Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: gofaster on January 07, 2004, 09:22:40 AM
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I think this is a huge accomplishment that won't be fully appreciated until later this year or next, when the general population realizes what it is we've really achieved through science and technology and the strength of human endeavor. The Rover has the potential to push our knowledge of "what's out there". We've had probes on the planet before, and (if I'm not mistaken) other robotic vehicles to move about, but what makes this one so unique is the fact that we can now accomplish so much more with the tools we have available.
The fact that we can control robotic vehicles at this distance simply boggles my mind.
When you factor in things like solar interference, radiation, two planetary atmospheres, and signal dispersion, its simply amazing how much control we have. And clarity of the pictures is outstanding!
Our missions to the moon were "pushed" by the Cold War Space Race. Our missions to Mars are "pushed" by ... what? Two things: a quest for knowledge, and the need for NASA to show that it is capable of being the guardian of America's quest for space travel. NASA needs this mission to be successful just as much as America needs this mission to be successful. NASA has stumbled along its journey to this point - Challenger, Hubble, and Colombia for example. And two dead Mars probes lost due to mathematical errors.
Some posters claim that NASA is in it for their own wealth and power. I disagree. Actually, on average, the jobs at NASA pay below comparable jobs in the private sector. I know because I turned down a job offer from Kennedy Space Center because AT&T pays better, even with AT&T's salary increases frozen for the next 2 years. NASA is losing potential talent due to job market competition, and from the meetings I had at KSC my feeling about the folks there is that they are motivated by the same spirit that moved all great inventors - the basic need to know, to explore, to create. There's no dollar signs attached to the end of a successful mission, at least not in their paychecks. The real payoff for them is the knowledge that they get back for their efforts. And its our payoff, too. But to make the commitment to NASA usually means a paycut, and that hurts, particularly with so many outside investments having gone bust or on the way to going bust.
The Mars probe did more than save NASA. It saved America at a time when America is facing threats of terrorism and foreign criticisms of military policy.
It shows that we can still achieve great things. It shows that we're still capable of successful space exploration. It shows our preminence in the world of science, technology, and, more importantly, our willingness to sacrifice to achieve.
And it shows our willingness to share our knowledge with others.
At no charge.
Kudos to NASA and the "Spirit" team on a job well done.
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Kudos to NASA and the "Spirit" team on a job well done.
So obvious it should go without saying. I'm sure most people can appreciate it's not exactly a walk in the park at any stage of the project. The Beagle II mission and all the failed probes before adequately demonstrate that.
The Mars probe did more than save NASA. It saved America at a time when America is facing threats of terrorism and foreign criticisms of military policy.
'Saved' America? I think you're stretching things a bit too far there. Saved from what? Destruction? Comments on some obscure internet BBS? I'm not sure what you mean.
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Sorry, should've given more background.
Following the successful landing of the first men on the moon, NASA received a thank-you note from a lady who wrote:
"Thank you for saving 1969."
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We are on mars because of 1) Sputnik and 2) Bad government programs rarely go away.
Hooligan
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I see gofaster. Bit early to decide if 2004 needs saving, no? ;)
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I personally am not sure why we need to explore Mars, or why it matters to us if there was ever water on Mars. Maybe someone feels it relevant to predict the earths long term future. Honestly, I am not worrying about stuff that far out, but a few brilliant minds must be.
Either way, the landing on and exploration of Mars is quite an accomplishment and we will no doubt recieve benefits in our society from technical advances developed to make this accomplishment possible.
Would be nice if they would give us some ideas why understanding Mars matters right now, other than to tickle some geologists fancy.
dago
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Oh yeah, Dowding, you should get together with Beetle and Miko, have a group hug and share your ideas about why everything the USA does is wrong.
(not that we care)
dago
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It doesn't neccessarily benefit us in any way. I'd class it as pure science with a vague, romantic, long term vision of somehow rescuing the Earth from some bleak future. Not sure how that vision works since I don't share it at this time.
But there's nothing wrong with science for science's sake - if you believe you can afford the expense...
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There is no question that Mars exploration is quite an accomplishment. So were the creation of a textile industry or railroads.
My only problem is the general oppositions to all projects built or funded through slave labor.
miko
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Read in the paper that Nasa guys said landing the probe were they did is like threading a needle from 15 miles away. That is cool!
As far as saving america...I wouldnt say the mars probe saved America but it did give a much needed win to NASA. Just like a footbal team having a bad season.....a good win can turn it around!
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At least Miko is able to form his own opinion on what he reads and hold his ground without resorting to childish insults when challenged. Unlike yourself, for instance, whose knee-jerk reaction practically defies the laws of physics. I might not agree with everything he writes, but it's usually interesting reading and I get the impression it is far from the cut and paste banality we see from certain people.
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Mars candybars are teh suck.
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Originally posted by Dowding
I get the impression it is far from the cut and paste banality we see from certain people.
He memorizes. :)
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Wish I had a memory like that. Would have been very useful a few years ago. ;)
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My only problem is the general oppositions to all projects built or funded through slave labor.
HUH? Relevance to topic? Huh?
I guess you are in support of projects built or funded by slave labor. Must be a Ukraine thing.
At least Miko is able to form his own opinion on what he reads and hold his ground without resorting to childish insults when challenged
I feel you are wrong accross the board here. I have come to my own conclusion that Miko is not originating most of the "concerns" he expresses here, but rather I suspect he is subscribing to some type of newsletter that he reads and brings those ideas over here, in what would best be described as a "cut and paste" mentality.
He has failed to hold his own in many arguements, if you read carefully he will post some wildly irrelevant nonsense in response to someone challenging him in a way to obscure and confuse. This isn't holding your own, and it isn't winning an arguement, it is subscribing to the theory of "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS" method of arguement.
As far as insults, he has many times insulted those who argued with him, and often employs his little game of "you dont understand, or you dont know anything about xxxxxx" in some perverted little manner to try and put himself in a superior position in an arguement.
Of course you are his cheerleader dowding, he rails against the USA and everything about it, and this feeds your anger and envy of the United States.
No, I dont think he is brilliant, I think he is easily lead by some Libertarian group, or some other group who choose to see conspiracy around every corner.
dago
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Would it be worthwhile to try another human lunar landing? I'd be interested to see how well the modules from the previous flights have held up to the rigors of existence on the moon surface.
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Originally posted by ra
Mars candybars are teh suck.
Well, I suppose ra is at least on topic as we're talking about Mars. :) But it has to be remembered that candy bars are known by different names in different countries. What the UK knows as a Mars bar is known in the US as a Three Musketeers. What the US knows as a Mars bar is known in the UK as a Milky Way.
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You think this is exciting, just wait until we land on Titan in July of 2005. The potential for discovering the beginnings of life or even simple, single celled organisms is greater on Titan than perhaps anywhere else in the system.
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Re: Candy Bars
I prefer the Baby Ruth, second to that the Snickers. But of course, Rollos is the best.
dago
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
You think this is exciting, just wait until we land on Titan in July of 2005. The potential for discovering the beginnings of life or even simple, single celled organisms is greater on Titan than perhaps anywhere else in the system.
I heard the moon Europa was another good place for finding life, they think there is liquid water under the ice surface.
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Welcome to mars! :)
(http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rover-images/jan-06-2004/P2302-540-361.jpg)
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Titan and Europa both.
Dago - you complaining about his personal attacks is a little hard to swallow given the nature of the thread you started today, and given you've made a personal attack in just about every post you've made today.
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miko: My only problem (with government projects) is the general oppositions to all projects built or funded through slave labor.
Dago: I guess you are in support of projects built or funded by slave labor. Must be a Ukraine thing.
I said that I have a problem with projects that are based on slave labor no matter how worthy they seem. How do you read it as an endorcement of a slave labor?
I feel you are wrong accross the board here. I have come to my own conclusion that Miko is not originating most of the "concerns" he expresses here,
Of course not. I came to this country pretty ignorant about theory of liberty. In the Soviet Union I did not have unrestricted access to the books available in any US store - Founding Fathers, philisophers they learned from, Adam Smith, Mises, Friedman, etc.
He has failed to hold his own in many arguements,
A less arrogant person would say "he failed to persuade me" or "I do not agree with his position". But you think you know the universal truth.
if you read carefully he will post some wildly irrelevant nonsense in response to someone challenging him in a way to obscure and confuse.
It sounds almost like an admission of your own stupidity.
As far as insults, he has many times insulted those who argued with him, and often employs his little game of "you dont understand, or you dont know anything about xxxxxx"
So? After I say that a person does not understand something, I go to a great length to elaborate my point so that a person understood it. That's what the discussion is about.
I may not be the best at explaining stuff, but disrespect to audience is expressed in ignoring someone's opinion, not opposing it and taking time to argue it.
in some perverted little manner to try and put himself in a superior position in an arguement.
Why would I argue my position if I did not believe it to be superior?
he rails against the USA and everything about it, and this feeds your anger and envy of the United States.
Not as much against USA but against government oppression in general.
I think he is easily lead by some Libertarian group, or some other group who choose to see conspiracy around every corner.
You are dumb. The libertarian views are not based on belief in conspiracies but on the knwolege of the laws of economics and social development and the consequences of ignoring them.
We are not saying "Bush is evil" or "Clinton is evil". We are saying "socialism is evil", "coercion is evil", "illegitimate government is evil".
miko
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Miko - do us all a favor and start your own thread about this ****.
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I hope Beagle 2 says hello... even with that crappy Blur mini-song.
Daniel
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Originally posted by Dowding
Titan and Europa both.
I'm too lazy to look up Titan on Yahoo. :p Is that one of Jupiter's moons?
I'd heard there was a remote possibility of water, and hence an even more remote possibility of life, on Io.
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I said that I have a problem with projects that are based on slave labor
No, you said you have a problem with opposition to slave labor. This would indicate you are in favor of slave labor.
My only problem is the general oppositions to all projects built or funded through slave labor.
It sounds almost like an admission of your own stupidity.
Oh, so glad to hear I am the only who makes personal attacks, yet you fail to address or answer my statement. Typical.
So? After I say that a person does not understand something, I go to a great length to elaborate my point so that a person understood
Quite a bold lie that one. You often dont bother to explain why you think someone fails to understand.
Why would I argue my position if I did not believe it to be superior?
Argueing your position because you feel it is correct is understandable, its belittling the understanding of an issue that is your sad attempt to putyourself in a physcologically superior position through degrading the other person that is the issue. Telling them they dont understand the issue is doing just that. You told me I dont understand money. Damn funny, specially considering you know nothing about me, know nothing about my background, my education, my material worth or my experiences is investing. But, lacking any of this knowledge, you stated I know nothing about money. Based on research? No. Based on your desiring to make me feel inferior to you, yes.
You are dumb. The libertarian views are not based on belief in conspiracies but on the knwolege of the laws of economics and social development and the consequences of ignoring them.
We are not saying "Bush is evil" or "Clinton is evil". We are saying "socialism is evil", "coercion is evil", "illegitimate government is evil".
Well thank you for acknowledging my suspicion. You are simply parroting Libertarian views taken from a newsletter. And thanks for again proving I am not the only one who might hand out a personal insult.
he rails against the USA and everything about it, and this feeds your anger and envy of the United States.
Not as much against USA but against government oppression in general.
The USA is the sum of it's whole. When you attack the government, you attack the leaders the people have chosen to represent them. If we the people fail to live up to your expectations, again I will invite you to find another country to live. I respect challenging government actually, it's a fundemental right and responsibility necessary to keep us free and to retain our rights. But you dont do that. You instead get on this board, irrelevant to effecting change, and spout anti-USA nonsense. Why dont you invest your time and efforts contacting Congressmen to make your opinions known?
dago
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Originally posted by gofaster
Sorry, should've given more background.
Following the successful landing of the first men on the moon, NASA received a thank-you note from a lady who wrote:
"Thank you for saving 1969."
to be perfectly accurate, it was in 1968 (a very troubled year) on the first orbit around the moon by apollo 8
but I see your point !;)
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Yeah, yeah , yeah.
I think they should host battle bots on Mars. Now that would be impressive.:D
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Originally posted by Dago
I personally am not sure why we need to explore Mars, or why it matters to us if there was ever water on Mars.
Would be nice if they would give us some ideas why understanding Mars matters right now, other than to tickle some geologists fancy.
It's a scientific question.... and to some point a philisophical question - as old as man's ability to think.
Is there life "out there"
Are we all that there is?
Why is water so important?
Because every where on earther there is water - there is life. In the hotest springs, in the most arrid deserts... in the frigid barren cold... there is life.
Where is water most likely to exist on Mars?
Well water flows down hill... so at the bottom of a crater... a crater that has evidence of a dried up river flowing out of it.
That's where spirit landed.
Dig into the setiment... and if life lived there... fossil remains of life will be there too.
These are exciting times for sure...
Imagine what it was like to live in the 1500 hundreds.. finding out that the earth is not flat... and there are distant continents to explore with plant life never seen before... people and cultures to learn about...
What if buried under layers of Martian dust are ruins of an ancient civilization...
What if there really is life "out there" and they deliver take out Chinese.. and it's really good!
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Of the 30+ missions/probes to Mars, two thirds have been lost/destroyed/complete failures.
The Russian space program tried 5 or 6 times for a Mars landing and was successfull for 20 seconds with only one.
Japanese "Nozomi" was lost to failure.
The last two NASA missions were lost. One due to a metric error and another due to a software error. Oops!
All of these missions were extreeemely expensive failures. Although the Viking landings were successfull, they were deemed a "disappointment" because it had found nothing... no water, no life, nothing it was programmed to find. No other Martian missions were attempted for two decades.
Now, at the risk of losing future funding after embarrassing failures, it was absolutely imperitive that the Spirit landing be successfull. Spirit, however, has achieved nearly the "best case scenerio" and even landed in the 'sweet spot' as some are describing.
I agree with Gofaster that it saved NASA's credibility and, in a very small sense, "America"... strictly in a scientific way... not to be confused with terrorism or politics or any of the other garbage so often debated here.
I wanted to get that in, and it'll probably become lost in the rest of the garbage produced in this thread :D
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Originally posted by Nakhui
Exactly. A scientific AND philosophical way.
Of ALL the possible locations (billions and billions of galaxies and star systems) to search for life, if we find the existence of life SO close... our next door neighbor, the first place we look... and are successfull, then there exists life everywhere in the known universe(s).
Thats a pretty damn powerfull find IMO.
Side benefits would ensue. Talk of terraforming Mars in the future. Of course, not until it's sufficiently explored and analyzed (waaay down the line). Future habitable area for humans?
Just as the world was "illuminated" when Copernicus discovered that the earth wasn't the center of the solar system/universe, but that planets orbited the Sun, if we find life on Mars, (again the first place we look), then again, I think the world (all of humanity) will be enlightened/illuminated. Heh, no I'm not speaking of the secret organization ;)
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Dago: No, you said you have a problem with opposition to slave labor. This would indicate you are in favor of slave labor.
It ment "My only problem with this mars exploration is the general oppositions to all projects built or funded through slave labor."
I may not be very punctual while typing fast and Englist is not my native language but I am sure it is obvious to anyone - especially to people familiar with my earlier posts.
If you have to resort to a typo to attribute a support for slavery to me - which would be contrary to a point I was trying to make in this argument - it just shows your level of maturity.
Oh, so glad to hear I am the only who makes personal attacks, yet you fail to address or answer my statement. Typical.
I said "It sounds almost like an admission" - which is a qualifier that satisfies the requirements of politeness.
You said my arguments were too obscure and confusing to you. That is an indication that you may be out of your league. Not every issue may be explained in two words.
Quite a bold lie that one. You often dont bother to explain why you think someone fails to understand.
I only have limited time, so when i am explaining a matter to one person, it can hardly be held against me that I am not explaining something to another person. Especially if such an issue was already covered in my previous posts. Surely, a person seriously interested in explanation is expected to do some search and reading. If he does not, why should I prefer him to someone with a more fresh issue?
Telling them they dont understand the issue is doing just that. You told me I dont understand money. Damn funny, specially considering you know nothing about me, know nothing about my background
I base my opinion on what I read here that you post. I believe you do not understand about money. So what? Why do you find it so offensive? Even if I am incorrect?
Well thank you for acknowledging my suspicion. You are simply parroting Libertarian views taken from a newsletter.
OK, you claimed that libertarian views are based on the conspiracy theories. When I countered that obvious nonsense, you said that it confirms your opinion that I am saying the same things that libertarian sources. Does it mean you were aware that libertarian views are not based on conspiracy theories? Then why did you claim otherwise?
Also, you are acting as if I am hiding my libertarian views. Damn right I am a libertarian an I read a lot of libertarian books and other sources. I've also read many anti-libertarian books like Keynes' "General Theory", Capital, Mein Kamph, The Federalist Papers, etc.
I study the wrong views as carefully as the right ones - how they originate, why they hold such an influence over people.
The USA is the sum of it's whole. When you attack the government, you attack the leaders the people have chosen to represent them.
So what? At no point in the last decade was the government elected by more that a quarter of the electorate. And even if it was elected unanimously, why woudl it be wrong to criticise the government - this particular one or the very concept of totalitarian government in general?
it's a fundemental right and responsibility necessary to keep us free and to retain our rights. But you dont do that.
Retain our rights from infringement by the government. So by illustrating how they are increasingly infringed, I contrubute as much as anyome can hope to preserving them.
miko
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Miko - WTF does any of your agenda have to do with the Mars landing?
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What a concept. Someone actually trying to keep a thread on topic.
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It's not lost yet.
Agendatards get lost. Mars is much more fascinating. :)
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" Mars - why we're there."
White Collar Welfare :aok
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Originally posted by Hooligan
We are on mars because of 1) Sputnik and 2) Bad government programs rarely go away.
Hooligan
Hi Jay :aok
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Originally posted by Octavius
Side benefits would ensue. Talk of terraforming Mars in the future. Of course, not until it's sufficiently explored and analyzed (waaay down the line). Future habitable area for humans?
I dont believe that Mars could be ever terraformed, since it doesent have magnetic core like Earth has. Everything that sun sends to Mars hits the surface. There isnt anything on the Mars valuable enough to be transported to Earth. Only thing there is to do is to study its geological history, which will reveal what it looked like in the past. It would be interesting to know whether it had magnetic core previously and why it stopped, could that happen to Earth too.
Earth will be the best place to be in this solar system for humans always, there is not much reasons to send humans to other planets. But its the proving ground of future robots. Even today many robots surpass humans in the things that they were designed for, only thing that they lack currently is the versatility. That will change soon.
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First you say this:
After I say that a person does not understand something, I go to a great length to elaborate my point so that a person understood it.
Then you say this:
I only have limited time, so when i am explaining a matter to one person, it can hardly be held against me that I am not explaining something to another person.
You tell someone they don't understand, or they know nothing about an issue or subject, blow them off, and you now offer contradictory comments. Of course, your second quote here is all BS anyway, you say that now because it sounds good you think, but it isn't true and doesnt represent what you really have done in the past. And you dont have limited time, you spend countless hours on this board.
If you have to resort to a typo to attribute a support for slavery to me -
I will accept your language issues as reason enough here, even I dont think you are in favor of slave labor, just wanted you to clarify that statement. I still have no clue how you found slave labor relevant to the Mars exploration. I am pretty sure all NASA employees are paid a salary and allowed to go home after work.
I base my opinion on what I read here that you post. I believe you do not understand about money. So what? Why do you find it so offensive?
What I find offensive is you making blanket condescending statements about me or others just to try and make yourself seem to hold a superior position in an arguement. Do that through knowledge and rebuttal, not through a tactic belittling others.
Retain our rights from infringement by the government. So by illustrating how they are increasingly infringed, I contrubute as much as anyome can hope to preserving them.
When a little dog nips at your heels, you get fast on your feet. You might think this is a good thing, getting quick to jump away, but after a while, you just get tired. Eventually you just kick the dog and move about your business. Your coming on this board constantly complaining about government is tiring. As I mentioned before, others use this board for enjoyment, to share jokes, pictures, stories, ask questions and enjoy a discussion or two. You only use it to complain about our government and point out the things you find wrong with our country. You exhibit a one track, depressing mind. If you are so miserable with the USA, if everything is wrong here, I honestly feel you would probably be happier elsewhere. Maybe Beetle has an extra bed, he doesnt like the USA either.
dago
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Originally posted by miko2d
miko
Would you like to buy a clue?
NASA and the space program has netted more good in the conversion of military and space science technology into consumer goods.
This process is called spinoff.
Here check out this web site which details technologies invented for space and now used by every one.
http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/spinoff2003/spin03.pdf
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Originally posted by Tuomio
I dont believe that Mars could be ever terraformed, since it doesent have magnetic core like Earth has. Everything that sun sends to Mars hits the surface. There isnt anything on the Mars valuable enough to be transported to Earth. Only thing there is to do is to study its geological history, which will reveal what it looked like in the past. It would be interesting to know whether it had magnetic core previously and why it stopped, could that happen to Earth too.
[/b]
I would think something disasterous had happened at one time. Perhaps a meteor smashed into it, blocking the sun, freezing Mars in the process. Impossible to tell presently, but somehow, saying Mars had a magnetic core at some time, Mars as a whole cooled off dramatically. There is evidence it once had plate tectonics as Earth does now... the gigantic "Mars canyon" running about 1/5 the circumference of the planet. Olympus Mons and the three smaller Volcanos... possibly spewed anything molten down below and thus added to the cooling. Who knows? I'd sure like to.
Earth will be the best place to be in this solar system for humans always, there is not much reasons to send humans to other planets.
This is true. But only because humans have evolved. Take sight for example: Had the sun emitted nothing but, say, radio waves, perhaps life on earth would have developed "sight" by radio waves instead of the visible spectrum.
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Saurdaukar: Miko - WTF does any of your agenda have to do with the Mars landing?
It was not funded by voluntary contributions but by the resources coercively extracted, without regard to the preferences of the people who had to pay for it.
If anyone formed a private company with an intent of exploring and exploiting Mars, nearspace, etc., I would most likely have purchased shares - provided I approved their methods, priorities, etc.
Dago: I still have no clue how you found slave labor relevant to the Mars exploration. I am pretty sure all NASA employees are paid a salary and allowed to go home after work.
The taxes, Dago. When one pays taxes, he/she has no say in how much to pay and how it gets spent. When a 50% of products of person's labor are taken away under threat of violence, it's a form of slavery.
You might think this is a good thing, getting quick to jump away, but after a while, you just get tired. Eventually you just kick the dog and move about your business. Your coming on this board constantly complaining about government is tiring. As I mentioned before, others use this board for enjoyment, to share jokes, pictures, stories, ask questions and enjoy a discussion or two.
You may be right here. But by the same token, why do you care to read and answer my posts? Just add me to your ignore list.
I am very interested what views the education system and media instilled in people. I also know that some people get interested in my ideas and contact me for more info. Not everyone cares to publicly admit it but I would not waste my time if my posting here was completely fruitless.
miko
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Originally posted by Octavius
I would think something disasterous had happened at one time. Perhaps a meteor smashed into it, [/B]
Eh there's not "perhaps" about it... mars is pox marked with meteor impacts... as well as the mooon.
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Originally posted by Nakhui
Eh there's not "perhaps" about it... mars is pox marked with meteor impacts... as well as the mooon.
I think it would be interesting to know how often Mars gets nailed cataclysmically, and how it affects the planet's orientation to the sun.
Now that we can land a probe with some degree of accuracy, the possibility of landing a permanently-transmitting station there is interesting.
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Mars contains a new found mineral designated as Gn1a.....it's supposed use would revolutionize the tensil strength and weight components of metals now known to mankind....that is why we are on Mars.
Sheesh....don't you guys ever read.
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Originally posted by Nakhui
Eh there's not "perhaps" about it... mars is pox marked with meteor impacts... as well as the mooon.
But was it impacted before or after it had an atmosphere?
Depending on its velocity, a meteor the size of a car could make a crater the size of Rhode Island.
Earth's atmosphere slows and reduces a meteor correct? Then, without anything to slow or reduce it's size, wouldn't a larger impact crater ensue? I'm not 100% on the ballistics/kinetics/materials of Mars surface/whatever... probably not even 70% sure :) mostly speculation
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Mars can't be terraformed because it doesn't have enough mass to retain an atmosphere like Earth's.
Anything added to its current atmosphere will just drift away into space.
Still, space exploration is the only way we will find the answers to the mysteries of how and why we exist. Its also the only way to find the answers to the oddities in the universe.
Mars is a small step in the long road of space exploration, and one that is necessary. Its the only planet we can send anything to that won't get destroyed from heat or a massive atmosphere.
-SW
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Saurdaukar: Miko - WTF does any of your agenda have to do with the Mars landing?
It was not funded by voluntary contributions but by the resources coercively extracted, without regard to the preferences of the people who had to pay for it.
If anyone formed a private company with an intent of exploring and exploiting Mars, nearspace, etc., I would most likely have purchased shares - provided I approved their methods, priorities, etc.
Dago: I still have no clue how you found slave labor relevant to the Mars exploration. I am pretty sure all NASA employees are paid a salary and allowed to go home after work.
The taxes, Dago. When one pays taxes, he/she has no say in how much to pay and how it gets spent. When a 50% of products of person's labor are taken away under threat of violence, it's a form of slavery.
O M F G
On a more topic-related note, history has pretty much proven that humans are exploration-inclined, it's just something we do. None of us would be where we are today if it weren't for some very ambitious people long ago, and future generations will no doubt say the same thing. Exploring planets and deep space is only a logical progression of human existance. What we're doing on Mars right now is essential for that progression of exploration.
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Originally posted by miko2d
Saurdaukar: Miko - WTF does any of your agenda have to do with the Mars landing?
It was not funded by voluntary contributions but by the resources coercively extracted, without regard to the preferences of the people who had to pay for it.
If anyone formed a private company with an intent of exploring and exploiting Mars, nearspace, etc., I would most likely have purchased shares - provided I approved their methods, priorities, etc.
So... you want all the privileges of living in a capitalist society... but you dont want to pay for it. Ok.
Fire off a nasty letter to NASA - maybe they'll send you the 15 cents of yours that went into this program and you can put it towards your 401K (would you be against those or for them?).
There is a catch though - if you choose not to fund your share of the space program you arent allowed to use any of the products derived as a result of said program.
Thats right Mr. Man... put that Tang down...
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When one pays taxes, he/she has no say in how much to pay and how it gets spent
While we don't normally have a direct say in the spending of taxes, we have indirect control if we care to exercise it by electing or reelecting those who we feel will spend or guard the money taken in taxes. Often we can directly have our say in the form of referendum.
why do you care to read and answer my posts? Just add me to your ignore list.
1) I choose rather than ignore your attacks on my country to stand up and speak for my country, let the little sheep who frequent this board say nothing. Cowards without conviction or the courage to speak up dont impress me.
2) I like arguing.
I also know that some people get interested in my ideas and contact me for more info. Not everyone cares to publicly admit it but I would not waste my time if my posting here was completely fruitless.
Kind of sad really to think that you are only using this board to recruit for the Libertarians. Even sadder is they don't realize the ideas you post aren't really yours, but rather taken from the Libertarians.
Again, I will say this. I dont object to anyone in this country watching, challenging abuses to our righths by the governement. What pisses me off is you constant stream of attacks on the government on this board, and your failing to realize this country is a great country that will continue to thrive longer than you are drawing breath.
For a change, start an upbeat post.
dago
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we exist because of GOD
:)
we should make a thread just for taking on mako:D
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Originally posted by CyranoAH
I hope Beagle 2 says hello... even with that crappy Blur mini-song.
Daniel
so do I, but without that stupid song :)
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Titan is a moon of Saturn which has organic (using the chemical definition) seas. Europa is the icy ball moon that orbits Jupiter. Jupiter's huge gravitational field is thought to 'stir-up' the interior of the planet giving rise to an icy sea covered by a crust of ice. If there are vents like the ones on our ocean floor, on the European (not sure if that's the right word) floor, they could heat the water. Life has been found to thrive around these vents on Earth. Of course, this is untested theory.
BTW, Skuzzy I don't quite understand your definition of going off topic. If someone disagrees with the original poster, is that deemed off topic? Are you looking for a stream of 'dittos' after each starting post? I assume not. And if the original post is a pretty general statement of opinion, why is it wrong to take that subject in another direction, while still relating to it? For instance if you say you disagree with gofaster's position for reasons x, y and z and someone picks up on z, your position seems to be that the thread has been hijacked. I fail to see that. If you ever go to a debating society, you will see the discussion veer pretty wildly about the main subject. Typically, one side proposes an idea with a simple statement, and the discussion goes from there in all sorts of directions.
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Ossie: On a more topic-related note, history has pretty much proven that humans are exploration-inclined, it's just something we do.
Right - voluntarily. Saying that we need to be coerced into exploring iwould contradict your point.
None of us would be where we are today if it weren't for some very ambitious people long ago,
Who privately funded and accomplished great deeds.
Saurdaukar: So... you want all the privileges of living in a capitalist society... but you dont want to pay for it. Ok.
Quite the opposite. I want myself - and everyone else - to pay voluntarily for everything they use. There is no need for a government intervention to enable the functioning of the free market - the government intervention is disrupting free market.
I do not want "priviliges" of living in a socialist society - and neither do I want to be saddled with expenses.
There is a catch though - if you choose not to fund your share of the space program you arent allowed to use any of the products derived as a result of said program.
So far it is you who seem to promote stealing the fruits of my investments for your preferred purposes. What's more - not only my money voluntarily invested in biomedical and other research bring me dividends that are coercively confiscated, you are free to purchase the goods produced due to my savings and investement and risk-taking.
For all I care, you socialists can have Mars all to yourself. I don't pay for it, I don't use it - that's exactly my position.
As for 401K - why the heck should I demand poor people to subcidise my retirement with their taxes? When I am contributing to the max and getting a tax-free comany match and I am in the highest tax bracket, I save a lot more on taxes than an average Joe who has to cover the shortfall. 401K is the wealth transfer from the poor to the wealthy. As long as we pay taxes, we should at least use them to help disadvantages, not the privileged.
Dago: While we don't normally have a direct say in the spending of taxes, we have indirect control if we care to exercise it by electing or reelecting...
Democratic majority can confiscate property of the minority and dispose of it at will. That's nothing more than a brute force principle.
According to that principle a gang raping a woman "for her own good" is totally justified. They have good intentions and she has her chance to vote.
Kind of sad really to think that you are only using this board to recruit for the Libertarians. Even sadder is they don't realize the ideas you post aren't really yours,
As I've said several times, I am referrinmg people to the original sources at the first opportunity. It's kind of sad you fail to nderstand simple English.
And if you think that one can reproduce single-handedly the whole knowlege accumulated by humanity, you are deluded.
I never claim I came up with the theory. I am only making people aware that the knowlege does exist for them to learn -just like I did. And I apply that knowlege to explain/illustrate the events in our lives.
I do not have to invent and build a car from scratch in order to give someone a lift.
Anyway, Dago - you spend way too much time concentrating on my personality and my motives. It's your right but I do notc are to waste time on you. If you have problems with the ideas that I post here, find the flaws in my logic or premises and have a rational discussion.
miko
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AKS\/\/ulfe
mars is almost the exct same size as earth. where on earth did you get the notion it didnt have enough mass to be terraformed
BTW, Skuzzy I don't quite understand your definition of going off topic. If someone disagrees with the original poster, is that deemed off topic? Are you looking for a stream of 'dittos' after each starting post? I assume not. And if the original post is a pretty general statement of opinion, why is it wrong to take that subject in another direction, while still relating to it? For instance if you say you disagree with gofaster's position for reasons x, y and z and someone picks up on z, your position seems to be that the thread has been hijacked. I fail to see that. If you ever go to a debating society, you will see the discussion veer pretty wildly about the main subject. Typically, one side proposes an idea with a simple statement, and the discussion goes from there in all sorts of directions.
i beleive he's talking about miko and dagos argument...
Quite the opposite. I want myself - and everyone else - to pay voluntarily for everything they use. There is no need for a government intervention to enable the functioning of the free market - the government intervention is disrupting free market.
anti-trust laws...without government intervention we would all be going down to "rocker-mart" to by our "rocker-os" using our "gold" gas we got from the rockerfellers...and you do pay voluntarily for most stuff you use...unless somehow your "using" NASA for some reason...
Who privately funded and accomplished great deeds.
i could have sworn that most of the explorers had to go BEGGING to the king for enough funds for there trip...check your history dude
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Uhm, Vorticon - I'm not sure where you got your data from but straight from my Astronomy book:
Mars' diameter = 6800km
Earth's diameter = 12,800km
Venus' (Earth's "twin") diameter = 12,100km
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Uhm, Vorticon - I'm not sure where you got your data from but straight from my Astronomy book:
Mars' diameter = 6800km
Earth's diameter = 12,800km
Venus' (Earth's "twin") diameter = 12,100km
-SW
mars:
mass: 6.37x10^23 kg
radius: 3.43x10^6 m
period of rotation on: axis 8.85x10^4 s
earth
mass: 5.98x10^24 kg
radius: 6.38x10^6 m
period of rotation on axis: 8.61x10^24
your right...but it doesnt necasarrily mean mars cant handle any mor atmosphere (take a look at the great difference between venus and earths atmosphere...)
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Diameter is irrelevant to the mass, which is critical to supporting an atomosphere. Here is a comparison between Earth and Mars:
Mars Earth Ratio (Mars/Earth)
Mass (1024 kg) 0.64185 5.9736 0.107
Volume (1010 km3) 16.318 108.321 0.151
Equatorial radius 3397 6378.1 0.533
Polar radius (km) 3375 6356.8 0.531
Volumetric mean radius (km) 3390 6371.0 0.532
Core radius (km) 1700 3485 0.488
Ellipticity (Flattening) 0.00648 0.00335 1.93
Mean density (kg/m3) 3933 5515 0.713
Surface gravity (m/s2) 3.71 9.80 0.379
Surface acceleration (m/s2) 3.69 9.78 0.377
Escape velocity (km/s) 5.03 11.19 0.450
GM (x 106 km3/s2) 0.04283 0.3986 0.107
Bond albedo 0.250 0.306 0.817
Visual geometric albedo 0.150 0.367 0.409
Visual magnitude V(1,0) -1.52 -3.86 -
Solar irradiance (W/m2) 589.2 1367.6 0.431
Black-body temperature (K) 210.1 254.3 0.826
Topographic range (km) 30 20 1.500
Moment of inertia (I/MR2) 0.366 0.3308 1.106
J2 (x 10-6) 1960.45 1082.63 1.811
Number of natural satellites 2 1
Planetary ring system No No
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Diameter is irrelevant to the mass, which is critical to supporting an atomosphere. Here is a comparison between Earth and Mars:
i would think that it is (a bit anyway)...more diameter = more rock inside the planet...thus more mass...the only way a planet with a small diameter could have the same amount of mass is if the smaller planet had a denser substance make up...or if the wider planet was hollow or with less dense makeup...
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Well, Venus' atmosphere is 96% CO2 - but its still no thicker than Earth's. The amount of CO2 makes the cloud layer a lot thicker, but that doesn't mean it has more atmosphere.
However, Mercury has no atmosphere because it doesn't have enough mass for one and it's radius is 4880km.
This would seem to indicate that its a good chance that the atmosphere Mars has is all it can hold.
-SW
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Skuzzy,
Did you mean diameter is irrelevant to the density?? I thought Diameter is in direct proportion to mass...
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You're right Skuzzy, but Mars is still 1/10th the mass of Earth.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Well, Venus' atmosphere is 96% CO2 - but its still no thicker than Earth's. The amount of CO2 makes the cloud layer a lot thicker, but that doesn't mean it has more atmosphere.
However, Mercury has no atmosphere because it doesn't have enough mass for one and it's radius is 4880km.
This would seem to indicate that its a good chance that the atmosphere Mars has is all it can hold.
-SW
Perhaps it lacks the density to support the gravity to hold an atmosphere... Are we sure mass dictates atmosphere? I could be crossed...
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Mass is what creates the gravitational force for it to retain erupted gas (from volcanoes).
Cool planets (which Mars and Mercury are) do not spew elements into the sky to add to (or create) an atmosphere. At one time in the past, they did. This is why Mars has an atmosphere. Mercury does not because it is inactive and it does not have the mass to retain an atmosphere. Much like why our Moon does not have an atmosphere.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
You're right Skuzzy, but Mars is still 1/10th the mass of Earth.
-SW
wrong...1 tenth earths weight is 6.37x10^21 (or is it 22)...wich is quite a bit less than mars's weight
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Originally posted by vorticon
wrong...1 tenth earths weight is 6.37x10^21 (or is it 22)...wich is quite a bit less than mars's weight
Take it up with the Astronomers:
"Although its [Mars] diameter is only about half and its mass about one-tenth Earth's, its surface and atmosphere are less alien."
-SW
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"Although its [Mars] diameter is only about half and its mass about one-tenth Earth's, its surface and atmosphere are less alien."
what i showed you was a direct calculation from the mass of earth (wich i got from my physics teacher...)
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Well, something is wrong on your end because I have a table here showing each planet's mass in terms of Earth units.
Earth : 1.0(Earth unit) in kg 5.98x10^24
Mars : .107(Earth unit) in kg 6.42x10^23
Mercury: .055 in kg 3.3x10^23
Venus: .815 in kg 4.87x10^24
Moon: .0012 in kg 7.35x10^22
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Well, something is wrong on your end because I have a table here showing each planet's mass in terms of Earth units.
Earth : 1.0(Earth unit) in kg 5.98x10^24
Mars : .107(Earth unit) in kg 6.42x10^23
Mercury: .055 in kg 3.3x10^23
Venus: .815 in kg 4.87x10^24
Moon: .0012 in kg 7.35x10^22
-SW
exactly what i used...now grab a calculator and figure out what 1/10th of earths mass is...
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Like I said, you didn't do it right.
Its about 1/10th.
Take a calculator, and do this: (5.98x10^24)x.107
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Like I said, you didn't do it right.
Its about 1/10th.
Take a calculator, and do this: (5.98x10^24)x.107
-SW
ah...i did it wrong...never was very good at math
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It has 1/10th the mass, but its surface gravity is .379 of Earth's.
I'll have to dig up the atomic weights of the gases we need to have a breathable atmosphere, but it may be possible for Mars to have an atmosphere, but one that is not very thick.
Hydrogen is the main key as it is needed for water. Oxygen is probably heavy enough, but it can be calculated.
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vorticon: i could have sworn that most of the explorers had to go BEGGING to the king for enough funds for there trip...check your history dude
I did. There was often a huge distinction between the state and private property of the kings - and the limitarion on their taxing power over the population. Spahish kings subcidised Columbus from their private funds.
Anyway, I doubt that most exlorers were subcidised by the kings privately or from the state treasury.
There is no proof that such expenses were justified at the time. America would have been discovered withing 50 years at most at much lower expense. With a progress of shipbuilding, a trip would be so much less risky or expensive that a private merchant house would have been able to finance it.
The exploitation of America had to wait untill the technology developed anyway.
anti-trust laws...without government intervention we would all be...
As history illustrates, monopolies are not stable in a free market and those that were stable owed their powers to the government mandate.
miko
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Dang, Skuzzy iz t3h smert.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
It has 1/10th the mass, but its surface gravity is .379 of Earth's.
I'll have to dig up the atomic weights of the gases we need to have a breathable atmosphere, but it may be possible for Mars to have an atmosphere, but one that is not very thick.
Hydrogen is the main key as it is needed for water. Oxygen is probably heavy enough, but it can be calculated.
80% of Earth's atmosphere is within the first 8 miles of Earth's surface. 78% Nitrogen, 21% Oxygen, ~1% Argon and other gases.
Radius = ~ 4000 mi + 8 miles = 4008 mi = 6.45x10^6 meters.
Total Volume (earth + atm) = (4/3)pi*r^3 = 1.04235x10^19 cubic meters.
which = 1.04235x10^22 cubic decimeters (litres).
(1.04x10^22 L) / 22.4 (L/mole) = 4.64x10^20 moles
With 78% N2, 21% O2, and say 1% Ar, with atomic weights 24.02 g/mol, 32.00 g/mol, and 39.95 g/mol respectively, we can calculate the masses of each group in earth's atmosphere.
[list=1]8.70x10^21 g N2
3.12x10^21 g O2
1.85x10^20 g Ar[/list]
^ All that is Earth. I did that very quick and it isnt very accurate... now just convert it to Mars dimensions. 3387.5 km radius. Radius earth = ~6437 km. Mars is 1/10th (.107x) the mass of earth. Mass earth = 5.9742x10^24 kg. Mass Mars = 6.39x10^22.
The acceleration due to gravity at the surface of a planet varies directly as the mass and inversely as the square of the radius.
Sooo... I gotta run so I can't finish. Just throw that on Mars and see if it sticks :) lol.
Like Skuzzy said, if an atmosphere is to be created, it would be thin. But, how thin?
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We are there becuase our tax dollars are like monopoly money
to the government and NASA.
A big freekin waste if you ask me.
We have kids in our own country starving to death.
We have kids in our own country going with out a proper education.
But we always find money for this BULLCHIT
:mad:
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
It has 1/10th the mass, but its surface gravity is .379 of Earth's.
I'll have to dig up the atomic weights of the gases we need to have a breathable atmosphere, but it may be possible for Mars to have an atmosphere, but one that is not very thick.
Hydrogen is the main key as it is needed for water. Oxygen is probably heavy enough, but it can be calculated.
Nerd:D
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Originally posted by mrblack
But we always find money for this BULLCHIT
:mad:
assinine
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its cool to just gaze at the pics from mars,,and wonder how it would be to walk there some day,,,or see the highest mountain in the solar system,,,think its 100,000 foot tall or more,,,or them canons that are 300 miles deep,,that would be one long fall,,lol,,and thats cool about mars mass,,sure is a dence little rock aint it? <~~very cool info skuzzy
when your talking about a mars probe,,sure it cost alot of money<~~but if we lisined to everyone about money cost of exploration we would still think the earth was round,,,you got to explore,,its in out nature plus its fun,,would love to see titian or any of them moons,matter of fact im lookin into getting a dobsonian telescope 12.5,,300 pounds,,lol,,sure big waste of money,,,but i will enjoy it,,my own way of checking out space,,cant wait to take some pics:)
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Originally posted by Octavius
assinine
Assinine Is starving kids in America!