Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: miko2d on January 09, 2004, 10:20:36 AM
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I am amazed at the amount of hype and enthusiasm that the prospects of manned missions or even bases on Mars and Moon cause among the general population.
It should be obvious to anyone that the settlement of Mars and Moon distracts attention and resources from real exploration and exploitation of "space" outside Earth.
Mars and Moon are planets. We know how to live on planets. We know advantages and disadvantages. For settlement, Mars and Moon combine the worst disadvantages of planets with no advantages to speak of.
We get no essential diference between living there and here on Earth - except at hugely increased cost in labor and lives. There are no easily-available resources there, no wood or oil to burn initially, probably no or few radioactives to use in nuclear reactors - due to the smaller planet's size. Probably few metals in general and no oil and gas to easily produce plastics.
We will not learn anything new there compared to what we learn establishing a colony on Earth in some inhosplitable place at much smaller cost.
The reason for humanity to spread so that a catastrophe on Earth does not wipe us out is a valid one. But going to Mars or Moon are the worst choices because such colonies would be small and non-self-sufficient for much longer than if they were established elsewhere.
One of the worst features of the living there that nobody seems to think of is gravity. It's too low and there is no efficient way to increase it.
At the same time it's high enough to make resource-gathering expensive and transport of bulk materials to and from space prohibitive.
People experience hugely negative health effects from living in low gravity. Even if somehow humans can adapt to the low gravity - only descendats of those who already have proper genes, they will not be able to come back to Earth and live here. We will just split the humanity into pieces instead of spreading it around.
Any one with half a brain can realise that the way off-earth for humanity is not the planets but the Asteroid Belt.[/i]
Rotating habitats can provide the exact Earth gravity in a wide variety of configurations. Cylinder, torus, or just a room at the end of a stick with a counterweight on the other end - add some spin and voila - earth's gravity!
The abundant astheroid material can be used to construct yards-thick shielding against the space radiation.
The cheap and abundant solar energy can be obtained by creating enormous solar-mirrors - tens of miles wide and composed of hair-thin alluminized mylar.
Such mirrors would be impossible to construct on a planet, even at Moon gravity gravity and on Mars there are also winds. Besides, any planet-based solar station would be pointed directly at the Sun only a fraction of the day and will not see the sun half of the time.
In space, you just focus a solar mirror on a solar panel or a water tank of a steam turbine and you have cheap stable electricity.
Focus it some more and you can melt any piece of rock, even the size of the mountain. Spin such a molten mountain and the layers will separate into distinct elements to be used at need or formed into habitats, etc.
Space is unlimited, energy is unlimited, material is unlimited, the gravity can vary from 1 Earth for living to many times that for centrifuges to zero for indistrial processes.
Low-thrust high-endurance plasma engines and solar sails can provide enough motive power to ensure most of the non-urgent transportation needs.
All kinds of modular habitats can be easily developed. We have experience with submarines already. Such habitats can join at will or split away and join other collections. The political problem of seccesion while staying in place geographically would not exist.
If you do not like the rules of the "state" you live in, just "emigrate" and take your "land" with you. Any kind of society organisation could be tried without coming into conflict with any other group of people.
Real-estate could be aquired/created without crowding other people out - just buy a brand-new extension module for your private piece. You have more acreage while none of your neighbours has less.
There could be no scarcity of raw materials for millenia. The trade would be based not on the historic accident of sitting on a natural supply of resources but only on variability of intellectual capital - specialisation in technology, research, intelligence, talents and inclinations.
Of course you would not hear such plans from politicians.
What do you think?
miko
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Miko, let's better work together for 50 years and build Communism all over the world.
Believe me, technicaly it's easier.
It seems to me that you have read too much Heinlein's books for kids recently. :rolleyes:
Rotating habitats are a bad substitute for gravity. Just try to imagine that your head suffers from less "gravity" then your toes.
It's just one of the engineer's arguments.
Why should we go anywhere for no economical or political or social reasons? Why don't we have a settlement on top of Everest? People reached there in 1953! Or 11km deep in the sea? People were there before the Moon landing!
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I agree that the asteroid belts are a much better target for space settlements.
But I am all over the idea of making a moon settlement and reaching Mars. Even if it will not bring profit, it will force huge technological advances. Plus its something that is great, symbolically. Like the making of the pyramids. It did not bring any profits to the Egyptians then, but it was still a great achievement. A wonder. I believe in wonders, I like em.
It can be done, we have the resources, why not? Its money that would otherwise end up in B-2 superduper bombers and F-22's.
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That 'razor thing' isnt something you subscribe to, eh?
Option 1: We're going to Mars so we can exploit the workers of the world and distract them from our evil plan to subjugate the entire population of the Earth. Soon global domination will be within our grasp and they will pay for it.
Option 2: Um... we just wanna go, man, itll be fun.
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Boroda: It seems to me that you have read too much Heinlein's books for kids recently. :rolleyes:
It may be obvious to the intellect of your caliber why Heinlen's scientific premices were wrong, but you would have to explain that to some of us.
Rotating habitats are a bad substitute for gravity. Just try to imagine that your head suffers from less "gravity" then your toes.
For a person 6 feet tall, a habitat rotating around 60 feet radius (20 meters) the difference in gravity is 1/10. Half that when a person is sitting and none of it while lying down, which is 1/3 of the time.
Make it 600 feet (200 meters) and the difference is 1/100.
Make it 6000 feet (200o meters) and the difference is 1/1000.
It's not expensive - after all it's just a piece of cable with a counterweight on the other end.
I can see how it would affect baseball playing or dart throwing but biological effects?
Why should we go anywhere for no economical or political or social reasons?
To escape economical, political and planetary (asteroid hit) circumstances we are unable to change?
Animal: Even if it will not bring profit, it will force huge technological advances.
On a scale of a possible settlementm you can simulate moon conditions - vacuum, scarcity of resources, self-support - right here on earth at much lower expense. The only thing we cannot model is low gravity.
Saurdaukar: That 'razor thing' isnt something you subscribe to, eh?
I subscribe to the idea that free people should be able to pursue their separate goals without coercing anyone.
Option 2: Um... we just wanna go, man, itll be fun.
I don't mind you going there - at your own risk and expense.
miko
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I'm staying here on Earth. Send me a postcard.
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Originally posted by miko2d
I don't mind you going there - at your own risk and expense.
miko
As if this wasnt clear in the 85 other posts you have made saying exacly the same thing.
The risk will be mine but the cost? The cost, my confused friend, will be yours... MUAHAHAHAH!!!
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Saurdaukar: As if this wasnt clear in the 85 other posts you have made saying exacly the same thing.
It was not clear to most people who responed to those "85 other posts". They seemed to believe I was against their funding mission to Mars or against space research in general.
Now, would you care to contribute anything to the technical discussion (and explain whatever you ment by the "'razor thing")rather than derail the thread into politics - for no apparent reason than to hyppocritically flaunt it after telling me yesterday not to do such a thing.
Or at least you could have came up with statements that make more (or any) sense, political or not.
In order to "exploit the workers of the world and distract them" not necessary to waste resources on the worthless Mars venture. The ignorants would as easily be exploited and distracted by a great expedition to the asteroid belt. It does not have to cost less or employ fewer government workers.
As for reason of fun, sending a mission to the asteroid belt is as much fun as sending it to Mars. You do not even have too wait for the closest approach.
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
Saurdaukar: As if this wasnt clear in the 85 other posts you have made saying exacly the same thing.
It was not clear to most people who responed to those "85 other posts". They seemed to believe I was against their funding mission to Mars or against space research in general.
Now, would you care to contribute anything to the technical discussion (and explain whatever you ment by the "'razor thing")rather than derail the thread into politics - for no apparent reason than to hyppocritically flaunt it after telling me yesterday not to do such a thing.
Or at least you could have came up with statements that make more (or any) sense, political or not.
In order to "exploit the workers of the world and distract them" not necessary to waste resources on the worthless Mars venture. The ignorants would as easily be exploited and distracted by a great expedition to the asteroid belt. It does not have to cost less or employ fewer government workers.
As for reason of fun, sending a mission to the asteroid belt is as much fun as sending it to Mars. You do not even have too wait for the closest approach.
miko
Didn't you see The Empire Strikes Back? Asteroid fields are dangerous!
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Originally posted by miko2d
Saurdaukar: That 'razor thing' isnt something you subscribe to, eh?
I subscribe to the idea that free people should be able to pursue their separate goals without coercing anyone.
Option 2: Um... we just wanna go, man, itll be fun.
I don't mind you going there - at your own risk and expense.
miko
Thats fine and dandy but... mind telling me how Saur will get there on his own?
Nobody's coercing or tricking you into anything. You're too smart to fall for something like that. :rolleyes:
You're just as free and able to support or oppose these ideas of space settlements as I or anyone else in this thread. Believe it or not, YOU have some control of how your money is spent. It's not always this war of 'us' vs 'them'. Why not write to your representatives and explain yourself instead of bitching about how stupid everyone "really is" ?
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Originally posted by majic
Didn't you see The Empire Strikes Back? Asteroid fields are dangerous!
Asteroids do not concern me, Admiral.
-- Darth Leviathn
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Those asteroid belts are pretty far away. Gotta learn to walk before you run.
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majic: ...Empire Strikes Back? Asteroid fields are dangerous!
:) More for bad guys than for good ones.
Octavius: Thats fine and dandy but... mind telling me how Saur will get there on his own?
Not that I give a damn how anyone achieves his private goals, as long as he does not infringe on my rights an property, but I can give a general advice - assemble like-minded people, collect money and launch any enterprise you like.
Nobody's coercing or tricking you into anything. You're too smart to fall for something like that.
So if I do not pay my taxes - of just the portion of them that pays for the NASA programs that I do not approve, there will be no armed government goons barging in to confiscate my property and kidnap me to jail or kill me if I resist?
At least other supporters of the big government honestly admit "Civil War decided whether paying tariffs/taxes to federal government is voluntary, deal with that", buy you seem to be genuinly deluded if you think your taxes are voluntary.
You're just as free and able to support or oppose these ideas of space settlements as I or anyone else in this thread. Believe it or not, YOU have some control of how your money is spent.
That is contrary to the ideas of democracy and the principles of our government. It is at the majority represented by politicians, not ME who has control of how my money is spent.
Why not write to your representatives and explain yourself instead of *****ing about how stupid everyone "really is" ?
Write what? Persusade them to use other people's money for the projects I like? Persuade them to ignore the wishes of majority that elected them or special interests that pay them just to make me a favor?
Anyway, why are you bitching that I wish to discuss the technical merits of my asteroid belt project here? Nobody forced you to read it. For a bunch of people who claim to be sick of politics, you guys sure are hard to drag away from politics.
Anyway, how come nobody is interested in discussing space exploration? So many people expressed such a great pride in mars mission, one would think they had anything good to say about it.
miko
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His inability to understand is also a result of his different belief system, and the influence of Satan's subtle powers on him.
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we really dont have much proof that theres ore on the asteroids...
If you do not like the rules of the "state" you live in, just "emigrate" and take your "land" with you.
there will still be dictators who will simply board your ship kill you and keep it if you try to leave...its not nearly as simple as you make it seem...
In space, you just focus a solar mirror on a solar panel or a water tank of a steam turbine and you have cheap stable electricity.
where do you propose they get that water???
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Originally posted by miko2d
So if I do not pay my taxes - of just the portion of them that pays for the NASA programs that I do not approve, there will be no armed government goons barging in to confiscate my property and kidnap me to jail or kill me if I resist?
You're saying tax laws are trickery? And I dont think execution is a penalty for tax evasion.
At least other supporters of the big government honestly admit "Civil War decided whether paying tariffs/taxes to federal government is voluntary, deal with that", buy you seem to be genuinly deluded if you think your taxes are voluntary.
I said taxes are voluntary?
Write what? Persusade them to use other people's money for the projects I like? Persuade them to ignore the wishes of majority that elected them or special interests that pay them just to make me a favor?
Sure, why not? Better than doing nothing. Perhaps if you and more like-minded citizens did write to their representatives, it would possibly elevate your group to majority status... or atleast get you out of the PMS bitch mode for tax dollars. Complaints/ideas aimed at your reps just might make them think about something other than reelection. It'll only cost you postage and a little time for thought process.
For a bunch of people who claim to be sick of politics, you guys sure are hard to drag away from politics.
Nice generalization.
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While survival instinct is trait with which we are equipped, I won't attribute to it the motivation for everything we do. Ever heard of Maslow? Can't space exploration fall at least partially into the self actualization" category?
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Originally posted by vorticon
we really dont have much proof that theres ore on the asteroids...where do you propose they get that water???
Good grief, are you that ill-informed? You should really start paying more attention in school and less attention to computer games and forums like this.
You were heading in the right direction with this post in the H2H forum-
Originally posted by vorticon in the thread "Do You Have New Year's Resolution?"
Free Multiplayer forum, 01-02-2004 @ 07:19 PM
stay out of serious discussions on the o'club
Granted, most people break their New Year's resolution. I really think you should give it a second try tho.