Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Saurdaukar on January 08, 2004, 10:14:49 PM
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PALM BEACH GARDENS, Fla. — President Bush (search) will announce plans next week to send Americans to Mars and establish a permanent human presence on the moon (search), senior administration officials said Thursday night.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,107807,00.html
:D
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Announce plans != provide funding.
I follow space pretty dang closely, and I haven't heard any rumbles about anyone finding funding or doing any type of indepth speccing out of costs.
It would be pretty amazing if something like Kennedy's challenge happened again, as long as it isn't just a flag & footprints mission.
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This would be good news if it had world participation both scientifically and monetarily.
Otherwise, its just another pipe dream.
May as well tack a bill on there that proposes to build a portable nuclear power generator the size of a stopwatch in two years.
-SW
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to much. AKSWufle i agree
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A global mission would be fantastic.
Im just glad to see someone resurect these ideas again - I think our country needs something other than government finances to discuss and (gasp) take pride in.
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Pride hell, we gotta do it. Humanity's next big leap should be into space. Otherwise we'll just stagnate here.
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A global mission is really the only way we'll get to Mars, or even a station on the moon. No way can America alone foot the bill for the costs of that undertaking.
Just getting a shuttle launch is a whole ****load of money.
Truthfully, it is within our power to make it a global mission - but that same pride we are supposed to feel in our government (I could of sworn it should of been in our country) is what prevents this president from creating the plans to get the world involved in this project... because he wants a re-election.
Space exploration requires the participation and cooperation of humankind, one country can not go it alone.
-SW
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"Space, the final frontier.
These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise, its five year mission, to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before."
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WOOT. Atleast we're going to START it. May be a long ways off, but hell, why not begin now?
Originally posted by GScholz
I say let's stop killing each other and start killing Martians instead, must be a lot more productive ... I think.
LOL - Animal commented in another thread along those lines. Something like "The only kind of common goal of which humanity will unite is to KILL SOMETHING" :D Sure, throw some martians our way.
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A professor of Physics at my university specialized in Cosmic Radiation. He worked at Langley research labs for 20 years developing protection for astronauts undergoing intense radiation treatment in space. He threw some numbers at us regarding the amount of radiation humans are subjected to per year... I can't remember the units though. Millirems? Milli might be too strong.
Americans on average: 4
Astronauts: 150
Highest "limit" one should be exposed to yearly is around 500.
A trip to Mars would expose astronauts to about 1000.
(Even if the units are off, the values should get my point across)
Just one of the many many hurdles needed to overcome.
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Oct, the only thing being started is paper work and plans.
His father did the same thing, and they were too expensive to be placed on the forefront of "Things to do".
Unless an actual budget is allocated for this project, and NASA is actually given a memorandum to do this - nothing is being started at all.
-SW
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"Americans on average: 4
Astronauts: 150
Highest "limit" one should be exposed to yearly is around 500.
A trip to Mars would expose astronauts to about 1000.
(Even if the units are off, the values should get my point across)
Just one of the many many hurdles needed to overcome."
That's easy. (My solution also makes it a multinational endevour, too.) Send Canadians and don't tell them about the radiation stuff.
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lol majic. I say send Californians from the valley. They outta be immune to all that crap by now ;)
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Oct, the only thing being started is paper work and plans.
His father did the same thing, and they were too expensive to be placed on the forefront of "Things to do".
Unless an actual budget is allocated for this project, and NASA is actually given a memorandum to do this - nothing is being started at all.
-SW
I would hope paperwork and plans have already started. I mean, anyone even discussing the idea (NASA scientists included) is a start to me. That said, we've started a long time ago :)
I dont remember Bush Sr even talking about it. He give some short little crap speech and that was it?
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People have been talking about it for decades now. Scientists have been thinking about it too.
Really, unless money is allocated and NASA is given a project to build a Moon station or bring humans to Mars - then its just a re-election ploy.
For Bush Sr, this is from that article:
On the 20th anniversary of the first manned moon landing in 1989, his father, then-President Bush, called for lunar colonies and a Mars expedition: "I'm not proposing a 10-year plan like Apollo; I'm proposing a long-range, continuing commitment. ... For the new century: Back to the moon; back to the future. And this time, back to stay. And then a journey into tomorrow, a journey to another planet: a manned mission to Mars."
The prohibitively expensive plan went nowhere.
-SW
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The blame for why it went nowhere can be traced directly to NASA. The 1st Bush administration said, "Let's do something. First things first, how much will this cost? Let's start writing some checks."
The NASA administration clustered in a tight circle and whispered furiously back and forth, then finished and stood up. They said "All we need, Mr. President, is four hundred and fifty billion dollars."
I imagine there was a slight pause, during which Bush Sr. and his aides looked at each other for a moment before coughing slightly. "Hmm, looks like my pen is dry. Why don't I get back to you?"
That was the end of that.
Serious, no joke, they seriously said $450 billion after the president publically said he wanted to make this happen.
Their response here will demonstrate whether they learned their lesson or not.
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$450 billion seems like a lot - until you get into details...
For fiscal year 2000,NASA calculated an average cost per launch of $759 million based on four shuttlelaunches.
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d011000r.pdf
-SW
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It IS a lot, especially considering that the entire NASA budget is $15 billion.
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Yeah, but how many people have we sent beyond the moon and brought back?
Electronics are one thing, they need basic shielding and great programming - and they only go one way.
People, well now you introduce so many more extra costs its simply impossible to calculate unless you are in the field. The cost of a space craft alone to get 2 humans to Mars and back would no doubt exceed NASA's current budget restraints.
Anyhow, I have to sleep. As a closing note, I really want space exploration to succeed. However, I simply do not see it succeeding without global cooperation.
-SW
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Exactly. There's no realistic way NASA could send humans to Mars on their current budget, even if they slashed every other project to the bone.
My skepticism about this announcement is because I know that this cannot happen without more money, and Bush can't just write a check. NASA has to provide estimates that are realistic AND palatable to Congress.
Last time they were given that opportunity, they failed.
I hope history doesn't repeat itself.
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One addition, I think space exploration can succeed just fine without global cooperation.
The US went to the moon. It was a flag & footprints mission, but we did everything we planned because there was only one country squabbling internally over every detail.
The ISS is an example of what happens when you make it international. It is non-functional, is nowhere near meeting any of its construction, budgetary, or technical targets, and makes every avid space fan groan with embarrassment because it makes everyone else think space is impossible to pull off.
Don't get me wrong, I love Russian space technology. Their Soyuz is a perfect model of a succesful, mature, and well designed technology. Their Proton boosters have amazing lift and cost. The Buran could have been great! My beef is not with the Russians, it is because the level of project management that needs to exist to pull of an international mars mission does not exist. There are people out there with the skill to wrangle a bunch of countries and make them work together to get stuff done, but those people will never be given the authority they need to do their jobs. There is a precedent that has been set that says the every time the money hits a certain point, project management suffers and politics takes charge.
I'm fine with international cooperation, but I challenge the assertion that it is absolutely necessary to pushing out the frontiers.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,107807,00.html
:D
er...is that all of you or just a few?
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Only a few of us, along with a coalition of the willing.
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Heh...whining tards. Nothing new with that.
http://vesuvius.jsc.nasa.gov/er/seh/ricetalk.htm
Kennedy:
We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.
Whining tards:
Its just a pipe dream.
We cant do it alone,we need help from others nations...like France.
We cant afford it.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Only a few of us, along with a coalition of the willing.
wow...that many! This mean's NASA sending a 1980 honda civic to mars then?
I should ask them to get me a t-shirt...NASA spent all these billions on a mars mission, and all they brought me back was this lousy T-shirt
Tronsky
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Going to the moon is one thing. Going to Mars is quite another. The radiation issues alone make sending humans through that amount of space a highly risky venture. We probably don't have the technology to even attempt it right now.
I don't believe any one nation can do it alone. It will be the huge multi-nationals that make the leap, in some kind of partnership with the US, Russia, China, the EU and maybe even the sub-continent.
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A moon base would be a good start.
Getting people and material there and back.
Constructing things under those circumstances.
And learning about how to block cosmic radiation from a static base on another "planet".
Wasn't that also in the plan for mars?
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Yep, and one of the objectivces of the ISS was to be part of this effort toward the final goal of a permanent base on the moon and then man on Mars.
The experiment is'nt yet failed, but it's not in good shape :(
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Originally posted by Dowding
..... We probably don't have the technology to even attempt it right now. .....
Your sentiment could have been said (and probably was by some) when JFK challenged us about the moon.
Interplanetary radiation sheilding is possible as water is an excellent sheild and many designs have proposed using a 'storm cellar' within a space ship to weather the solar storms.
I have yet to read of a solution to the lack of radiation sheilding on the Martian surface however.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I have yet to read of a solution to the lack of radiation sheilding on the Martian surface however.
One word: Caves :)
Seriously, the best option that the experts are considering is the construction of underground facilities for astronauts to live while in solar maximums.
Daniel
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So the first humans on Mars will be (were) cavemen?
I wondered who built the face and the pyramid...
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Probably Martians with lots of free time... who can't blame them, they probably didn't have BBS
Daniel
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Global funding is not a big obstacle IMO, since there has been a lot of international funding and science lately.
But right now we should still stick with sending manouverable probes and trying to make them last for multiple years on a ground mission. Currently there is huge ongoing developement with robots that can handle varying tools. They could be sent to build the platforms for space stations ready
They work 24/7, which makes them very efficent on the long run compared to humans.
That would have a lot of spinoff value too, i dont think you would be getting as much from manned moonstation.
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Originally posted by CyranoAH
Probably Martians with lots of free time... who can't blame them, they probably didn't have BBS
Daniel
Hmm, i have my suspicions on certain inviduals here..After all, they now have plenty of high gain antennas from the "failed" missions.
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Good thing Chuck Yeager didnt listen to all the nay-sayers when he flew the Spruce Goose non-stop across the Atlantic.
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Originally posted by SunTracker
Good thing Chuck Yeager didnt listen to all the nay-sayers when he flew the Spruce Goose non-stop across the Atlantic.
:D
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Originally posted by SunTracker
Good thing Chuck Yeager didnt listen to all the nay-sayers when he flew the Spruce Goose non-stop across the Atlantic.
Has that one been declassified already?
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I must have missed something cause that was odd.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Exciting! I hope it happens, the US is prolly the only single country that has the economy to do it alone, but I hope the bill will be spread around a bit this time (unlike the Moon) so more can be accomplished.
This is where your liberals/socialists from the past (Re:1970's) differ from the present. They believed that Gov't spending shouldn't be wasted in space flight while the country still had poor.
I give you Steve Miller lyrics as an example of how the left thought it was a big waste of money to explore space:
"I want to fly like an Eagle"
Feed the babies
Who don't have enough to eat
Shoe the children
With no shoes on their feet
House the people
Livin' in the street
Oh, oh, there's a solution
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what about a misson to get rid of all the space junk in earths orbit
we need a spring cleanin
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Hmm, why not focus on the problems of the earth before we start going to other planets. Schools, immigration, and new energy sources are a few things that come to mind...
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Kevin,
Mankind needs a common goal to focus on... and its space that will do the trick...
Imagine every country getting their own planet.
:)
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Originally posted by Maniac
Kevin,
Mankind needs a common goal to focus on... and its space that will do the trick...
A more useful common goal would be the immediate problem of energy. Work together to make power, not gigantic space stations.
Imagine every country getting their own planet.
:)
So then not only will we have the problems of religion and land on earth, but also in space! ;)
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ok ok ok,
Imagine getting your own planet ;)
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A common misconception around space travel is that the money is spent on space. That's incorrect, it's spent on the ground. It employees thousands of people and develops technology that benefits everyone. If the space program didn't exist, then people in the 3rd world would be in much worse shape.
It's shortsighted to say 'let's solve our problems on earth first', as well as disingenuos. Developing space benefits everyone here on the ground.
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O boy what are we gonna do when we get there?
Say we did it?
I'm sure tax payers will be happy knowing all there money is being spent on such important things like this.
heaven forbide we spend It on the education system in the country.
Or help feed the millions of starving children around the globe.
Freekin Idiots
:rolleyes: