Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Jackal1 on January 07, 2004, 07:54:47 AM
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Due to the evident lack of ACM knowledge and game knowledge in general in the MA let`s see if we can get some info out there for players. I believe one of the most unread things in AH is the manual or the help files.
Please post your favorite ACM/game info sites here or share your favorite manuevers, etc.
I`ll start it out with http://www.netaces.org . This is a very very helpfull site.
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One is http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com .
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IMHO the best way to learn is to die a lot. Reading descriptions of manuevers is a good way to get killed without learning anything. "Hmm, the Me-109 book says to execute a steep, spiraling climb, but he was able to follow and shoot me down anyway. Back to the Niki for me".
SA, energy/angles management, and timing can't be learned by reading about them.
ra
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Originally posted by ra
IMHO the best way to learn is to die a lot. Reading descriptions of manuevers is a good way to get killed without learning anything. "Hmm, the Me-109 book says to execute a steep, spiraling climb, but he was able to follow and shoot me down anyway. Back to the Niki for me".
I have to agree.. I never read a single paragraph from those websites.
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Originally posted by WldThing
I have two agree.. I never read a single paragraph from those websites.
It shows ... u are the sux !!! ;)
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All most people do in AH is cut throttle and stick stir till the person attacking passes them. Its sick. :D
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i think the only way to get the noobs looking at the websites is to highlight the websites when they enter the main in there 2 week's
but i think that 90% of these BB guys are not noobs
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When are you considered "not a Noob" anymore? Just asking..
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cmon -
ACM are easy.
ROOK - Climb really, really, really high - dive down really, really fast get shot by a knight.
BISH - Fly to any knight they see, get shot down.
KNIGHT - Fly to 8k and kill all fighters.:D
:rofl
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Originally posted by ra
IMHO the best way to learn is to die a lot. Reading descriptions of manuevers is a good way to get killed without learning anything. "Hmm, the Me-109 book says to execute a steep, spiraling climb, but he was able to follow and shoot me down anyway. Back to the Niki for me".
SA, energy/angles management, and timing can't be learned by reading about them.
ra
Well I can agree with part of that. The best way is to take them to the DA. Each time you kick their arse you tell them what they are doing wrong. When they stop doing things wrong, then you tell them the counters you are using to still kick their arse. Unfortunately nobody wants to take the time to do that. Or ego's are too big to share information in that setting.
If an artical on a site can get the reader to look at a situation they dont understand from a fresh perspective, it can be worth weeks or months of dying.
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Murdr,
I'd do it that way except I don't know how to explain what they're doing wrong.
It's mainly a few things most of the time:
1) don't know how to control the stall hard enough. Kind of like learning to drift in a car.
2) don't know hot to aim. Ballistics, relative speed, angle, distance.
3) don't know how to read the other's E
4) don't know how to manage their E. "What do you mean energy??"
4.a) don't know when to or when they are slow(ing) down
4.b) don't know when to or when they are stay(ing) fast
4a,4b are very easy of course. But untill they know how to do at least the first two, if not three, how do you teach them complex stuff.. Like teaching topology to beginning arithmetic students, or teaching a black belt pattern to a 1 week white belt.
The thing I did the most for my first few weeks, and then a bit less for the first months, was drills offline for an hour or so.
And just telling them to go do that by themselves, I can almost hear their teeth grinding in boredom. To be there with them for hours at a time just becomes work, I dunno if I'm a jerk or what, but I'm just not good at having fun doing that.
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Some of the above is exactly why I put this post up to begin with. In the MA over and over and over again you see peeps grinding out the "learn some ACM" -"Learn to fly"-"Learn the game" text messages.
I asked for info and ACM sites to be shared and get mostly negative , nonhelpfull comments. Same as in the MA.
I feel most newcomers come to the BBS for info initialy and this is what they get , just like the MA , so they don`t come back as they find it uninformative and unhelpfull.
If negative is all you can come up with , fine. Can`t you just keep it to yourself?
If anyone wants to share some informative info or sites , please do.
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notes to noobs...
1- fly plane thru hanger......easy you say.
2- fly plane thru hanger.....inverted.
3- fly plane thru hanger....pull up in big loop....come down thru hanger again.
4- fly thru VH hanger...good luck.
these are simply things you can do to learn to CONTROL your plane.....once you have achieved this....ask a VET to show you some basic STALL manuevers....how to keep plane from spinning AFTER performin a STALL....these are KNIFE fight manuevers...or TnB
then learn from a VET what BnZ is all about.
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Originally posted by Murdr
Well I can agree with part of that. The best way is to take them to the DA. Each time you kick their arse you tell them what they are doing wrong. When they stop doing things wrong, then you tell them the counters you are using to still kick their arse. Unfortunately nobody wants to take the time to do that. Or ego's are too big to share information in that setting.
Ive probebly taken half of my squad into the DA over the months ive been in AOM.. Giving instructions to fellas that may not be up to par with my skills is a satisfying thing, since i know i will need them to clear me next time we hit the MA..
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I would take someone to the DA, but first of all Im a poor bastige, second of all, I'd be teaching them how to suck! :D
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I was very tired last night when I posted, so here are the disclaimers:
I probably should have said too few want to take the time to do it. I also would add I am guilty of it to. I never arrived to that point of view until I started giving training in AW.
Rgr moot, that list can only be explained to a point, but they have to gain experience to recognize it.
Let me give an example of what I mean by pointing out "What you should have done...":
First I would have a new guy read something like this Basic ACM (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=9) (token link for jackal)
Then I would keep refering back to those points in the DA.
"you did good on those first 2 merges, but then what happened? Were you watching what I was doing? You always need to look back after the merge so you know what the other guy is doing. I went up and you did a flat turn."
Then keep building on that, and throwing in new manovers.
"That was a chandell. Did you notice how I entered the merge that time? That is a tell-tale sign that its comming, but you might see it with a normal merge too. You have to adjust against it in the middle of your immel or you will lose position"
Then start throwing in change ups.
"that was a chop throttle immel. its hard to spot in progress if you're blacking out your first turn. if you are going to try it, you have to make that shot count, because you give E away doing it"
Being the salamander I am, I like to follow that with a lazy immel while they are test driving the chop throttle. :)
Over sessions, it naturally advances into more advanced stuff.
Stuff like that is worth months of flying time IMO.
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*Robert Shaw's book "Fighter Combat"
* Spend Time in DA, film your fights, watch and learn
* what Slo said about flyin thru hangers, its fun too:D
*http://people.delphiforums.com/jtweller/training/tactics.htm#types lots good info here
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Fighter Combat by Shaw is the bible of all online flight sims, Read it, it's well worth it...
http://www.telusplanet.net/~dsoder/models.htm
This has plane specific info thats useful to newer players...
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you can read all you want but you will never get good unless you fight other guys.. if you want to be a good dueler then go to the DA and duel a lot.. if you want to be good in an MA environment then go to the MA and.... get into as many fites as you can... (you don't really die, you just start over).
Nothing easier to kill than a guy that's been flying for a year doing nothing than B&Z in fast planes.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
you can read all you want but you will never get good unless you fight other guys.. if you want to be a good dueler then go to the DA and duel a lot.. if you want to be good in an MA environment then go to the MA and.... get into as many fites as you can... (you don't really die, you just start over).
Nothing easier to kill than a guy that's been flying for a year doing nothing than B&Z in fast planes.
lazs
any time one spends in the DA learning how to handle themselves will only complement their SA and MA abilities.
anyone can fly a fast plane in MA, just like anyone can hang around with a lot of buddies and rack up kills in a furball. it's what happens when your fast plane gets caught, or all your buddies shot down and you find yourself all alone is what indicates just how good one thinks they are.
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well... I guess if your "fast plane gets caught" you had best be an La7. If you go into a furball with a lot of buddies.. they will probly get as many kills as you. If it's a real furball you are pretty much on your own. I figure every green guy is a "buddy" in a furball cause he looks red to the bad guys. He is a threat that they can't ignore. I like fairly even numberes in large furs because it gives the most targets for me.
being way outnumbered is hard to get kills without cannon planes... having large advantage in numbers makes the pickings too slim.
The reason planes like the la7 are so popular is because they can be untouchable with care or... they can mix it up if the odds are good. The real problem for them is if they have to fight a faster plane on their six and get tied up too long and the spits catch up too. Still... they have an excellent chance of killing the fast planes e and still gettin out before they get caught.
lazs
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Here`s another great site .
http://www.icongrp.com/~stagemon/ah/
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I'm currently reading Fighter Combat by Robert L. Shaw and I'd have to say it's a great tool to add with your experiences in the MA, DA, or CT.
For the average person coming into this game with little to no combat sim time it really helps. Graphs and experience alone aren't alway s enough for some to understand the concept of air to air combat. In a matter of days or even hours you can learn simple little things that in the past you may not have known or even paid any attention to. You'll better understand how and why others are able to defeat you and start to find ways to nullify what would have previously been your death sentence.
I'll warn anyone though who is looking into this book though it's not your average book. It's more of a book you'd find in a school type enviroment. Sometimes you have to read and reread areas to understand how everything goes together. It's definately not a "story telling" book like some are. It gets down and dirty and very indepth in many different aspects of air to air combat. It's definately worth the purchase price though.
One other thing to note is that not everything in the book will apply as not everyone in the arenas fight a logical or text book style fight. Adapting what you've learned and adjusting to every situation will be required. But overall many of the good sticks use every last bit of information in this book to some extent or another.
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The other night some of our squad were having a free for all in DA. I heard a few comments about my flat turns. After looking at the film, I saw exactly what they meant. This was new, because one of the things I did learn in AW was how to use the verticle and turn out of plane. Then I wondered if I had my view keys set up right. Since part of the ACM is keeping the target in sight, having the view keys set wrong should effect the look of the ACM (e.g, 6, up6, up, upfront, front is going to give a straight verticle loop upleft6, upleft, leftfront is going to give something else).
Having the the leftfront, rightfront, leftrear etc. views set wrong had me not using them much leading to a lot of straight verticle loops and flat turns.
For one thing, I was using the left and right 6 to compensate for blind spots on my six. Now I think thats inefficient use of the views. I had the frontright and frontleft views in the default position. I don't think thats very good either. Looking more to the front as if leaning your head out the window seems a lot more effective and useful when flying into the "elbow". Seems a lot easier to control closure in those views than in the front view.
I don't know about anyone else, but the way I do ACMs is by knowing what views to use to reference the target. I think having the inbetween views set up correctly will greatly effect the look of the ACM's. Anyway, thats what I'm working on.
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Here is another informative and enjoyable site. There is many days reading on this site alone. Some of these articles will give you a first hand/pilot view of planes, operations, etc. from those who were actualy doing it.
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
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for some info and graphics that display some of the more common manuevers.
http://www.vulch.cwc.net/acm.html
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And use the film viewer to find out how you got beat.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
And use the film viewer to find out how you got beat.
HiTech
to clarify for some noobs (or even vets) who might not know... there are two ways to views films, with the 2nd listed being the best as it's a more powerful viewer.
1. film button on the AH splash screen. basic viewer, good for screenshots.
2. ahfilm.exe - stand alone program found in your ah directory. this viewer has a lot of features that make it a valuable tool.
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Easiest way to kill an LA7 is to let him get to around 1.2 behind you and then chop throttle, drop flaps, and roll with a bit of rudder until he flies past, then pop him.
That's all the ACM you need to know in the MA.
Oh, and avoid the HO at the merge by going nose low at 2.0 and wait for the LA-7 to blow past over your head, then pull up and go into a bank turn as the LA-7 tries to turn with you. Chop throttle, drop flaps, and get inside with a lead turn.
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Originally posted by gofaster
Easiest way to kill an LA7 is to let him get to around 1.2 behind you and then chop throttle, drop flaps, and roll with a bit of rudder until he flies past, then pop him.
That's all the ACM you need to know in the MA.
Oh, and avoid the HO at the merge by going nose low at 2.0 and wait for the LA-7 to blow past over your head, then pull up and go into a bank turn as the LA-7 tries to turn with you. Chop throttle, drop flaps, and get inside with a lead turn.
methinks you need some time with me in the DA.
:)
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Originally posted by Shane
methinks you need some time with me in the DA.
:)
I don't DA. Sorry. ;) I'm addicted to killing LA-7s in the MA with my Corsair. Much more entertaining watching the n00bs come screaming down with the throttle wide open.
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Originally posted by gofaster
I don't DA. Sorry. ;) I'm addicted to killing LA-7s in the MA with my Corsair. Much more entertaining watching the n00bs come screaming down with the throttle wide open.
no. you misunderstand. it's not a challenge. it's an offer to edjumacate.
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Thanks for the offer, but I kinda find dueling one vs one to be kind of boring unless there's something to strafe after one of us wins, particularly in LA-7s. Its not really a plane I like to fly. I've tried it but I prefer the Yak9U for pure dogfighting. There are so many LA-7 pilots in the MA that the plane has lost its quirkiness. I'm all about quirky. Hence the reason I've flown the Ki-61, P-51B, Spitfire V, 190A8, and 109G2, and now the F4U-1D. Those are planes that aren't really seen all that much, not in the numbers of N1ks, P-51Ds, LA-7s, and Spitfire IXs.
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Easiest way to kill an LA7 is to let him get to around 1.2 behind you and then chop throttle, drop flaps, and roll with a bit of rudder until he flies past, then pop him.
LOLH I kill so many planes that do that manuever, if it is a 1 v1 I'll slow down with the the plane tuck behind and kill em, or if it is busy I'll yo yo and get the kill.
and 1.2 seems a little early - I would have so much time to react youd be dead.
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Originally posted by gofaster
Thanks for the offer, but I kinda find dueling one vs one to be kind of boring unless there's something to strafe after one of us wins, particularly in LA-7s. Its not really a plane I like to fly. I've tried it but I prefer the Yak9U for pure dogfighting. There are so many LA-7 pilots in the MA that the plane has lost its quirkiness. I'm all about quirky. Hence the reason I've flown the Ki-61, P-51B, Spitfire V, 190A8, and 109G2, and now the F4U-1D. Those are planes that aren't really seen all that much, not in the numbers of N1ks, P-51Ds, LA-7s, and Spitfire IXs.
I think he meant La-7 vs Corsair to make you more deadlier ... then again I could be wrong.
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Easiest way to kill an LA7 is to let him get to around 1.2 behind you and then chop throttle, drop flaps, and roll with a bit of rudder until he flies past, then pop him.
I bet this move works on a lot of people in the MA. However, it is very risky. The rare time you run into a true vet, or me, you'll be playing right into their hands. If you are voluntarily surrendering E, you are doing my job for me. I'll go up at an angle that does not afford you a gun solution, then YO-YO back down on your now foundering plane. A tougher move to deal with is the guy that ducks out of the way, then gets back in line for a shot at you. Levi is very adept at this, Drex too.(several others too, sorry for not mentioning)
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Originally posted by hitech
And use the film viewer to find out how you got beat.
HiTech
Thanks HT. It`s strange after playing for a while that some of the more simple , yet most effective things are taken for granted.
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Originally posted by Steve
I bet this move works on a lot of people in the MA. However, it is very risky. The rare time you run into a true vet, or me, you'll be playing right into their hands. If you are voluntarily surrendering E, you are doing my job for me. I'll go up at an angle that does not afford you a gun solution, then YO-YO back down on your now foundering plane. A tougher move to deal with is the guy that ducks out of the way, then gets back in line for a shot at you. Levi is very adept at this, Drex too.(several others too, sorry for not mentioning)
I didn't know you flew the LA-7, Steve. I thought you stuck to 'stangs. Levi does Spit V mostly, and that move certainly wouldn't work on a Spit V. So, really, other than Shane, who else flies an LA-7 as a regular ride? n00bs. :p
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I think he meant La-7 vs Corsair to make you more deadlier ... then again I could be wrong.
If he wanted to show me the LA-7, why would I be in a Corsair?
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Originally posted by mars01
LOLH I kill so many planes that do that manuever, if it is a 1 v1 I'll slow down with the the plane tuck behind and kill em, or if it is busy I'll yo yo and get the kill.
and 1.2 seems a little early - I would have so much time to react youd be dead.
LA-7 won't decelerate as quickly as a Corsair (F4U can drop gear earlier as additional braking). The reason for 1.2 is the rate of closure relative to the two planes. Distance can be shorter based on disparity of relative velocities. The gist is to force the overshoot and get out of the way, so long as you can catch the guy with his throttle wide open.
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gofaster you might wish to find out what a lag turn or yoyo is to prevent overshoots. Chopping thottle /droping gear is not a wise thing to do. Basicly you wan't to fly farthar instead of slower.
HiTech
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LA-7 won't decelerate as quickly as a Corsair (F4U can drop gear earlier as additional braking).
Sure will drop the throttle and kick the rudder, pull up the nose into a slight yoyo - good buy hog. If you want we can do it in the DA.
Your manuever is a noob killer for sure but it will not work on a seasoned pilot that is awake.
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Originally posted by hitech
gofaster you might wish to find out what a lag turn or yoyo is to prevent overshoots. Chopping thottle /droping gear is not a wise thing to do. Basicly you wan't to fly farthar instead of slower.
HiTech
I use the lag turn myself. Works well in the B-stang when chasing the D-stangs. ;)
Typically, once I see the guy go into a lag turn behind me, or go out-of-plane into a yo-yo, I know what he's doing. Usual result is a wobbly scissors as we both yo-yo around bleeding speed until one or both of us either stalls or drops nose and runs. LA-7s aren't going to out-turn a Corsair dumping speed, and once they realize that they usually run away. Tail shot with .50cals at d600 can usually knock loose a flap or a rudder.
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Originally posted by mars01
Your manuever is a noob killer for sure but it will not work on a seasoned pilot that is awake.
Very few maneuvers will work against a seasoned pilot that is awake.
That it works against n00bs is playing the percentages that fly LA-7s.
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Well, you got me there.. I have an aversion to flying the la7.
Hitech's comment is akin to my comment about voluntarily surrendering E. I'm not really an ACM expert, but I really try to horde my E and make the most out of it. It's why your comment interested me. :)
Like I said, I can see why your manuever would work against lots of folks in the MA, but you have more guts than I do. I'd be concerned about the next 2 or 6 guys coming in after I gave up that E. This is the absolute funnest part of the game for me though. To me, it's almost like a chess game, (the furball).
Along that line, I'd use a displacement move rather than your nifty "chop and drop". I'm already thinking about how to kill his friend after I shoot the first guy down. Still, I bet that move gets you some nice 1v1's. It's cool that you make it work for you.
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LA-7s aren't going to out-turn a Corsair dumping speed, and once they realize that they usually run away. Tail shot with .50cals at d600 can usually knock loose a flap or a rudder.
I fly the hog as much as the MA will allow, I would love to check out your results and see how you out turn an LA7 with it. I agree, I can out turn a noob LA7 that is not very good on the throttle in an hog, but I still think if you run into a vet your dead. Would you be interested in going to training or DA to see? Not a challenge, just a search for the actuality of this.
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I can't take credit for it, though. I learned it after the second time I lost a Spitfire to a Corsair against the Knights on the deck. After my wing separated, I realized that he was at full flaps with gear down. Can't remember the pilot's name offhand.
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Originally posted by mars01
I fly the hog as much as the MA will allow, I would love to check out your results and see how you out turn an LA7 with it. I agree, I can out turn a noob LA7 that is not very good on the throttle in an hog, but I still think if you run into a vet your dead. Would you be interested in going to training or DA to see? Not a challenge, just a search for the actuality of this.
I won't be online for a few more days; after-work volleyball commitments until Thursday. Check back then and we'll do some testing.
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Cool,
I look forward to it. Anything I can pick up to become a better hog pilot. 8)
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Originally posted by gofaster
LA-7 won't decelerate as quickly as a Corsair (F4U can drop gear earlier as additional braking). The reason for 1.2 is the rate of closure relative to the two planes. Distance can be shorter based on disparity of relative velocities. The gist is to force the overshoot and get out of the way, so long as you can catch the guy with his throttle wide open.
Not gangin' up on ya here gofaster, but I have to go along with Mars on this one ...
I have a fair amount of experience in the La-7 and have run into many a HOG that tried "air-brakes" thing-a-ma-bob.
My preferred counter is a zoom with a high yo-yo or rollover. That slows or stops the closer and puts E back in my pocket, while you have just lost a tremendous amount of E. At this point, you are in deep yogurt.
I do agree that most noobs in an La-7, their first reaction is to try and flat turn with you, which I am sure results in the scenario that you described with you pulling inside on their turn.
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I guess I do something similiar to that maneuver and will only do it against a opponent with a decent amount of energy. I'll never try it though against something with as good of a roll rate or better than mine.
I typically start mine in a shallow nose down left or right bank at approximately 1k out. So long as there closure rate stays fairly high and doesn't seem to be dropping off I'll keep pulling gently back on the stick. At approximately 400 to 500 out I'll complete a hard pull back then almost instantly going roll wings level and up to an inverted position. At that time I'll reaquire the target and roll back across our initial heading or roll away from there direction and extending out. So long as I have decent altitude to complete a a split s at the top if things go bad I seem to be fairly safe. But then again I have yet to learn the finer points of dogfighting.
I rarely run into some of the better sticks in the game even though I'm up looking. And I've only been flying for 6 months with very little one on one training.
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Originally posted by Cobra412
I rarely run into some of the better sticks in the game even though I'm up looking. And I've only been flying for 6 months with very little one on one training.
And the Pat Myself on the Back Society would like to give this one a Ten. A root too tootin, way to go, to you Cobra.
Yes note the reach around he gives himself and 3 firm pats direcly on the center of his own back Well done!
lolhrotff. I couldnt resist:D
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Actually Mars I was saying that I do infact still need experience but obviously your oh so greatness is only an *** that lacks enough intelligence to comprehend my statement.
It is infact extrahunks like you that make this game what it is and it's why no one but your own get better. Your so full of yourself you can't step back a second from your throne to make the enviroment a more challenging place to be. But ofcourse I'm sure you like it that way as it makes your job easier since you obviously are so great at flying an online sim.
I only wrote what I did because I can actually take constructive critism and I find that some unlike yourself are very willing to help. If my tactic is a mistake then maybe someone would help me refine it or try something else. But yet again you ofcourse are far from my unworthy skills that your ready to go jump into a real fighter and show the world what your made of.
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OMG dude just having a little fun with ya. Holy crap get a grip dude. Lay off the coffee. lolh Looks like we have asensitive one here 8)
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Mars at first I figured you were a fairly decent guy as most of your squad seems that way. By trying to verbally abuse me on here just shows your class. Long live the 2 year AH wonders that believe they are gods.
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Dude crack a smile and learn to laugh at yourself. You wont last ten mins here if you dont.
and no hard feelings.
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cc Mars
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It just gets rather old when folks seem to think that verbal abuse is a way to go about things. Look at channel 1 and every night it's the same bs beings spouted off by the same whining children. Ho this HO that, ram dweeb, spit dweeb, ect...
Whats even more funny is it's the people who've played this since the beginning. It's those folks who you'd think would have learned how to avoid such things and been able to grow up enough to not trash talk. But until HT does something with these folks AH will never change. Slowly but surely folks who rather enjoy the game will leave. Channel 1 trash talk gets rather old. I deal with whining brats like this at work all the time. AH is suppose to be my relaxation from my normal life, not dealing with abunch of over grown 8 year olds.
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Yeah I guess so man,
It's just that alot of people here have a very sarcastic sense of humor and are ball breakers. And for the real di#ks. F23k em.:D
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True Mars...Guess I'll just have to figure out the hard way who the jokers are and who th d1ks are. Again I've only been playing this for around 6 months so first impressions of some aren't that great. I've dealt with this in the FPS's so I guess I shouldn't expect any different from some here.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
My preferred counter is a zoom with a high yo-yo or rollover. That slows or stops the closer and puts E back in my pocket, while you have just lost a tremendous amount of E. At this point, you are in deep yogurt.
I do agree that most noobs in an La-7, their first reaction is to try and flat turn with you, which I am sure results in the scenario that you described with you pulling inside on their turn.
So, if I understand correctly, as soon as you realize you're going to overshoot, you pull up then roll-over. So how do you pull back down inside the Corsair's turn if he counters your high yo-yo with a nose-up yo-yo of his own? Wouldn't you end up in a wobbly yo-yo with the slower aircraft eventually ending up inside the turn of the faster aircraft?
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Originally posted by Cobra412
I typically start mine in a shallow nose down left or right bank at approximately 1k out. So long as there closure rate stays fairly high and doesn't seem to be dropping off I'll keep pulling gently back on the stick. At approximately 400 to 500 out I'll complete a hard pull back then almost instantly going roll wings level and up to an inverted position. At that time I'll reaquire the target and roll back across our initial heading or roll away from there direction and extending out. So long as I have decent altitude to complete a a split s at the top if things go bad I seem to be fairly safe.
That's the one. With enough air under your feet you can get the Corsair back into clean configuration and use its dive accelleration to get your energy back. Of course, this only works for the first or second merge. After that, you're almost out of altitude. Works well against Typhoons, too.
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So, if I understand correctly, as soon as you realize you're going to overshoot, you pull up then roll-over.
It's realizing early that you have a plane that is most likely going to try this kind of manuever and anticipate the slow down, so you don't get into an overshoot scenario to start with. I expect this from hogs and 47 because they decelerate so fast, so when I see the closure rate increase the jig is up and I am setting up for a nice controlled approach. If the hog does start to turn inside I'm the higer faster plane I can increase my climb angle, roll over and dive down on a floundering target. Even if you get the thing moving again you arent going to out accelerate an LA7 enough to get away, and you just bled your e so you arent going to get the nose up and start to out climb the LA.
One of the reasons I have gotten so good at this, is because I used to be so bad at it lol.
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Originally posted by mars01
It's realizing early that you have a plane that is most likely going to try this kind of manuever and anticipate the slow down, so you don't get into an overshoot scenario to start with. I expect this from hogs and 47 because they decelerate so fast, so when I see the closure rate increase the jig is up and I am setting up for a nice controlled approach. If the hog does start to turn inside I'm the higer faster plane I can increase my climb angle, roll over and dive down on a floundering target. Even if you get the thing moving again you arent going to out accelerate an LA7 enough to get away, and you just bled your e so you arent going to get the nose up and start to out climb the LA.
One of the reasons I have gotten so good at this, is because I used to be so bad at it lol.
Then we don't need to test it, since you've just proven that the overshoot won't happen because you break off your initial merge to set up for a second merge.
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I get what Mars is saying and I've started to get a little better at this anticipation thing. But one question for you Mars is if your expecting this do you setup your track angle so as to force the maneuver you want so to speak?
What I mean by that is if your closing on there dead six high or low they have more options than if you were per say slightly left or right of center during closure. Being slightly left or right of center ( 5 to 10 degrees) would typically induce the bogey to turn back into your tracking angle to force an over shoot of some type or close the the TA to a point of a making the snap shot extremely difficult.
If for some reason they don't go to this maneuver and bank opposite you've not necessarily lost the advantage but gone to a lag pursuit position in which you just have to saddle back up using a combination of high or low yo yo's. Or I'd assume if your energy state is better then you'd also have the option of zoom climbing out or using a shallow spiral climb to gain bank potential energy.
I'm not sure if this thought process of mine is logical but it seems correct on paper. But ofcourse not everthing on paper works as it's drawn.
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herding.
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Then we don't need to test it, since you've just proven that the overshoot won't happen because you break off your initial merge to set up for a second merge.
I'm not sure I follow you on the break off? If the guy is slowing and I don't have to worry about another bandit coming down, then I will slow with the con enough to get the shot.
I guess the second merge you are talking about is if I pull up, roll over and dive down? But really it's just a delay to the initial merge but now were just talking semantics I guess.
Yeah I think your right no need to test.
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But one question for you Mars is if your expecting this do you setup your track angle so as to force the maneuver you want so to speak?
Not really. Dead six keeps my options open as well. As you stated if your off angle, it gives the bandit a better angle to beat the snap shot, if it comes to that. But in the scenario the con is dumping e for an over shoot, if I slow with him usually by the time he realizes there will be no overshoot, I'm in gun range.
If it starts angle off and I am higher, I will chase enough to get them thinking about turning. If I have adequate alt, and they start to dive under, at this point I may slow some roll inverted and wait to see if they are going to commit to the turn. Once they commit I'll roll my wings in thier direction and pull back diving in behind or on them. Again speed is the factor here. Depending on the space between myself and the con I may pull back to idle anticipating speed gain in dive.
If for some reason they don't go to this maneuver and bank opposite you've not necessarily lost the advantage but gone to a lag pursuit position in which you just have to saddle back up using a combination of high or low yo yo's. Or I'd assume if your energy state is better then you'd also have the option of zoom climbing out or using a shallow spiral climb to gain bank potential energy.
Yeah, I think I agree with that.
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cc Mars... In the scenario I'm think the con is bleeding of energy not necessarily by throttle but by maneuvering(if done correctly I'd assume the average pilot wouldn't notice much). Slowly loading a less agile turning aircraft through a slow and gradually increasing turn.
This is ofcourse if the attacking fighter is aggressive and pushing a lead pursuit position. Then once in tight enough but not to the point of getting a decent high deflection shot, a sharp hard turn in the same direction by the defender. If the attacking pilot is an average pilot he is most likely going to go to a high oblique turn in the same direction above the defender or extend out for another engagement.
This same maneuver on a more experienced pilot would show the lead pursuit and expect this counter. By that they are infact setting the defender to do what it expects it to do which is force a hard high deflection shot/overshoot. If the attacker is also hidding there energy well enough then they can high/low yo yo or wing over to defeat the turn and get back inside them.
At that time the attacker could also force a rolling scissors opposed to the flat scissors that the defender is mostly likely trying to setup. Because the attacker has potential energy and the defender has burned much of his this would seem to be the best possible solution.
I don't know but I guess this is also more towards two disimiliar aircraft with the high wing loaded aircraft being the attacker. I'm can understand some of the ACM thing but I'm not sure if what I'm seeing and what they are meaning are the same thing.
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Originally posted by gofaster
So, if I understand correctly, as soon as you realize you're going to overshoot, you pull up then roll-over. So how do you pull back down inside the Corsair's turn if he counters your high yo-yo with a nose-up yo-yo of his own? Wouldn't you end up in a wobbly yo-yo with the slower aircraft eventually ending up inside the turn of the faster aircraft?
gofaster ...
I am envisioning an La-7 that has alot of smash or the HOG is real slow cause the closer rate is real fast.
Once I pull up, I reaquire the target and continue the zoom until I see what the HOG has actually done. If the HOG starts to pull nose up, I will continue the zoom hoping for a rope if I have judged the HOGs E state correctly. If the HOG continues to turn, I will level the wings and then start to set up BnZ passes.
So many variables ... so many things to do.
Glad to see my buddy Mars put the darts back in his pocket. I have fought against Cobra on a few occasions and had some good fights. For someone who has been flying for 6 months ... maybe AH for 6 months ... methinks that he has experience elsewhere, cause he is not to be taken lightly when engaged.
Good discussion here ... I have learned a few things from it.
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Attaboy Slap!!! Why react to what the Hog does when you can zoom(I prefer to spiral over and wait for the ideal angle to present itself), reacquire, and dictate the fight?! If you're in a hurry for a gun solution yo-yo back down and take the shot that is presented. If you're like me you'll go up in your zoom, spiral and have a look around. If you've got time, use the spiral to put yourself in the best position for the end game, as the E bleeding Hog flounders helplessly below you.(man just typing that caused a pavlovian response)..... I can see big blue down there, the pilot realizing his options are gone, keying his mic and trying to find someone to helpl him out. Freindss answer they are "OTW, hang on!"
Hehehe, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Too late!!!! They'll arrive just in time to see their friend's pieces rain across the landscape. Only as they look up at my shiny pony do they realize they themselves have been ensared. Next!
OK OK... I'm better now... love the chess game!
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Originally posted by hitech
And use the film viewer to find out how you got beat.
HiTech
Hey HiTech... any chance that the film viewer in AH2 will (or could) show control surface movement?
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more telemetry, even in raw format, would be cool too :)
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Ahhh Steve, patience is the true skill to master in this game.
Thats why your landing kills and I'm dying with kills lol :D