Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GODO on January 08, 2004, 05:50:25 PM
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I have some friends working on oil installations at Saudi Arabia. Some of them have been there for almost a year and what they found is really disturbing. Basically, the royal family seems to pay lots of money to local religious leaders to prevent them to attack Royal family interests and even to prevent a fundamentalism insurgention. What do you think these fundamentalists do with all the money?
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I've never been to Saudi Arabia and I already knew this.
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Godo, your friends confirm something everyone in the US government knows. Saudi Arabia is a courpt 'house-of-cards' that's going to fall any day. Maybe another reason for camping out next door.
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Originally posted by Otto
Godo, your friends confirm something everyone in the US government knows. Saudi Arabia is a courpt 'house-of-cards' that's going to fall any day. Maybe another reason for camping out next door.
Neighborhood block watch! (Waves to Lance) ;)
Tactically, brilliant.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Strategically Ripsnort, strategically ... or strategery as your CIC would say, and it is not even close to be "brilliant".
what would you do different given the information that saudi arabia as we know my cease to exist?
myself i see it as being 2 steps ahead
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but we both know the goal is not to fight terrorism
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I have heard from many differing sources that the idea is to have a democratic Iraq that would act as a stabilizing force in the region. Might even act as a progressive force in the region and help bring the masses of iraqi people closer to a life worth living for instead of dying in spite of. Of course, our dear liberal brothers on the "other side of the aisle" see things in a completely different manner. Bush is the devil. A greedy hollow shell of an excuse of a man, willing to kill our kids to get rich and preserve his stock options in the oil industry...and on and on.....
A free Iraq, successfully governed by Iraqi people would be a blow to islamic fanatic terror and greatly reduce its influence. Silly amercian idealism perhaps? you tell me. There are some 130,000 amercians facing death every day in Iraq.
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I'm still curious GS would you fight terrorism....how would you do it if anything at all?
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so if somone punches you in the eye ask them to stop. I dont see how that works but maybe i'm not understanding what your trying to say. HOW/WHEN did it happen in germany/italy.
Also, giving in to terrorist demands would lead to more terrorism...yes/no?
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Originally posted by GScholz
No, not do what the terrorists wants, but the people whom they draw their support from.
Ever heard of the Baader-Meinhof gang or the Red Brigades?
No i will have to plead ignorance here. I do agree with you that winning of hearts and minds of the arab community is important. But I also believe that there are WAY too many arabs out there that have no desire to have there hearts and minds won by anyone. All they want is blood. Call me brainwashed but there is a whole culture out there (mostly caused by past American policy) that has nothing to do but hate us. There are alot of reasons why they hate us but the reasons start becoming irelevent when planes start crashing and people start getting killed
Not to say that I am a fan of war, quite the opposite. I serve my country proudly and am ready willing and able to answer its call, BUT I allways hope I never have to.
A part of me would like nothing else better than to turn a majority of the middle east into one big plane of glass. I know this isnt practical nor moral. So to me the next best thing is to have a strategic strong hold there. A place to hopfully gain support for our cause of peace. I think a lot of peace advocates think that the war on terror can be won through apeasment and negotiations. Well talk is cheap and I am convinced that the people that want to hurt my country have no desire what so ever to talk to us and find out what's really bothering them.
just my rant....goin to bed
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The whole thing about Christmas Tree's being illegal makes me wonder...
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GScholz, did you read this letter posted by Habu?
It was in a thread that had nothing to do with the post. No one had any thing to say about it.
As far the Iraqi situation goes, the following is from a Major in the US special forces in Iraq. He sent it today. He is a former Aces High player as well not that that matters.
"Ok, done with the pleasantries, now I'll get to the point. Everything I've seen so far confirms in my eyes that what we are doing here is good and right and should be continued.
The Iraqi people are good and decent, and are working hard to achieve self-government. Contrary to media reports, the vast majority of the poplulation are friendly and supportive. Waves and thumbs-up are not uncommon.
We are making huge strides in creating native capabilities for law and order. The Iraqi Police are a presence everywhere, and they are energetically taking to their new role as protectors of the people instead of bullies of the people.
The Iraqi Army and Iraqi Civil Defense Corps are growing by leaps and bounds. By this summer there will be more Iraqi infantry battalions than US battalions in Iraq. Their competence leaves something to be desired, but that will come.
As for our own soldiers, I am very proud of them. I was genuinely worried how the Army would react to continued casualties in an insurgent environment. I expected a good degree of overreaction, or of withdrawal into excessive fortification. But the troops are doing their jobs well, restraining themselves, and developing no animosity towards the people. The insurgents are failing to drive a wedge between us.
The most striking thing to me is the single-mindedness of purpose I see everywhere. Every soldier and officer I speak to knows what the mission is: to create a free and stable Iraq for the people of Iraq. We speak of it everyday, and we believe in it. Whatever you may think of the intentions of our national leaders, I can tell you what we are doing on the ground here: building a country. Morale is much higher than I expected, despite the grim nature of the conflict.
The enemy is clever but not invincible. Most of the prisoners we take are poor Iraqi Sunnis, and reliqiously motivated young men from Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, or elsewhere. They are brought here by fervent sermons and their own idealistic vision of defending Islam and becoming a hero. When they arrive, they are kept in isolation until they are thrown at a target as cannon fodder. Most attackers don't survive their first attack. Of the ones who remain, we round them up by the hundreds, almost always after tips by locals who want them out of their neighborhoods. When shown the reality of what is happening in Iraq, they are shocked to see Iraqis and Americans working side by side. Many of them realize they have been lied to.
Vast areas of the country are actually safe for travel. The Shia and Kurds are overwhelmingly pro-Coalition and actively support our efforts. That amounts to about 70% of the population and an equal area of land. Almost all Shia and Kurdish areas are friendly to Coalition forces. The british division in the south hasn't had casualties in months, and doesn't even wear helmets or body armor. The Dutch troops south of Baghdad walk the streets in pairs, passing out candy to celebrate Saddam's capture.
The big hero of this war is going to be Paul Bremer. He has kept the effort firmly fixed on the political endstate of an Iraqi government and the end of US occupation. He is reportedly wildly popular with Iraqis, who contrast his integrity and selflessness with Saddam and his sons. "
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" have and you're right, it has nothing to do with this thread or the war on terror. That you are rebuilding Iraq is one thing, fighting terrorism is another"
Your quote "Terrorists do not fight wars on a battlefield, they fight a war of public opinion."
Ok... I guess that winning the hearts and mind stuff in the letter was my imagination.
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Originally posted by GScholz
How would I fight terrorism (presuming I actually had the power and influence to do so)? I would do the only thing that historically has defeated terrorism: Gain the support of the people that the terrorist are recruiting from by doing what those people want. Just like it was done in Germany, Italy and Northern Ireland.
So, what you'd do is set up the entire world under an Islamic fundamentalist form of govt? Ok fine, of course you could go for the old "re-education" of the masses (in "those" coutries") in order to "unconvince" the people in those countries what they've been taught by various fanatical Imam's for the last who know's how many years. OR, do you just BUY thier support at the taxpayers expense with the unrealistic expectation that fanatics won't take your money and end up shooting you with it? Honestly, I'd rather not leave this bucket of ***** for my grandkids to mop up.
T.
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So what's the alternative, the ultra-lame 'glass parking lot' cliche?
Terrorists are always a minority - activists of any kind are. They are the zealous types who will bore you to death at parties with a single topic of conversation. I believe that most people in the Mid-East would prefer to just to get on with their lives. Appeal to the majority latter group, the minority have nothing to feed off; no recruitment and no funding.
The IRA was talked to directly, in secret, at a time when the British policy was no negociation (remember the Embassy siege). By bringing them on board, along with greater recognition for Sinn Fein, the radicals (who are every bit as radicalized and zealous as Bin Laden's mob) could be isolated among their own compatriots. This is the way to deal with terrorism.
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While I tend to agre with Dowding and Gsholtz opinion on the matter, I think there's something that must be considered in the equation.
Religion.
The terrorists we are used to fight, (RAF, BR, IRA, Basques, or even the original PLO), are mostly political or ethnical based.
Usually some concession in political direction, or some grade of indipendence, will isolate the extremists and win the battle.
With the religion in the equation the thing become more difficult.
A religion is by definition rigid and subject only to slow, century long changes, the twist that the arab terrorism has made towards a war of religion, (even if originally caused by mere economical and political cause) rend the solution quite difficult.
The Osama's plan is quite clear: suck in all the extremists, and eventually, with 9/11, create an opposite almost religious based force in the adversary.
What Bush have in mind is less clear.
Lame excuses apart (WMD, OBL, Free Iraq, and so on), Iraq invasion move can be part of a plan, played on the edge of the blade, to stabilyze the region.
For sure the short term advantage is the *cough* oil ;)
The long term is the possibility to have a strong democracy, a good example (not of the "we will kick you a**" kind) of coexistence of western-like government with that type of religion.
If CIA have the humility to inform Bush (or the future CIC) of the difference between a southern American republic with a Middle East state. ;)
But IMHO there are other moves to take, out of Iraq, 2 big moves of wich I have'nt yet seen traces:
1) Apply pressure on Israel to stop the slow colonization out of official borders and the practical apharteid of not jew religion citizens;
2) Impose a less aggressive stance by the economical forces (multinational companies) toward muslim countries, that (percieved) aggression, using basicly the dollar and a strong cultural colonization, is one of the stronger recruiting advertising for the extremists.
But theese 2 powers (pro-Israel and economic lobbies) are too strong even for an almost "full powers leader" like your presidential institution.
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You wouldn't find many Protestants in the IRA, Naso... ;)
There was even a Catholic priest who was directly involved in one bombing.
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Awww, c'mon Dowding, I know there's a lot of religion in Ireland struggle, but you have to admit there's quite a difference.
:)
Or you want to reduce IRA fighters as a "fanatic religious warriors" ?
C'mon, pommie! :D
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Originally posted by GScholz
Tumor, what the hell are you babbling about? Please make sense.
With that, I rest my case and leave it to the jury.
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Originally posted by GScholz
No, not do what the terrorists wants, but the people whom they draw their support from.
Ever heard of the Baader-Meinhof gang or the Red Brigades?
You're missing a very important note here. "Extremist Fundamentalist Muslim". I'll let you figure out what those 3 words mean, and also let you figure out why it would make no difference what the West did.
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Originally posted by GScholz
No, not do what the terrorists wants, but the people whom they draw their support from.
Ever heard of the Baader-Meinhof gang or the Red Brigades?
The RAF just sort of died out, they were not very well supported by anyone really.
give ya a little idea.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/baader-meinhof.shtml
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Originally posted by GScholz
I have and you're right, it has nothing to do with this thread or the war on terror. That you are rebuilding Iraq is one thing, fighting terrorism is another.
One of the reasons the "root cause" of terror people give for arab support of OBL etc. is the US suport of opressive regimes like that of Saudi Arabia or Iraq in the past that kept their people poor and frightened. Would not removing a tyrant like Saddam and implementing a process of Iraqi self determination and economic revitalization and freedom of expression not be exactly what you called for as a tactic to fight terrorism?
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:::chuckles::: Tactically brilliant? More like tacitly stupid, or at least negligent.
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Originally posted by Lance
:::chuckles::: Tactically brilliant? More like tacitly stupid, or at least negligent.
Okay, drop the politics, and pretend its a board game or computer game (This is the only thing you cans could probably relate to). You're on this Island far away from your enemies. The enemy is funding terrorists to go to your island and terrorize your population. You invade one of the countries that are your enemy who want to see you dead as well. They just happen to border 3 or 4 other rogue nations that also want to see you dead, even though one of these nations is considered "friendly"...they may still be financing your destruction via a 3rd party. Now, you're neighbors. You can keep a closer eye on these nations, and..they bring the fight to your newly conquered nation, not your island. Not only that, but there is no more threat of vital oil not flowing in and out of the area.
Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.
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Even if this disgust me ( * ) I agree with Ripsnort on this.
( * ) = ;) ;) ;) joking joking joking
:eek:
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Originally posted by GScholz
Depends on your goals don't it? If the goal is to fight terrorism invading Iraq was two steps backwards, but we both know the goal is not to fight terrorism ... don't we?
You're an idiot and prove it everytime you post here.
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Heh, now that you are begrudgingly allowing that Saudi Arabia could *gasp* sponsor terrorism, you really have to reach to keep yourself convinced that its okay to let them off for their part in making 9/11 happen, Rip. How is it impossible to fight our war in Iraq while also holding the Saudi’s responsible for their hand in funding terrorist groups? Specifically, their financing of Al Qaeda leading up to 9/11? It is not.
You can throw out all of your post but the last sentence, as your tactically brilliant move is not co-dependent on covering up the Saudi’s involvement with Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups. All you have left is the desire for cheap oil prices. No big surprise there, beamer boy.
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Originally posted by GScholz
I am sure you serve your country with pride, and if the call were made I am sure you would answer it with honor, however that is inconsequential ... you can't fight terrorism with an army. No one has ever won a war against terrorism, the only way to defeat terrorists are to rob them of their public support. That is what terrorism is all about ... public opinion and public support.
You are wrong that they only want blood; they have very clearly defined goals.
OBL said that in a statement after 9/11, very clear goals (demands).
I commend you for your service to your nation and for your enthusiasm to fight in this war, but even if you were called to arms in Iraq you would not get the chance to fight a war. You would be a target, and if you were to experience hostile action it would be in the form of a roadside bomb or another form of ambush. Terrorists do not fight wars on a battlefield, they fight a war of public opinion.
The war on (Middle Eastern) terrorism is a war you cannot possibly win as long as you continue to have a military presence in the region, continue to "meddle" in Middle Eastern affairs, and continue to support Israel. I know you won't stop doing those three things (with the possible exception of Israel) because the region is immensely important to your economy, so unless you somehow manage to turn the Arab public opinion in your favor you will never ever win this war, and I can't see any way that you can do that. It will be a perpetual conflict until such time as you realize that your national interests in the region isn't worth the sacrifice you have to pay in lives and personal security.
Sleep well Sir.
Terrorists do not fight wars on a battlefield, they fight a war of public opinion.
I suppose you would refer to the innocent killing of Iraqi's by these terrorist....fosters public support I suppose.
I was waiting for your mention of Isreal.
This country has never wanted to harm innocent people anywhere...never has that been our goal. Your methods of appeasement brought what peace? Give me solid examples of what changed in Palestine thru the decade of the 90's. Answer...you cannot.
As to the region holding economic concerns for the US....I suppose Germany is immune to the same concerns?
You spout a socialist stew and always have....best to just get over it as nothing you say here will matter in the least as to what the US does or does not do.
BTW....your countires method of wielding success with terrorists is to oblidge them and ignore them....wouldn't want to take a stand and actually face their wrath? Best to just appease them.
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Originally posted by Lance
Heh, now that you are begrudgingly allowing that Saudi Arabia could *gasp* sponsor terrorism, you really have to reach to keep yourself convinced that its okay to let them off for their part in making 9/11 happen, Rip. How is it impossible to fight our war in Iraq while also holding the Saudi’s responsible for their hand in funding terrorist groups? Specifically, their financing of Al Qaeda leading up to 9/11? It is not.
You can throw out all of your post but the last sentence, as your tactically brilliant move is not co-dependent on covering up the Saudi’s involvement with Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups. All you have left is the desire for cheap oil prices. No big surprise there, beamer boy.
Oh! Didn't know you did not consume any oil! Guess what, steroid boy, everything you use today will have oil-based plastic in it. And, the BMW gets 30 mpg, whats your car get?
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Originally posted by Rude
IAs to the region holding economic concerns for the US....I suppose Germany is immune to the same concerns?
Psst Rude, he is not German.
;)
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Originally posted by Naso
Psst Rude, he is not German.
;)
See....that's why I should just stay out of the OClub altogether....thanks for the heads up:)
I do maintain my socialist accusations however:)
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I see the point GS is trying to make but I dont think its atainable. I guess what he's trying to say is that if arab populations in general no longer tolerate extremists muslims they would have very little logistical support. Yes this would hurt them but again I reallly dont think that is achievable in the arab world. Most arab populations are dirt poor. They are one of the oldest races yet most of them have so little. Extremests point there finger at the USA and the poor hard working worn out family man says...."aaahhh so that's why I work my ars off for nothing"
Just another rant have to get back to work
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32. Are you going to ask for a noodle-length measurement next? If so, I already concede defeat to your superior machismo.
Of course I use gas, Rip. Where we differ is that, given a choice, I'd rather pay more per gallon in U.S. dollars and less (preferably none) in WTC victim's blood. That, to me, is the unacceptable cost of our government’s avoidance of confrontation with Saudi Arabia regarding their involvement with 9/11.
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Originally posted by GODO
What do you think these fundamentalists do with all the money?
Arabs, the Royal Family in particular, like tall blond white women.
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Originally posted by Nakhui
Arabs, the Royal Family in particular, like tall blond white women.
Yes, there have been numerous books and articles confirming this. I can't access any here at work because my employer has adult website blocking enabled, but Dan The Man down at the bookstore behind the airport has several publications verifying the Arabian taste in women.
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Gscholz, Let me ask you a question. You quoted OBL as saying if the “infidel armies leaves the land of Mohammed”. I assume he means the US in this passage and “enjoy security before we can see it as a reality in Palestine” this statement seems a bit ambiguous to me but I’ll run with it.
Let say that the US military is removed as asked and the Jews are relocated to another part of the world. I’m using this as an example because I’m not sure what outcome he is looking for in Palestine from his above statement.
Do you believe that OBL and his leadership would be satisfied at this point,”lay down their arms” or would there be a next logical step?
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I keep confusing gsholz with blitz.
what name does blitz go by these days anyway
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Originally posted by Lance
32. Are you going to ask for a noodle-length measurement next? If so, I already concede defeat to your superior machismo.
Of course I use gas, Rip. Where we differ is that, given a choice, I'd rather pay more per gallon in U.S. dollars and less (preferably none) in WTC victim's blood. That, to me, is the unacceptable cost of our government’s avoidance of confrontation with Saudi Arabia regarding their involvement with 9/11.
How is "willing to pay more for gas" have anything to do with WTC victims blood? If we completely boycotted foreign oil, particularly SA oil, how long would this country survive? a week? two? Now, I agree we should have had more intel within the Saudi family prior to 9/11, dare I say the Clinton era? An ounce of prevention....
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Originally posted by Lance
32. Are you going to ask for a noodle-length measurement next? If so, I already concede defeat to your superior machismo.
Of course you would concede, I don't use chemicals to physically enhance my performance when I lift. That stuff shrinks your gonads, dude.
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GSholz,
If I recall correctly, OBL doesn't care for or about Palestine one bit.
It is, however, a convienent rallying call for him to use.
I do think if we were to leave the region alone, assuming we could get oil elsewhere, it would consume itself. And I'm not taking about Arabs vs. Israeli's. I'm talking Arab vs. Arab.
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Gsholz,
I know where we get most of our oil. And I know who does get most of their oil from that region.
But as you said, OPEC does tend to influence the world market.
We'd be better served to "befriend" Venezuela, etc.
And you also have to admit, OBL doesn't really care about the Palestinians.
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Originally posted by GScholz
I don't know what the man thinks of the Palestinians, but I know one thing for sure; he has no love for Israel.
Your brighter than a 10w light-bulb.
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you know.....I actually used to think gsholz was a 10w lightbulb but his latest presentation has me thinking he might be able to achieve 40watts in a pinch.
My only question for gsholz would be: If you absolutely "had to choose sides" in the upcoming global war, whos side would it be?
The side of almighty God or the side of God almighty?
:aok
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I'll make it easy for you, Rip. We give a lot of money to Saudi Arabia in return for oil, a lot of that money winds up going to Saudi Arabia's government-run charities, the government-run charities in turn give much of that money to terrorist groups, and finally the terrorist groups use that money to buy weapons and train operatives that fly planes into our buildings and kill our citizens. Thus, a portion of every American dollar spent on Saudi oil winds up in a terrorist's hands and is used to kill our people. That is the hidden cost that we pay for cheap petroleum goods.
Screw that. At some point we have to take Saudi Arabia to task and make them clean up their house, or stop supporting them altogether so that they no longer have the wealth to fund terrorism. If that entails doing without their oil altogether forever and ever, then so be it. We’d feel a pinch, of course, as would the Saudis. But we would not be shut down in 2 years. We would adapt and be better off in the long run since we had stopped being a primary source of funding for the country that serves as the primary source of funding for those that would see our destruction.
That is my no bull****, no politics opinion. You will have to forgive me if I fail to see the "tactical brilliance" of wiping the Saudi slate clean, turning a blind eye to their support of terrorism and continuing to give them money that will eventually be used to kill Americans.
P.S. Your concern for my gonads is appreciated, if disconcerting.
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"Well talk is cheap and I am convinced that the people that want to hurt my country have no desire what so ever to talk to us and find out what's really bothering them."
True, we can't hold a town meeting and explain ourselves. It's easy for the religious fanatics to hold sway over the uneducated and impoverished minds that become the cannon fodder for terrorism. We're there and we're gonna be there for a long time. I believe being there is a tactical decision no matter how it's portrayed, but I don't disagree with it either. Only in another 20 years will we know if we are right or wrong. Nothing will change over there until the social system changes so that young men and women in the middle east don't buy into the terrorism line anymore. That means education and food on the table everywhere and thats a long way off. to the American fighting men and women.
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well said kj714
Im in total agreement with your view on that subject
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"You will have to forgive me if I fail to see the "tactical brilliance" of wiping the Saudi slate clean, turning a blind eye to their support of terrorism and continuing to give them money that will eventually be used to kill Americans. "
Agree with ya there, I think the US gov saw this coming a long time ago, but nobody at the top was willing to handle the problem. The House of Saud needs to work with us a lot more and they need to be held accountable for a larger part of what happened.
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We removed our troops from SA not to please Osama, but to scare the House of Saud.
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Why do you use the WTC as your only example for terror against the US.
Islamic terror against the US began way before 911. How much do you know about terror, except what you have read in the internet.
However like countless soldiers throughout history I will fight for my country and for my family, even if I know or believe my country is to blame or somehow in the wrong. It's simple really, this is my country and this is where my family and friends live, even if my grave shall be tainted with the same stigma as that of so many other soldiers who were on the wrong side, I will still fight for them. I will never take part in a crusade though."
Maybe US soldiers feel the same.
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Originally posted by GScholz
I think you need to take a closer look Sir, the young men and women of the Middle East are not as poor or uneducated as you seem to think
GScholz, it is not a matter of education or richness, it is a matter of mentality above these factors. My friends were (and are) also friends of very edutated, rich and infuent people at Saudi Arabia, and, even so, the maps of Europe at their homes show a muslmin Europe. France, Italy, Germany and Spain were painted as muslmin countries. These people had the "innate obligation" to convert my friends to the real religion (theirs). Even in very technicals meetings about oil pipelines, my friends had always "very polite attacks" to be converted to their religion.
You cant fight against the prizes promised by their God for that kind of attitude, terrorism included. The only way to change that mentality would be to change or nullify their God, and that is not possible.
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Do you have any?
Ya, unfortunely.