Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: AKcurly on December 30, 2003, 02:29:24 AM
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"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."
President Dwight D. Eisenhower
April 16, 1953
"A billion here, a billion there. Pretty soon it starts to add up to some real money."
Credited to Everett M. Dirksen (http://www.dirksencenter.org/featuresBillionHere.htm)
What is 87 billion? (http://www.crunchweb.net/87billion)
What is the significance of 87 billion? (http://costofwar.com/)
Cheerfully brought to you by a middle of the road independent.
curly
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Very good post.
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very good post.
incase you missed the post last week on the book "war is a racket" you might want to check it out. it adds further weight to your apoint from an author that the pro-war types have a hard time dis-crediting.
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Originally posted by Animal
Very good post.
Translation:
I like this post very much because it fits in really well with my preconceptions and irrational hatred of Bush.
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I like this post very much because it fits in really well with my preconceptions and irrational hatred of Bush.
Translation:
I am gay.
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Originally posted by Maniac
Translation:
I am gay.
Another brilliant contribution by Maniac... But thats ok, I know the Saddam capture hit you pretty hard and you are still recovering your full facilities.. Perhaps you could hit the bottle some more, or watch another cheerful Disney family cartoon...
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Another brilliant contribution by Maniac... But thats ok, I know the Saddam capture hit you pretty hard and you are still recovering your full facilities.. Perhaps you could hit the bottle some more, or watch another cheerful Disney family cartoon...
Translation:
I do not know how to make insults.
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During the Vietnam war, Lyndon B. Johnson said (paraphrase) "He wanted to electrify Vietnam -- he wanted to dam the rivers so people away from the urban centers could enjoy the benefits of modern life."
I'm confident a lot of his phrases were grist for the political mill, but make no mistake, LBJ was a serious social reformer.
LBJ made one serious error. He didn't understand the culture of Vietnam. He didn't understand they didn't want a version of American culture brought to their country. The war in Vietnam was never about communism versus other forms of government. The North Vietnamese used the Soviets/USA friction point to fund their war. To be sure, North Vietnamese were token communists, but the war was never about the form of their government! It was about getting the French/American influence out of Vietnam.
GB is making the same error in Iraq. The lens in his microscope focuses on Western European/North American values. That is a horrible error. GB assumes the average Iraqi feels the same horror he feels when a "Warrior of God" pulls the cord on 2 pounds of semtex strapped to his chest. Major error!
It's not that I don't have sympathy for the ordinary citizen in Iraq, for I do. But I recognize that I am clueless when it comes to assessing what is important to the Iraqi citizen.
What will $87 billion buy you? Go read Toad's thread on Ozkansas. How many of you have lost someone you loved to cancer? Would $87 billion cure cancer? Hell, I dunno, but I would rather spend my money on a cause where the folks involved will be appreciative.
curly
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Originally posted by Maniac
I do not know how to make insults.
Correct.
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Originally posted by AKcurly
1) GB is making the same error in Iraq. The lens in his microscope focuses on Western European/North American values. That is a horrible error. GB assumes the average Iraqi feels the same horror he feels when a "Warrior of God" pulls the cord on 2 pounds of semtex strapped to his chest. Major error!
2) But I recognize that I am clueless when it comes to assessing what is important to the Iraqi citizen.
Statements 1 and 2 that you made above are in direct contradiction.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Statements 1 and 2 that you made above are in direct contradiction.
Incorrect Grun. While I am clueless about Iraqi motivations, I'm ok with understanding American motivations.
Read for content Grun and stop the mindless buzzing. :)
curly
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Incorrect Grun. While I am clueless about Iraqi motivations, I'm ok with understanding American motivations.
Translation in Grunīs mind:
Akcurly is a Bush hater.
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No Curly.
To make the first staement you must assume some knowledge of Iraqi values, otherwise how could you say that US policy towards Iraqi people was wrong? Horrible Error! Major Error! etc.
But then you say you have no idea whats important to Iraqis. So if you have no idea of whats important to iraqis how can you say that the USA is not providing it?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Translation:
I like this post very much because it fits in really well with my preconceptions and irrational hatred of Bush.
Wrong. Bush or the current administation did not cross my mind when I read Curly's post. The only one with preconceptions here is yourself.
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Do not wear a blue hat... or you will be dubbed "Bush Hater" by Grunherz...
Is he REALY your mentor Grun ? C'mon...
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Good post Curly. :aok
Translation:
Good post Curly. :aok
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Originally posted by Torque
Good post Curly. :aok
Translation:
Good post Curly. :aok
:)
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Originally posted by Animal
Wrong. Bush or the current administation did not cross my mind when I read Curly's post. The only one with preconceptions here is yourself.
I take it then that you did not read the linked articles before responding?
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Do not wear a blue hat... or you will be dubbed "Bush Hater" by Grunherz...
Is he REALY your mentor Grun ? C'mon...
No, I'm just sick of these sefl congratulatory threads. And yes I'm guilty of taking part in them too.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I take it then that you did not read the linked articles before responding?
Wrong, again.
Guess what? when reading Bush's quotes on that article I dont even care about where the words are coming from. You could substitute his picture and name with any head of state in history that is trying to make a point for going on an unnecessary war and it would be the same to me.
I dont hate Bush, I hate war. Its seems thats because you cannot comprehend that others do disagree with your ideals, you can justify belittling their ideals by claiming, falsely, that they hold an irrational grudge against an individual or group; I.E: since I, and Curly for that matter, believe that war is wrong, you try to invalidate our beliefs with claims that we have irrational preconceptions.
Ironically, since flat out claiming you know what is on a strangers is an obvious form of preconception.
Good night.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
No Curly.
To make the first staement you must assume some knowledge of Iraqi values, otherwise how could you say that US policy towards Iraqi people was wrong? Horrible Error! Major Error! etc.
But then you say you have no idea whats important to Iraqis. So if you have no idea of whats important to iraqis how can you say that the USA is not providing it?
I don't know if I can make it easier for you to understand.
1. Citizens of Western Europe and North America for the most part have no understanding of Iraqi culture.
2. It's reasonably safe to assume that while GB may have advisors around him who theoretically understand Iraqi culture, GB's gut reaction to a "Warrior of God" is going to be revulsion.
3. GB is going to translate his revulsion to the ordinary Iraqi citizen and that's a major error.
curly
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By the way, if you think I have irrational Bush hate, let me tell you that just up to a year after 9/11, I mainly thought good things about the way Bush was doing things so far. I am not bipolar in the way I think. I know shades of gray.
My mind is open and my opinions do change based on the dynamism of international politics. Unlike yourself, who are locked on a mindset. I still believe people like you, zealots, are the most dangerous suspects in all of civilization.
Your first post towards me in this thread bothered me, especially because I know it was not a troll.
Just like I do not accept it here, I would not have accepted it in person (not that I believe you even say what you say here in person.)
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Originally posted by Animal
Wrong. Bush or the current administation did not cross my mind when I read Curly's post. The only one with preconceptions here is yourself.
So after addmiting to having read the linked articles (full of direct Bush and Iraq references) you excpect me to belive the above statement?
Perhaps you may think I'm stupid but damn Animal please dont insult me so much...
As for war.
Be clear now, do you universally hate all wars or just those you subjectivly disagree with for whatever reason.
For example would you have thought it a good post two years ago if somebody contemplated how much money was "wasted" in the Afghan war after 911. Or more bluntly 60 years ago as for ww2, which really cost a lot of money and would have put millions of kids through college for example.
So if you you are going to bring out the noble "I hate war" stuff you better be be against them all no exceptions. Otherwise it's more like - I disagree with the current adminstrations policies - which is far far different fropm "I hate war" Now you allready used the qualifier "unnecessary" so maybe I should have some preconceved notions about your answer.....
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Originally posted by AKcurly
3. GB is going to translate his revulsion to the ordinary Iraqi citizen and that's a major error.
curly
So you claim to know how the ordinary iraqi thinks?
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Seek help.
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Originally posted by Animal
Your first post towards me in this thread bothered me, especially because I know it was not a troll.
Just like I do not accept it here, I would not have accepted it in person (not that I believe you even say what you say here in person.)
No I dont behave here as I do in person, GRUNHERZ is a character that has developed on this BBS. When I first started posting here long ago I wrote as spoke I do in real life, polite and thoughtful with good humor - generally pleasant and such saying thanks and being nice. I quickly found out it was pointless as people were very agressive and plain nasty so I guess GRUNHERZ has taken on much of that. Actually I'm thinking of maybe dumping the GRUNHERZ name for that very reason, it encourages me to behave badly on bbs I think, and certainly colors the types of responses to my posts.
If you wanna know what I'm really like, just ask people who met me at the con or who I vistited this summer or maybe come to the next con and find out yourself.
Why did I write my intial response? I percived your post and the others I was sure were to come (and of course they did, like always in these threads) as just self congratulatory pagentry where you all just reinforce your preconcived distate for the war and how terribly wasteful it is, like all the other "anti war" news or link threads. No different than all the "pro war" threads where those of us that support the war and us policy in Iraq do the same. Of course the opponents then also come in and say their thing.They are getting tiresome and pointless because all the BBS charcters just pile in and do their bits over and over again. Obviously I'm as guilty of this as anyone so I suppose it was as much as a sacractisc outburst at you as it was on me.
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Originally posted by Maniac
Seek help.
Yes more witty insights from you...
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You do need help, you have Scizoprenia or how thats spelled...
EDIT : And paranoia LOL!
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Originally posted by Maniac
You do need help, you have Scizoprenia or how thats spelled...
EDIT : And paranoia LOL!
Hillarious. Let me guess you are trying to spin the grunherz charcter thing as some sort of multiple personality stuff - hey whatever floats your boat if it helps rationalize how somebody could possibly disagrree with your views.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So you claim to know how the ordinary iraqi thinks?
Grun, are you ok? Have you over-indulged in your favorite beverage?
You aren't making sense. Come back tomorrow and make logical statements please.
curly
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"3. GB is going to translate his revulsion to the ordinary Iraqi citizen and that's a major error."
Why is it major error? If you make that stement you must then assume to know the characteristics of Iraqi people and their values. How could you make that stement without presuming knowledge of the values and preferences of "ordinary iraqis"
Here is an example:
Think about it, to say that certain behavior is a "error" it is impliued that you know what the proper behavior actally is:
In a American workplaces today it is considered a major error to be racist towards your coworkers.
As opposed to - which has no clue of of american values:
In america today it is very good idea to adress your black coworker by the n-word.
Understand?
So if you say that you have no idea of what is important to iraqi people, how can you then say that US policy towards them is wrong?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So after addmiting to having read the linked articles (full of direct Bush and Iraq references) you excpect me to belive the above statement?
Perhaps you may think I'm stupid but damn Animal please dont insult me so much...
Perhaps you are, because it seems you truly believe that anyone denouncing Bush's policies is automatically a Bush hater. Guess what? I can feel something is wrong without needing to put all of my attention on who is doing it.
As for war.
Be clear now, do you universally hate all wars or just those you subjectivly disagree with for whatever reason.
Yes, I universally hate all wars.
For example would you have thought it a good post two years ago if somebody contemplated how much money was "wasted" in the Afghan war after 911.
Or more bluntly 60 years ago as for ww2, which really cost a lot of money and would have put millions of kids through college for example.
LOL you dont get it, do you? Do you honestly think this current war is a good war? do you think WWII was a good war? Because if you do, you believe terrorists smashing planes against buildings and NAZI's storming Europe was a good thing.
I may hate war, but I know when its necessary to wage open war. It was in WWII, it is not now.
So if you you are going to bring out the noble "I hate war" stuff you better be be against them all no exceptions.
Yes, I honestly hate all wars. Dont you? Do you honestly believe that the unnecessary destruction caused during WWII was good? So you are saying you think it was a good thing that WWII happened?
Otherwise it's more like - I disagree with the current adminstrations policies - which is far far different fropm "I hate war"
I disagree with current administration policies because they are based on waging open war liberally. One thing is fighting terrorism, which I am totally for, another is the conquest of land in the name of the fight for terror. Which actually breeds more hate, and more terrorism. Someone bombs a bus, we strafe his village, they blow up our WTC, we destroy a big portion of their country, so on. How can you not hate this?
But none of this means I hate Bush, and that I will disagree automatically with everything he says or does.
Now you allready used the qualifier "unnecessary" so maybe I should have some preconceved notions about your answer.....
Oh, please. You have preconceived notions about anyone who disagrees with you. You prove that over and over. Anyone who disagrees with you on something, you automatically treat him like an enemy.
Are you unable to view every new conversation with a fresh mind? learn to, it really is refreshing, pun intended ;)
I hope you are truly right when you say this is just an online persona, because if you are this way in real life, then you seriously have issues.
Hey, have you noticed how I dont actually participate on many of the political threads here, and even suggested a separate political forum? Its because of the way things are here. This is the only place where I have been called both a comunist AND a fascist in the span of one day, just for saying my views, or for agreeing with someone or something that a certain clique despises.
I'll end it with this:
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."
President Dwight D. Eisenhower
April 16, 1953
Would you call him a leftist anti war pansy, not knowing he was the great general of the allies?
Ike is one of my most respected historical figures. I agree with him entirely on this statement. And I also agree with the reasons the free world had to, sadly, wage war against the fascist war machine during WWII.
So dont come here to tell me I'm wrong for hating war.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Why did I write my intial response? I percived your post and the others I was sure were to come (and of course they did, like always in these threads) as just self congratulatory pagentry where you all just reinforce your preconcived distate for the war and how terribly wasteful it is, like all the other "anti war" news or link threads.
Grunherz, you know me. I have no axes to grind, including generalized statements about war.
I think (perhaps I'm wrong) that most of us don't object to war and all of its expense and misery so long as the outcome is clearly identified. Certainly I don't object to war in the right situation.
If we comitted to wiping out Iraqi culture and imposing Western European/North American culture, yes, maybe the current situation would make sense. But, if we try to do that, we're going to facing a passel of angry arabs, afghans and persians.
I object to the Iraqi war because the outcome is poorly-defined. And as such, we're not going to change a thing - we'll stir the pot, let some Iraqi court whack off Saddam's head and then they'll replace him with someone who is equally bad from our point of view. Of course from the Iraq POV, the new bad guy will be wonderful.
And that's the whole point -- FROM OUR POINT OF VIEW. We do not understand the Iraqi point of view. We do not understand the Arab point of view. For the love of pete, we don't understand virtually anything about the entire region. But that isn't preventing us from trying settle the issue using our POV.
Failure to understand a pov didn't prevent LBJ from stepping on his dork and evidently, GB has the same shortcoming.
curly
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
"3. GB is going to translate his revulsion to the ordinary Iraqi citizen and that's a major error."
Why is it major error? If you make that stement you must then assume to know the characteristics of Iraqi people and their values. How could you make that stement without presuming knowledge of the values and preferences of "ordinary iraqis"
No, as I have said again and again, the deep down, ingrained cultural values of the Iraqi arab are a mystery to the entire Western world, including GB. Over the duration of this event, there will be literally hundreds of decision points that we will reach. To assume that any American politician will make the correct decision from an Iraqi point of view is ridiculous.
Even more damning, suppose GB somehows sniffs out a good decision for the Iraqis. Suppose the decision is a political liability. Will it get implemented?
We should be in Iraq if and only if we have a clearly defined goal. Do this, this and this, accomplish that and leave. And we don't! We've grabbed the tarbaby and we're desperately trying to suck the rest of the non-moslem world in.
Here is an example of a clear strategy.
1. Invade Iraq.
2. Kill Saddam Hussein and his get.
3. Salt the earth where Saddam lived.
4. Exit Iraq.
I would have supported the above. :)
curly
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Without any of Bush's advisors living in Iraq, its safe to say they don't know what the average Iraqi values.
Thats the point I believe Curly is getting at, he doesn't have to know what the ordinary Iraqis value because its a safe bet the administration doesn't know either.
Hell, US policy got the Iraqis Saddam in the first place.
-SW
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"This is the only place where I have been called both a comunist AND a fascist in the span of one day, just for saying my views, or for agreeing with someone or something that a certain clique despises."
Me too, Miko has called me a communist a few times and I'm always called a fascist warmonger. :)
I also agree about the cliques thing, in fact thats why I posted in this thread.
About war. People who were afraid to militarily confront Hitler in the 1930s caused a much more terrible war to take place in the 1940s. Whether its good or bad is kinda pointless, the only thing that matters is if you are confronted with war.
In 1967 Israeli intelligence got wind that the Arabs were preparing a massive pan-arab army to invade israel from all sides. Knowing thay were horribly outnumbered the Iraelis struck first, disrupting the arab war plans and winning a major victory saving their nation from annihilation one more time.
Was their action good or bad? Would it have been more good for them to wait until the arabs attacked?
So what is my view on war? Personally, the civil war in yugoslavia was not kind to my family and me, close relatives were murdered in their hospital beds in the seige of Vukovar (imagine a small stalingrad in 1990s europe), others were taken captive by serb troops and never seen again, a mortar round nearly decapitaded my mother while blowing up part of the home I grew up in and made my family over there refugees and I was seperated from half my family for the better part of the 1990s. So naturally, I really love war - of course not. I think it sucks because real people and real life stories are destryoyed and desrupted by it.
However what difference does it make what I think of war, whether its good or bad. The serbs would have sent those mortar shells flying anyway whether I thought war was bad or not.
With this personal pain of war how could I possibly support wars or the military in general? I have written enough allready but if you care I can explain why.
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One word answer to all these "we westerners cant possibly understand Iraq, so its best to do nothing after the war" comments:
Japan
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Hell, US policy got the Iraqis Saddam in the first place.
-SW
Proving that, at least some westerners have no clue about Iraq. :)
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Yes, because we didn't have our hands in the making of Saddam.
Had it not been for us, we would not have the "Saddam used WMDs on his own poeple" retort.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Yes, because we didn't have our hands in the making of Saddam.
Had it not been for us, we would not have the "Saddam used WMDs on his own poeple" retort.
-SW
That is true of course but the USA did not install him as you said before. But so what, why do you people think the constant repetition of varitaions on the line:
"In the past the USA was allies with and helped Saddam/Bin Laden"
has any relevance whatsover to the current situation, more precisly what do you think it adds to your anti-war arguments? It would be like saying that it was wrong for the USA to fight the communists in Korea because during WW2 we were allies with Russia and supported russia and helped finance the Russian war effort against a common foe. What should have we done, let the germans win? Or somehow that the cold was was the fault of the US because ,what, we helped the russians when we both faced a common enemy and that somehow helping them stave off german annihilation would cause a 50year cold war? Ridiculous. And the same works with this tired Saddam/BinLaden schtick too. It was not our fault these guys betrayed us and became our enemies just as it was not our fault Stalin betrayed us and became our enemy after WW2.
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Grun, you are a hypocrit. You are one of the first to post in back slapping conservative threads.
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Great troll.
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I doubt that anyone is for war over peace. I doubt that ol Dwight was ever for backing down from war when it was inevitable or the only solution or even the best solution.
LBJ would probly be for giving the vote to women.... just about everything he thought was wrong... a true socialist.
lazs
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Grunherz Translated:
mmmph.....slurp..........gulp....ahhh, thank you Mr. Bush....may I have some more?
yowser
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Good Post Curly - we are seeing smaller but equally significant figures in the UK.
But I ask "why are we spending the money" and "where are we spending the money". I think these are important questions.
As to the why - (puts flame suit on) well I'm still a firm believer in the thinking that the War on Terror and WMD arguements were a front. The campaign in Iraq is a stategic and economic investment. The US and the UK have no real interest in Western democracy in Iraq. They do however have a very strong interest in a friendly regime. If democracy was the driver then the relationship with the Saudis would not exist and the involvement in Yugoslavia would have been much stonger earlier. The evidence for this level of investment to achieve purely political doctrinal aims is simply not there.
So why?? It is never a good idea to have all your eggs in one basket and so the US and UK presence in Saudi Arabia is a shaky foothold. This was proved when the Saudis disallowed operations from their territory in the Iraq war. The US and the UK need another platform from which they can exert pressure in the Middle East.
A presence in Iraq gives us a strategic positon to exert pressure on the Syrians and the Iranians directly during negotiations. Particularly it gives the US a postion to back up Israel should the Syrians turn nasty.
The second why is the economic investment. The significance of the oil reserves under Iraq cannot be ignored and even if the US do not eventually control the production (by the fields being operated by US companies), then by having a friendly and dependant regime in power gives the US and the UK another ally in OPEC.
So now to the where.
I think we can safely assume that the money being talked about here is not for welfare payments to Iraqis but more for contracts for rebuilding and infrastructure. We have also seen that GWB has stated that only involved coalition partners will benefit and I think it is safe to assume it will be on a pro-rata basis. Therefore most of the money will go to US companies for capital projects or support of US operations. So given that most of the work will involve US technical personnel then it is safe to say that a proportion - say 30% - of that money will go straight back to the government in taxes of some sort or another. Then consider the support contracts. Lets take for example fuel and power - Iraqi oil pumped by US equipment (bought in th US and shipped over) under the supervision of US contract labour refined by US supplied equipment moved around by new US built trucks. Again most of the money will be internally spent and a large proportion recovered in taxes. About the only spending completely in Iraq will be local wages, which will at a very low rate, and local materials.
All in all what I see is the building of the next Saudi Arabia or an extension of Kuwait. The ruling council will be replaced by a "Freely Elected" body of approved powerful tribal and religious leaders - the basis for pre-approval has already been laid down by the US. The ruling Government will be dependant on US and UK help to maintain security and infrastructure replacement for 10 - 20 years. "Allowances" be will made to "tailor democracy to the unique differences in Arab culture" and life will settle into a Kuwait / US / UK style arrangement.
At least 50% of that 87 billion will go straight back to the treasury inside 2 years.
The REAL loss has been the weapons used - cruise missile = 1.4mil tax payers dollars gone boom :( - no return no clawback - pure loss.
Just my take on it
Sparks
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Was speculated before JFKs' assasination that LBJ said " Gentlemen, you'll have your War"
In my opinion....our elected officials do not lead this country (USA)
In my opinion the power doesn't rest with the elected official, but the one or ones with the most money and influence.
Money = influence.
For an example.....we can import cheaper steel from abroad, but we can't import drugs from Canada because they are cheaper.
Senior Citizens in this area hop on a Bus to go to Canada to purchase their prescribed drugs because they are much cheaper.
Gives them the option of buying food etc.
Now....why do ya spose that is? Answer....the drug companies
aren't making as much money...simple.
GE made something in the area of 16billion dollars profit for fiscal year 2002. Not sure about the exact figure...but it was huge.
Then....they tell their employees they must contribute more from their paycheck to pay for the Medical Benefits.
How much is enough? How greedy can some get?
Goes for our politicains. Don't be so naive to think that they're representing you......you don't place anything in their pocket but the opportunity to make more.
Sorry to be so critical.....but have been standing back and watching our so called Democracy operate this way for a long time.
Anywhere else Lobbying would be called bribery...not here :D
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If you wanna know what I'm really like, just ask people who met me at the con or who I vistited this summer or maybe come to the next con and find out yourself.
maybe, if you can't 'own' your statements personally but must credit them to a online-persona who "isn't the real you", they are aren't worth sharing.
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How many hundreds if not thousands of billions do we waste every year in the US on nonproductive programs? I don't have time to look it up just now but I'm willing to bet this $87 billion pales in comparison. Maybe we can reduce slightly a bit of internal spending for a few months or a year so that we can work towards ensuring security and peace for our future generations?
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Maybe we can reduce slightly a bit of internal spending for a few months or a year so that we can work towards ensuring security and peace for our future generations?
that would be great(and well worth the money and sacrifice of domestic programs) if that where the effect we'd get. more likely though we will just continue to re-enforce the world view of us as a country who tries to force our views, values, and political system on other countries. making our people prime targets for generations to come.
why do you suppose (out of all the countries to choose from) they hate us so much? there are plenty of others to hate, those that are closer to them, easier to get to, why travel all the way over here?
after 9/11 we heard reports (and attempts through northern Washington state, proved these accurate) that terrorists could enter this country through Canada.
culturally Canada isn't much different than the US (the 51st state, as it is often called). religiously it is also very similar. for al the reasons we are told they hate us, it would justify them hating Canada equally.
so why, when they already had the people and explosives in Canada, did they feel the need to risk another border crossing to get them to the US, Canada is a mostly Christian, western civilization, why not just use them there?
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
why do you suppose (out of all the countries to choose from) they hate us so much? there are plenty of others to hate, those that are closer to them, easier to get to, why travel all the way over here?
I'm glad you asked. I think I know exactly why we are hated by so many middle easterners. It is the freedom we enjoy. By that I don't mean that they envy us or would deprive us of freedom so as to enslave us. Rather that our freedom to worship God how we see fit including not to worship at all is an affront to their religious fervor and intolerance. They understand their own human susceptiblity to the temptations they see us as having giving ourselves over to and fear that such freedom would destroy their own devoutly religious societies. They hate us because they fear us.
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They hate us because they envy us, our freedom and our wealth.
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why do you laugh?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Yes of course, the Saudi Arabians envy your wealth ... Sure.
Ahh......you are one of them fast edjumacated ones.
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Originally posted by AKcurly
He (LBJ)didn't understand the culture of ...................
It seems to be a Texan thing........ I guess therefore we wouldn't understand that they dont understand.............
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You are forgetting the dirt poor people on the street. The last I heard, Bin laden didn't fly any planes into the WTC.
You need to talk to arabs on the street, of course how could you,
you live in Norway........sillie me.
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It is the freedom we enjoy.
again, why not Canada? they have religious freedom? and, at least in the case I mentioned above, the explosives and terrorists where already in Canada before they tried to get them to Seattle. why didn't they just set them off in Canada?
so logically it's not that they "fear our religious freedom" otherwise they'd take out other, easier, closer, targets in countries that also enjoy religious freedom.
IMO we are a target, because we constantly try to impose our opinion of what is right on their lives. we think that anyone who doesn't share our values is immoral or just wrong. so we go over to other countries and (best case scenario) try to fix them. or(more likely scenario) go over there ostensibly to fix them, but are actually there so a few people can make a lot of cash.
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Good point, when I say we I mean the "West" or what ever else you want to call it.
That means you to GS.
I've had many conversations with arabs lately. They see the "West" way out in front of them. Many feel they have no way out. Like Saudi Arabia, whose freedoms and human rights are a great example for the world.
(IMO we are a target, because we constantly try to impose our opinion of what is right on their lives.)
I don't think so, we could leave them alone and they would still hate us.
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Originally posted by GScholz
So tell me Monk, was it the poor people of Saudi Arabia that flew those planes, or was it people with German law-degrees and US flight training that had lived in Europe and the US for years funded by wealthy-beyond-belief Saudi businessmen who have never ever been poor and live lives of unequivocal luxury and freedom that wealth brings in the Saudi society?
Your "edjumacation" seems to be wanting.
If you only use 911 as an example, you seem to be wanting.
I understand that you don't like the USA, it's OK. But you need to get in line, and it's a long line.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
IMO we are a target, because we constantly try to impose our opinion of what is right on their lives. we think that anyone who doesn't share our values is immoral or just wrong. so we go over to other countries and (best case scenario) try to fix them. or(more likely scenario) go over there ostensibly to fix them, but are actually there so a few people can make a lot of cash.
I think you have us and them mixed up.
I have already told you why they hate us but you're right, I didn't say why they hate us more than some others that share our ideology. Well, we do have more physical presence in the middle east than most other western countries. They may also feel we are exploiting their oil resources and most certainly resent our support of Israel. Our influence extends beyond our mere physical presence there though. Hollywood reaches around the world and many consider it a corrupting influence.
If you would have your freedom there will always be those that hate you for it. We cannot prevent that and I don't think that we can hide from their hate. We can make it very costly for them to act against us though, if we have the resolve.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Why do they then attack the US, and not every western country?
There have been many Islamic fanatic terrorist attacks throughout the world for decades. Why do you think they have occured only against the US?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Name one terrorist act against a European country committed by Arabs that was a sheer act of hate like 9/11 and not a hijacking to extort money or the freedom of imprisoned comrades.
For starters, more than one here:
http://www.hri.org/docs/USSD-Terror/95/europe.html
"Islamic extremists upset with French Government policy toward the conflict in Algeria are suspected of being responsible for terrorist bombings in France during 1995 that left eight dead and 160 wounded. The bombers targeted subways, markets, and other public places to achieve a maximum effect. Islamic extremists also probably conducted a car bombing in front of police headquarters in Rijeka, Croatia, which killed the driver of the car."
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Originally posted by GScholz
Name one terrorist act against a European country committed by Arabs that was a sheer act of hate like 9/11 and not a hijacking to extort money or the freedom of imprisoned comrades.
Prove that the attack on the WTC was PURE HATE.
you cant and you know you cant.
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Speaking of hijackers, nearly all of you are hijackers! This thread isn't about 9/11; it's not about why the US is a marked country. It's about inefficient use of monies. It's not about right/wrong - it's about foolish wars.
But, since I have been hijacked ... ;)
Compare the US today to Britain around the turn of century (1900.) US wealth, national accomplishments and foolish worldwide meddling pales next to Great Britain. British wealth (as a nation) exceeded the wealth of any three other countries.
The Brits led the world in *ALL* areas of endeavor (except fine art). And, they meddled on a scale never before (or after) seen. India, South Africa and Egypt all come to mind. Great Britain was was magnificent.
As a general rule, Parliament tried to do the right thing. And can you believe it, the world hated the Brits.
I think it's called "The Big Dog Effect." Lead the world in a significant number of areas and it warps reality, both for the inhabitants of "Big Dog" and for the folks who share the world with "Big Dog."
For all of the outraged citizens of the world, I can only say "wait, our turn will come too. Our national vision will lose focus; we'll fritter away our wealth and citizens; we'll not be 'Big Dog' forever."
curly
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Originally posted by GScholz
What was the motivation for the bombing of the WTC? What was the motivation for 9/11? What was the motivation for the attack on USS Cole? What was the motivation for the attacks on US embassies? Did they ask any ransom? Did they have any demands?
I will answer this question with what is purely my own opinion.
1. Past (and present) nefarious foreign policy relating to the middle east.
2. U.S. support of Israel.
3. Because it is the most news worthy target.
If you are going to kidnap someone for political purposes, would you ...
A.) Kidnap a homeless person from the ghetto, or...
B.) A wealthy CEO from Beverly Hills?
Which would get you the most attention?
The world would just not be as impressed if the subject of these attacks was a country less in the limelight.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Grun, you are a hypocrit. You are one of the first to post in back slapping conservative threads.
I said two or three times in this thread thread that I was as guilty of it as anybody and that it was a criticism of my behavior as much as anybody eleses. So you dont have any point with you accusiation...
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Originally posted by Monk
They hate us because they envy us, our freedom and our wealth.
This obviously explains all those terrorist attacks directed at the U.S. emanating from sub-Saharan Africa, the slums of the Indian subcontinent and the rural areas of mainland China (to name but a few). It also explains all those attacks against what are, in all fairness, much softer targets that the U.S. such as every other Western style, industrialized liberal democracy.
I can see it know...every terrorist in the world would stop all his hate if simply he had enough money to buy a Big Mac and listen to his brand new Brittney CD.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Please stop quoting Grunherz.
For somebody who proports to have me on his ignore list you seem to follow me around jabbing cheap insults a lot... Thats wierd...
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Originally posted by GScholz
That would be African terrorists, something France has had trouble with since the time of French colonialism. Their reasons were clearly defined: " Islamic extremists upset with French Government policy toward the conflict in Algeria". What was the reason for 9/11? Perhaps you think the terrorists that attacked the French envied the French for their wealth and freedom?
While I have been responding to your posts as if I was arguing your later point I wasn't. You want to see my explanation for their hate go back to the previous page.
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Originally posted by AKcurly
Speaking of hijackers, nearly all of you are hijackers!
curly
Threads often gain a life of their own. :)
Who asked you anyhow? :p
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Originally posted by Monk
You are forgetting the dirt poor people on the street. The last I heard, Bin laden didn't fly any planes into the WTC.
You need to talk to arabs on the street, of course how could you,
you live in Norway........sillie me.
and when exactly did you talk to arabs ?
and where ??
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Originally posted by GScholz
What was the reason for 9/11?
official reason is, that few nasty guys from ME took a bit more hashis and then they prepared pretty cool trip...
in fact that americans do not sell any weapons to ME area
in fact that US do not support war conflicts in ME area
in fact that us respect diferent way of living in ME
in fact that US do not scary any countries by military power, whitch they have in ME
( so there arent any resons to grab attention by sutch tragic way.. since we consider things above to be normal )
come on .. poor america is a vicim .... and if you dont belive, turn on TV and keep listen Mr. Bush... he gonna explain you, how evil terrorist killing all good people all around word after joint of high quality afghani opium :D
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Originally posted by MJHerman
I can see it now...every terrorist in the world would stop all his hate if simply he had enough money to buy a Big Mac and listen to his brand new Brittney CD.
lmao... it couldnt be put any better...
I dont feel we are hated b/c of our freedoms and money... They hate us b/c we are in their faces everywhere they turn.... especially isreal...
I believe the only way for some to understand this war will not work is for our president to get on national television and attempt to explain the propogation of violence.... how violence begates violence... how its an un-ending visious cycle... But, since that is all but impossible.... I fear the past will be repeated... The wheels are already in motion......
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Lets say the USA decides to turn a new leaf and rejects "violence" as you say Kappa.
How do we respond to 911 in a non-violent way?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Lets say the USA decides to turn a new leaf and rejects "violence" as you say Kappa.
How do we respond to 911 in a non-violent way?
did i spell it wrong??
How about pull out of our global interest... Bring ALL our troops home... Keep our $87 BILLION for our own national defence...
I dunno the answers Grun... I just know we have been 'influencing' ME affairs for decades.. It seems to get us no-where... Even the countries we thought were friendly, are not... We have been lied to by our goverment many times over of ME affairs... It brings us nothing but blood... Why attempt to continue? They cant want us there.....
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O ya... brings us nothing but blood, higher debt, and the errosion of american liberties
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Originally posted by kappa
How about pull out of our global interest... Bring ALL our troops home... Keep our $87 BILLION for our own national defence...
Do you think its smart to do this after our isolationism experience following WW1?
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Originally posted by kappa
I dunno the answers Grun... I just know we have been 'influencing' ME affairs for decades.. It seems to get us no-where...
I don't think that's true. If not for our meddling who knows what we'd be paying for oil? Americans are pretty selfish, wonder how many that have posted in this thread drive a gas guzzler or SUV?
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Is Gscholz officaly siding himself with Osama Bin Laden on this whole 911 and terrorism thing?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Do you think its smart to do this after our isolationism experience following WW1?
what experience following WW1? Not being ready for WW2? As I recall we won that war... What ever you refer too cant be that bad of a policy....
This could be rough but bear w/ me a min Grun...
Your 16yrs old living in Iraqi.. America, whilst freeing you from an oppressive government (the only government you have known), has bombed and killed your family.... All of them...
Are you:
A. Happy with america
B. Willing to die to kill and american
If we killed every alqueda (sp) terrorist in the world today, we are still behind because we are creating our enemy faster than we could possibly destroy it.. Everything BL preaches about America being the oppressor to Muslims is being proven true... not to you and me... but the folks that matter.... the muslims... A country could not possibly when a fight like this...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Is Gscholz officaly siding himself with Osama Bin Laden on this whole 911 and terrorism thing?
Get with HIS program, they are not terrorist, they are FREEDOM FIGHTERS !!!!!!
He still longs for the days when the Vikings were raping and pilaging.
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Originally posted by AKIron
I don't think that's true. If not for our meddling who knows what we'd be paying for oil? Americans are pretty selfish, wonder how many that have posted in this thread drive a gas guzzler or SUV?
A joke right?
How many lives again is cheap gas worth?
Its so hard to say or even attempt to speculate.. Had we no cheap oil/gas, perhaps the good'ole american know how could have built some sort of alt energy... Imagine just 25% of the money Exxon/Mobile nets per year actually going towards an american future... So many possibilites... Imagine just 25% of the national defence budget spent .... o dear the possibilities...
personnaly I think our country changed roads after the death of JFK and VonBraughs dream of going to Mars was axed in favor of the worlds largest 'defence' budget... VonBraugh died soon after.... we ceased to dream as a country during this time..
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Originally posted by kappa
A joke right?
How many lives again is cheap gas worth?
Its so hard to say or even attempt to speculate.. Had we no cheap oil/gas, perhaps the good'ole american know how could have built some sort of alt energy... Imagine just 25% of the money Exxon/Mobile nets per year actually going towards an american future... So many possibilites... Imagine just 25% of the national defence budget spent .... o dear the possibilities...
personnaly I think our country changed roads after the death of JFK and VonBraughs dream of going to Mars was axed in favor of the worlds largest 'defence' budget... VonBraugh died soon after.... we ceased to dream as a country during this time..
Just curious, what do you drive? I drive a honda accord.
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Originally posted by GScholz
And you wonder why they hate you?
No, I don't wonder. I told you why they hate us. It really isn't just because we buy their oil and are interested in protecting our access to it.
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Originally posted by AKIron
I don't think that's true. If not for our meddling who knows what we'd be paying for oil? Americans are pretty selfish, wonder how many that have posted in this thread drive a gas guzzler or SUV?
But the invasion of Iraq was about the War on Terrorism...ooops try again.
But the invasion of Iraq was about WMD....ooops try again.
But the invasion of Iraq was about "freedom"....ooops try again.
For the record, I drive an SUV. If the price of gas went through the roof tomorrow, I would probably lose the SUV pretty quick. And I would be disgusted at the thought that my government would meddle in the affairs of an entire region simply to preserve my "right" to drive an SUV if that meddling resulted in thousands and thousands of casualties.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
That is true of course but the USA did not install him as you said before. But so what, why do you people think the constant repetition of varitaions on the line:
I never said we installed him. Who is "you people"? Who exactly are you trying to lump me together with?
-SW
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I drive a Honda Accord and love it.. On the interstate I can drive 90mph and still get 27mpg.. 8)
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Yeo people directly referes to people who parrot the "well we were allies with saddam/bin laden in the past so......"
You fit there quite well.
No you did not use the word install, but gave iraq saddam in the first place is the words you used.
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Originally posted by GScholz
And you wonder why they hate you?
Ok, you have given examples of why the muslim world might hate the U.S., now please tell us what are your reasons for hating us.
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You are just lumping me into that group because its easier than actually understanding what I type out. We gave them the Saddam the world knows today, the US's foreign policy hasn't changed much since then. Put two and two together, well - we're probably just going to screw up their country even more when we pull out.
-SW
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Originally posted by GScholz
Really?
This is complete and utter nonsense, do you think most Arabs even know how you live and worship your gods? Do you think they even care?
This is why they hate you:
They care very much that many do not worship their God. If you can't see this then you are blind.
You made a good point though I don't think you are aware of it. Most Arabs really don't know how I live or how I worship. However, they are taught from an early age to hate us as a corrupt and vile people.
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Originally posted by AKIron
They care very much that many do not worship their God. If you can't see this then you are blind.
As do many fundamentalist Christians.
I don't believe that Islam is on a crusade to rid the world of infidels, regardless of how some fundamentalists may interpret the Koran and regardless of what some propaganda machine would lead anyone to believe.
But if actions and policies offend a society (such as support for Israel, maintaining troops in the Gulf, exporting a culture which a religious group finds offensive, etc.) do you really think that occupying a Muslim nation, further imposing your values and ideals and, when the people resist, shooting them, is going to make the situation better?
If this is in fact a "Holy War" you better be prepared to either (a) shed a lot of blood over the next few decades or (b) simply eradicate the problem in its entirety.
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
You are just lumping me into that group because its easier than actually understanding what I type out. We gave them the Saddam the world knows today, the US's foreign policy hasn't changed much since then. Put two and two together, well - we're probably just going to screw up their country even more when we pull out.
-SW
I hope you arent saying before the USA started dealing with Saddam in the 1980s beacuse of Iran that he or the Baath party were nice guys?
US foreign policy hasnt changed much since when, the 1980s? You cant be serious...
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Originally posted by GScholz
I don't ... well perhaps some of you. The almighty "we do nothing wrong only good" crowd that is constantly baffled by how and why people hate you for what you do, and the cynical "we are right because we can do whatever we want" crowd that readily accepts the deaths of innocents and the oppression of peoples as acceptable sacrifices for selfish materialistic gains.
The rest of you are good folk.
Phew the mighty Norwegian god of all that is just has ruled upon us and dcreed those who are good and evil in the USA...
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Originally posted by GScholz
Not from my (first hand) experience with Arabs. I've had countless discussions with Arabs from Egypt, Palestine and Saudi Arabia, even religious discussions, and they were very reasonable, polite and respectful people, even towards a "Godless" man like myself.
Yes. Taught by experience more than anything else.
You aren't the only one that's spent time with middle easterners. I have found them to be regular people too. And yet some them still murder innocent men, women, and children by the thousands while many more of them look on and rejoice.
You are obviously quite bitter towards Americans and so it seems pointless to try to reason with you. I bet you don't even fly american planes in AH?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Phew the mighty Norwegian god of all that is just has ruled upon us and dcreed those who are good and evil in the USA...
I don't get it. You asked him "Why do you hate us" and he provided his answer. You then belittle the answer to your question.
Why do "they" hate you? Perhaps it is a constant and continuing disrespect for the opinions and beliefs of others, and constant disdain for anyone who disagrees with their monolithic American view of how things ought to be and what "ain't" right with this world.
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Originally posted by MJHerman
I don't get it. You asked him "Why do you hate us" and he provided his answer. You then belittle the answer to your question.
Why do "they" hate you? Perhaps it is a constant and continuing disrespect for the opinions and beliefs of others, and constant disdain for anyone who disagrees with their monolithic American view of how things ought to be and what "ain't" right with this world.
I didnt ask him anything.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I hope you arent saying before the USA started dealing with Saddam in the 1980s beacuse of Iran that he or the Baath party were nice guys?
I am saying that we created the Saddam the world knows today through supplying him with weapons and WMDs. Would he even have lived past his war with Iran without our support? Probably not. If he did, I doubt his people would have been as afraid of him because he didn't have any WMDs. He and his party were never nice, but they wouldn't have been so dangerous without our supplies.
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
US foreign policy hasnt changed much since when, the 1980s? You cant be serious...
Still support the lesser of two evils, turning a blind eye to our allies, thinking we can go in and change a country's government with a seemingly shoddy plan, veiled threats to certain countries (axis of evil).
Hasn't changed much.
Saddam needed to be dealt with, but it seems we rushed to war there. The plan of action after the cessation of organized (as much as they could have been) military hostilities to date seems to be a miserable failure.
-SW
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Love that 12 year rush to deal with Saddam.... :)
So if we cant support the lesser of two evils, what do we do - just ignore problems that face us?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I didnt ask him anything.
Apologies Grunherz...I misread Furious' post as yours.
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Originally posted by MJHerman
I don't get it. You asked him "Why do you hate us" and he provided his answer. You then belittle the answer to your question.
Why do "they" hate you? Perhaps it is a constant and continuing disrespect for the opinions and beliefs of others, and constant disdain for anyone who disagrees with their monolithic American view of how things ought to be and what "ain't" right with this world.
And yet who's the first "they" call to pull their fat outta the fire?
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Originally posted by MJHerman
Apologies Grunherz...I misread Furious' post as yours.
No problem. :D
What I was respond to was IMO GScholz's arrogance.
"The rest of you are good folk."
Was particularly arrogant especiallly coming from somebody who just wrote a diatrible balsting supposed US arrogance.
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Amazing Grun, truly amazing. You are completely inept at understanding reality.
Just because its been 12 years since the first Gulf War, which we were there to protect Kuwait not to end Saddam, doesn't equate to 12 years of preparation.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKIron
And yet who's the first "they" call to pull their fat outta the fire?
America, so they can blame it for making any mistakes during the war!
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Amazing Grun, truly amazing. You are completely inept at understanding reality.
Just because its been 12 years since the first Gulf War, which we were there to protect Kuwait not to end Saddam, doesn't equate to 12 years of preparation.
-SW
Yes the 12 years of heavy sanctions, overflights of no fly zones, repaeted bombing raids and missle strikes, diplomatic pressure and support of opposition groups had nothing to do with US policy of wanting to see Saddam either change his attitudes or be gone from power... We gave him 12 years to figure it out, how much longer do you think we should waited?
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Untill you had a valid reason to go to war?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yes the 12 years of heavy sanctions, overflights of no fly zones, repaeted bombing raids and missle strikes, diplomatic pressure and support of opposition groups had nothing to do with US policy of wanting to see Saddam either change his attitudes or be gone from power... We gave him 12 years to figure it out, how much longer do you think we should waited?
All of which have absolutely nothing to do with what I typed. You have succeeded in proving that you are incapable of understanding what is typed out in plain english.
Saddam needed to be dealt with, but it seems we rushed to war there. The plan of action after the cessation of organized (as much as they could have been) military hostilities to date seems to be a miserable failure.
That second sentence explains why I believe we rushed to war, because the plan of action after it isn't working.
-SW
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Oh so you would wait for the perfect plan... :rolleyes:
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Uhm... I just don't know how to respond to that one. So I'll give you some carpentry advice:
Measure twice, cut once.
-SW
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I hate the post,
Thought you would like to know:)
one sided and with an adgenda , and ... boring
have a good day:aok
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Uhm... I just don't know how to respond to that one. So I'll give you some carpentry advice:
Measure twice, cut once.
-SW
The wonder of hindsight, you are truly wise - perhaps the Pentagon should have called you back in March. :)
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I'd evidently be just as effective with their intel... strike outs on all accounts to date. Either fabricated or outdated data.
Great thing about America, you can criticize the government without being jailed as an enemy of the state and even vote out the president if he screws up enough.
-SW
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Originally posted by kappa
I drive a Honda Accord and love it.. On the interstate I can drive 90mph and still get 27mpg.. 8)
Well, I guess you can't be all bad. ;)
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
I am saying that we created the Saddam the world knows today through supplying him with weapons and WMDs. -SW
You have to have a really nice imagination or a black helicopter complex to make a statement like that. That particular point of view has been proven to be an exaggeration at best and a lie at the worst. Again if you have not read the 1993 Congressional Report on just that subject, I suggest you do.
The CDC sent samples of SOME biological samples that could have been used to create a WMD but there is no evidence it was ever used for anything but vaccine research. The commerce department approved the transfer that violated no US or International law at the time.
Several companies from better than a dozen countries sent dual use equipment to Iraq. The US, France, Japan, Britain and Germany to name a few. Germany was the biggest supplier and two men were convicted of violating German laws.
BTW the only WMD ever used (on the Kurds) by Iraq were not developed from materials and assistance from any US company or government agency.
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Originally posted by GScholz
I fly mostly LW planes because they have qualities which the unperked US/UK planes simply don't possess.
Even without the swastika? Ok, low blow.
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Uhm... I just don't know how to respond to that one. So I'll give you some carpentry advice:
Measure twice, cut once.
-SW
Hey SW,
I am building an Irish Taum using Hickory for the legs, and American Cherry for the seat and back. The seat and back will have cyprus inlays in a mohican motif. The legs attach using a mortise and tenon. My question is which species should I use for the pins to hold the mortise and tenon joint, and can you recommend a proper glue? I prefer a organic glue reminiscent of the colonial period.
Thanks,
Holden
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Holden, I would recommend an organic protein compound that comes free of charge and is readily available to you at 15 minute intervals.
Krusher, according to this article 24 companies were on the list of companies that Iraq submitted to the UN as to who helped their WMD programme.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/unmovic/2002/1217comp.htm
-SW
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Hey SW,
I am building an Irish Taum using Hickory for the legs, and American Cherry for the seat and back. The seat and back will have cyprus inlays in a mohican motif. The legs attach using a mortise and tenon. My question is which species should I use for the pins to hold the mortise and tenon joint, and can you recommend a proper glue? I prefer a organic glue reminiscent of the colonial period.
Thanks,
Holden
I've always preferred Ash pins, but Elm is really the best -- it literally will not twist apart. Hide glue is good, but yellow wood glue is great.
I have approximately 400 board feet of 5/4 walnut FAS. Want to buy it?
curly
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A cattle rancher needs a bull to service his cows but needs to borrow the breeding fee from the bank. The banker lends him the money and comes by a week later to see how his investment is doing.
The farmer complains that the bull just eats grass and won't even look at the cows. The banker tells the farmer that he knows a great veterinarian and that he'll send him out the next day to check out the bull. The next week the banker returns to see if the vet helped.
The farmer looks very pleased and tells the banker, "The bull has Serviced all my cows, broke through the fence, and has even serviced all my neighbor's cows."
"Wow," says the banker. "What did the vet do to that bull?" "Just gave him some pills," replies the farmer. "What kind of pills?" asks the banker.
"I don't know," says the smiling farmer, "but they sort of taste like peppermint."
curly
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The Brits certainly accumulated more wealth and influence up to early 20th century than any nation seen before or since. It was imperialism on a scale never seen before.
But alas, the Brits had a sense of fair play.
Let's roll it back a few centuries and we can accuse the Vikings of murder, rape and pillage on a scale never seen before (but alas, equalled and exceeded by a few of our modern day nasty guys.)
So now, we have a modern day viking (Gscholz) berating us for a few ill-conceived adventures.
Ok you Nordic types, I insist, explain the behavior of your ancestors and rationalize it for us please. :)
curly
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Holden, I would recommend an organic protein compound that comes free of charge and is readily available to you at 15 minute intervals.-SW
I would have tried that, but the mortise is too small (and too shallow)
>edit: and splinters!
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Ok you Nordic types, I insist, explain the behavior of your ancestors and rationalize it for us please.
They ate alot of mushrooms. (the red ones with white dots on em)
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Impressive. Since it's inception sixteen hours ago at 02:29am this morning this thread has averaged one post every 7.33 minutes. Highest traffic was the 4pm-5pm slot, at one post every 2.4 minutes.
That's all I had, carry on.
(oh, Curly, I have about 400bf of 5/4 black locust that has been sitting in my shop for 10 years or so. Never found a good use for it. Very blonde, wide grain. Want to trade? :))
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Originally posted by Krusher
BTW the only WMD ever used (on the Kurds) by Iraq were not developed from materials and assistance from any US company or government agency.
The ONLY WMD used :eek: ???
The Iran Iraq war bring anything to mind?
RESEARCH
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Originally posted by Ping
The ONLY WMD used :eek: ???
The Iran Iraq war bring anything to mind?
RESEARCH
you miss the part about the kurds?
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Look at where the emphasis is on your statement.
It appears as if the only WMD used was on the Kurds.
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Originally posted by Ping
Look at where the emphasis is on your statement.
It appears as if the only WMD used was on the Kurds.
I guess it could look like that.
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Any true quarter sawn planks in those bundles? Posts some pics of figure and end grain. 5/4 is a little large for my application, but I can handle it, what about width?
walnut is nice quarter sawn, never seen any locust, post some pics even if they aren't quartered if ya can.
just saw the 'wide grained' on the locust, never mind:p
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"Beware of the Military Industrial Complex"
President Dwight D. Eisenhower
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FOUL !! Ping wags his finger vigourously under Sir Loins nose FOUL !!
Not Allowed to use American Presidents quotes against American Presidents.
Ping puts on a striped Jersey over his Elven Attire(purchased at WalMart 69.99 CDN funds. All Applicable taxes apply )
"Cross-Checking", He shouts to the fans, "20 minute penalty"
Ping takes the striped Jersey off and bounds off into the woods.
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Originally posted by AKcurly
Cheerfully brought to you by a middle of the road independent.
curly
better check those road signs ... they are leaning way left..
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Originally posted by maslo
and when exactly did you talk to arabs ?
and where ??
my job (http://www.state.gov/m/ds)
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unleaded premium was $1.60 a gallon today... nobody is being tortured in iraq.... life is good.
lazs
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I said two or three times in this thread thread that I was as guilty of it as anybody and that it was a criticism of my behavior as much as anybody eleses. So you dont have any point with you accusiation...
No, your point has no worth because it is coming from hypocracy. What's more you admit it is hypocritical but still carry on as if it has any weight.
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Criticizing yourself as well is not hypocrisy... It would only be so if I lied about doing the same stuff.
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Admiting you are actting hypocritical certainly doesn't make your action not hypocritical, but it does make you honest.
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I guess you have never come to the realization that maybe something you have been doing or others are doing along with you may be stupid and pointless. Thats neat, how you have been right all your life.
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I guess you have never come to the realization that maybe something you have been doing or others are doing along with you may be stupid and pointless.
no most of us have done that. the trick is to fix your own bad behavior, at least to the point where it's no longer your trademark, before you set out to fix other peoples behavior.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I guess you have never come to the realization that maybe something you have been doing or others are doing along with you may be stupid and pointless. Thats neat, how you have been right all your life.
Indeed.
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"I could not respect a man who walked away from a fight where his flag was at stake. However, I think that our government should be more particular as to which wars we get involved in. The military today is high-tech and all volunteer. I think that as long as we never lose focus on what's important, we will be all right. I would hate to think that American lives could be easily thrown away on a bad policy decision. We just have to have faith in our government, which is not easy, and faith in the military. If the government goes to war, then let the military fight it. That is how America will stay great. "
-- Gregory "Pappy" Boyington
Pappy's final interview, originally published in Aviation History Magazine in May 2001 (http://history1900s.about.com/library/prm/blpappyboyington1.htm)
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Originally posted by Maniac
Translation:
I am gay.
Maniac.......you Rule! :rofl
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AKcurly: Here is an example of a clear strategy.
1. Invade Iraq.
2. Kill Saddam Hussein and his get.
3. Salt the earth where Saddam lived.
4. Exit Iraq.
You think that is a clear strategy and at the same time you "object to the Iraqi war?
That strategy is exactly what our administration is implementing. Of course "his get" is being redefined from his two sons - who were supposedely the only people willingly supporting him - to the "deck of cards" and then to all iraqis who oppose american occupation.
Animal: This is the only place where I have been called both a comunist AND a fascist in the span of one day
The difference between communists and fascists is in a very minor detail - the communists advocate the formal ownership of means of production by the state while fascists preserve nominal private ownership but totally control prodiction, distribution, prices and "profits".
So which do you prefer more - the state increasingly nationalising the economy or the state increasingly regulating/directing the economy and redestributing the income? :)
miko
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
No Curly.
To make the first staement you must assume some knowledge of Iraqi values, otherwise how could you say that US policy towards Iraqi people was wrong? Horrible Error! Major Error! etc.
But then you say you have no idea whats important to Iraqis. So if you have no idea of whats important to iraqis how can you say that the USA is not providing it?
i dont have to know all about iraqi demands to know that.
1. they do not like occupation
2. they do not need to listen what and where should they buy
3. they do not need to be educated in freedom from currupted country like US
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Originally posted by maslo
i dont have to know all about iraqi demands to know that.
1. they do not like occupation
2. they do not need to listen what and where should they buy
3. they do not need to be educated in freedom from currupted country like US
After decades of oppression by a cruel dictator they obviously need to learn about freedom from someone. Who do you suggest?
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Originally posted by maslo
i dont have to know all about iraqi demands to know that.
1. they do not like occupation
2. they do not need to listen what and where should they buy
3. they do not need to be educated in freedom from currupted country like US
Hey you are just bitter your country was given to the Russians post WW2 (not to mention didnt even bother to stand up for itself vs them) and did not have the benefit of 50 years of what you described above from the USA and now you are poor and miserable and jelous which makes you resent America....
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Originally posted by miko2d
AKcurly: Here is an example of a clear strategy.
1. Invade Iraq.
2. Kill Saddam Hussein and his get.
3. Salt the earth where Saddam lived.
4. Exit Iraq.
You think that is a clear strategy and at the same time you "object to the Iraqi war?
That strategy is exactly what our administration is implementing.
miko
No, Miko. GB is having trouble with the part where you go home.
curly
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Originally posted by maslo
i dont have to know all about iraqi demands to know that.
1. they do not like occupation
2. they do not need to listen what and where should they buy
3. they do not need to be educated in freedom from currupted country like US
Where are you from, Maslo? Which pristine paradise is blessed by your presence?
curly
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Well, guys - if the ad hominem attacks and denigrading based on someone's birthcountry's imaginary history is your idea of teaching people freedom, I wonder how you expect the iraqi's to "learn about freedom from someone" like you.
What will you say if an iraqi shows up here and says something contrary? I bet you will tell him to shut up because he is jelous and his country is backwards and he should just "learn about freedom".
miko
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Originally posted by maslo
3. they do not need to be educated in freedom from currupted country like US
Oh yea miko... Anyway shouldnt you be happy about Iraq, I mean if we are to belive your friends like maslo here then the whole Iraq war was a ruthless capitalist enterprise, you should love that..
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Grun, what's it like not being right all the time...or hardly at all?
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I'm still waiting for Maslo to tell us who can better teach the Iraqis about freedom. How about it Maslo? Or is this just gonna be a hit and run?
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Originally posted by AKIron
I'm still waiting for Maslo to tell us who can better teach the Iraqis about freedom. How about it Maslo? Or is this just gonna be a hit and run?
Maslo must be from one of those perfect countries, pure as the driven snow as Toad called them...
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BTW Thrawn where is your mighty hypocrisy trudgeon now - Your USA hating buddy Maslo, a guy from an old communist east european country calling the USA as a whole corrupt - oh the horror....
I guess you only bring that one down on the "other" side...
Like I said it's all pointless, we just attack each other - for what reason, to supposedly get the other guy upset at what some internet charecter wrote on his monitor... :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by AKIron
After decades of oppression by a cruel dictator they obviously need to learn about freedom from someone. Who do you suggest?
Whitch country with democratic goverment have smallest corruption ?
http://www.transparency.org/pressreleases_archive/2003/dnld/cpi2003.pressrelease.en.pdf
anyway qusetion is, if they are interested in 'democracy' in american point of view = patriatic country, where nothing but money rules.