Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Bodhi on May 24, 2001, 08:08:00 AM
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It is totally amazing how many people in here are just absolute experts on everything. Here is a very simple hint to all you couch experts,
"Visiting a few airshows, museums, and reading a few books on a broad subject such as warbirds does not make you a freaking expert."
Neither do any of you have the right to spend 2 hours arguing in front of all as to whether Col Bong prefered to HO's from a slightly above level attitude or whether that actually constituted a HO.
I do not normally perch up on a soap box, but damnit, I have been working in the warbird industry for damn near 10 years. I have seen a lot, built alot, flown in a lot. That does not qualify me as an expert though, but the beauty of it is, I realize that.
Another simple hint that some of you need to realise, "Just because you read it, does not mean it is true!" Shortly before his death, I remember Col. Bruce Carr telling a few of us at lunch about a book (that will remain UNNAMED) that he appeared in, totally inventing quotes and generally not doing a proper job of retelling what he had said. We asked him why he did not make them fix it? He replied, "Why, I have been there and already done it, why argue with them."
The reason I tell you this, is simple, most of these books present quite a few ambiguiies when it comes to real life. I have seen books say one thing, and turned around and had the aircraft do something totally different in flight. My suggestion to ya'll is this, get out there and listen more and make less noise, you will be surprised as to what you can learn.
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Bodhi
-*Armageddon*-
[This message has been edited by Bodhi (edited 05-24-2001).]
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(witnesss dog walk up to a post, sniffs, lifts leg, walks away down the street)
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The amazing thing thus far is that you have made 7596 posts of absolutely the same drivel Ripsnort.
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Bodhi wrote:
Shortly before his death, I remember Col "Bud" Anderson telling a few of us at lunch about a book
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I do not believe that Bud Anderson is dead.
Krush
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Damn, if "Bud" Anderson is dead, then I shook the hand of a ghost!! Cool!
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Well Bodhi admitted he wasn't an expert. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I think the point Bodhi is trying to make is a good one. There is a lot of conflicting and inaccurate information out there for various reasons.
If you find something in a book... it's just something you found in a book. It might be true, but don't be surprised if there are other sources (books, articles, documents, or pilot anectdotes) which say something entirely different. And don't be surprised if the truth is "none of the above"! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-24-2001).]
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I believe he's confusing Richard "Bud" Peterson who passed away on 4 June 00 at Minneapolis, MN with CE "Bud" Anderson who is (to my knowledge) still alive. Capt. Richard "Bud" Peterson was a 15.5 kill ace with the 364th FS/357th FG. He was a slow starter and scored most of his kills during the last 9 months of the war. He was a Group-mate of CE "Bud" Anderson and Chuck Yeager. All of his Mustangs were named "Hurry Home Honey" which was the way his wife signed all of her letters.
http://www.cebudanderson.com/357profilehhhdtwotone.htm (http://www.cebudanderson.com/357profilehhhdtwotone.htm) http://www.cebudanderson.com/autographed_photos.htm (http://www.cebudanderson.com/autographed_photos.htm)
I have an autographed Nicholas Trudgian print signed by both Kit Carson and Bud Peterson. He was quite a gentleman and it was an honor to have met him.
[This message has been edited by Badger (edited 05-24-2001).]
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Bodhi,
I was just in Orlando a week ago and in the hotel they had multiple pamphlets over all the different area attractions. One of them was on warbird restoration.
Needless to say the wife had other plans and I never made it but I think it was in Kissimmee. Do you work there or have anything to do with them?
Just wondering,
Zippatuh
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was wondering the same thing. Also is there a place nearby, or same outfit, that sells rides in a P-51?
Eagler
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hey ripsnort
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/009779.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/009779.html)
??
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Tis true, there is so much conflicting data out there and so many cyberpilots think they know it all and shout down any opposing opinion.
I've read Chuck Yeager's Bio and he said the ONLY German plane close in performance to the P-51D was the FW 190, unfortunately, he doesn't specify which model...the Dora would be my guess.
At any rate Yeager flew combat missions in Europe, and test piloted quite a few planes and one would think "IF" there was an expert out there it would be him, so if I was gonna believe anyone's opinion it'd be his.
As for myself, I've never flown a airplane, I was a Jet Engine Mechanic on the GE TF-34 in the NAVY (1981-1989) and got some S-3A Viking simulator time when getting Engine turn-up qual'd, as well as having talked to the pilots after thier flights, so I'm not an "expert" but I know "a little" about aircraft and flight dynamics.
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Originally posted by Checksix:
hey ripsnort
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/009779.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/009779.html)
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Hey, checksix, don't know what your trying to say, but what I was trying to say is "Piss on them, Bodi".
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well rip even if it was the same joke in 7956 (he sure is touchy rip (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif))posts it still made me laugh my bellybutton off (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ahhhh, I thought the dog was lifting it's leg on Bodhi's post (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Although he's a fairly mental.....err, emotional, well more like touretts syndrome, (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) , Bodhi is a pretty good fellah, not to mention that he is a lucky bassturd for getting to work on old warbirds and meet some of the legends who flew them. I stayed at his house during the '96 AW con (which he helped out with quite a bit)and got to check out the shop he works at(Crazy Horse is parked in a hangar next door). All I can say is Nirvanna, total Nirvanna.
StuB
Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Hey, checksix, don't know what your trying to say, but what I was trying to say is "Piss on them, Bodi".
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My apologies on the Bud Anderson death, that was my mistake, was agitated when I wrote it, and did not realize the mistake until you pointed that out. I meant to say, Bruce Carr, a 51 pilot, that on top of being an ace, was also the first US pilot to steal a German FW-190 from a German field after a week of hiding out from capture from being shot down in his 51.
Zippatuh and Eagler, yes to both accounts. I work for the restoration facility in Kissimmee, the Warbird Museum, aka Tom Reilly's Vintage Aircraft. Stallion 51 Corp. is right next to us and offers rides in TF-51D Mustangs (actually Cavalier converted stangs) that are fully dual control. Also, at our facility there is an outfit, Warbird Adventures that offers rides in T-6, the kicker being that you ride up front regardless as to whether you are a pilot or not. I welcome all of you to come check this plethora of aviation history out when you are in the Orlando area. We are about 10 miles from the rat (Disney) near mile marker 15 on US192 (Vine Street) in Kissimmee, there are signs to the museum. While there, ask to see me, Bodhi, and someone will point me out if I am there and not chained away some where StuB =)
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I went to the Warbirds Museum in Kissimmee last year and did some flying in the T-6s that Warbird Adventures offer. They were flying the museums B-25 that day, and we did a little flying with it.
Lots of fun, take the opportunity to go if you have the time.
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Milo
"Preceive those things which cannot be seen."
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Bodhi,
I was out there last month with a few buddies on holiday. Had a great time at the Flying Tigers Warbird Museum. Was a very informative tour and I was amazed we were led right thru the restorations like that (that B17 is shaping up nicely). So, which one of the fellas was you ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
All I can say is that if anyone is headed out that way, to be sure and take it in. Fantasy of Flight was also worthy, as was collection of memorabilia at the Valiant Warbirds Museum near the Cape.
3rdUp
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Rip tell me you didnt just post almost 50 post in one day. DONT YA HAVE SOMETING BETTER TO DO! Like play AH!
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Amazing, simply Amazing!
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Can't play AH at work, or I'd have 50 flights in that same day! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Can't play AH at work, or I'd have 50 flights in that same day! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I feel your pain, Rip, same thing here. The ole P-133 laptop isnt up to it, and I suppose it would be bad to assist customers on the phone with 50 cal's and the drone of the B-17's engine blaring in the background....
Picky, picky, eh?
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Paul J. Busiere
Aces High Arena handle: BD5Pilot
http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
BD-5 "T" (TurboProp) 90% complete, first flight in 2001 (We hope!)
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Bodhi,
I know exactly what you mean about books and people.
My latest example is this, I am trying to find out how much ammunition was carried by the Mosquito FB.VI for each gun. You'd think this would be simple, but no, I have received the following ammo counts from sources of varying reliability:
1) 300 rounds for each of the 4 Hispano 20mm cannon and 2,000 rounds for each of the 4 .303 machine gun. From one of my books.
2) 250 rounds for each of the 4 Hispano 20mm cannon and 1,000 rounds for each of the 4 .303 machine gun. From another one of my books.
3) 150 rounds for each of the 4 Hispano 20mm cannon and 750 rounds for each of the 4 .303 machine gun. From WarBirds 2.77.
4) 150 rounds for each of the 4 Hispano 20mm cannon and 500 rounds for each of the 4 .303 machine gun. From an Australian AH member's book on the Australian version of the Mosquito FB.VI.
The general consensus on the BBS and on the SimHQ EAW BBS and NightBomber BBS is that option 1 is correct, but I don't know. At this point I am e-mailing RAF museums in an attempt to find out the real numbers.
Do you have any idea where I could get this info?
BTW, I am admitting I don't know and showing proper doubt of my sources. Not all of us claim to know all of this stuff, but I am pretty sure I know the ammo loads on Spitfires.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Originally posted by Karnak:
I know exactly what you mean about books and people.
My latest example is this, I am trying to find out how much ammunition was carried by the Mosquito FB.VI for each gun. You'd think this would be simple, but no, I have received the following ammo counts from sources of varying reliability:
One thing I have seemed to gather in my readings is that some, none or all of these figures might be correct for the specific airframe/ground crewman/pilot that was researched (or copied)
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I agree with Bodhi's original post. Conflicting sources are a real b*tch, and cyber aviation experts abound in the AH community. Having been formally schooled in research, both historical and legal, I recommend that before anyone preaches the gospel according to (insert author here),check, evaluate and weigh your source(s). Simply taking Joe "Aviation" Authors word for it is irresponsible and will irrepairably label you an uninformed amatuer if proven wrong. Personally, I try to only use proven, reputable sources (both primary and secondary) for my research and even at those I sometimes cast a skeptical eye. I don't want the first book I publish to be looked on as an poorly researched and documented POS. If you present me with a piece of information, be prepared for me to ask where you got it, with the authors name,publisher, page numbers, I'll ask if I can have access to it if controlled, etc. I will then do what I suggested above...evaluate and weigh the source and then either substaniate it or refute it and then I can tell you if I concur or if not, why not.
I must admit however I do get caught up in some of those ridiculous Ch. 1 discussions regarding various airplanes. Sometimes I have a source nearby to refer to, but sometimes I do not. I am relying on my memory in those cases, a thing I should not do. I do apologize as I know better. Sometimes I see people argue information that is blatently wrong. I don't think I will ever enter a discussion on "flight characteristics" of any plane because never having flown one under similiar circumstances, I couldn't make and informed and accurate comment. Being a licensed pilot in general does not qualify either. Unless you fly the plane in question regularly, under similiar circumstances you can't either. All planes are engineered, maintained and fly differently. Sure the basics are similiar but the quirks are what'll kill you if you don't know.
I work in the charter aviation industry as an A&P mechanic, quality control, and I help maintain the vast number of manuals that are required to keep these airplanes in the air. As Bodhi can testify to, having outdated and inaccurate information can be unsafe, illegal, and if warranted, criminal.
In this forum, I have seen some very good information for reinforcing cases posted in various topics; kudos to those of you who go the extra mile to get accurate information. While I cannot be considered an expert by any means in my research area, I am working on achieving that status, so if you must, fire away.
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Wait a second... I thought learning something new involved making mistakes????
-SW
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Initial post: Right on!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Salute,
IC
BTW, I made it to Kissimee in December. The museum is great. That was the first time I had seen WWII vintage AC. I remember walking in the hanger seeing a FW190. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Not to mention seeing the ball turret in the shop (B-17 is easily my favorite plane ever.)
Also flew at Warbid Adventures. The T-6 is wonderful.
Thanks, IC
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Another perfect example of this flagrant hypocrisy, is this character Wisk. He was on CH1 tonight going on about how the IL-2 was so poorly flight modeled (as if he had ever flown one) he then continued to blabber on about how the competition was going to have to do it better. Now this is what really got me. When countered as to how he knew so much about the IL-2 without having ever flown it, or been near one, he says, "I am an engineer, so I know how things fly." It is that flippant attitude that I feel ruins the community. My personal bet, is that he is some engineering student trying to look like a big man. Either way, hopefully he gets rid of that ego before he kills someone with it.
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Gotta admit, Bohdi's got a point. Way to many self-appointed know-it-all's around here. At the end of the day...this is a game and there is NO real life happening in AH..although HTC does a dang good job of trying.
Swamp
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Bravo, excellent thread on need to be healthily skeptical of all information no matter what the source. Even sources with the best data and intentions can make errors which are then compounded through the years.
I like the saying "Truth is not so much arrived at as it is surrounded."
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Now hopefully, the rest of the arm chair generals will arrive at the same conclusion, but I seriously doubt it.
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First, Bodhi, I dunno if naming names and making unprovoked attacks at folks is going to help. We've all seen morons online squeaking about this or that aspect on the basis of some shoddy piece of work; most of us know them to be asses, and frankly I think it superfluous to do so online. Besides, it's much more fun to string 'em along and hang 'em out to dry ("You hate the spitfire right now, eh? Yeah, well, you know, I was talking to HT the other day, and he said he was going to perk the G10 because he couldn't stand those LW alt-monkeys any more.") On the other hand, before calling them morons on the board, I'd wait for them to post. Then let 'em have it.
Second, you're right. There is no "Truth" out there; history is not the past, but rather the past as remembered (or better, as we choose to remember it). The first thing you have to do in any serious historical research is check your sources. That's why serious history books have tons and tons of notes in the back. A book saying "The Mosquito Mk. VI F/B had 500 rounds of 20mm per gun" has practically no value unless it tells us _where_ that number comes from.
There's no book out there that gets it "all right", and when you get to the bottom of the "facts", you'll have a buttload of contradictions. Whatever the case, odds are you won't get enough uncontested engineering data that the flight/gunnery/damage models will build themselves; you still need to make an interpretation.
Third, we should not underestimate the social value of whining. Whenever a group of relative strangers gets together, the first thing they do is establish a common bond. Ideally, that bonds forms along the reason for them getting together. But human experience shows that few people enjoy the same aspects of any experience. In AH, some love getting shot down, some enjoy furballing, some buffing, and so on. On the other hand, the negative aspects are invariably the same, and serve as great community builders. So, a *touch* of squeaking is not a bad thing. What _is_ a bad thing is when people do nothing but whine.
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Dinger, Well said.
I agree that a certain amount of squeaking must be there for the community, but out and out lying is what disturbs me.
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Thanks for stating your qualifications so graciosly brodi. What level of expertise should we have befor we post on your board?
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Simply put, I stated I would like to see less liars and bull toejam artists. I mean sheesh, add a couple inches to your fish, a few kills to your run, but do not lie about men you do not know or aircraft you know nothing more than a simple overview and a nifty picture. But yet with your 2100 posts, I guess you know all about it right?