Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Nakhui on January 07, 2004, 12:54:47 PM
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President Bush on Wednesday will outline an immigration reform proposal that would allow workers who are in the United States illegally to come forward and join a new temporary worker program, administration officials said.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/bush.immigration/index.html
We have terrorist running amuck in this country and now he wants people who are breaking the law to work here with no worries?
No! If they are breaking the law...
Take their photograp, finger print them, apply big toe and kick their buttocks back to country of origin!
I SAY ZERO TOLERANCE!!
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Look at it from a voting aspect....;)
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its a trick.. the goverment will use the list to round them all up and place them in death camps... O.... opps... did I say death camp? I meant happy camp, where they will be granted access to the finest foods, given regular exercise programs, and experience bliss yet unknown to their illegal kind....
Its all apart of a new government... Where the government says one thing, yet does another...
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Look at it from a collect taxes point of view. They already take advantages of many of our social programs, let them contribute.
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i like the prez but I am COMPLETLY against this.
I dont know WHY this would help get the latino vote. Most of them are going to vote demo no matter what. What I really dont understand is why they would like the fact that ILLEAGLE immegrents are allowed in the country.
My wife is an immegrent and this really pisses her off. She came into this country the leagle way and has become a productive taxpaying member of society (until you really get to know her). That fact that these people get a free ride just encourages people:
1. Breaking the law is ok
2. Give it a couple of years and another pres will do the same thing to win votes
this does NOT HELP AT ALL!
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Look at it from a voting aspect....;)
And of course, that makes it ok.
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What's the point of INS to limit Green cards to 140,000 when all immigrants need to do is cross the boarder from Mexico and hey they are here...
The main reason why people want green cards is to escape economic poverty.
Ok so they live in Ameeerika... they have a job...
And now it's legal!
Voila! Who's needs win the freaking green card lottery?
No one!
Just come to Ameeerika! It's free!
Show up at schoool... IT's FREE!
Show up at the emergency room and get your STD pills - IT's FREE!
Ride the bus IT's FREE!
Who's paying for all of this?
Oh that's right they have Jobs! They're paying taxes!
so if I go to college and spend $100,000 on my education in the hope I might find an $80,000 programmering job... and Jaaruppeee sneaks into Ameerika from India and say's he'll work for only $5 an hour as a programmer...
oh well just screw me! I might as well run Ricksaws in Bangkok!
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Those immigrants perform work which no US citizen, yes, even the poor unemployed folks, want to perform.
An example is any Large lanscaping company in any US city employs as much as 80% of their workforce from this immigration pool.
It would also allow a cleaner and meaner view of illegals incoming and currently in the US by removing those who simply wanna work.
BTW...it's a temp grant...3 years.
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Those immigrants perform work which no US citizen, yes, even the poor unemployed folks, want to perform.
US citizens will perform the work at US wages. Allowing illegals to take these jobs at sub-US wages screws us all. We'd be much better off paying a little more for landscaping while having control over our borders.
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Originally posted by Rude
Those immigrants perform work which no US citizen, yes, even the poor unemployed folks, want to perform.
An example is any Large lanscaping company in any US city employs as much as 80% of their workforce from this immigration pool.
So when I mowed lawns for neighbors in my youth, I was somehow lowering myself? When I came to college and looked for a job as a pizza cook and was told, off the record, that I'll never be hired because I'm not Mexican, that's ok?
Deport their asses, every illegal you can find. Issue more green cards if you want them here. But don't reward them for getting in illegally.
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Those immigrants perform work which no US citizen, yes, even the poor unemployed folks, want to perform.
I have to agree with others that this argument is pretty much hogwash. The problem is that no US company wants to pay wages that a US citizen would demand. If a company can pay somebody a lot less, and do it under the table, then that's what will happen. It is important to note that the illegal immigrant problem is related to both supply and demand, and in the US, there is a huge demand for "cheap" labor.
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Originally posted by Rude
Those immigrants perform work which no US citizen, yes, even the poor unemployed folks, want to perform.
An example is any Large lanscaping company in any US city employs as much as 80% of their workforce from this immigration pool.
It would also allow a cleaner and meaner view of illegals incoming and currently in the US by removing those who simply wanna work.
BTW...it's a temp grant...3 years.
Landscaping is a damn good job. I've done it.
However, I'm not willing to work for $3.95 an hour with no medical or vacation benefits.
It's not be because I don't want to do the work...
It's because that wage is below the standard of living I deem acceptable in the US OF A!
Companies want cheap labor - I'm a business man... I understand why... it's business. But in this case - it's greed, it's illegal, and it's imorral.
This is one job that can't be exported over seas in order to exploit people's labor.
so... they hire illegal immigrants... they don't give them health benifits and they don't pay them a living wage!
You can't spin this into something good.
It's bad for everyone... Americans and Immigrants... it keeps immigrant as poor working slaves. and it allows people who are breaking the law to profit.
Mr Family Values Bush... what's he thinking?
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Compassionate Conservatism!
I fart in his general direction.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Look at it from a voting aspect....;)
I don't think it will work...
One of the provisions for working here legaly is that they have to regester for a green card. If that card isn't issued within the three year period that they can work legaly then they have to return to their native country and reapply.
The hispanic workers that I'm in daily contact with, all legal workers, say that their distrust in the government will keep more than some of the illegals from trying to get legal status since they will be required to give their personal info such as home address, phone number and number of dependants etc. sometimes years before the hope of a green card would be within their grasp.
BTW, the freepers are simmering over this...some have stated they will withold their vote this year....we'll see.
This is nothing more than pandering to a group of voters that traditionaly vote for the Dems. Nothing wrong with that, IMO, but pissing off their voter base is a bit assinine...IMO...and good for the opposition...so I'm kinda for it in a sick kind of way :)
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MrLars,
whatsa freeper??
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Originally posted by kappa
MrLars,
whatsa freeper??
Heard of the 'Democratic Underground'?
Most posters are extreem left leaning but there are some level headed ones.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/
Rush has been using selected quotes from this group to further his diatribe...typical of him to use this tactic in his spew.
Free Republic...members known as Freepers are the other side of the coin...wackos on both sides IMO but the FR's are a bit more militant IMO.
Almost all posters are extreemly radical right leaners.
http://www.freerepublic.com/
A bit of warning before going to these boards...the moderators make Skuzzy and LePaul look seem like romper room monitors :)
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Originally posted by MrLars
Heard of the 'Democratic Underground?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/
Rush has been using selected quotes from this group to further his diatribe...typical of him to use this tactic in his spew.
Free Republic...members known as Freepers are the other side of the coin...wackos on both sides IMO but the FR's are a bit more militant IMO.
http://www.freerepublic.com/
excuse my ignorance.. thanks dude 8)
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:::Heuy thumpthumpthump heard past the hills:::
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
:::Heuy thumpthumpthump heard past the hills:::
That was a most welcome sound way back when...
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I like the measure, though I'd take it a step further. The 3 year visa with a criminal record review at the end.. then a 7 year visa with the possibility of citizenship after antother criminal record review. Any class whatever misdimeanors or higher and there will be no renewal of the visa... just exportation.
It's how the country was built. It's how the country has grown. It's what America was based on. This is the American way of life.
MiniD
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Woot! If we continue to smoke marijuana, they will end the drug war.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Woot! If we continue to smoke marijuana, they will end the drug war.
Rofl. Seems to be the message the administration is sending.
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Originally posted by Mini D
I like the measure, though I'd take it a step further. The 3 year visa with a criminal record review at the end.. then a 7 year visa with the possibility of citizenship after antother criminal record review. Any class whatever misdimeanors or higher and there will be no renewal of the visa... just exportation.
It's how the country was built. It's how the country has grown. It's what America was based on. This is the American way of life.
MiniD
BS. America was built on legal immigration, of which we still have plenty. Telling illegal immigrants that it's OK to stay is a new idea. Those who go through the trouble of playing by the rules get a big slap in the face. If you sneak over a fence from Mexico you are free to treat the US as your own country, but if you fly in from Europe carrying a passport you are put through all kinds of paperwork and monitoring.
ra
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Originally posted by ra
BS. America was built on legal immigration, of which we still have plenty. Telling illegal immigrants that it's OK to stay is a new idea. Those who go through the trouble of playing by the rules get a big slap in the face. If you sneak over a fence from Mexico you are free to treat the US as your own country, but if you fly in from Europe carrying a passport you are put through all kinds of paperwork and monitoring.
ra
Exactly. A squaddie of mine is going through this right now. He's a European student studying here. Without getting into the bureacratic BS, basically, his visa ran out. He's not finished with his degree yet -- I believe he's a year away. He's going home, and hoping that he hears from the government to get permission to come back and finish his studies. At best, he'll be back next fall, after missing two semesters.
Now, GWB sends the message that all he has to do is sneak in, and everything's fine. BS.
You want in? Get in legally. Do we need more low-wage folks here? Maybe. If we do, issue more green cards. Don't look the other way and tell them it's ok to sneak in while other, law abiding people sit across an ocean wishing they could be so fortunate.
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America was built on legal migration? Wow. I believe U.S. migration laws were quite a bit down the line. What this ammounts to is "we're here... and we need to keep it for ourselves".
Sorry, but that's the nationalistic america some want... hell... maybe even most. But don't pretend for a second it's anything other than greed and hatred that underlies those beliefs.
The status quo is to pretend the illegal immigrants aren't here unless you want to make a statement about something. This bill is about giving people jobs that they already have "under the table". The real argument is whether or not to keep "them" there .
Personally, I'd think the influx of immigrants willing to work will cause many citizens that aren't willing to work to wake up from their afternoon naps.
MiniD
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I won't even touch that.
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This is only about 1 thing.
CHEAP LABOR for BUSINESS
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Look at it from a voting aspect....;)
They won't be allowed to vote. Next!
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America was built on legal migration? Wow. I believe U.S. migration laws were quite a bit down the line. What this ammounts to is "we're here... and we need to keep it for ourselves".
Sorry, but that's the nationalistic america some want... hell... maybe even most. But don't pretend for a second it's anything other than greed and hatred that underlies those beliefs.
I'll touch it. Don't pretend for a second that this proposal is anything other than greed motivated. The advantages for businesses = immense. The actual advantage for laborers, both legal and illegal mind you, are far from practical, and in some cases non-existant.
How can hatred be such an underlying motive if the very people that are supposed to benefit are themselves at risk of being screwed? It's a bad situation for everybody except those who are already employing illegal immigrants...illegally I might add.
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personally i dont like bush and this is one of the few times i would ever say something bad about him in public, but this is just plain stupid.
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Those immigrants perform work which no US citizen, yes, even the poor unemployed folks, want to perform.
An example is any Large lanscaping company in any US city employs as much as 80% of their workforce from this immigration pool.
It would also allow a cleaner and meaner view of illegals incoming and currently in the US by removing those who simply wanna work.
pure crap, if they can't do bussiness without breaking the law they shouldn't be in bussiness.
if you can't find anyone legal to do the work, raise your pay scale to make the job more atractive. my job is much worse than landscaping (physical intensity, danger, exposure to elements and chemicals), but they pay enough to make it worth it.
you pay me $30 an hour and a $20 benifit package to mow lawns and I'd be the first to apply.
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Originally posted by Ossie
I'll touch it. Don't pretend for a second that this proposal is anything other than greed motivated. The advantages for businesses = immense. The actual advantage for laborers, both legal and illegal mind you, are far from practical, and in some cases non-existant.
greed motivated? Ya. That's it, AND it will bost votes with the hispanic community to boot. Stop applying typical anti-republican euphimism to everything... it get's old very quickly.How can hatred be such an underlying motive if the very people that are supposed to benefit are themselves at risk of being screwed? It's a bad situation for everybody except those who are already employing illegal immigrants...illegally I might add.
How are they at risk of being screwed? Oh.. wait... if they sign of up for the program they can work, but they might be deported after 3 years. If they don't... they can continue to work and live here indefinately, but not really be a part of the country. Yeppers... that's great. The "let's just pretend they're not here" solution. It's great to condone a tier system in the U.S.
This is the first attempt at anything I've seen in regards to dealing with illegal immigrants that's actually made sense. Not a round them up and ship them out solution... not a "let's just give them everything" solution either. If they work here, they can stay and actually be a part of it. That would be the ideal... that would be exactly how this country was built.
MiniD
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Sweet Jebus DJ, stop using intelligence against these obvious scholars!
-SW
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Originally posted by Nakhui
Landscaping is a damn good job. I've done it.
However, I'm not willing to work for $3.95 an hour with no medical or vacation benefits.
It's not be because I don't want to do the work...
It's because that wage is below the standard of living I deem acceptable in the US OF A!
Companies want cheap labor - I'm a business man... I understand why... it's business. But in this case - it's greed, it's illegal, and it's imorral.
This is one job that can't be exported over seas in order to exploit people's labor.
so... they hire illegal immigrants... they don't give them health benifits and they don't pay them a living wage!
You can't spin this into something good.
It's bad for everyone... Americans and Immigrants... it keeps immigrant as poor working slaves. and it allows people who are breaking the law to profit.
Mr Family Values Bush... what's he thinking?
What about this, right now illegal immigrants are working for less than minimum wages in most situations, and if they are working for more than minimum wage, that is a job an american could take but they didn't. By making it legal to work in the U.S. even if your illegal, they make it so they have to follow labor laws when employing these workers. That means its just as attractive to hire regular citizens in place of the illegals, or they can hire illegals who don't report to the government.
As it stands, the jobs illegals are being paid more than minimum wage for, earn that money. Legal American's could have or did compete for that position at the same pay, and either did not work hard enough, or felt it was beneath them to hold the position. Nothing will change in this situation, except now taxes will be expected from the now legal workers, which increases government cash flow.
If illegal workers are making more than minimum wage, if they wish to work for the employer, they cannot do so in a legal situation, or else the employer must pay them minimum wage. The employer can either raise their pay, thus opening jobs up for American's to compete for, or they can hire illegals that do not try and become legal workers. Thus its a circle, and in reality this bill accomplishes nothing but getting more of the money that should be paid in taxes back in government hands, and increase GWB's popularity with the Hispanic voters.
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Hello my name geez whaanita can i take jur order pleaze.
I have always thought the mexican border should have been filled with landminds a long time ago.
With Snipers in towers to get the ones that make it through the mine field.
But thats just me.
I never have liked open boarders and I think The INS will be our downfall.
Don't believe me ?
Most if not all of the 9-11 hi-jackers where in this country legally.
I say come for a visit then get the butter out have a nice day:D
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5|\|1p3r5! Animal, you are on call.
-SW
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Originally posted by mrblack
Hello my name geez whaanita can i take jur order pleaze.
I have always thought the mexican border should have been filled with landminds a long time ago.
With Snipers in towers to get the ones that make it through the mine field.
But thats just me.
Didn't you not so long ago claim that REAL snipers don't shoot at civillians?
So any man, woman, and child is open game if they happen to pass through your imaginary minefield?
Most illegal immigrants don't come to the US to settle for substandard wages because it's easy.
Maybe they come here because there is just so much more economic hardship where they come from.
They don't come here because they think it a hobby. They come out of necessity.
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Maybe they come here because there is just so much more economic hardship where they come from.
They don't come here because they think it a hobby. They come out of necessity.
and things are better here because wrokers can generally get a decent wage. this provides customers and drives our economy. when people come here illegally, and take jobs that pay illegal wages, it undermines our whole system, lowering wages and giving us the wonderfull economy of their homeland. companies who hire illegals have an unfair advantage over those who hire americans (including imigrants, and foriegners who are here legally). basicly we reward bad companies for bringing this security threat into our borders.
it may not be an armed invasion but it is an invassion none the less and a real threat to our country.
if they want to work apply for a work visa and get a real job for legal wages and pay taxes just like everyone else here. having a whole sub-culture of people who are undocumented foriegners running around in our country isn't exactly good security either.
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Originally posted by Mini D
America was built on legal migration? Wow. I believe U.S. migration laws were quite a bit down the line. What this ammounts to is "we're here... and we need to keep it for ourselves".
Yes even from the very beginning immigration to America was based upon some aspect of legality...
The English colonies existed by charter from their respective Kings and Queens.
History lesson aside...
There are two violators of the law in this case, the illegal immigrant... and the employer who gives him work.
Personally, I think the immigrant should be deported and the employer thrown in jail.
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Originally posted by Munkii
Thus its a circle, and in reality this bill accomplishes nothing but getting more of the money that should be paid in taxes back in government hands, and increase GWB's popularity with the Hispanic voters.
Bush is pandering to the hispanics.. agreed.
However changing the laws because people break the law is not the way to go..
That's like... saying well everyone is driving 80 mph past the school zone... so we might as well raise the speed limit so they can do it legally.
No... the speed limit saves lives.
There are reasons for immigration laws, labor laws, and why it's illegal to hire illegal immigrants.
If illegal immigrants couldn't get jobs in the USA - they wouldn't come here.
The real criminals are the employers who take advantage of them and violate the law.
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Yeah... I know what you think personally.
Really... you should take a peak at the statue of liberty some day. Read what it says. Then reconsider the totallitarian society you are suggesting.
MiniD
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This is reality boys.....
I've been an employer for 25 years....I can barely find people to hire that will show up on time much less do the work once on the job.
This story about cheap labor is a lie....the fact is, the mexicans are paid the same rate of pay that Americans are....we're not talking about highly skilled positions here....average pay for landscapers nationally....10.00/hr.
These immigrants show up on time and work hard for 8-10 hours a day...every day. The American worker has become lazy and is all about what will you do for me today....that's reality....you guys want to kid yourselves and think it's some super duper right wing political ploy, go ahead.
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Originally posted by Rude
This story about cheap labor is a lie....the fact is, the mexicans are paid the same rate of pay that Americans are....we're not talking about highly skilled positions here....average pay for landscapers nationally....10.00/hr.
I agree wholeheartedly Rude, I ran a painting contracting business with my father. We had 3 white guys, the three owners. We had 7 when we started, but the 4 that weren't bosses, just wouldn't show up. Two guys from Honduras asked us for work, we tried them out for one day, they blew everyone away. We got more work out of them for longer, than 4 other guys. They instantly got a pay raise from 10.00 to 12.00 an hour and the other 4 just stopped showing up.
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Originally posted by Munkii
I agree wholeheartedly Rude, I ran a painting contracting business with my father. We had 3 white guys, the three owners. We had 7 when we started, but the 4 that weren't bosses, just wouldn't show up. Two guys from Honduras asked us for work, we tried them out for one day, they blew everyone away. We got more work out of them for longer, than 4 other guys. They instantly got a pay raise from 10.00 to 12.00 an hour and the other 4 just stopped showing up.
Then let's just not have any green cards... open the bordres and let them run in and paint our houses, clean our toilets, and mow our lawns.
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Originally posted by Nakhui
Then let's just not have any green cards... open the bordres and let them run in and paint our houses, clean our toilets, and mow our lawns.
Which is what we have now anyways. Thinking about it, the other reason for this bill is to protect businesses that have illegal workers. If they become legal all of a sudden, bam, no more illegal employee's. Therefore, Wal-Mart wouldn't have gotten in a big stink over illegal's. Uh oh, tin foil hat time. Big Business Bush signed into an act making it legal to work illegals in a round about way after a huge Wal-Mart raid, the biggest of the big businesses.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Didn't you not so long ago claim that REAL snipers don't shoot at civillians?
So any man, woman, and child is open game if they happen to pass through your imaginary minefield?
Most illegal immigrants don't come to the US to settle for substandard wages because it's easy.
Maybe they come here because there is just so much more economic hardship where they come from.
They don't come here because they think it a hobby. They come out of necessity.
BULLCHIT THEY COME HERE BECUASE THERE TOO LAZY TO FIGHT THERE OWN GOVERNMENT FOR REFORME.
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Originally posted by mrblack
BULLCHIT THEY COME HERE BECUASE THERE TOO LAZY TO FIGHT THERE OWN GOVERNMENT FOR REFORME.
DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!
As an example those who stay in Poland, Russia, (all the warsaw pack), China, etc and continue to strive for free market and legal reform... are changing their countries for the better and their countries are becoming players in the global market.
Those who left, to flee plitical and economic situations... well they did it to enrich them selves.
We should kick all these hard workers back to Mexico... so that Mexico can have clean toilets, nice lawns, and painted houses!
The reform should not be our laws... it should be the country the illegals are fleeing from!
This way we rich white Americans can go down there buy up their land... and make them pay rent... and not be concerned that their Mafia and corrupt government will steal our assests...
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The American worker has become lazy and is all about what will you do for me today....that's reality....
actually the reality is the $10 per hour american worker may have become lazy. the fact is that $10, while not minimum wage isn't enough to raise a family on in america. it is however enough to raise a family on in mexico. look at what the mexican can get for his money when he goes home (with his wages that are now taken out of the american economy).
you provide americans with a wage that will give them the same buying power here that the mexican workers have when they take the money home, and you will find that dependable, hard working americans will show up for the job.
american workers are not inherantly lazy, it's just the ones that apply for a $10 an hour job. since it's not enough to make a career of you get people from one of 2 groups, either those who are to stupid, lazy or unreliable to have a better option, or those who don't really care because they know they are 'just passing through' this job, settling until a job with a future opens up.
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I supported my family of 6 while making 11.00/hr....your mistaken. The difference is this....we went without the luxuries we used to be accustomed to. We had a roof over our heads, wheels under our butts and food in the fridge.
Life is not about a 6 figure income and material posession....I now have that 6 figure income back....fancy car, nice home and all the crap you seem to think everyone is entitled to.
Folks that work hard earn what they get....folks that don't want to work, for 10/hr or 300/hr, get nothing....if you don't want to work then you don't eat....it's not free or an entitlement.
I have respect for those who come to our country and take advantage of the opportunity by working hard....look at any ethnic group new to our country...they all appreciate the freedom and the opportunity to succeed.
Americans are lazy and spoiled....it's getting worse each year.
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Originally posted by Rude
Americans are lazy and spoiled....it's getting worse each year.
Hate to say it but i agree with you.
But then again we have earned it:aok
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Didn't you not so long ago claim that REAL snipers don't shoot at civillians?
So any man, woman, and child is open game if they happen to pass through your imaginary minefield?
Most illegal immigrants don't come to the US to settle for substandard wages because it's easy.
Maybe they come here because there is just so much more economic hardship where they come from.
They don't come here because they think it a hobby. They come out of necessity.
If they are crossing an armed border than yes they should be shot LOL.
NO women or children should ever be targeted EVER.
they come here cuase they are by nature a peacefull people.
And making war with there Government for social change is way over there heads.
The whole class structure in Mexico is wacked!!
Rich and poor no middle class.
There lies your problem.
Mexico needs a civil war hell I bet we would even sell them arms LOL:aok
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Most Mexican's can probally type and spell better than you. :rofl
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Originally posted by Regular
Most Mexican's can probally type and spell better than you. :rofl
Just got moved into a brand new 4.480 sq ft house.
I think my education has served me fine LOL TARD:rolleyes:
OH and thats probably
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Originally posted by Silat
This is only about 1 thing.
CHEAP LABOR for BUSINESS
Yup. Now the California sawmills are staffed by migrant workers willing to work for below minimum wage because they're classified as "agriculture" and "seasonal."
Total BS- a California sawmill cutting Canadian logs floated down on Taiwanese registered freighters cut by Mexican workers.
If we can't make our jobs go South then we can surely bring the South to our jobs.
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Originally posted by mrblack
BULLCHIT THEY COME HERE BECUASE THERE TOO LAZY TO FIGHT THERE OWN GOVERNMENT FOR REFORME.
Maybe they're more scared to fight. Lazy, they're not.
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It is the American consumer that drives business policy. They usually go for the inexpensive product.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Maybe they're more scared to fight. Lazy, they're not.
Good point I stand corrected sir.
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One thing outlawing and punishing employers has done to the illegal market is to set up middle men between the employer and the illegal work and it has actually pushed down wages...
Illegal immigrants are getting paidless so that Big Corp has a legal buffer. Example WalMart.
Bush's proposal will allow the illegal worker to be hired directly and therefor eliminate the % the middleman takes from the paycheck.