Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: kappa on January 07, 2004, 01:14:50 PM
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would have to be proof of life on other planets... or life in other areas of the universe...
Perhaps then, man, realizing he is not alone in the universe, would toss aside religious books and realize they were not written by gods, but by his fellow man and thus not w/out sin...
yes, imagine a world with no religion... its easy if you try... :p
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Originally posted by kappa
would have to be proof of life on other planets... or life in other areas of the universe...
Perhaps then, man, realizing he is not alone in the universe, would toss aside religious books and realize they were not written by gods, but by his fellow man and thus not w/out sin...
yes, imagine a world with no religion... its easy if you try... :p
I can't see how the discovery of life on other planets would rule out religion.
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Cool. Well, Gofaster's thread went down the crapper in a hurry, so I'll move what I said over here. I quoted Nakhui first:
Originally posted by Nakhui
It's a scientific question.... and to some point a philisophical question - as old as man's ability to think.
Is there life "out there"
Are we all that there is?
Why is water so important?
Because every where on earther there is water - there is life. In the hotest springs, in the most arrid deserts... in the frigid barren cold... there is life.
Where is water most likely to exist on Mars?
Well water flows down hill... so at the bottom of a crater... a crater that has evidence of a dried up river flowing out of it.
That's where spirit landed.
Dig into the setiment... and if life lived there... fossil remains of life will be there too.
These are exciting times for sure...
Imagine what it was like to live in the 1500 hundreds.. finding out that the earth is not flat... and there are distant continents to explore with plant life never seen before... people and cultures to learn about...
What if buried under layers of Martian dust are ruins of an ancient civilization...
What if there really is life "out there" and they deliver take out Chinese.. and it's really good!
And I replied:
Exactly. A scientific AND philosophical way.
Of ALL the possible locations (billions and billions of galaxies and star systems) to search for life, if we find the existence of life SO close... our next door neighbor, the first place we look... and are successfull, then there exists life everywhere in the known universe(s).
Thats a pretty damn powerfull find IMO.
Side benefits would ensue. Talk of terraforming Mars in the future. Of course, not until it's sufficiently explored and analyzed (waaay down the line). Future area for humans to live and develop?
Just as the world was "illuminated" when Copernicus discovered that the earth wasn't the center of the solar system/universe, but that planets orbited the Sun, if we find life on Mars, (again the first place we look), then again, I think the world (all of humanity) will be enlightened/illuminated. Heh, no I'm not speaking of the secret organization.
AND before this thread goes down the drain:
Yes, there would be some conflicting information (Genesis: "And god created the earth." - and other stuff the Bible does not cover (extraterrestrial life - besides 'angels'). Christianity, so conveniently loose and open to reinterpretation, would adapt itself (by a human's decree) to the new information.
"What God really means is that he made 100 million year old dinos in the ground and purposely created "life" on other planets... as a test of our faith... in the imaginary."
or, not being able to defend themselves: "You have no proof! Science is flawed! Get better instruments! Waah!"
I think that might actually help in the destruction of this thread, oops.
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Curiosity Feedback. The more we know the more we want to know.
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The discovery of life on other plants would surely be profound - but would not end our dependance on religion.
Im sure we've all argued with our local Baptist. There is life on Mars because God put it there, Im sure. If it doesnt say that in the Bible, then we were meant to find out for ourselves.
Lets send missionaries.
Or something along those lines... ;)
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Screw that Saur.
Worst case scenerio is we DO find life on Mars... fundamentalist fanatics could potential a threat to space exploration.
Have you seen "contact" ? Yep, it's hollyweird, but it certainly could happen.
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"yes, imagine a world with no negroes or homosexuals.. its easy if you try... "
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Lets send missionaries.
Or something along those lines... ;)
lol no doubt!
no religion was a bold statement... stopping the segregation of religion would be better... if the world could stop and think, hey, we all had it wrong.. perhaps then a new thought of the fundamentals of each religion would arise... that kindness, civility, and general decency would be in order over any established religious faction..
So, maybe no religion was too much.. how about a new religion because present religion needs an enema...
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"Perhaps then, man, realizing he is not alone in the universe, would toss aside religious books and realize they were not written by gods, but by his fellow man and thus not w/out sin... "
If these probes find no sign of life does that mean that there was never life on Mars? No.
Scientists are hoping to prove the theory that "life is easy", ie where there's liquid water there will probably be life. Whether signs of life are found or not, no philosophical arguments will be settled.
ra
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Originally posted by ra
If these probes find no sign of life does that mean that there was never life on Mars? No.
agreed
Scientists are hoping to prove the theory that "life is easy", ie where there's liquid water there will probably be life. Whether signs of life are found or not, no philosophical arguments will be settled.
ra
Settled, no... but questioned?? hopefully......
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Originally posted by kappa
lol no doubt!
no religion was a bold statement... stopping the segregation of religion would be better... if the world could stop and think, hey, we all had it wrong.. perhaps then a new thought of the fundamentals of each religion would arise... that kindness, civility, and general decency would be in order over any established religious faction..
So, maybe no religion was too much.. how about a new religion because present religion needs an enema...
Bold? Ignorant is more what I was thinking. There are very many religious people that believe there is life on other planets. I have nothing other than personal experience to back this up but I'd bet most religious people believe there is life on other planets.
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Originally posted by kappa
would have to be proof of life on other planets... or life in other areas of the universe...
Perhaps then, man, realizing he is not alone in the universe, would toss aside religious books and realize they were not written by gods, but by his fellow man and thus not w/out sin...
yes, imagine a world with no religion... its easy if you try... :p
Nah! the Real reason is to find new markets places to peddle our wares!
New life forms to get addicted to Pepsi, BigMacs, snickers bars, beer, and Pro Sports Gambling!!!
That's the real reason for Iraq and Afghanistan... and for keeping
China on the most favored trading nation status... well after
they've been documented and proven to be human rights violators
TRADE ROUTES BABY!
MARCO POLO!!!
Trans-Eurasian SILK ROUTE!
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Originally posted by AKIron
Bold? Ignorant is more what I was thinking. There are very many religious people that believe there is life on other planets. I have nothing other than personal experience to back this up but I'd bet most religious people believe there is life on other planets.
very ignorant post indeed iron... Im not talking about people.. im talking about religion and its effect on people... more exactly, the segregation of religion...
but thanks for the ignorant statment... ill just consider you stupid and unable to read ... much like you asking miko if hes accuseing skuzzy of supporting slavery...
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Originally posted by Nakhui
Nah! the Real reason is to find new markets places to peddle our wares!
New life forms to get addicted to Pepsi, BigMacs, snickers bars, beer, and Pro Sports Gambling!!!
lmao!
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The best possible outcome would be the discovery of an early form of life, probably anaerobic simple-celled organism living beneath the surface. The find would be staggering to the scientific community. It would prove that there is life on other planets, that we are not alone.
And that we better get cracking on those warp drive engines before the Klingons come a-calling!
(http://www.etoys.com/g/toys/big/116898d.jpg)
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Originally posted by kappa
would have to be proof of life on other planets... or life in other areas of the universe...
Perhaps then, man, realizing he is not alone in the universe, would toss aside religious books and realize they were not written by gods, but by his fellow man and thus not w/out sin...
yes, imagine a world with no religion... its easy if you try... :p
very ignorant post indeed iron... Im not talking about people.. im talking about religion and its effect on people... more exactly, the segregation of religion...
but thanks for the ignorant statment... ill just consider you stupid and unable to read ... much like you asking miko if hes accuseing skuzzy of supporting slavery...
You calling me stupid for pointing out your ignorance? I don't get it?
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Damn klingons!!! its a bird of prey!!!
Raise shields!!
but captain, we dont have sheilds yet.!!
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Originally posted by AKIron
You calling me stupid for pointing out your ignorance? I don't get it?
lol iron.. stop humping my leg...
nowhere in my post is written people, person, or individual... read with whatever eyes you wish...
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Stop making ridiculous statements kappa and I'll leave ya alone.
To paraphrase, you said the best outcome from space exploration would be the discovery of life on other planets. This would be good because man would realize he is not alone. You then make a very illogical leap that this discovery would somehow cause man to realize that his religious books were not from gods.
I'm inferring from that, that you mean man would then realize there is no God. I simply told you that many people that now believe in God also already believe in life on other planets even without proof. Therefore, your assumption is based on ignorance.
Then you get personal and call me stupid. Who's doing the humping here?
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Originally posted by AKIron
Stop making ridiculous statements kappa and I'll leave ya alone.
To paraphrase, you said the best outcome from space exploration would be the discovery of life on other planets. This would be good because man would realize he is not alone. You then make a very illogical leap that this discovery would somehow cause man to realize that his religious books were not from gods.
I'm inferring from that, that you mean man would then realize there is no God. I simply told you that many people that now believe in God also already believe in life on other planets even without proof. Therefore, your assumption is based on ignorance.
Then you get personal and call me stupid. Who's doing the humping here?
ok Iron.. last post to you.. even after writting all that.. even after I clarify my position to you... even after... you still come with this, this absurdity... did you forget this part of my post you quoted??
So, maybe no religion was too much.. how about a new religion because present religion needs an enema...
does that part of my post in itself make you rethink what you typed?? Admittedly Im not a good writter, but I generaly feel i get my point across.. I just really dont know how you read into things like you do, sometimes.... 'no god' was never on my mind while writing any of this, almost joking, statments... nowhere did i mention people, persons, individuals, no gods, non-ET believeing people, or non-green men believers.. but clearly since I chimmed in w/ non-sense that you didnt write im humping your leg.... thanks for helping me realize.. :aok
And Iron.. you could have ask rather than call me ignorant.. might have gotten a better response.. :cool:
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Kappa, you always like it when I hump your leg though... :D
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Maybe you could explain how discovering life outside of our planet would "give religion an enema".
It seems to me that you think we're gonna meet some advanced race that's going to disprove all of our religious notions. Why you should think this is beyond me.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Maybe you could explain how discovering life outside of our planet would "give religion an enema".
It seems to me that you think we're gonna meet some advanced race that's going to disprove all of our religious notions. Why you should think this is beyond me.
I wouldn't say that exactly. Finding life elsewhere would change things regardless of what it might be. They could disprove some, but not all (sumbunal), religious notions.
As to kappa's religious enema statement, I think it'd be great. If the world's religions were a huge HD, a defrag surely wouldn't hurt. However, voluntarily doing so would require an extraordinary amount of energy. I mean, without going to any relative extremes, who wouldn't want to see sumbunal religious factions, fundamentalists, seperatists, whateverists, on the same page? Some sort of common understanding, although difficult for some to comprehend, is not impossible... the benefits of which probably lie in some sci-fi book.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Maybe you could explain how discovering life outside of our planet would "give religion an enema".
It seems to me that you think we're gonna meet some advanced race that's going to disprove all of our religious notions. Why you should think this is beyond me.
no worries.. thanks for being polite.. 8)
I dont mean to sound like we have to meet an advanced race.. Single celled organisms would be fine.. Any life or evidence thereof...
God made man and loved man above all others... How could this be true?
According to the bible there was adam and eve and the garden of eden... all life originates from there...
How could baptist/methodist or catholic/protestant veiw each others religion to be so false after realizing they themselfs didnt have it all right??
All life does not originate from mother earth our god's creation... therby given great testiment to the theroy or evolution.. Darwin's Origin of Species....
Just a few ways Iron.. Im sure I could ponder many more.. Not unlike, and possibly not without cause, the fear the religious community feels about humans genetically enginerring babies.. Any thing that forces people to question their wisdom, in my opinion, is a good thing.......
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I'll agree kappa that there are some religious folks that believe we are the center of the universe in God's eye and the most important beings in the Universe. I consider them to be, well, ignorant. Discovering life outside our planet may well rattle their beliefs. I don't think they are a majority.
My personal belief is that God created everything including time and space and that it is full of life and beyond our imagining.
Now, regarding engineering humans. Bad idea, at least until we understand a great deal more than we currently do.
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Wholey poop, Skuzzy was right.
HTF do you go from impact on religion if life is found to leg humping?
What do I think the greatest outcome from space exploration has been?
Tang.
Yessindeedysir.
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best outcome from space exploration:
Unite mankind in a common goal.
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Originally posted by AKIron
My personal belief is that God created everything including time and space and that it is full of life and beyond our imagining.
As is mine.. I'm almost positive..
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It's all about oil.
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Originally posted by Maniac
Unite mankind in a common goal.
Best post yet.
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The only way the discovery of intelligent life would unite men is to achieve the goal of DESTROYING THEM.
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Well obviously... WTF is the point of exploring the reaches of the galaxy if you cant find a civilization to attack... where have you been?
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LOL, ever since cinema was invented we have had many xenophobic movies of alien invasion.
I think if we mastered space travel, its the other races who have something to fear.
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Originally posted by Animal
The only way the discovery of intelligent life would unite men is to achieve the goal of DESTROYING THEM.
I think he meant that uniting mankind would be the best outcome of space exploration, not necessarily discovering life.
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Originally posted by AKIron
[BMy personal belief is that God created everything including time and space and that it is full of life and beyond our imagining. [/B]
It is amazing to see how the human being needs to believe in the concept of creation when the only concept we can "touch", "feel" and measure is transformation.
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Originally posted by GODO
It is amazing to see how the human being needs to believe in the concept of creation when the only concept we can "touch", "feel" and measure is transformation.
We all understand the concept of beginning and end. It is something all of us experience firsthand. It really isn't that amazing to me that so many of us "feel" there must have been a beginning to our universe.
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Originally posted by kappa
no worries.. thanks for being polite.. 8)
I dont mean to sound like we have to meet an advanced race.. Single celled organisms would be fine.. Any life or evidence thereof...
God made man and loved man above all others... How could this be true?
According to the bible there was adam and eve and the garden of eden... all life originates from there...
How could baptist/methodist or catholic/protestant veiw each others religion to be so false after realizing they themselfs didnt have it all right??
All life does not originate from mother earth our god's creation... therby given great testiment to the theroy or evolution.. Darwin's Origin of Species....
Just a few ways Iron.. Im sure I could ponder many more.. Not unlike, and possibly not without cause, the fear the religious community feels about humans genetically enginerring babies.. Any thing that forces people to question their wisdom, in my opinion, is a good thing.......
1. man...as far as were concerned "man" may be any sentient race ever created...the beleif wont die...it will just change
2. garden of eden...while the garden is assumed to be on earth...it may be somewhere in deepspace and god after creating man saw that he could do better and set about creating a new species of sentient life...but simply forgot to remove the arrogant view of "gods only" before setting about on the new task...not to say that he doesnt prize us equally...once again it changes but not falters
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Originally posted by GODO
It is amazing to see how the human being needs to believe in the concept of creation when the only concept we can "touch", "feel" and measure is transformation.
Transformation? what do you mean humans can touch and feel transformation? That's funny. :)
And, BTW, if there was no creation, how could anything exist? If something exists, wasn't it created? The "concept" of creation...lol
I ask you: how do you believe all the matter in the universe came to be? Was is created? Was it always here? If it was always here, what law of science can explain how all the matter just simply always existed? If all the matter was created, what law of science can explain how all the matter was created from nothing?
My conclusion: It's just as credible to believe that God created everything as it is to believe any other concept..but hey, I'm just moron.
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Originally posted by Martlet
I can't see how the discovery of life on other planets would rule out religion.
let me find my bible and the quote from it. I went to catcholic school for 9 years this is my first year in public school. the bible says that we are the only living things in the universe. so if we found life we would render the bible useless is basicly what akppa meant to say.
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
let me find my bible and the quote from it. I went to catcholic school for 9 years this is my first year in public school. the bible says that we are the only living things in the universe. so if we found life we would render the bible useless is basicly what akppa meant to say.
Perhaps literally, but my point above was that if you ever argued with a devote relgious man, its a circle jerk.
Show him the passage that states we are the only life in the universe after we find it in our own star system and he will state that we were purposely mislead in the Bible for X reason.
You cannot convince a religious man that his devotion is misplaced because faith cannot be disproven - it only comes out as a different, and in his eyes, incorrect opinion.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Perhaps literally, but my point above was that if you ever argued with a devote relgious man, its a circle jerk.
Show him the passage that states we are the only life in the universe after we find it in our own star system and he will state that we were purposely mislead in the Bible for X reason.
You cannot convince a religious man that his devotion is misplaced because faith cannot be disproven - it only comes out as a different, and in his eyes, incorrect opinion.
Like I said before... how conveniently loose and open to interpretation it seems... :(
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According to the Bible we are only created in God's image, not the only things in the universe.
Then again, the Catholic Church believed the Earth was the center of the solar system and was open to committing those to imprisonment for those that believed otherwise.
Religion is something mankind created, belief in a singularity (a God if you will) is an entirely different subject.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Then again, the Catholic Church believed the Earth was the center of the solar system and was open to committing those to imprisonment for those that believed otherwise.
And who developed that theory? Ptolemy. What did he create? The Tetrabiblos (Bible of Astrology).
Why would the catholic church adopt an ancient heretic's theory?
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
let me find my bible and the quote from it. I went to catcholic school for 9 years this is my first year in public school. the bible says that we are the only living things in the universe. so if we found life we would render the bible useless is basicly what akppa meant to say.
Thats a pretty large leap of faith there B17.
Nowhere does it say we are the only living things in the Universe.
You are going to have to quote Scripture and verse on that one.
On Topic: While Space Exploration is filled with tecnological achievements, as well as exciting finds and discoveries, I have to question what it is being done to correct the Rape of the Planet we currently reside on.
Lets put the financing into terraforming our once great Jewel into something that is habitable again.
Transform the deserts that are bleak and barren, and nowhere near as expensive to travel to.
Perfect desalinization processes so as to utilize the most abundant commodity we have, water from the Oceans.
Sorry to be a Killjoy, but I beleive we have more pressing concerns here than figuring out if we can colonize another planet.
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(http://images.southparkstudios.com/media/images/311/311_hang_on.gif)
Kyle: Wait. Wait. I think I can explain this whole thing. Marklar, these marklars want to change your marklar. They don't want Marklar or any of these marklars to live here because it's bad for their marklar. They use Marklar to try and force marklars to believe they're marklar. If you let them stay here, they will build marklars and marklars. They will take all your marklars and replace them with Marklar. These marklar have no good marklar to live on Marklar, so they must come here to Marklar. Please, let these marklars stay where they can grow and prosper without any marklars, marklars, eh or marklars.
Marklar: Young marklar, your marklars are wise and true.
Sister Hollis: What the hell did he say?
Stan: Wow! Good job, dude!
Kyle: Thanks.
Marklar: The marklars can stay!
Ethiopians: Wooo!
Cartman: Alright,
Marklar: You marklars must leave.
Sister Hollis: But you will all burn forever in eternal hellfire!
Marklar: Yes, that's nice. Thank you for stopping by.
(http://images.southparkstudios.com/media/images/311/311_greeting.gif)
Tronsky
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Originally posted by NUKE
Transformation? what do you mean humans can touch and feel transformation? That's funny. :)
And, BTW, if there was no creation, how could anything exist? If something exists, wasn't it created? The "concept" of creation...lol
What we see is things/energy being transformed, never created from nothing. We also cant see destruction, we see again transformations. But someway we have the concepts of creation/destruction saved into our "roms". But, at the same time, we believe into a God that was not created and that cant be destroyed, that God always existed and will always exists. But, is that God able to transform itself?
If we mix the concept of transformation with the concept of God, the result is that everything would be the result of a transformation of God, and, again, nothing was created from nothing, and nothing can be destroyed as everything would be part of that God.
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Originally posted by GODO
What we see is things/energy being transformed, never created from nothing. We also cant see destruction, we see again transformations. But someway we have the concepts of creation/destruction saved into our "roms". But, at the same time, we believe into a God that was not created and that cant be destroyed, that God always existed and will always exists. But, is that God able to transform itself?
If we mix the concept of transformation with the concept of God, the result is that everything would be the result of a transformation of God, and, again, nothing was created from nothing, and nothing can be destroyed as everything would be part of that God.
You are light years ahead of the average theologian. No comprende keptain.
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Originally posted by kappa
would have to be proof of life on other planets... or life in other areas of the universe...
Perhaps then, man, realizing he is not alone in the universe, would toss aside religious books and realize they were not written by gods, but by his fellow man and thus not w/out sin...
yes, imagine a world with no religion... its easy if you try... :p
FUNKED REPLIES: "yes, imagine a world with no negroes or homosexuals.. its easy if you try... "
Kappa I think its obvious you have some issues with tolerance.
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Uncalled for Grun, fix it.
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Originally posted by GODO
What we see is things/energy being transformed, never created from nothing. We also cant see destruction, we see again transformations. But someway we have the concepts of creation/destruction saved into our "roms". But, at the same time, we believe into a God that was not created and that cant be destroyed, that God always existed and will always exists. But, is that God able to transform itself?
If we mix the concept of transformation with the concept of God, the result is that everything would be the result of a transformation of God, and, again, nothing was created from nothing, and nothing can be destroyed as everything would be part of that God.
I think I get it... We are applying mans law that the sum of all matter and all energy in the universe is a constant.... that energy and matter cannot be destroyed..
But, I have trouble taking that one step farther. Maybe. Your not saying God is the sum of matter and energy, just that that sum is apart of God..?? That I think I can comprehend...
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Thanks skuzzy. :)
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Originally posted by kappa
But, I have trouble taking that one step farther. Maybe. Your not saying God is the sum of matter and energy, just that that sum is apart of God..?? That I think I can comprehend...
This is another good question, If we admit that all matter and energy is part of God, is God that plus something, or just the sum of all matter and energy? In any case, that therory kills the concept of pure creation from nothing and pure destruction.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Kappa I think its obvious you have some issues with tolerance.
How ironic your intolerant of my (seeming to you) intolerant post.. Almost as ironic as the post pointed out yesterday...
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See what funked wrote, thats what you are - and yes I'll get upset at attitudes like that kappa.
You are no different than Jerry Fallwell or Pat Robertson (religious extremists - not representative of people of faith as you would no doubt want to belive), full of the same ignorant fear and hatred.
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Religion is something mankind created, belief in a singularity (a God if you will) is an entirely different subject.
-SW
Not necessarily.
6 entries found for religion.
re·li·gion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
3. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
4. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
5. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
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kappa: yes, imagine a world with no religion... its easy if you try... :p
Most people are inherently predisposed towards being religious - if by religion we understand a more general notion of "irrational belief", not just adherence to a traditional church.
There are plenty of reasonable speculations how and why such tendency would develop through evolution as a survival trait.
Most people who are claiming to be non-religious or outright atelists hold one or more irrational beliefs - often militantly so. They take on trust what seems absourd to many, they refuse to read the opponent's arguments, sticking only to their own literature, sometimes they even refer to some forces and principles of nature that have no natural basis.
People believe in state being all-knowing and all-powerfull - which was an aburd notion 150 years ago. People believe in environmentalism, socialism, all kinds of other utopias and distopias. People believe in inherent superiority of one ethnicity over another one.
Those are all religions. The conventional religions have at least an advantage of passing through growing pains and settling in a non-radical, conducive to civilisation patterns.
It's easy to explain - thoug I will not do it here - that most newly- appearing quasi-religions filling the gap will be of much more disruptive nature.
In short, conventional religion(s) is an adaptive survival feature developed by humanity.
miko
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Originally posted by GODO
This is another good question, If we admit that all matter and energy is part of God, is God that plus something, or just the sum of all matter and energy? In any case, that therory kills the concept of pure creation from nothing and pure destruction.
So, instead of being tree huggers (im a tree hugger I think) we'd be star huggers? Believe in the cosmos like some believe in mother nature?? Could be..
The Mayans thought so.. They did not see chaos throughout the universe... They saw order in the heavens. From their Tzolkin (ritual), Haab (earth cycles), Tun-uc (moon cycles) calanders to the Fibonacci spiral or sacred geometry, they saw only a predefined happenings.. or better said, a reason for all happenings..
So, perhaps God could be more of an order for things rather than an individual hangin in the heavens.. Never really thought of it like that..
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
See what funked wrote, thats what you are - and yes I'll get upset at attitudes like that kappa.
You are no different than Jerry Fallwell or Pat Robertson (religious extremists - not representative of people of faith as you would no doubt want to belive), full of the same ignorant fear and hatred.
lol Grun.. tell me how I am...
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lol im still laughin at being called a jerry fallwell or pat robertson.. Send me your donations folks!! I preach the truth here!!
lmfao.. wow! where does it come from.. I wasnt preaching racisim like grun has said.. I dont get it.. What gives??
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All gods are false, faith is idoltry. The need to believe is a human weakness.
There does seem to be a lot of mysticism still around with regards to space. I guess it stems from the scale of it - humans have never been conditioned to think in terms of the universe's magnitude. There's some very abstract mathematical concepts around which are so counter-intuitive the whole thing might as well be driven by magic.
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Originally posted by miko2d
In short, conventional religion(s) is an adaptive survival feature developed by humanity.
miko
Or, religion is an innate longing built into us to ensure our search for and connection with our creator. If there is a creator it is not illogical to assume he would want that connection.
Circular argument.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
See what funked wrote, thats what you are - and yes I'll get upset at attitudes like that kappa.
lol so funked is Grun's eyes to the world..
Funked, were you aware of this? Did you realize your words carried with them such truth for Grunherz?
LoL I mention nothing of race, yet im racist??
I preach to noone, yet im a preacher?? jerry falwell indeed!
I'm having trouble gettin past this corealtion... Maybe its still yet too early this morning... but STILL!! lmao
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Originally posted by kappa
would have to be proof of life on other planets... or life in other areas of the universe...
Perhaps then, man, realizing he is not alone in the universe, would toss aside religious books and realize they were not written by gods, but by his fellow man and thus not w/out sin...
yes, imagine a world with no religion... its easy if you try... :p
No "preaching" here...
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
No "preaching" here...
:rolleyes:
My new religion...
Imagine a world with no Grunherz.......... yes.. imagine...
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
let me find my bible and the quote from it. I went to catcholic school for 9 years this is my first year in public school. the bible says that we are the only living things in the universe. so if we found life we would render the bible useless is basicly what akppa meant to say.
it would render that passage useless and in future copies they would leave it out...the only thing that could stop a religion is if god himself came down and put a stop to it...and even then a lot of reallly "devout" people would say "hes not the true god...hes the devil and hes LYING...)
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Play word games all you want kappa, your ignorance and intollerance is clear from your first post in the thread.
I'm sure you have some witty comeback in store, but save your breath, I dont care anymore, you made yourself clear allready...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Play word games all you want kappa, your ignorance and intollerance is clear from your first post in the thread.
I'm sure you have some witty comeback in store, but save your breath, I dont care anymore, you made yourself clear allready...
Grun.. I just want you to tell me how im being intollerant, ignorant, and racist?? Im not judging anyone in particular.. Im not telling anyone to find a new religion.. This is merely an exchange of 'ideas'........... Now plz.. make yourself clear?? Can you?? If you could just break down to me how im being those 3 things.. I really cant follow your logic, just cause........
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Fair enough.
Maybe I overreacted but for some resaon your first post pissed me off because of the disreard you showed to the 90% of humanity which is religious - in my perception basically you said they were idiots for holding their belifs. I think you should also read funked's comment and think about it, he made a very good point about the nature of your idea.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Fair enough.
Maybe I overreacted but for some resaon your first post pissed me off because of the disreard you showed to the 90% of humanity which is religious - in my perception basically you said they were idiots for holding their belifs. I think you should also read funked's comment and think about it, he made a very good point about the nature of your idea.
Actually I did.. Because I do have religious ideas.. Im not a racist and have no racist tendencies.. Yet, after pondering on yours and funked's post, I could see no relation..... I still cannot see it.. I dont want peps to have my religion (if I had one).... I want peps to be open minded enough to think past theirs... To think past the segregation of religion.. To think past their own hate of muslims, christians, baptist, catholic, protestants, and methodist.. I'm sure I left countless numbers of religious factions out.. Its not the belief in ANY one god im against.. Its the belief your/mine god is better im against... We are all just people...
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Originally posted by kappa
Actually I did.. Because I do have religious ideas.. Im not a racist and have no racist tendencies.. Yet, after pondering on yours and funked's post, I could see no relation..... I still cannot see it.. I dont want peps to have my religion (if I had one).... I want peps to be open minded enough to think past theirs... To think past the segregation of religion.. To think past their own hate of muslims, christians, baptist, catholic, protestants, and methodist.. I'm sure I left countless numbers of religious factions out.. Its not the belief in ANY one god im against.. Its the belief your/mine god is better im against... We are all just people...
In your post you said imagine a world without religion, thats quite a bit different than what you wrote above. BTW what you wrote above is rather nice and I agree with it a lot in fact.
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well, im sure you'll love this but I do also believe a world with NO religion could be a good place too.... but not a forced no religion, its too late for that... No religion from the beginning is what im talking about..
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Originally posted by kappa
No religion from the beginning is what im talking about..
What would prevent or preclude the foundation of religions in your proposed world?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What would prevent or preclude the foundation of religions in your proposed world?
science probably...either that or supreme overlords who killed everyone they saw kneeling
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Originally posted by kappa
well, im sure you'll love this but I do also believe a world with NO religion could be a good place too.... but not a forced no religion, its too late for that... No religion from the beginning is what im talking about..
There have been many that thought the same way. Some even tried to put it into practice. The Soviet Union failed pretty miserably. China hasn't done too badly, if you ignore many of their more blatant oppresive practices.
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Christianity : The worlds biggest sect?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What would prevent or preclude the foundation of religions in your proposed world?
I dunno.. im my perfect world perhaps a genuine feel of respect and compassion for your fellow man.... I can imagine quite the utopia.. Who cant..
One thing for certain, more people have been killed in the name of a god than any other reason in the history of the creation of our planet.. For certain, other reason could be found and probably would.. But how much worse could it have been in the past.. And what if our planet evolved to today w/ no religion.. Religion today as in the past is nothing but a crutch....
As stated in the bible, God is our father and his love for us pure.. Those of you that are parents, could you damn your child to eternal damnation simply for walking his own path?? For not praising your name daily? For not worshiping you on every Sunday? Could you burn your child FOREVER for any reason?? I doubt it.. My first reason for doubting organized religion as I grew up with it...
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Originally posted by kappa
One thing for certain, more people have been killed in the name of a god than any other reason in the history of the creation of our planet.. For certain, other reason could be found and probably would.. But how much worse could it have been in the past.. And what if our planet evolved to today w/ no religion.. Religion today as in the past is nothing but a crutch....
You have evidence to back this claim?
I can come up with some pretty high numbers of killings for other reasons. Something like 50 million killed in WWII, about land grabbing, not religion. How many were killed by Stalin? 20 million?
Let's hear some numbers.
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Originally posted by AKIron
You have evidence to back this claim?
I can come up with some pretty high numbers of killings for other reasons. Something like 50 million killed in WWII, about land grabbing, not religion. How many were killed by Stalin? 20 million?
Let's hear some numbers.
impossible to calculate... if you took both world wars and added them, do you think they could come close to 1000s of years of know life on the planet? Were not millions killed in the crusades alone??
also at least 4 million were killed for religious reasons in ww2.. was that part of your 20 million??
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Originally posted by kappa
impossible to calculate... if you took both world wars and added them, do you think they could come close to 1000s of years of know life on the planet? Were not millions killed in the crusades alone??
also at least 4 million were killed for religious reasons in ww2.. was that part of your 20 million??
Which 4 million were those? Certainly not the jews exterminated by Hitler. That was all about taking ownership of Germany from them.
I can name many more wars totaling many more millions of deaths that weren't about religion. How many can you name?
If you can't even began to quantify these deaths you claim in the name of religion why do you make such a claim?
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Originally posted by AKIron
Which 4 million were those? Certainly not the jews exterminated by Hitler. That was all about taking ownership of Germany from them.
I can name many more wars totaling many more millions of deaths that weren't about religion. How many can you name?
If you can't even began to quantify these deaths you claim in the name of religion why do you make such a claim?
yeah...but he used the fact that they were jews as a excuse...sure seems like they were killed due to religion to me
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Jews were killed in WW2 for religious reasons...
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I have found no numbers yet. But the christian crusades last from 1095-1578... Thats almost 500yrs...
lol some of the beginning actions...
The son of Eleanor of Aquitaine, queen of France and England, he was already a veteran warrior and strategist when he arrived in the Holy Land in 1191 at the age of 33. He took a different view of war from Saladin's. After one battle, he had the captured men–16,000 of them, according to William of Tyre's occasionally inflated account–beheaded within full view of their own armies. For 16 months, Saladin and Richard battled across the parched plains of the Holy Land.
Just 16months of 500 yrs...
Lets not forget the Muslims and Hindus....
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Originally posted by kappa
I have found no numbers yet. But the christian crusades last from 1095-1578... Thats almost 500yrs...
thats over 500 years
and dont forget those who were killed in france when someone had the bright idea of "purging" it of heathens
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Religion was the original segragationist of people... even in the bible.....
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Originally posted by vorticon
yeah...but he used the fact that they were jews as a excuse...sure seems like they were killed due to religion to me
Goebbels convinced the Germans after WWI that the jews had stolen their prosperity while they were fighting the war. Religion was not the reason for the slaughter.
Here's a pic that should cause you to reevalute your position kappa:
(http://www.inettek.com/stuff/GP11.gif)
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No one knows for sure how many died during the crusades. I doubt the total number came anywhere near even 1 million.
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not in the least Iron.. Arent we comparing 4,000yrs to less than 10 years of ww1 & 2?? The christiain crusades lasted over 500 years... How many muslims and Hindus?? I have no idea.. Such things are not taught round here in my school..
I cant believe though you wont contribute any of the Jews in ww2 to religious reasoning.. Thats ludicrous
How many were killed in bosnia just a few years ago.. The called it ethnic cleansing, but wasnt it really over two different cultures w/ different religions??
I mean come on Iron.. why do you want to argue this point.. Would it better for me to say as many have died in the name of god than just to war?
How many christians died in the old testiment alone?? This is just christians..
We've yet to discuss budist against hindus... Budist against Taoism...
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You are confusing religious people and religious extermists during perids of extremism.
Kappa your position is like saying all forms of social or political organization should never exist solely on the evidence that the Nazis or Communists or whoever killed many people beased on their own extremist agendas.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You are confusing religious people and religious extermists during perids of extremism.
no, im saying the number that have died because of something to do with a god..........
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Was Iran/Iraqi a land grab or religous fundamentalist??
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Originally posted by kappa
no, im saying the number that have died because of something to do with a god..........
Died by the actions of extremists.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Died by the actions of extremists.
maybe, but died because of an extremist view point about their god... which is my point...
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Originally posted by kappa
maybe, but died because of an extremist view point about their god... which is my point...
And your solution is to see a world without religions? (remember: imagine a world without religion)
Why not extend that thinking a world without political and social organization. Extremist views of politics and social organization have killed hundreds of millions of people.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Maybe I overreacted but for some resaon your first post pissed me off
From what I've seen it dosn't take much Grun. Kappa didn't conceive the concept of imagining a world without religion, just parroted what had been said a long time ago. Perhaps you should direct that anger at the person who did write that line....wait a second.... he's dead. Guess you'll have to argue with him in heaven, that is, if you make the list.
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Originally posted by kappa
Were not millions killed in the crusades alone??
They didnt have millions back then.
Oh yeah best result would be man-portable Plasma Cannons, like in X-Com UFO defense.
"Eat hot plasma death alien scum!!!!!"
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Originally posted by kappa
not in the least Iron.. Arent we comparing 4,000yrs to less than 10 years of ww1 & 2?? The christiain crusades lasted over 500 years... How many muslims and Hindus?? I have no idea.. Such things are not taught round here in my school..
I cant believe though you wont contribute any of the Jews in ww2 to religious reasoning.. Thats ludicrous
How many were killed in bosnia just a few years ago.. The called it ethnic cleansing, but wasnt it really over two different cultures w/ different religions??
I mean come on Iron.. why do you want to argue this point.. Would it better for me to say as many have died in the name of god than just to war?
How many christians died in the old testiment alone?? This is just christians..
We've yet to discuss budist against hindus... Budist against Taoism...
What does timespan have to do with it? You made a statement that religion has killed more people than anything else. Not even close to being true.
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Originally posted by Pooh21
They didnt have millions back then.
Ok than maybe a better argument would be of the Percentage of the world population killed. Beleive it or not people were alot more "valuable" back in the time of the crusades. Nations needed HUGE armys (in proportion to the total population) Farmers HAD to keep pumping out children in order to make a living.
Its not all about the total numbers but also the impact it had on the world
1 million deaths in B.C. times had a HELOFA lot more impact that a million in the 1940s. Not saying anyones death in not significat but just comparing it to the timlines population
I do think that being on mars is COOL though...just to kinda stay on thread topic
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I really don't know how many were killed during the crusades, may have been significantly less than a million. Oh well, as they said back then, kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out. ;)
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BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA ***
CONFLICT Move for independence in 1991 brought Serb opposition and
ethnic cleansing
DEATH TOLL-- 200,000+
NORTHERN IRELAND **
CONFLICT 30 years of sectarian violence
DEATH TOLL-- 3,200
LIBERIA *
CONFLICT Seven-year civil war with ethnic overtones
DEATH TOLL-- 250,000
SUDAN **
CONFLICT Northern Muslims pitted against southern Christians and
animists
DEATH TOLL-- 1.9 million
RWANDA **
CONFLICT Majority: Hutu extremists tried to wipe out the Tutsi minority
DEATH TOLL-- 800,000-1 million
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/history.html
Christian intolerance extended beyond fighting "infidels". It turned inward as well. The medieval Inquisition caused the death of more than one million people in the crusade against what was considered a "heretical" sect called the Albigensians in the South of France.
Of course it did not stop there, fresh from this "success" the Inquisition hunted down witches all over Europe. The death toll for the witch-hunts which terrorized Europe for three centuries (from 1487 to circa 1782) has been estimated to be as high as two million.
The Spaniards learned from these and came up with their own Spanish Inquisition. The death toll here exceeded thirty thousand. The victims ranged from girls as young as thirteen to women as old as ninety. Such was the extend of God's grace!
Of course persecution was not the only outlet for the Christian. War was another popular outlet for the religious instinct. The sixteenth and seventeenth centuries saw a spate of wars between the Catholics and the Protestants. These Wars of Religion were fought in the Benelux countries, France, Germany and the British Isles. The final death toll easily exceeded fourteen million.
Perhaps on of the most enduring "gifts" of Christianity to the world is anti-semitism. This hatred of the Jews, rooted in the New Testament, propagated by the early Church Fathers gave the church and the laity the excuse to slaughter Jews at the tiniest of instigations. Christianity holds a large part of the responsibility for the holocaust in which six million Jews were murdered in World War II.
Lets not forget those enslaved because their God was a lesser god... and sacrifices to god... Parts of this page below..
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#Total
Dedication of a temple in Tenochtitlan by Aztec king Ahuitzotl (ca. 1520): 80,000 human sacrifices. (PGtH)
July 2003 Nat. Geographic: 13,000 human sacrifices in last 250 years of rule (ca. 1300-1050 BCE)
India, Ashoka's Conquest of Kalinga (261 BCE)
According to an Ashokan edict, "100,000 were slain and many times that number died". He was horrified by the slaughter, repented and converted to Buddhism.
838 CE - Siege of Amorium: 70,000 Moslem and 30,000 Christians.
Motassem sacrifices 200,000 lives
929 CE - Carmathian rebellion in Arabia: 20,000 pilgrims left to die in the desert; 30,000 put to the sword in Mecca.
First Turkish raid into East Roman Empire: 130,000 Christians
1076 CE - Atsiz the Carizmian conquers Jerusalem: 3,000 massacred
TOTAL: 698,200 listed in these episodes here.
Delhi (1398)
James Trager, The People's Chronology (1992): 100,000 Hindu prisoners massacred at Delhi
Exodus 32: 3,000 Israelites killed by Moses for worshipping the golden calf.
Numbers 31: After killing all men, boys and married women among the Midianites, 32,000 virgins remain as booty for the Israelites. (If unmarried girls are a quarter of the population, then 96,000 people were killed.)
Joshua:
Joshua 8: 12,000 men and women, all the people of Ai, killed.
Joshua 10: Joshua completely destroys Gibeon ("larger than Ai"), Makeddah, Libnah, Lachish, Eglon, Hebron, Debir. "He left no survivors."
Joshua 11: Hazor destroyed. [Paul Johnson, A History of the Jews (1987), estimates the population of Hazor at ?> 50,000]
TOTAL: if Ai is average, 12,000 x 9 = 108,000 killed.
Judges 1: 10,000 Canaanites k. at Battle of Bezek. Jerusalem and Zephath destroyed.
Judges 3: ca. 10,000 Moabites k. at Jordan River.
Judges 8: 120,000 Midianite soldiers k. by Gideon
Judges 20: Benjamin attacked by other tribes. 25,000 killed.
1 Samuel 4: 4,000 Isrealites killed at 1st Battle of Ebenezer/Aphek. 30,000 Isr. k. at 2nd battle.
David:
2 Samuel 8: 22,000 Arameans of Damascus and 18,000 Edomites killed in 2 battles.
2 Samuel 10: 40,000 Aramean footsoldiers and 7,000 charioteers killed at Helam.
2 Samuel 18: 20,000 Israelites under Absalom killed at Ephraim.
1 Kings 20: 100,000 Arameans killed by Israelites at Battle of Aphek. Another 27,000 killed by collapsing wall.
2 Chron 13: Judah beat Israel and inflicted 500,000 casualties.
2 Chron 28: Amaziah, king of Judah, k. 10,000 from Seir in battle and executed 10,000 POWs. Discharged Judean soldiers pillaged and killed 3,000.
2 Chron 28: Pekah, king of Israel, slew 120,000 Judeans
TOTAL: That comes to about 1,283,000 mass killings specifically enumerated in the Bible. The battle of 2_Chron_13 is so much larger than all the others that we probably should doubt it.
Martyrdom at Soviet hands:
1921-50: 15M Christians in prison camps
1950-80: 5M Christians in prison camps
Orthodox: 14.5M k. by Stalin, 2.7M of them martyrs (1929-37)
Roman Catholics (1925): 1.2M martyrs
By Mongols
1214: Genghiz Khan massacres 6M Christians: 4M martyrs
1214: Diocese of Herat sacked by Genghiz Khan: 1M
1258: massacre in Baghdad by Hulaku Khan: 1.1M
1358: Tamerlane destroys 15-million-strong Nestorians: 4M martyrs
Conquistadors kill 15 million Amerindians: 2M martyrs (1560)
Christians executed by Nazis in death camps: 1M
Nazis exterminate 0.5M Gypsies
Khmer Rouge slaughter 2M (1975)
Kurds massacre 20,000 Nestorians (1843)
Massacre of 40,000 Vietnamese Catholics (1970)
The Ottawa Citizen (20 Dec. 1998)
15M Christians d. in Soviet prison camps because of their faith.
citing Paul Marshall, Their Blood Cries Out
ca. 400,000 Chinese Christians died during the Cultural Revolution.
ca. 100,000 Christians k by Idi Amin (out of 300,000 total k.)
Up to 500,000 Rwandan Christians died as witnesses to their faith (out of 700,000 total k.) (1994)
Citing D. Barret, Our Globe and How to Reach It
40M Christians martyred throughout history.
ca. 8M k. by other Christians
How accurate are these numbers? Well, at first glance, I'm sure that they overstate the number of Christians in Central Asia before Genghis and Tamerlane, and I can't recall any event in recorded history that put 676,000 Christians at the mercy of Hindus. And I'm not sure what they mean by 'Quasi-religionists'. And a million Bahai's? No way. But all in all, this is a lot of people..
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kappa, cultural differences are not necessarily religious differences. You seem to want to expand your original assertion.
Doesn't seem fair to blame religion for the killing of religious adherents by those that simply oppose their religion. I think you're going to have to discount many of those christian martyrs. Actually, since there have been many millions murdered by the nonreligious I think you need to add those to my numbers. Maybe they should even count double?
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If you die at the hands of someone that opposses your religion, you have infact died for your religion.......
and Iron.. these figures would represent no more than half the worlds religions... very very little here about the Hindus and muslims.... These numbers are no doubt hard to come by...
Further more... The time frame here is only a few centuries... There were countless 100s killed here and there... It has been happening for 4000yrs......
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kappa, I'll agree that many have died for their religion but that is vastly different from killing for your religion. No way you can say that if there had been no religion those people would not have been killed for some other cause by the nonreligious murderers.
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Originally posted by kappa
If you die at the hands of someone that opposses your religion, you have infact died for your religion.......
Now you are getting kinda stupid kappa. :eek:
Your positionn is: Religious belifs are bad because somebody may kill you for holding them.
By extension you are also asking for a world where people hold no belifs or moral positions at all - religious or not, about anything, because at some point somebody might want to kill them for it.
How about the 27 million russians who died in opposing the Nazi invasion of the USSR, I suppose if they just didnt resist (gave up faith in nation) the Germans wouldnt have killed so many.
How bout the 600,000 americans who died over the issue of slavery and the union? Think about it if those damn fool northerners didnt have belifs about the sanctity of the union of the states or those damn fool abolitionists didnt have wild ideas about black people being human and all then all those peple wouldnt have died.
Kappa I think in now understand your "utopia". It's a nightmare world of identical drones with no individualism or principles where diversity of individual opionon and perspectives would not exist as it would cause disharmony.
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Originally posted by AKIron
kappa, I'll agree that many have died for their religion but that is vastly different from killing for your religion. No way you can say that if there had been no religion those people would not have been killed for some other cause by the nonreligious murderers.
my original statement was 'more have died in the name of god'...
im saying nothing but millions have died because of religion.. twist words how you like... I also stated w/ out religion, people would still die.. other reason would be found I think is what I said...
Iron, you would have it that religion did not cause such death in the world.. You said post numbers.. I did... here they are and probably represent less than 25% of the actual numbers killed for religion or in the name of some god... 4000 yrs iron.. even just 3000yrs Iron.. thats a mighty long time...
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Now you are getting kinda stupid kappa.
Your positionn is: Religious belifs are bad because somebody may kill you for holding them.
No, it isnt..
By extension you are also asking for a world where people hold no belifs or moral positions at all - religious or not, about anything, because at some point somebody might want to kill them for it.
No, im not... My gawd man.. stay outta my post or learn to read AND comprehend what you read...
Kappa I think in now understand your "utopia". It's a nightmare world of identical drones with no individualism or principles where diversity of individual opionon and perspectives would not exist as it would cause disharmony
Clearly as related above of you understanding, you have far to travel...
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Originally posted by kappa
If you die at the hands of someone that opposses your religion, you have infact died for your religion.......
So this tidbit is completely unrelated top your opposition to religion and your beneral wish to see a world without religion. OKEEEE....
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So this tidbit is completely unrelated top your opposition to religion and your beneral wish to see a world without religion. OKEEEE....
wow Grun.. can you read? Let me help..
I have not said I want a world w/out religion.. Just to imagine if that were the case...
That quote you made of me was to Iron and his post to me.. sorry I should have quoted him.. Also, what I wrote is true for the point that millions have died in the name of religion or in the name of a god...
Frankly, Im suprised to recieve so much argument over Irons statment that few had died to religion compared to land wars.. He wanted numbers, hence I attempt to give them..
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Originally posted by kappa
wow Grun.. can you read? Let me help..
I have not said I want a world w/out religion.. Just to imagine if that were the case...
That quote you made of me was to Iron and his post to me.. sorry I should have quoted him.. Also, what I wrote is true for the point that millions have died in the name of religion or in the name of a god...
Frankly, Im suprised to recieve so much argument over Irons statment that few had died to religion compared to land wars.. He wanted numbers, hence I attempt to give them..
I can imagine one without religion, I already mentioned two, the Soviet Union and China. Religion may not have been completely abolished there but it most certainly was repressed. How'd you like to live there? No thanks, religion is the search for God and to be a better person. How forgoing this could somehow make us all better people I just don't see.
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Originally posted by kappa
would have to be proof of life on other planets... or life in other areas of the universe...
Perhaps then, man, realizing he is not alone in the universe, would toss aside religious books and realize they were not written by gods, but by his fellow man and thus not w/out sin...
yes, imagine a world with no religion... its easy if you try... :p
Here you are making a definitre statement of what you wish - a world without religion. You say the best outcome of space exploration would be that religion be abandoned by mankind.
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Originally posted by AKIron
I can imagine one without religion, I already mentioned two, the Soviet Union and China. Religion may not have been completely abolished there but it most certainly was repressed. How'd you like to live there? No thanks, religion is the search for God and to be a better person. How forgoing this could somehow make us all better people I just don't see.
Hardly a good argument Iron.. Since you have never lived in China or Russia you hardly know anything other than propaganda you have read or seen on TV.. Same as me... Russia is not in the position it's in due to religious repression.. China, with a population of 6 billion??, cant be doing that bad and will be the world's next super power... China is already one of the world's super powers and since China actually produces 'stuff' on a world scale, will challange america on a world trading status soon.. So other than over population, by what would seem happy reproducing individuals, China is doing quite alright as the world turns..
No thanks, religion is the search for God and to be a better person. How forgoing this could somehow make us all better people I just don't see.
Complete non-sense.. The belief that you must have God to be a 'better' person.. God does not make one 'good' and neither does 'religion'.......... This part of your post is rediculous in the least...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Here you are making a definitre statement of what you wish - a world without religion. You say the best outcome of space exploration would be that religion be abandoned by mankind.
Ok Grun.. sure thing.. Did you read abit farther to see my real problem was the segragation of religions?? Did ya Grun?? I'm sure you did, just forgot, right??
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Originally posted by kappa
Complete non-sense.. The belief that you must have God to be a 'better' person.. God does not make one 'good' and neither does 'religion'.......... This part of your post is rediculous in the least...
but you know the way that people become "good"? Preaching again, I see..
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Amazing how some will argure just to tell you your own opinion.. Forget adding anything of purpose.. Just argue with the poster, make up his point of view, then flame with non-sense that was never the point.... LoL not that there is one anymore...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
but you know the way that people become "good"? Preaching again, I see..
Not comprehending what you read again I see...
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You made blanket staement that religion cannot have the effect of making people "better." I disagree. While i certainly see the real negatives of religios extremism you seem to be completly unwilling to acknowledge any positives of religionn in general.
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If your main concern is extremist sectarian violence why start a threat propsing the best outcome of space exploration was the abandonment of all religion?
Why only post negatives of religion? if you wanted to discuss solving the problem of extrmist violence why the endless posts of million of dead and very few if any posts of wht should be done abpout it besides your nebulous calls for imagining a world without religion and wishing athe the space program would somehow disparove the existance of god and thus lead to the abandonment of religion.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You made blanket staement that religion cannot have the effect of making people "better." I disagree. While i certainly see the real negatives of religios extremism you seem to be completly unwilling to acknowledge any positives.
OMFG Grun... NO, I didnt!!
2 words for you...
READING COMPREHENSION
I said having God or religion in itself does not make one a better person.. Not verbatum, but if you read the entire paragraph Grun....... 4 sentences... Remeber, sentences make paragraphs, paragraphs make points....
There are many good religious people There are many good non-religious people... Does this help you??
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
If your main concern is extremist sectarian violence why start a threat propsing the best outcome of space exploration was the abandonment of all religion?
Why only post negatives of religion? if you wanted to discuss solving the problem of extrmist violence why the endless posts of million of dead and very few if any posts of wht should be done abpout it besides your nebulous calls for imagining a world without religion and wishing athe the space program would somehow disparove the existance of god and thus lead to the abandonment of religion.
Once again Grun.. read the thread dude...
I said more had died in the name of god than anything else... <-- not verbatum...
(gawd I cant believe im doing this)
Iron said, more had died in WW2 than ever died in the name of a god. He told me to post numbers to prove my point.. Hence I did..
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How bout this restate your basic position on religion in one post - use bullet points and be very clear. Because frankly I dont belive that you have been honest with me so far, your statemts of intent have cahnged too many times and thats why I chosen to be so abrasive and literal in my interpretions of your statements.
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heh, check out the thread title.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
How bout this restate your basic position on religion in one post - use bullet points and be very clear. Because frankly I dont belive that you have been honest with me so far, your statemts of intent have cahnged too many times and thats why I chosen to be so abrasive and literal in my interpretions of your statements.
LoL Grun... Not been honest? We'll its easy to check cause its all right here in the thread..
I've changed nothing and actually said very little.. most post have been trying to correct my cause when others would misread me.. Im sure I have fault in that... I am not a professional writter as I'm sure it's easy to tell..
Ok, I did change one thing.. I started with imagine no religion, I then (a few post later) requalified that the evil in religion is the segragation of religion.. That even in the bible, religion was the original segragationist.. Also that more had died in religious wars or in the name of a god than had died to land grabbing wars.. (due to the segragation of religion) Thats pretty much all.. The rest of this some odd hundred post thread was in defense of my position from peps calling me stupid and ignorant.. I'm sure you know these folks..
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Originally posted by Animal
heh, check out the thread title.
And hes right.. had nothing to do with the title it seems... Guess I was sidetrack by folks asking me why.. After calling me ignorant of course...
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LoL Grun... Not been honest? We'll its easy to check cause its all right here in the thread..
Dont LOL that one, I honestly told you I felt you were being disingenous.
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Originally posted by kappa
Once again Grun.. read the thread dude...
I said more had died in the name of god than anything else... <-- not verbatum...
(gawd I cant believe im doing this)
Iron said, more had died in WW2 than ever died in the name of a god. He told me to post numbers to prove my point.. Hence I did..
I didn't say that, are you intentionallly distorting what I said? You said more have been killed in the name of religion than all else. I told you to prove it and gave you some numbers to start with. So far I'm still way ahead.
Here's a few more, I'm just getting started. Care to admit you were wrong?
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm
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Some more:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1288230.stm
few more million here:
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~asiactr/haq/200001/0001a009.htm
Don't forget a few million vicitims of politicide in North Korea. Oh, isn't that one of your religionless utopias? Imagine that why don't ya.
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Originally posted by AKIron
kappa, I'll agree that many have died for their religion but that is vastly different from killing for your religion. No way you can say that if there had been no religion those people would not have been killed for some other cause by the nonreligious murderers.
Which is morally more correct
1. Killing for your religion?
2. Killing for your country?
One is for God... and the other is for hire.
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Originally posted by Nakhui
Which is morally more correct
1. Killing for your religion?
2. Killing for your country?
One is for God... and the other is for hire.
As a retired soldier I can tell you that there is no more a moral thing than to die for your country.
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I did not mean to distort what you said and the distortion is quite small... Thanks for holding true to your argumentative self..
No, Im not wrong.. Its easy to pull figures from ww1 and 2 as they were not that long ago (relatively) and the actions well documented..
Iron, your basically comparing 40 (if that much) years of war to 4000yrs of religious persecution... The links I posted more than equal WW2 death tolls.. Those not including many religions around the world. Nothing of many religious struggles around the world such as India/Pakastan. People were fighting over religion long before they fought major wars over land..
How many races of humans in the americas were lost to Europes desire to spread christianity around the world? How could you find numbers on this? How many were the Aztecs? How many were the Mayan? How many of each other had they killed over the centuries of their existence over different religions.. As I stated before, impossible to tell..
How about the Turks? They have been religiously killing or being killed since their entry into world history..
Modern war has been around for less than 100 years.. In that 100 years less than half of that actually experienced modern war.. When compared with the known history of civilization, thats a very short time.. Religion has been around since people learned to write on cave walls.. People have since been compelled to convince the other their god is more powerful...
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Originally posted by kappa
I did not mean to distort what you said and the distortion is quite small... Thanks for holding true to your argumentative self..
No, Im not wrong.. Its easy to pull figures from ww1 and 2 as they were not that long ago (relatively) and the actions well documented..
Iron, your basically comparing 40 (if that much) years of war to 4000yrs of religious persecution... The links I posted more than equal WW2 death tolls.. Those not including many religions around the world. Nothing of many religious struggles around the world such as India/Pakastan. People were fighting over religion long before they fought major wars over land..
How many races of humans in the americas were lost to Europes desire to spread christianity around the world? How could you find numbers on this? How many were the Aztecs? How many were the Mayan? How many of each other had they killed over the centuries of their existence over different religions.. As I stated before, impossible to tell..
How about the Turks? They have been religiously killing or being killed since their entry into world history..
Modern war has been around for less than 100 years.. In that 100 years less than half of that actually experienced modern war.. When compared with the known history of civilization, thats a very short time.. Religion has been around since people learned to write on cave walls.. People have since been compelled to convince the other their god is more powerful...
I can see that you will never admit the truth, even to yourself. I've shown you 70 - 80 million killed not in the name of God or religion in modern times alone. What makes you think these proportionately large numbers are lower in the past? Are you suggesting the only reason for war in the past was religion? If so, I can see there is no point in trying to convince you of your error.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
imagining a world without religion and wishing athe the space program would somehow disparove the existance of god and thus lead to the abandonment of religion.
Here's a thought...
Space is extremely hazardous to life...
Radiation, which is abundant in outer space, can sterialize multicelled organism and even mutate cell structure and DNA.
No amount of metal can protect from this.
The earth is 12 minutes away from total destruction... one huge solar flair from the sun and the protective ozone layer around the earth is gone... like a candle blown out in the wind.... and all life on the surface of the planet will die in a matter of a few months.
What if there really is no other life out there...
then...perhaps... there is a God.... but is that god a christian god, or a Muslim god... perhaps... the Aztecs were right!
In many ways scientists use what we know about earth to understand the rest of the universe... geology.. the formation of rocks... properties of light... heat... radiation.. on and on....
If the Earths ecosystem is also a microcosm of the universe... then we better be worried....
Sea turtle's are born by the thousands and die just as many...
Fish... spides... all species... some spawn millions and only a few thousand survive... Even the Earth is hostile to life... if it's not the environment... it's the preditors.. death is often instantious...
There's the quick... and there's the dead.
Is the Earth one giant egg.... incubating our species... protecting us while we develop.... as we multiply and consume we heat up the planet like a corpse heats up as it decays from a bazillion micro organism digest it... and eventually... we burst out into the universe to find another planetn and spawn another generation....
If the Earth is a microcosm... and the Universal is a macrocosm... then in the Universal Ecosystem... that means there are other species...
Does a catepillar realize how big the world is before it develops wings and flies?
Do humans realize how big the universe is?
What if our goal is to learn how to work together - like a colony of ants... and what if we don't... we die... Extinction... what if we are the only of our kind left... driven to the out skirts of the milky way...
this is our last chance to survive....
Any way... it's time for the simpson... can save the universe and all mankind another day...
cheers
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Originally posted by mrblack
As a retired soldier I can tell you that there is no more a moral thing than to die for your country.
Wasn't it Patton that said...
"A soldier's duty is not to die for his country but make the other poor bastard die for his."
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Originally posted by AKIron
I can see that you will never admit the truth, even to yourself. I've shown you 70 - 80 million killed not in the name of God or religion in modern times alone. What makes you think these proportionately large numbers are lower in the past? Are you suggesting the only reason for war in the past was religion? If so, I can see there is no point in trying to convince you of your error.
70-80 million? are you counting WW2 twice? I dont see it..
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Originally posted by kappa
70-80 million? are you counting WW2 twice? I dont see it..
50 million WWII, 20 million "purged" by Stalin. I listed more later, I could probably find another 10-20 million since 1900 pretty easily.
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Originally posted by AKIron
50 million WWII, 20 million "purged" by Stalin. I listed more later, I could probably find another 10-20 million since 1900 pretty easily.
Your link attributes 19million to WW2...
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Originally posted by kappa
Your link attributes 19million to WW2...
Huh? Which link? I don't think I ever intended to offer a link for the 50 mil of WWII, that number is widely accepted. If you want one I can provide it.
Here's one, there are many more.
http://www.geocities.com/dtmcbride/hist/ww2.html
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No more time today.. But of your 50 million from WW2,
at least 6 million would be the German Jews killed for religious reasons..
Another 1 million Serbian jews killed in Croatian-run death camp at Jasenovac by your own links..
Muslims k. by Chetniks in Foca-Cajnice:
Aug. 1942: 2,000
Feb. 1943: 9,000
Killed by Tito, 1945-46: 250,000 in shootings, camps and marches.
Mazower, Dark Continent
Serbs k. by Ustase: at least 334,000.
Collaborators k. by Tito, postwar: up to 60,000
religious reasons..
Romania:
Rummel: 484,000 genocides under kings Carol & Michael (1938-48) incl. 302,000 Jews.
Robert Kaplan, Balkan Ghosts (1993): 185,000 Jews from Bessarabia and Moldovia murdered in "the only non-German-run extermination camp in Europe".
More religious reasons..
Also, half of the 50million deaths are civilian and many are contributed to famine.. Not dieing from a bullet.... 50 million is not the correct number to use in your argument..
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I don't concede the jews were slaughtered in Germany for religious reasons. It was greed and economic reasons that motivated their executions. And racism of course. You should read up a bit on the rise of the nazi party.
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Best outcome from space exploration?
We meet a species not unilke us who tell us that their ancestors messed with the gene pool here on Earth thousands of years ago and we are the result. That makes them 'God the creator'. Kinda blows the old 'God created us' myth out of the water doncha think?
But then again, it's likely this species will have a God of the their own. The great Morgatron or something. There is no logic to religion anyway. That's the point. Having a God makes us all special and means we live forever in one form or other. That is intuitively wrong. We all know it in our hearts. Otherwise we would not want to continue to live in this world and wouldn't cry when someone dies. The notion that we cease to exist when we die is very uncomfortable even for an agnostic like me. Hence religion is invented. In atheistic societies, religion is replaced with devotion to the 'great leader' or to the 'great idea'. It's an instinct as much as anything.
Going to war and killing other people who don't agree with your version of the world whether it's religion or idealogy is the norm. Ridiculous circular arguments and name calling won't change that fact. Religion has killed a lot of people and caused a lot of misery over the years. Plus anyone arguing that Hitler's persecution of the Jews is not religion based really needs to get their facts straight. Persecution of the Jews did not start with the Nazis. It was ongoing and persistent for centuries and almost entirely derived from the Bible's implication of the Jews rather than the Romans in the death of Jesus. Remember the version of the Bible we have was essentially written for the Romans. The Jews were the convenient scapegoat. Despite all this their persistent ability to not only survive but thrive was also used against them. If it was solely economic reasons then all the Lawyers and Jewellers and Doctors would have been persecuted. It's pure sophistry to argue that anti semitism is not sectarianism.
Northern Ireland was mentioned. A figure of 3200 dead given. In fact for Ireland as a whole tens if not hundreds of thousands died as a result of religious conflict over the centuries not least as an offshoot of European religious conflict which killed many more. Religion and politics are inextricably linked. Only America wisely attempted to separate it and that constitutional provison still comes under constant attack by those religious for whom politics and religion are one and the same. As it is in the Middle East with Islam.
I think the most likely outcome of contact with another civilisation due to space travel is that we will become suspicious of their motives. Decide they are plotting against us, invade them, wipe them out and take their planet. Let's face it we been doing that for millenia here on Earth. Why should we act any different off the planet. We are a bombastic, aggressive and militaristic species. We like to fight and love war despite protestations to be otherwise inclined. Particularly the European male which includes you Yanks. We won't change on Earth or at the further reaches of the Galaxy.
To use a trekkie analogy we have nothing to fear from the Klingons or the Romulans or the Borg. We are the warrior race, the invaders.
'The destroyers of worlds'
Watch out universe. We are on the way.
Be afraid. Be very afraid you extraterrestials out there.
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Who said the jews haven't been persecuted for their religion? However, Goebbles convinced recently returned German soldiers that the jews had taken advantage of them while they were away fighting WWI and now owned Germany. Hitler convinced the Germans that they were the master race and deserved all of Germany. The jews had to go. No one would take them including the US. Thus the "Final Solution". Let's stick to facts shall we?
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Originally posted by kappa
at least 6 million would be the German Jews killed for religious reasons..
As far as I know they were "doomed" for being an hermetic community having too much power and money over the averagely poor germans, not because their religion.
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Bottom line: Religion doesn't kill people, people kill people.
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Originally posted by kappa
China, with a population of 6 billion??
6 billion live in china? omg, plus the millions killed in the crusades? plus the 70 some ostwinds produced total in ww2? what is this the new math? Facts pulled from a monkeys arse?
Greed has killed more people then religion ever has and ever will. Greed is what is false and everything.
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Why would the existance of life outside earth be proof of the non existance of "God"...
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Why would the existance of life outside earth be proof of the non existance of "God"...
Have you read the bible?
Why would a book called the bible be proof for the existence of "God"?
By the way, good posts Nakhui.
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Why wouldmy"encyclopedia factspulledfromamonkeysarsica" which states duckbilled platypus' live in austrailia say they exist when I have no proof whatsoever that that they do in fact exist except for this book?
I have never seen austrailia which means it doesnt exist and I wanna piss in the cornflakes of all the dweebs that say it does because I think it makes me feel smart when I say neither duckbilled platypus' nor austrailia, exists.
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kappa... your fanaticizm is every bit as bizzare, unfounded and threatening as any other I have seen. I would not like you to have control over anything that I do.
you are a fanatic in the same vein as all those you oppose.. you would probly think a war with them would be regretable but worth it to get.... oh, say... more old growth forest or shut down churches say... never mind that you have no real reasons besides your "belief"... it is strong and you must be right cause it "feels" right.
I got no more use for your religion than theirs. On a personal one on one basis it is just annoying... like jehova witnesses at the door.... best to just smile at you and let you rattle on with your junk science and "utopia" theories... When you get enough other believers tho... you become threatening. Hopefully that won't happen.
I don't care about "utopia" .... I dont think about it... if it exists I haven't seen it... If it ever happens... fine. Certainly not worth getting all worked up about a fairy tale tho.
Just like your "green" theories... mostly junk science and feel goodism... for all either of us know... 90% of the stuff greenies do is causing more harm than good but..... you "believe". so... impose your will. Might even be worth killing folks if people don't get it soon enough for you. If they don't get "open minded" enough they can be re-educated or imprisoned or just done away with.
prison feels like prison not matter who puts you there.
lazs
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Where does the bible preclude the existance of life outside this world?
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no one cares about my new austrailtheism movement?:(
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kappa -
I read a great slogan on a bathroom wall that fits here - "fighting for the sake of religion is like f---ing for the sake of virginity"
strk
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Originally posted by lazs2
kappa... your fanaticizm is every bit as bizzare, unfounded and threatening as any other I have seen. I would not like you to have control over anything that I do.
you are a fanatic in the same vein as all those you oppose.. you would probly think a war with them would be regretable but worth it to get.... oh, say... more old growth forest or shut down churches say... never mind that you have no real reasons besides your "belief"... it is strong and you must be right cause it "feels" right.
I got no more use for your religion than theirs. On a personal one on one basis it is just annoying... like jehova witnesses at the door.... best to just smile at you and let you rattle on with your junk science and "utopia" theories... When you get enough other believers tho... you become threatening. Hopefully that won't happen.
lazs,
I have no religion nor do I wish to impose any religion on any person, thing, entity, or idea that I am aware of... You call me a fanatic?? How so?? I dont wish to impose my beliefs on anyone or anything... Im not the jehovas witness at your door because I simply do not care how you or any other might feel to the extent I would wish to change their beliefs in their god... You or your beliefs (or any others) can and will not save me thru beliefs in a god.. What feels 'right' to me, doesnt to other people and that is whats 'right'... That is how it should be... People will disagree... Its a fact of any world I would imagine..
As far as control, I want none... Control is an illusion past our own actions...
I have written practically nothing in this thread of my 'beliefs'. A world with no religion was not my idea and it is just that, an idea.. Something that could or might inspire thought.. I preach to no one how they should live their life.. But if I did my message would be simple.. Live through kindness and civility..
So, lazs, in the most simplistic way that I can conjure this morning about my ideas on religion..
My idea of religion is mine.. Not yours or any others. I do not offer it. I do not sell it. If someone holds a different belief than I, thats ok. That doesnt mean they are wrong.. That doesnt mean I am wrong.. That means everyone should be able to practice their beliefs as they see fit to practice with the assumption that no belief is entirely right or wrong... No belief is inheritly better.... One's conection to their god is theirs alone.. People should be given ideas, not truths..
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Originally posted by strk
kappa -
I read a great slogan on a bathroom wall that fits here - "fighting for the sake of religion is like f---ing for the sake of virginity"
strk
How true strk!
Good to see ya bro! Hope all is well with you...
On a side note..........
is cpxxx clay pigeon? The oldschool cp that I used to fly with??
Was a good post by him reguardless.. 8)
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kappa... but... you would do away with religion or, at least religion that you felt was harmful. You "believe" you have good reasons.. the suffering... the deaths, caused by these religions... you would probly kill to get your way.. you would most certainly take away peoples rights to get your way. you are just as dangerous as them with your bizzare religion.
you also have the "green" religion... you worship at the alter of junk science deep in some dying old growth forest that the lightning hasn't cleared out yet... you would sacrafice what I want to your junk science if it were in your power.
you consider anyone who doesn't think as you do about religion to not be "open minded"... this is a catch phrase that allways makes me nervous.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
kappa... but... you would do away with religion or, at least religion that you felt was harmful. You "believe" you have good reasons.. the suffering... the deaths, caused by these religions... you would probly kill to get your way.. you would most certainly take away peoples rights to get your way. you are just as dangerous as them with your bizzare religion.
you also have the "green" religion... you worship at the alter of junk science deep in some dying old growth forest that the lightning hasn't cleared out yet... you would sacrafice what I want to your junk science if it were in your power.
you consider anyone who doesn't think as you do about religion to not be "open minded"... this is a catch phrase that allways makes me nervous.
lazs
Lazs... the only thing I can think to say to this BS is a big forget you buddy!! You dont know anything about me.. I have no idea where you dream this up... I would kill to get my way? forget you again buddy! Take away peoples rights?? Again, a big forget you buddy! Green religion? I've never heard of it.... lmao.. and you said I was preaching.. good gawd man.. Im NOT telling you how you believe.. You are telling me how I believe.. so again.. forget you buddy!
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Originally posted by kappa
Lazs... the only thing I can think to say to this BS is a big **** you buddy!! You dont know anything about me.. I have no idea where you dream this up... I would kill to get my way? **** you again buddy! Take away peoples rights?? Again, a big **** you buddy! Green religion? I've never heard of it.... lmao.. and you said I was preaching.. good gawd man.. Im NOT telling you how you believe.. You are telling me how I believe.. so again.. **** you buddy!
So much for peace and love. Your hippie card is forfeit.
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Originally posted by AKIron
So much for peace and love. Your hippie card is forfeit.
thats right buddy.. after being called a murderer and thief.. lol forfeit some for certain.. thanks for chiming..... 8)
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Religion has had it chance and it failed. Mankind needs space exploration to unite.
The sad part is that it will take a Armageddon size meteor/asteroid heading for earth before we dumbnuts realize this.
And then in the final years the earth will be united followed by total chaos.
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Completely uncalled for kappa,..fix it.
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sorry and thanks Skuzzy.. 8)
ps.. maybe not completely, but uncalled for...
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kappa... but it is fine for you to call religions and their members murderers and theives?
you started out by telling us that getting rid of religion would be a good thing. How far would you go? simply calling them foul names and cursing at them like you did me or.... maybe something a little stronger? For their own good of course..
you use all the catch phrases... "open minded".... I submit that you are probly the least open minded poster in this thread... that makes you.... potentialy, the most dangerous.
your little tirade proves you have the least self control... Why should I believe you wouldn't imprison or kill to get your "utopia".... you are the one who believes in utopia...
pretty crappy utopia if you you aren't even willing to kill (fight) for it.
lazs
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kappa... but it is fine for you to call religions and their members murderers and theives? lazs
I have not but I could do so because of the facts.. In the past they have been murders and thieves.. I have not... I am not......
you started out by telling us that getting rid of religion would be a good thing. How far would you go? simply calling them foul names and cursing at them like you did me or.... maybe something a little stronger? For their own good of course..
I started out by saying imagine a world with no religion.. Nothing about 'me' getting rid of religion.. see the difference?
How far would I go? Not far as I dont care about other's religions...
you use all the catch phrases... "open minded".... I submit that you are probly the least open minded poster in this thread... that makes you.... potentialy, the most dangerous.
I submit that you are probably the most ignorant in this thread.. I have not attempted to change anyone's idea of their god. I only offered an idea.. And it wasnt an original idea at that.. One like you would consider 'open minded' a catch phrase.... Not a reality..
your little tirade proves you have the least self control... Why should I believe you wouldn't imprison or kill to get your "utopia".... you are the one who believes in utopia...
Believe what you want.. Its obvious from the beginning of your absurd post here I have no control over what you believe.. Nor do I desire too... I attempted to make it more clear, yet you still believe the same. You read with blind eyes..
pretty crappy utopia if you you aren't even willing to kill (fight) for it.
Well, since we are talking utopias.. In mine you wouldnt have to die for a belief..
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Originally posted by strk
kappa -
I read a great slogan on a bathroom wall that fits here - "fighting for the sake of religion is like f---ing for the sake of virginity"
strk
hehehe
guess what...as you only lose your virginity once...from sex you can produce people who are (for now) virgins...so with the loss of 2 peoples virginity several more virgins can come into being...thus virginity in the end wins...;)
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"would have to be proof of life on other planets... or life in other areas of the universe...
Perhaps then, man, realizing he is not alone in the universe, would toss aside religious books and realize they were not written by gods, but by his fellow man and thus not w/out sin...
yes, imagine a world with no religion... its easy if you try... "
Why is water so important?
All the big wig scientists and people think that water is a MUST to survive in life as we know it. Well, if there is life on other planets, we dont know of it. So, that means that other life forms may be able to live without water. So, why are all the scientists worried about water????
Also (I didnt read the whole thread so it may already be there), did you see where Bush wants to send a colony to the moon!?!?!?!?!?!?!
America is screwed up as is, what good would spending billions of dollars to colonize the moon do when there are still problems in America and the Earth? Why not use that money to better our way of life now?
I dont know when we got into virginity and religion and murdering, so I'll stay out of that one. :D
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Originally posted by United
Also (I didnt read the whole thread so it may already be there), did you see where Bush wants to send a colony to the moon!?!?!?!?!?!?!
IIRC its in case the Earth gets hit by a meteorite... all life on Earth will be dead and those on the moon will be able to eventually re-inhabit the earth....
Also, it's to have moonsex.... kind of like the mile high club.... it's the thing to do for multi-billionaires...
the moon is perhaps the best place golfing in the solar system... all those traps and craters! Wow!
Tigar woods wins the lunar PGA tour!
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A meteorite won't lead to mass extinction.
A meteor of 10km would, but a meteorite is typically no larger than a softball and usually much, much smaller.
-SW
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we want a moon base because b00sh iz ze great s/-\T/-\ /\/ and wants to use it as a staging point for a big laser...death to ameeeeeeerrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiicc cccccccaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!11111111111ONE ONE ONE
;)
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your little tirade proves you have the least self control... Why should I believe you wouldn't imprison or kill to get your "utopia".... you are the one who believes in utopia...
Lazs the great provocateur. Best ignored are his thoughts unexplored!
strk
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kappa... to you "open minded" is a catch phrase... it means agreeing with you.
You certainly do blame religion for all the worlds ills... believe me.. if there were never any religion (an impossibility) then there would still be wars. If the only religion were "green thinking" there would be wars... if the only one was pacifism there would be wars.
greed and overpopulation cause wars not religion. I am just saying that your philosophies are just as prone to causing striffe and war as anyones. you look down your nose at those who aren't "open minded" (agree with you). I still say that you are one of the least open minded people I have read on these boards. You seem to think along very predictable party lines. boring.
to blame religion for war is exactly the same thing as using religion to start a war... you are one and the same as the fanaticts you despise.
lazs
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lazs... your so unopen minded that you fail to grasp anything I post.. Your such a one track mind that you cant comprehend I dont blame all war on religion.. .. Nowhere in this thread have I stated that.. I simply said that many had died in the name of some god.. and that is truth.. Infact, in this thread, I stated without religion war would still exist.. Get a clue lazs.. You dont know me.. I dont care if you agree with me.. If I am so predictable to you, why cant you see this? How many different ways must it be stated?
Dude, get off your horse and stop preaching to me.. Clearly you lack the understanding of my intent in this thread and lack the reason to sort it out.. So please, stop humping my leg and stop trying to tell me who I am.. I did not ask your opinion.. I do not care for your opinion.. I do not care for you... You ask me questions about my stance, we talk with rational words and perhaps an understanding.. You try and tell me who I am and you prove yourself correct on one point.. I look down my nose at you.. you are below me...
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so... you simply lack conviction? You say wars are fought in the name of god but don't want to eliminate religion? you know what utopia is but don't want to fight for it (or even define it)? you really have no point do you? Why even bring religion or god into it if you admit that without either we would still have wars...
mostly you make a point of avoiding any point. Why would it be nice if there were no religion? Who exactly needs to be "open minded"?
So what would be the advantage of no religion? Who even believes that the existence of lfe on other planets would have any effect at all on religion as a whole? So far, it's not so much that I can't grasp your point.... it's that you don't have a point... or that it is a moving target. That part about you being "above me" was pretty good tho... sorta like... well, exactly like, your losing it little cursing tirade. typical greenie...
lazs
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Originally posted by kappa
I look down my nose at you.. you are below me... I fart in your genewral diwrection, now go away you thilly angleesthe befowre I taunt you sthome more!
Now now Kappa! Behave, the last time you got your ire up, cows were catepulted over the parapet at those silly men in armour clapping their coconuts together!
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This horse has been beaten to death already. Let me settle this.
There is no point in discussing this further. Religious views are a pretty personal thing and are clung to like one clings to life. You guys need to settle on agreeing to disagree and move on.