrbd/normsky.jpg)

Brighter sky setting
(http://mysite.freeserve.com/mrbd/sky.jpg)

Brighter haze setting
(http://mysite.freeserve.com/mrbd/haze.jpg)
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Tilt on December 26, 2003, 03:42:21 PM
Bendover is quite correct (I should have investigated more)........much of this could be improved just by choosing other arena settings although there is a function of the alpha map used in bump mapping darkening the ground tiles.

The following is with bump map on and we can clearly see the rectangular aspect as the bump map is engaged with range.

(http://www.tilt.clara.net/pics/ah2wbump.jpg)

Also the sky (bluer)and fog(slightly bluer) colours have been changed below as well as the light being changed from white to white with a hint of blue. I also changed the sun to white with a hint of yellow. Bump mapping is now removed.

(http://www.tilt.clara.net/pics/ah2blu.jpg)

low down this still gives a very nice aspect of land and sky and the floor tiles look brighter.

(http://www.tilt.clara.net/pics/ah2nuset.jpg)


Obviously it would be nice still to enjoy bump mapping so i would hope that the "transparant" part of the Bump map alpha mask can be made truely transparant.

I think it would be neat if the fog was either able to go out further than 17 miles or its denisity/distance gradient as haze be changed to make it less obscuring on the near side of its band.

The light from the sun would benefit from the ability to adjust its brilliance as well as its colour.
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Citabria on December 26, 2003, 03:52:16 PM
agreed turning off bumpmapping makes a serious improvement in the look of the game when in flight. perhaps the bumps should only be visable when right next to the ground the way the current bump mapping is in ah1. this would be a much better configuration
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Citabria on December 26, 2003, 04:10:07 PM
sky
r 200
g 222
b252

fog
r219
g233
b255

fog 17 miles
bumpmaps disabled

I found these sky setting using photoshop and pictures of real sky over england. I concentrated on the horizon transitions and recomend to htc that they enable more sky layers to simulate the gradual darkening of the sky when looking directly up or traveling at higher altitudes OR...

enable a gradient map that transitions between two colors, one at the fog level and one at the very high altitudes of the sky.
(http://www.r0013636.hostultra.com/uploads/data/media/1/ah2tweakednobumpmap.jpg)
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Tdawg1321 on December 26, 2003, 09:15:58 PM
guys dont forget this is an ONLINE flight sime.  Online games are much more intense on your computer.  All you need is one person to be running crap with all that stuff and it makes warping and everything all that much worse.  I personally dont even think the graphics in AH1 are bad at all.  I would be perfectly happy with AH1 graphics jsut add the more detailed objects, like the hangers, ships and such.  I dont need to see detailed terrain when i fly.  I dont know how many of you do much sight seeing when you're flying around i usually am looking for more planes to shoot, the only time is see the ground is when flying over a hill or plummeting to my death.  I personally think it would be much better to keep the same graphics and upgrade the gameplay, like they will eventually do with TOD

Just my 2 cents
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Citabria on December 26, 2003, 09:28:41 PM
its not about adding more crap its about the colors used and the filters and processes used
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Tdawg1321 on December 26, 2003, 11:31:25 PM
last i checked putting trees and such on the ground is adding stuff.  AH1 graphics are awesome for an online sim.  Give me more interactive squadron stuff to do, mission objectives and such.  leave the graphics a lone.  Thats all i was sayin sorry if i ruffled anybodies feathers
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Tilt on December 27, 2003, 03:59:41 AM
whilst we are discussing the colour of sky over jolly old blighty...............

This was taken a few moments ago at 09:45 sat 27th Dec From my back garden.

The view is to the South West toward Hinton on the Hedges air field (just the other side of the farm on the hill) The sun is out and still low in the South East. I am taking it from the shade of my house.

The vista is one of light almost whispy scatterred cloud.

(http://www.tilt.clara.net/pics/sw27thdec.jpg)

I think the colouring as shown above is the same as I now see out my window
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Kweassa on December 27, 2003, 02:12:13 PM
Tilt!

 May I ask what your settings are on that last pic of yours??

 I really like it!  :eek:   and in fact, I want my AH2 to be just like it!! :aok
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: TweetyBird on December 27, 2003, 05:15:45 PM
I have to agree, the current fog and color scheme is gloomy and depressing.
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Barney Fife on December 27, 2003, 07:23:04 PM
I wasn't aware that war was supposed to be *bright* and *happy*.  War is hell, period.  Maybe you would be happier playing a Teletubbies game?

.....Or maybe HTC will see the light!  We need to come together, and stop this senseless violence against one another.  Instead of red meatballs on the Japanese planes, we could have peace symbols.  Ooo, and tye-dyed B17's.  Maybe the sun could have a big yellow :) with "Have a Nice Day!" on it.  The German cross could be replaced with Buddy Christ (because the Jesus cross is too depressing).  Oh how joyous it would be!

:eek:
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: vorticon on December 27, 2003, 07:53:41 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Barney Fife
I wasn't aware that war was supposed to be *bright* and *happy*.  War is hell, period.  Maybe you would be happier playing a Teletubbies game?


i want a good realistic looking sky...dovers last pic is precisly what it looks like (on a good day) around where i am :p
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Kweassa on December 27, 2003, 09:53:00 PM
Been fiddling with the settings, and I must say this is very significant in reproducing certain geographical locations!

 For instance, I've tried all sorts of things such as trying to reproduce overcast conditions, deep fog, tropical sun, tropical sky out at the sea and etc etc.. and it was a blast!!

 A piece of careful consideration that I never knew that it even existed.. wtg HTC!!!!

ps) I think we can even make some player guides for "Color Codes" for various situations.. like "R=x G=x B=x for Tropical scheme" or "R=a G=b B=c for Overcast scheme" and etc etc.
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: nopoop on December 28, 2003, 11:39:37 AM
Warbirds "fantastic" scenary was so dreary even WITH the sun at high noon that I contenplated sucking on a gunbarrel.

Gamma settings did no good. Just made for a brighter form of dreary..

Beta is too olivedrab on the terrain side. Good points all.
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: bigred on December 28, 2003, 11:50:10 AM
kinda off topic but maybe not...

I remember back in Art History class in college that the proper sense of light was a difficult thing for classical painters to master.  There were stories of master painters who moved form Europe to America who were all screwed up for months-years until they adjusted to the different light of their new surroundings and could alter thier pallettes.


On a side note for any 3d modelers out there 3D-studio MAX used to have a "sun" plugin with a map of the earth you could click on, then enter the time of day.  It would spit out the proper RGB value to set your Sun light to to exactly match local conditions...  It might help out our map-makers to dig it up. The sun in the North African desert at noon is very different to noon in Finland for example.


-Bigred
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: TweetyBird on December 28, 2003, 03:48:14 PM
>>I wasn't aware that war was supposed to be *bright* and *happy*. War is hell, period. Maybe you would be happier playing a Teletubbies game? <<

They're still working on the fm. As soon as they get the belly telivisions sets working, I'm gone :)

FYI, what makes war hell has nothing to do what you see in a video game. I think it would be safer copmparing it to paintball.
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Kweassa on December 28, 2003, 04:16:46 PM
True. Nature doesn't give a shi* about wars, no matter how destructive. I've seen color phots of Korean war, where a battle was taking place in early spring, and it was taken from above in a recon plane or something.

 The fighting people were dreery, the background, was not. When we think of a battle field in the dramatical sense, we always assume that it should be grey, dull, dark and dreery.

 Seeing people fight and die in a field of bright green, with beautiful patches of snow, lovely hills and blue sky of spring.. was really inspiring, and awkward.
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Kweassa on December 28, 2003, 09:54:27 PM
Here's my take on the color schemes, with the follwing settings:

ColorDuskFog[day]: 255/149/88
ColorDuskFog[dusk]: 255/138/36

ColorFog[day]: 179/208/238
ColorFog[dusk]: 131/142/187
ColorFog[night]: 21/20/16

ColorLight[day]: 255/255/255
ColorLight[dusk]: 249/202/142
ColorLight[night]: 181/180/173

ColorSky[day]: 149/195/255
ColorSky[dusk]: 111/123/196

ColorSun[day]: 250/255/245
ColorSun[dusk]: 253/240/185




(http://org.fighters.co.kr:9000/caribbean/old_gallery/upload/21171107112710620031229085554.jpg)
Default skies, in the middle of the day

(http://org.fighters.co.kr:9000/caribbean/old_gallery/upload/21171107112710620031229085913.jpg)
Trial flight of a G-10 in the new sky, same time of day as above pic

(http://org.fighters.co.kr:9000/caribbean/old_gallery/upload/21171107112710620031229090250.jpg)
Fw190A-5 trial flight; 3rd and 4th pics are evening skies

(http://org.fighters.co.kr:9000/caribbean/old_gallery/upload/21171107112710620031229090339.jpg)
Fw190D-9 trial flight


(http://org.fighters.co.kr:9000/caribbean/old_gallery/upload/21171107112710620031229090537.jpg)
P-51D trial flight


(http://org.fighters.co.kr:9000/caribbean/old_gallery/upload/21171107112710620031229090450.jpg)
Bonus pic: "Combat in the New Skies"
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Citabria on December 29, 2003, 02:52:30 AM
kweassa thats perfect!!!!!!!
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: nopoop on December 29, 2003, 11:17:02 AM
I agree !! That's not dreary, that's beautiful !!

My only concern would be moving the fog out to 17 miles from the original 10 as an arena setting. Frame hits on my dinasaur may be prohibitive.

AMD Athlon 1.2 T-bird
Epox 8K7A+ MB
Via 4 in 1 drivers
512 2100 DDR ram
IBM deskstar 20 gig hard drive
Asus GeForce v7100 pro 11.01c Asus drivers
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Tilt on December 29, 2003, 05:08:56 PM
Kweassa

very nice
 
Could you take a screen shot of your clip board with those arena settings showing?
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: JustJim on December 29, 2003, 05:21:46 PM
Gotta admit that does look great, my question is what kind of frames do you get and will that put a bit hit on others comps or make it better ?
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Kweassa on December 29, 2003, 05:32:58 PM
Sure Tilt, but what settings do you want the pic to show? :confused:  


 Justjim, this, is just a 'color correction' - no hit on frame rates whatsoever. However, the "17 mile visibility", that, takes a bit of a hit in the frame rate. But strangely though, I don't feel the frame rate hit when I'm viewing the terrain, only when I approach another frdly plane.
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Kweassa on December 29, 2003, 06:30:26 PM
Okay, here goes:

 Arena settings are as described in the previous post. Using 17 miles of visibility and bump mapping turned off.

 Note for disbelievers:  first pic, is original AH2 screen shot with size correction to fit forum(1600x1200 -> 600x450). Pictures from the second pic and on, are using 0.7 pixel gausian blur to 'trim' the rough edges, and same size correction. No other 'photoshoppin' at all.


(http://org.fighters.co.kr:9000/caribbean/old_gallery/upload/21171107112710620031230091243.jpg)
 19,000 feet



(http://org.fighters.co.kr:9000/caribbean/old_gallery/upload/21171107112710620031230091403.jpg)
 Lower altitudes



(http://org.fighters.co.kr:9000/caribbean/old_gallery/upload/21171107112710620031230091502.jpg)
 Cockpit view



(http://org.fighters.co.kr:9000/caribbean/old_gallery/upload/21171107112710620031230091542.jpg)
 Miscellaneous externals
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Citabria on December 29, 2003, 06:37:44 PM
the sky looks good but the ground textures are still just way to dark.

it gets really bad at sunrise sunset. everything gets even darker! :D
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: nopoop on December 29, 2003, 07:17:30 PM
I like the colors much better than the arena settings, problem is you lose the settings if you go online.

Gotta get at that olive drab terrain tho..

Looks good, hopefully Dale will make some color adjustments along these examples.
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Replicant on December 29, 2003, 07:21:48 PM
Good post Fester!

I agree that the ground textures look far too dark in AH2.  I think that the terrain in IL2FB and WWIIOL have got it just about right.

Also the first pictures you posted of English landscapes look more like early spring landscapes so everything is really lush green.  High/late summer then the greens will be fading slightly but the darker yellows (corn) will be more evident.  (The yellow in those pics are 'rape crops'.)
(http://www.kent.gov.uk/sp/countrysideaccess/routes/photo/High1.jpg)

Here's a few pics of the former Debden airfield viewed from different magnifications.  No particular reason for Debden but just to give a depth of scale to the countryside.  Also note that Debden now has agricultural crops on the airfield, this actually is rather relevent since this sort of camoflage would have been attempted in WW2 to disguise airfields.

England generally looks like this late spring/early summer.  Quite often people call it patchwork fields!

Spot Debden!
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_44_1072746731.jpg)

A littler closer
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_44_1072746749.jpg)

....and closer
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_44_1072746775.jpg)

......anyway to model detail from high to lower alts?
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_44_1072746808.jpg)
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Replicant on December 29, 2003, 08:05:59 PM
A few more British countryside pics....
(http://www.deltas.freeserve.co.uk/images/swview1.jpg)(http://www.deltas.freeserve.co.uk/images/ridgeway.jpg)
(http://www.deltas.freeserve.co.uk/images/grotto.jpg)(http://www.deltas.freeserve.co.uk/images/nwview.jpg)

Hazy view
(http://scripting.com/static/777/Dscn2017.jpg)
Lush...
(http://www.harkphoto.com/engroadtocoast.jpg)

July WW2?
(http://pages.zdnet.com/vancell/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/sidevua.jpg)
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Kweassa on January 06, 2004, 10:45:08 PM
*punt*
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: Reschke on January 06, 2004, 11:16:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Replicant


July WW2?
(http://pages.zdnet.com/vancell/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/sidevua.jpg)


Probably sometime between June and August of 1943. The red around the national insignia was used in that time frame.
Title: a guide for what ah2 sky and terrain should look like
Post by: BigGun on January 07, 2004, 11:09:11 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Citabria
the sky looks good but the ground textures are still just way to dark.

it gets really bad at sunrise sunset. everything gets even darker! :D


Of coarse ground textures get darker at sunrise, sunset. Color is really a refection of light source off of particals. Remove light source, color appearance is darker. With no light source, there is no color.