Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Pepe on May 23, 2001, 05:52:00 PM
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Just back in the tower, after a 40 minutes climb in Ta152 to catch a 38k B-17.
Took my time (long and precious time) to set an attack. Grabbed 40k. Put the sun on my back. Dived out of the sun, and that 38k B-17 instead of having all the crew plain frozen, started firing at me. Never got closer to 400yds, even with a hi 2-8 pass. That zillion turbolasers made the trick. Blew the Ta. But blew my fun for the game in the process.
AH has a lot of good points, but this particular one is beyond any explanation. I am particularly frustrated. I can understand the "okay, let's give them some mean of defense against those evil fighters, who would otherwise ruin a meritful long time to climb"...but what about the long time of a lone fiter to climb off-orbit?
In RL a single buff was dead meat for a lone fighter. Here it is quite the opposite.
So, I am taking a time out of AH. Loved the game, love the community, but this particular issue has been the straw on the camel's back. I will probably be back when 1.07 is out. Since then, have a good time all. It's been an honour sharing my free time (and my sleep time) with all of you.
Cheers,
Pepe (still on fumes) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Its a tough nut to crack thats fer sure.
I am hopeful that HT eventually revisits the myriad issues involved with multi-crewed and gunned machines and can find a better more equitable solution.
The only other comment I would make is that when I attack B17s I always get killed and when Im in a B17 I always get killed. Either way is a squeak and I just usually let it go at that.
Yeager
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Buffs aren't hard to kill... really. But 38k is totally BS in my books. I remember seeing LW reports that the only buff they ever saw over 30k (with bombs) were Mossies. Plus theres all the associated 'technical issues' (frozen nads!).
The best attack I've found is come vertical down, there is the least concentration of fire on average for the most lethal attacking option. IE, on the 17 on one gunner can track you. On the Lanc put everything into the cockpit... kills em real fast.
Currently I'm:
14 for 0 against Lancs,
16 for 2 against 17s,
5 for 0 against B26s,
3 for 0 against AR234s,
1 for 0 against JU88s,
and scarely 5 for 1 against TBMs (whoopee Bessy!)
That makes 20% of my kills (in tiffie) come from buffs, and 2% of deaths are caused by them.
So IMHO the buffs are ok cept for the silly 38k crap.
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Not to be a jerk, but buffs are not as easy as you think to kill. And one of the toughest happens to be the B-17. Against one fighter, it could hold its own, depending on how the fighter attacked. It's nickname, "flying fortress" was given to it by a reporter who flew in a mission during the war and witnessed it's awesome defensive firepower.
I can understand your frustration, it is a squeak to climb out to that alt and whack at something. 38k, is a tough alt for that aircraft especially considering it's electrical systems were prone to failure owing to the severe cold at that altitude.
It is a tough line here to tow, what do you do? One party has to suffer, be it the fighters, or the buffs. But I sympathise with yas, as I do with the buff pilot who spends 45 mins to position over the field only to have a one hit wonder end it all for him... frustrating both ways.
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they werent such a fortress without escorts, they were lambs to slaughter. 8th airforce almost halt to day bombing due to no escorts for the 17s, and they were losing alot per mission.
Originally posted by Bodhi:
Not to be a jerk, but buffs are not as easy as you think to kill. And one of the toughest happens to be the B-17. Against one fighter, it could hold its own, depending on how the fighter attacked. It's nickname, "flying fortress" was given to it by a reporter who flew in a mission during the war and witnessed it's awesome defensive firepower.
I can understand your frustration, it is a squeak to climb out to that alt and whack at something. 38k, is a tough alt for that aircraft especially considering it's electrical systems were prone to failure owing to the severe cold at that altitude.
It is a tough line here to tow, what do you do? One party has to suffer, be it the fighters, or the buffs. But I sympathise with yas, as I do with the buff pilot who spends 45 mins to position over the field only to have a one hit wonder end it all for him... frustrating both ways.
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Hmmm Bodhi... awesome defensive firepower doesn't make up for half-frozen gunners who have trouble leading fighters which they usually don't see til the fighter starts firing.
B17s were annihilated in daylight raids, and on their own were easy prey. Look at the LW guncam footage of 17s caught alone. Look at the LW aces that scored highly against buffs.
Doesn't matter how many big guns you've got, you've still got to put the bullets on the target, and thats where things came apart in R/L. Its much easier for 1 man, in a small figher, to hit a big arse slow buff.
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True that B17 wasn't no fighter hunter, but making a claim that it was "dead meat" is ludicrus. Please show me a historical situation where LW ended a day with 1 kill per sortied fighter against ANY bombers, much less B17s.
There are number of examples where Ju88s, He 111, B25 and other assorted bombers ran into overwhealming fighter opposition and yet in most cases, most of them made it out alive. Are guns too strong ? Yes, prabably are. But if you ever flew a Buff online in WB or AH you would understand why. It took you how long to get to 30k in that 152 ? 10 minutes ? It took him prabably in the range of 30 minutes to make it up there. And you want him to die without a shot at survival cause you were smart enough to find him ? Or he was dumb enough to roll in buff to begin with ?
Buffing in sims is dead, it has long been. Few dieharsd are still at it, but as HS proved, they are few and inbetween, simply because it's a waste of time in 90% of cases.
I say make buffs 10 times stronger to damage. Let's see you folks pour whole ammo load into a 17 and while about it afterwards...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Something wonderful is about to happend.. and i know what (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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did a test & a b17 cannot go to 38k???? ran from 18 to tl hq 75% fuel droped eggs & still could not get to 38 by the time i reached 48 & ran outa gas.
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IMHO,
I've had to change tactics against the different bombers. The fortress is one I generally do not try to go 1 vs 1 unless I have a good E advantage. In other words, adjust your tactics to the HT models and try not to use real life stats, they don't compare.
Nomde
63rd FS, 56th FG
"Zemke's Wolfpack"
(http://nomdegurre.tripod.com/signature.jpg)
"God loves the 56th cause we keep Heaven filled"
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Actual stats:
1 - 0 against Ar234s
12 - 2 against B26s
12 - 0 against B17s
5 - 1 against JU88s
13 - 0 against Lancs
9 - 1 against TBMs
And yes, buffs are definitively HARD to kill without getting killed (or serverely damaged) you too, unless you spend a lot of your precious time to set up the attack.
That's the point, you can kill them. But those kills are not worth the time needed.
Pepe, forget the buffs and dont leave, you still have a zillion of Spits to play with.
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Heheheh, in no way I'm leaving. I still LOVE this game and this community. Only that I was showing rather alarming signs of wear&tear (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). I'll just take a break, and, providing 1.07 is just showing his ear, It's a good landmark for the comeback. I am not cancelling my account either.
This point is a good example of how things were starting to get under my skin. I do not like whiners, and this post is one. When I can't refrain myself about posting like this, It's time to take a break, before it gets worse....just wondering If I will be strong enough to stick to my word and won't show before 1.07 does (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
<S> to all
Pepe
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Originally posted by Geeb:
did a test & a b17 cannot go to 38k???? ran from 18 to tl hq 75% fuel droped eggs & still could not get to 38 by the time i reached 48 & ran outa gas.
Geeb, I've made it to 35K on 50% fuel and still had enough fuel left to fly around long enough to hit three bases. Were your flaps up?
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cheers,
sand
screamin blue messiahs (http://www.screaminbluemessiahs.org)
The SBM's are hiring! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum11/HTML/000263.html)
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S!
About buffs...My suggestion is to remove enemy icons once and for all from buff guns and show only friendly ones.Makes the buffer harder to hit the plane at longer ranges,since no LTD(Laser Target Designator) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)And about toughness of buffs..Those Sturmbocks(190's) ripped them apart with only a few hits of 20/30mm fire.And the tail was their first target(kill the tailend charlie).After that the buff was dead meat since IRL the ball turret couldn't fire through the fuselage upwards (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)Enuf of this...Some kind of better balance is needed for buff guns and thier durability.
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DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/)
[This message has been edited by DB603 (edited 05-24-2001).]
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The B17 should be capped on altitude in the 30-32k(max). That would more closely follow the flight model.
ATC
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Every enemy in the main arena has shot me down in a buff. I spend 30 minutes on the average getting up in either a 17 or a Lanc, just to get to the target and try to get bombs away. I've never been above 20K in a buff...ever.
On a good mission, I die after having accomplished the bomb run, and hitting my targets. On an average mission, I may get a few eggs out. Any run into a defended target sees me shot down to no avail.
Pepe, no offense, mano, but I'm unable to sympathize that you wasted 40 (???) minutes and 70 perk points and got shot down.
Like I said, I fly low in bombers. But I completely sympathize with the guys who take them into the stratosphere. We've all seen the really new players in buffs for the first few times, asking for escort. Eventually, they just give up asking and start trying to climb to some kind of altitude where they can survive alone.
I guess I'm dumb...I don't care about survival. All I care about is getting bombs on target before I die. I have no idea how to look for scores, but if anyone wants to look at mine, I'll bet it will show that I RTB in a buff in less than 5% of my missions.
Pepe, dammit, you'll be missed. But as a matter of fact, if you nerf the bombers even more (they already reduced the damage mod on their guns), this game will become unenjoyable for the few people still willing to fly bombers.
Maybe that's what the majority want. Get rid of the bombers completely. LOL, get rid of everything but fighters seems to be the direction the game is going. Most of the changes I see in 1.07 are concessions to the fighter simmers.
My opinion is moot, at any rate. When they implement those changes, I'll be heading for greener pastures...and the Ardennes Forest (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Degas (edited 05-24-2001).]
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LOL, flew a 10k B17 to A12 yesterday, a 109 easily shot me down with excellent tactics on his part both sorties...I never made it to target.
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Ah, another semi-whine that the B-17s ability to defend itself is unfair. As a bomber dweeb, the B-17 has the best chance of the bunch to defend itself since it has so many guns.
The Lanc's are dead meat since they only have 3 gun positions...unless the fighter is a tard and makes a dead-six approach, shooting down a Lanc is fairly easy.
B-26s fair pretty well, since they are faster but with only 2 engines, they cant take the pounding of a 4-engine bomber (we just run out of engines (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ).
Ju88s are slow and their guns are commonly referred to as "Daisy Red Ryders" or "Nerf" guns, as they are -that- effective LOL....if a Ju88 shoots you down, hang your head in disgrace and wear the dunce cap! <JK!> I did shoot a Niki down once in a Ju88, perhaps I used more than 10 pumps in the BB guns? hehe
Arados, well...they've got speed and that's it. I don't know why I'm being shot down in them by Niki's tho...I was doing 400+, fired up the ratos and dived and one GAINED on me and shot me down. Maybe he was the better pilot, I dunno....but I didnt think a Nik could go that fast.
But anyways, I've seen this go back and forth...bomber guys like me upset that the fighters are mauling us, and reverse this, fighter guys upset that we're able to shoot them down. Did it occur to you that maybe the bomber guy got lucky? I shot down 6 guys in one sortie in a B17 a few days ago, there wasnt a lot left of me after that, but it was my best bomber flight to date.
One thing that drives me insane is that if my pilot is wounded, the random black outs effect my gunners (hate that, 6 crew members and one guys wounds effect all!). That's another disadvantage the bomber dweebs get.
So in grand summary, Pepe, I wouldnt get to upset over the loss to the B-17. The times I do fly fighters and take on a B17, I die since Im A)Not a good fighter dweeb and B) Am never patient enough to use tactics like 2-8 attacks. Face it, the B-17 got you, and that happens. I don't think its really worthy of a complaint and mild threat to leave Aces High (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Paul J. Busiere
Aces High Arena handle: BD5Pilot
http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
BD-5 "T" (TurboProp) 90% complete, first flight in 2001 (We hope!)
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The B-17G has 3018 kills and has been killed 4208 times.
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Hehehe, no, this is not a threat, mild or not, to leave AH. I'm too hanged for that, and I usually do not say things that I can't comply with. It's just that, on the first post, I could not resist to vent after what I considered an unfair situation, and an unfair duel, If we are to credit what's written about Buffs & Fiters in WWII. I won't hesitate in chasing a lone Buff that is porking our land, even if it takes me my 70 perkies out and 40 minutes of my time, as I don't hesitate in doing the opposite, and dive after one of them.
That post was made yesterday night in anger. When I read it this morning, I realized that, altho the whining was wrong, my decision is right. I have to take a break, since posting like that reveals an improper attitude state. You guys deserve more from me than this poor show. And my free time deserve it as well. I fly here to have a good time, and have good friends. When I want to fight, really, that's what my work is for. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
On a more constructive way, and back to the usual Buff clubbing, I ended up thinking that the toned up .50's are a step in just the wrong direction. Currently I think that the real tweak needed would be having Norden Sight "improved", bombs (only in Buffs) really beefed up (and "this" being the gameplay concession) and .50's revamped, in terms of angles of fire, firepower, dispersion, etc. As well as having high-alt effects modelled, mind freezing. For instance, having the gun positions loosing his ability to traverse fast, and then randomly disabled if flying over 30k for more that 1 hour (this working somehow as the WEP time does, and bearing in mind new gun positions indications: red:disabled, blue: freezing, gray: freezing to death).
I mean, you leave a buff getting to your field, and you have the field toasted. No multiple passes, no jinking. Let's say 3 or 4 eggs render the field useless, and ready to capture.
Why?
- Buff pilots know that if they make it to the target, they get the results.
- Fighter pilots know that it's worth to intercept, both in terms of chances, and in terms of potential damage to their airfields.
- Alt limit would be flexible enough to allow some strato-dweeb usage (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif), altho abusing from that would hamper severely the chances of surviving. And would be more close to the real thing.
- Norden....well you know my position about that already, don't you? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
On a side note, this is like smoking....you know, any of you smokers can quit anytime you want....HA!
Cheers,
Pepe
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Well, if you are taking a break, I should see a few more of these.....
(http://www.checksix.net/b17land.jpg)
....landings!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Unwind, relax, and come back!
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Paul J. Busiere
Aces High Arena handle: BD5Pilot
http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
BD-5 "T" (TurboProp) 90% complete, first flight in 2001 (We hope!)
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Pepe, I agree, there are some days that I choose not to attack a B17 alone, due to the 'bite' of the guns, and the painful process of setting up the proper attack if I'm at co-alt or slightly below.
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Pepe are you trying to hide from me and Hizakite (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mandy - cant let yer teammate run, yet. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cyas up,
LaVa
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What approach did you use to attack the B17? I've chewed up many players who think a dead six slow attack is the best, you say you dived out of the sun but I'm guessing you were not much above 38k yourself and certainly not doing much speed. If you use anything close to historical tactics against a bomber you will see him go down in flames, I'm not much of a shot but managed to down two B17's in one sortie a few nights ago in a P51 with plenty of ammo to spare.
Pepe posted:
In RL a single buff was dead meat for a lone fighter. Here it is quite the opposite
Whels1 posted:
they werent such a fortress without escorts, they were lambs to slaughter
Simply not true, the Luftwaffe took heavy casualties attacking B17's, they were respected as a salamanderly target even by Luftwaffe aces. They would have hradly nicknamed them the flying fortress and certainly not mass produced it if it had been such a weak aircraft. Many of the examples people like to bandy around these boards as examples of lone buffs getting eaten up by fighters are examples of bombers that had already taken near critical damage on the flight in or over target and not been able to maintain formation and dropped to much lower alt to limp home, by this time most of the gunenrs would be dead and flight controls severely damaged so for the marauding Luftwaffe pilots who saw such a bomber it would be like pulling the wings off a fly.
I sympathise with your plight against this stratto buff, I hate to see players game the game in this way. One of the rules of No.9 Squadron is to fly histroically as possible and that means our B17's don't go over 28k which was normal operating altitude and our Lancasters normally fly at 22k which again was the normal operating altitude for this aircraft. Its about time the bombers were given a complete overhaul in Aces High, time to look at things such as the guns, the gunnery system for buffs and the damage model as well as the damage done by the bombers ordnance. As an interim measure surely it is not beyond the capability of HTC to put a ceiling in for planes to stop them reaching unhistrorical altitudes, that goes for fighters too.
A small thought though before I go, Pepe was it not you that was dogfighting in a B17 a few nights ago against my Lancaster? If it was you it was one of the most dweeby things I've seen in a long time.
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Revvin
No.9 Squadron RAF (http://www.no9squadron.com)
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Its seems strange to me how some guys attack the buffs lethality yet many others kill them in one pass,Tactics ?
Last night I tried to B17 35 at 20k and got killed on one pass by a P51 screaming down from altitude.My squad mate tried to hit 35 at 15K and got killed by the same guy the same way.I went again but this time I went up to 28K.I got the ammo fuel barracks and also killed the same P51 pilot.I continued on to 35 and after the first pass,met a P51 and P38.After a duel I was lucky enough to get them both.P51 was the same guy as before.Because of the fighting it took me two more passes to take out the ammo fuel and barracks.Out of bombs,I headed home maintaining altitude because of the many enemy blips on screen.I always want to land the plane.After a bit,an nme blip kept getting closer and closer.I had plenty of fuel so I stayed up there.When he finally caught up to me over my home base,he circled low a few times and I finally got a lucky shot in and sent him down.Same P51,same pilot and a lot of persistance.He was as determined to get me as I was to bomb his base and land my plane.He had my foot jumping because I was so on edge with his manuevers.We passed salutes to each other and my respect for him was 100%.I did not whine when I died and he did not whine when he died.I enjoyed the flight although I ate up a lot of time.I think he enjoyed the chase although it ate up a lot of his time.When buffs get killed so easy at low altitudes,you leave them no choice but to go higher and that takes time,but its tactics.I do not think it has anything to do with the guns.It is the manner of attack of the individual fighter pilot and the individual bomber pilot.Some bomber pilots are good gunners too.Give them some credit.There are fighter guys that are very sucessful against bombers.I know.I have been killed by them in one pass many times.That is the game.
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Revvin,
I don't think it was me, I can't remember that. Although I would not put my hand on fire on that, I think I did not fly a single B-17 this tour. I've flown, as far as I can recall, couple of TBM's, couple of B-26 (trying to defend a capped field (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)), and some Lancs (not more than 2, if my memory suits me well). I am talking by hart, but no, I don't think I was the dogfiter.
I am dweeb like most of us here, but there some things I DO NOT do: carbombing, off-the-map flying, and dogfiting with buffs, if I can possibly avoid (that is, I am not trying to defend the dreaded only-buff-hangar-up field (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
About the buff episode itself, yes, I admit it is as whiny as it seems. Sorry (again) for that. On the technical details, couple of things, bear in mind that I had to climb to 40 k to have some chance against him. At that hight, even the Ta is very, very lazy, unless you have quite a lot of smash.
Im no hot shot, but I regularly engage with buffs, since they are very dangerous to our beloved airfields & radar (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif), so I'm quite aware of "safe" procedures to get the bomber down.
I have MOST respect for buffers who take chances & fly on a historical basis. I can't say the same for strato-buffs, altho I can understand alt's another weapon. What I suggest is that weapon be treated like WEP. If you run your buff over safe altitude your crew would have to suffer and, eventually, if you do not go down to normal levels, could be disabled.
As far as history is concerned, I had the idea that 8th. Air Force bombardments were just a bit away of being stopped, due to hvy attrition from LW fiters. And I thought the hvy casualtyies were due to escorts, not buffs itself, save a couple of them. Anyone has sound data on this?
Side note: retirement, even at this early stages, is making wonders. The more I see my post, the more it qualifies as a whine (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Cheers,
Pepe
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what timing. ... 1.07 is out now
so I guess you had a short vacation eh ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hehehe, no, LaVa, I won't leave my friend. Even if It was the most unpleasant thing (and it's quite the opposit) I had assumed the compromise of fiting the Loose Deuce ladder with him. Of course I will fly (and will do my best to make you a nice dotted flightsuit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
Just let us know when (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cheers,
Pepe
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People,
For bombers, go up in groups and lobby for escorts. Look me up I am always ready to scort bombers. One on one lets hope the better skilled one wins.
For fighters pair up loose duece and make rapid slashing attacks. Pepe I know how frustrating a satelite bomber can be. I more despise the bomber pilot that flys the plane like a fighter, to each his own I guess.