Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: mora on January 11, 2004, 09:08:05 PM
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I do not believe in any god, and perfectly happy with myself. I don't having anything against those who choose to be a part of a religious group, that's a simple solution to people who want to use their brain capacity to other things than philosophising life. Unfortunately many religious people are more keen to influence and infect others than practise their own religion, even with weapons in extreme cases.
A few religions in comparison, from worst to best IMO:
1. Islam: There are several variations that differ greatly. Usually they seem to have very strong tendency to spread their word and affect all people around them, whether they believe or not. Extremely violent in some cases.
2. Christianity: There are several variations that differ greatly. Sometimes they seem to have very strong tendency to spread their word and affect all people around them, whether they believe or not. Violent in some cases.
3. Jevishm: There is not so much variations. Not violent, but lot's of violence in its root areas because of some stupid decisions made ages ago. Some tendency to affect people around them.
4. Hinduism: Not particulary violent but in the past it had some very discusting rituals.
5. Buddhism: The basis of this religion is practising the religion, not spreading it. Completely nonviolent.
It doesn't feel too comforting that the most dominant religions in the world are also the violent ones.
The reason I wrote this rant is that, I'm going to army today to do my military service, and I'm a little put off by the God and country stuff there. OTOH I'm sure there's plenty of other things to worry about than religion. :) It will be interesting to see how I adapt,as I'm about 5 years older than an average draftee.
Do you think that there should be a public draft in the US? I'm sure it would do good for many people over there.
Btw, I just deleted my account last week as I'm not going to be able to play for while. It would be nice to be able to freeze your account instead of deleting it.
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If youre beginning your required military service, Ill put a month of AH2 says you become pretty dedicated to something as soon as you get marching orders.
Either way, good luck. Keep your chin up and your head down. Thank you for your service.
EDIT: Just saw the draft question. In some ways, you can argue for a required service stint in the US and against it.
Some say that there are quite a few people in this country that would benifit emmesely from a good Marine Corps kick in the ass, but on the other hand, you want to preserve the quality of the average serviceman, meaning you dont want people in your platoon who dont want to be there.
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Good luck dude!
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I am not sure what you mean by a public draft.
If you mean that everyone should serve, Lets say 2 years of there life.
All that is going to do is make the goverment employ millions more people then they need.
In the past we have not had a problem getting people to join.
It would just be a Waste to make people serve if they don't want to.
People need to feel pride for the work they do. This would not cause that.
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It is an amazing thing when people suddenly find themselves on the verge of unexpected death, how every person instinctively hopes that something greater than themselves intervenes and saves them from the vast unkown, death.
God, or a greater power, a pure and simple creator -is imbedded into the very fabric of existence.
Good luck.
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When someone is dirt poor, they're more likely to buy lottery tickets because they hope they'll win. Check out the ratio of lotto tickets bought by people on welfare vs. those who drive a Lexus.
Just because you hope for something doesn't make it so.
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Lots of luck - hope you like running, early mornings, digging holes and four hours sleep a night - buy a swiss army knife and wear two prs of socks till your boots are broken in.
The first 6 months are pretty grim - it gets better after that.....let me know if you'd like a list of what to take.
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For all those going into the military, if you want to "freeze" your AH account or whatever, you should CALL SKUZZY BEFORE you delete your account.
He MAY be able to help you out.
Good luck.
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Originally posted by Yeager
It is an amazing thing when people suddenly find themselves on the verge of unexpected death, how every person instinctively hopes that something greater than themselves intervenes and saves them from the vast unkown, death.
God, or a greater power, a pure and simple creator -is imbedded into the very fabric of existence.
Good luck.
Not necessarily. I, personally, gave up on trying to believe in a "greater power" when confronted with intense combat.
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Believe in yourself, your buds, your training and your weapons - my experience turned me into a agnostic with strong pantheist leanings.
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Originally posted by mora
It doesn't feel too comforting that the most dominant religions in the world are also the violent ones.
Seems to mirror societies in general. Most of dominant countries in the world, past and present, got that way generally through violence (or the threat thereof).
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Good luck to you and ~S~! You just might find out that the military life can be a rewarding one.
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Enjoy it Mora, i did for several years :)
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It is an amazing thing when people suddenly find themselves on the verge of unexpected death, how every person instinctively hopes that something greater than themselves intervenes and saves them from the vast unkown, death.
Talk about a huge generalisation, and a very condescending one too. I bet there are plenty of atheists out there who die without giving into to that particular human weakness.
Your response is a common one from theists - who firmly believe that no-one can possibly hold beliefs as strong as there own.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Talk about a huge generalisation, and a very condescending one too. I bet there are plenty of atheists out there who die without giving into to that particular human weakness.
Your response is a common one from theists - who firmly believe that no-one can possibly hold beliefs as strong as there own.
I'm sure you feel comfortable in your smugness but I bet you'd lose that bet.
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"there's no such thing as an athiest in a fox hole"
Cant remember who said it but pretty applicable. I remember when I was in boot camp I had NO desire to go to church on sundays. The Drill Instructors persuaded me otherwise. Those who did not attend religious services were placed on extended cleaning details. I soon realized going to church and getting a little spiritual recharge after a hard week was a GOOD thing. Not to mention it was the only time of the week I got to get away from the DIs.
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Smugness? I'd say that making the assertion that people abandon perhaps life-long held principles on their death bed, simply to assuage your own personal belief superiority complex is the embodiment of smugness. It's practically ghoulish and a very old cliche.
I'd like the idea of some meta-physical wager, if the concept wasn't firmly based on complete and utter bollocks. The 'bet' was a figure of speech.
The need to believe in a greater being is a symptom of the human mind's incomprehension of the size of the universe and its timescale. Keep to your beliefs and I'll keep to mine.
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Tell ya what Dowding, I'll bet ya $10 just before you die (and if you have time) you're more than willing to forsake your devout Atheism in fervent hope there is a God and an afterlife. Whadda ya say?
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dowding your just plain wierd, are you wearing a kilt?
Im just expressing my own observations and talks with others. When I find a common theme between my own experiences and those of others on such matters I tend to get contemplative and expressive, communicative, reflective......
I support your right, and the right of anyone to deny God, or any higher value for that matter.
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You're serious? Or just makin a point? If it's the former, I'd better watch my step when the flights from Texas come in - sounds like you want your $10 right now. If it's the latter then I understood your point when Yeager made it.
I'm very stubborn. Even if I wasn't really an atheist, I'd win the bet out of spite.
Your attitude is not a big surprise and you're not alone in sharing it. I've come across it before. Some people like the idea someone is guiding their lives with some greater purpose. They don't understand how to others that makes no sense. Fair enough.
Each to their own.
Oh, and if someone makes the point that atheists are self-centric without a god, they are missing the whole foundation of atheism. I believe we are all so insignificant and short-lived within the universe, that to claim we are in anyway special is the most self-centric argument you could make.
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Happy New Year, everybody.
The way I see it, you've got to play the odds on this religion thing. The only way to win is to become a believer on your deathbed. That way you can have a life free of religious restrictions, and then (if there is a god), you get rewarded in the afterlife.
Of course exactly which religion you plumb for when on your deathbed is a totally different question, so I guess you've got to take a random shot at that one and hope you've picked the right one.
Ravs
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dowding your just plain wierd, are you wearing a kilt? [/b]
lol You don't really want to start talking about clothing? Eat my shorts, dude!
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Originally posted by ravells
Happy New Year, everybody.
The way I see it, you've got to play the odds on this religion thing. The only way to win is to become a believer on your deathbed. That way you can have a life free of religious restrictions, and then (if there is a god), you get rewarded in the afterlife.
Of course exactly which religion you plumb for when on your deathbed is a totally different question, so I guess you've got to take a random shot at that one and hope you've picked the right one.
Ravs
Of course you've gotta hope for a deathbed too.
Seriously, many find that their religion provides enough reward in this life and would practice it even without hope in the next.
I was making a joke Dowding, how would you ever collect?
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I wasn't being altogether serious AK Iron.
I can entirely understand that some people find religion a comfort in their day to day lives and know a great many people who do.
Ravs
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I know you were making a joke. Forget about collecting - why would I need the money?
Yeah, I'm sure people would. But the afterlife is a key tenet of most religions.
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Originally posted by Dowding
I know you were making a joke. Forget about collecting - why would I need the money?
Yeah, I'm sure people would. But the afterlife is a key tenet of most religions.
Indeed it is. I think you'll agree that hope in an afterlife does little harm, even to those that don't believe in it.
What is gained by the one dying with their stoic adherence to their belief that they are about to forever cease to exist?
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I believe there is a difference between hope and belief/faith. I'm pretty sure religious leaders of any religion would agree with me.
Hope does no harm, provided you don't live your life 'Waiting for God'. Sadly, I think there are people who do just that.
What is gained by the one dying with their stoic adherence to their belief that they are about to forever cease to exist?
What is to be lost by dying with that belief?
Why does there have to be a reason for the course your life takes? Why does there have to be a reward/punishment? Because it's comforting to think so and because the alternative reduces your importance immeasurably.
Like most people, my own death does not occupy my thoughts very much. I'm perfectly able to live a well-adjusted life believing what I do. I don't have a particular black outlook, although I am a tad cynical; but that isn't neccessarily related to my religious beliefs. Oh, and I'm a happy drunk. ;)
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Dowling, go have an orgasm man, your just plain
awnry today :rolleyes:
Ok Im off to Bermuda for a new pair of shorts :aok
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You're also young and probably don't consider your own mortality, at least not as you will when you get older. I bet you also take pride in believing in your own strength. Probably that pride is reinforced by your belief that you are more intelligent than those who are so easily fooled into believing in God.
Like I said before, when you reach the end, that pride will likely mean little when you face your oblivion.
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You're also young and probably don't consider your own mortality, at least not as you will when you get older. I bet you also take pride in believing in your own strength. Probably that pride is reinforced by your belief that you are more intelligent than those who are so easily fooled into believing in God.
A little condescending aren't we? Of course I've considered my own mortality. I also believe that anything I achieve here will be dust in a few hundred years, and that's being very optimistic. The only thing that continues is our genes. The best we can hope for, in my opinion, is that our genes carry on through the generations and perhaps a part of the morality we give to our kids continues too.
Those that believe in a god aren't stupid. I know plenty of clever Christians, and some are definitely more intelligent than me. Are you now saying that a belief is validated according to how intelligent the believer is? Sounds like an odd concept to me.
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Originally posted by mora
I'm sure there's plenty of other things to worry about than religion. :)
Worry no... just don't volunteer...
Your buddies will tell you where the good spots are for picking up women and having fun.
if you get over to the Phillipines, say hello to "Mama-san" for me and ask her for the basket ride.
Wear a condom... they got watermelon over there that makes penicillin run for cover.
Good luck
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Originally posted by Dowding
A little condescending aren't we? Of course I've considered my own mortality. I also believe that anything I achieve here will be dust in a few hundred years, and that's being very optimistic. The only thing that continues is our genes. The best we can hope for, in my opinion, is that our genes carry on through the generations and perhaps a part of the morality we give to our kids continues too.
Those that believe in a god aren't stupid. I know plenty of clever Christians, and some are definitely more intelligent than me. Are you now saying that a belief is validated according to how intelligent the believer is? Sounds like an odd concept to me.
Perhaps I am a bit condescending. And perhaps I'm trying to tell you that it's impossible for you to view life the same when you are young as when you are old.
I think you know what I was saying about your pride. Maybe I'm wrong and it doesn't apply in your case. Only you would know that and I'll trust your honesty.
Continuing through your genes is still fleeting. Eventually the sun will burn out or the Universe will collapse and everything that we ever were or will be will cease to exist. No deep sleep, no rebirth through your genes, no anything. Nothing, unless there is something beyond our physical realm.
You might question why we even feel this need to continue rather than dismiss it as a "weakness".
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Yeager, the word you are looking for is ornery.
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And perhaps I'm trying to tell you that it's impossible for you to view life the same when you are young as when you are old.
Of course. You're talking about circumstance and context - but that applies equally to theists and non-believers. How many believers turn their back on the church after some horrible personal tradgedy? It goes both ways. Although, personally, those that do that must have been living in a dream land, believing nothing bad happened in the world. Or perhaps they thought they were special compared to those that died in agony and fear, for instance. Who knows.
Continuing through your genes is still fleeting. Eventually the sun will burn out or the Universe will collapse and everything that we ever were or will be will cease to exist. No deep sleep, no rebirth through your genes, no anything. Nothing, unless there is something beyond our physical realm.
That is, of course, true. And that is a scary idea. But so is becoming infected with AIDS or being paralysed in some car accident or myriad other terrible fates. You have to live your life with that knowledge, without becoming obsessed by it. At the moment, that's no problem to me.
I think you know what I was saying about your pride. Maybe I'm wrong and it doesn't apply in your case. Only you would know that and I'll trust your honesty.
I understand, but I'm not particularly proud of my beliefs.
You might question why we even feel this need to continue rather than dismiss it as a "weakness".
Social conditioning if you're asking. We're raised to believe we are special, that we have dominion over everything we see and that our lives have meaning in the grand scheme of things.
Now, I've had enough of this meta-physical bollocks, and I've got lots of work to. Good luck with your beliefs! :)
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Social conditioning? Perhaps. However, I was referring to the we as a species and not just you and I. Certainly we both know the argument that religion was a device created to socialize and/or control people. But as individuals why do we have the deep yearning to be more than we are? Dismiss it any way you like or attribute it to purely physical reasons like survival of the species but don't deny it's there.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
"there's no such thing as an athiest in a fox hole"
Nice quote...but not true.
It's better to have men that are focused on their survival rather than some devine way to get out of the situation. That was a feeling held by many in my experience.
A good number of dying soldiers call for their mother instead of god also.
As a 'feel good' quote it works...but reality is a bit different.
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Yeager, the word you are looking for is ornery.
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thanks funked. Sometimes I just like the way a word looks.
examples:
Xtra (as in "arent ewe Xtra special")
B4 (as opposed to AFTER)
Taint (as in "Taint Rat")
Tidnt (as in "Tidnt Rat")
Caint (as in "Caint be rat, Caint it?")
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Cant remember who said it but pretty applicable. I remember when I was in boot camp I had NO desire to go to church on sundays. The Drill Instructors persuaded me otherwise. Those who did not attend religious services were placed on extended cleaning details. I soon realized going to church and getting a little spiritual recharge after a hard week was a GOOD thing. Not to mention it was the only time of the week I got to get away from the DIs.
Gunslinger
LOL, same in the Army. A buddy and I did manage to find a nice hidden spot to nap for a couple of hours during this time (on a linoleum floor, but when you're that tired...). Then, some knob looking to get a "trainee of the cycle" award or whatnot ratted us out. The funny thing is, the DS gave us some 5-minute detail cleaning out the supply closet (which we would have been doing anyway) and screwed the knob's chance to get the award and one-stripe (PFC) promotion for being such a tool :)
Charon
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Lets see now my belief is that God gives everyone a gift. That being life. You live your life then when you die, he recieves you again. There are alot of god posers out there, fake saints and radical bomb assault rifle wielding freaks. I put them all in the same group if you ask me. Even the less radical ones do more harm than good.
Believing in god aint gona prevent you from getting blown up or something. However these days having a very radical belief in god in your everyday life will get you blown up.
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I think I'm a Catholic so I can make jokes about it. The Irish works well too.
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Hey Schadenfreude, out of curiosity, and since I'll be shipping out in a few weeks, what's your list? So far I think the best thing I have is a pair of waterproof socks.
Oh and as far as the topic, I don't consider myself to be religious, nor do I consider myself an atheist/agnostic. I guess when it comes to the subject of transcendant universal godliness and the like, I just don't give my own comprehension enough credit to make a justifiable assertion either way.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Smugness? I'd say that making the assertion that people abandon perhaps life-long held principles on their death bed, simply to assuage your own personal belief superiority complex is the embodiment of smugness. It's practically ghoulish and a very old cliche.
I'd like the idea of some meta-physical wager, if the concept wasn't firmly based on complete and utter bollocks. The 'bet' was a figure of speech.
The need to believe in a greater being is a symptom of the human mind's incomprehension of the size of the universe and its timescale. Keep to your beliefs and I'll keep to mine.
Such a smart young fellow....highly intelligent, yet cannot grasp the simple concept of Faith....to you, merely some mindgame played by those so much weaker than yourself.
The Bible defines Faith as the following....
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not yet seen.
Hebrews 11:1
Of course, we all know that if you cannot see it, then it don't exist....sorry, I forgot that logic.
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rejected christianity at 12
became a buddist at 24
war at 25
still a buddist.
if you meet budda on the road kill him!
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Originally posted by Chairboy
When someone is dirt poor, they're more likely to buy lottery tickets because they hope they'll win. Check out the ratio of lotto tickets bought by people on welfare vs. those who drive a Lexus.
Just because you hope for something doesn't make it so.
I'd just like to add that my dog needs a bath since that's about as relevent. :D
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Well Rude, i'm on Downding's side of this.
Substance of things hoped for ?
So faith sources from our needs and desires which haven't yet materialised ?
While I could agree with above statement I don't see why it has to invariably lead to christian god.
"I have a faith i will be sucessful in life "( just making an example ).
This may have not happend yet, to the fullest, but I will bust my bellybutton and from having seen people do the same and suceed I have a good chance of doing the same.
That's faith - reasonable, rational faith.
"I have a faith that after I die, my soul will take a walk though the pearly gates and live forever in paradise"
Problems: no proof of existance of such a thing as soul.
No proof that afterlife exists.
That's faith you are talking about: blind to reason and rational thought, condesending to those not as blind, faith.
I know you are a raligious man, and that's ok with me.
We spoke on the subject before in Dallas, and I believe that dispite our "faith" differences, we have more in common then anything.
But I suffer from the same "problem" that Downding does ( i think ). Deep down inside, I just don't "feel" presence of anything more. I don't feel presence of God or some other omnipotent being. If we were to debate here on the forum and you were to rationalise the existance of God to me, then whole thing would stop being a faith and become a fact. So I think we can agree that faith demands some "unknown".
We only differ of how uncertain it is. :D
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Originally posted by Dowding
Talk about a huge generalisation, and a very condescending one too. I bet there are plenty of atheists out there who die without giving into to that particular human weakness.
So did you have any problem with this threads author generalizing religion and its tie to violence.
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So did you have any problem with this threads author generalizing religion and its tie to violence
I'm not certain you read his message, he mentioned that two specific religions had violent connotations with him, then proceeded to list some that didn't. Does that straw man come with a hat?
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In my experience when athiests are confronted with unexpected and immediate death they pray to God. Not mom, or dad.
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Originally posted by Rude
Of course, we all know that if you cannot see it, then it don't exist....sorry, I forgot that logic.
so you're saying beet1e is only a BBS entity?
:lol
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Originally posted by Yeager
In my experience when athiests are confronted with unexpected and immediate death they pray to God. Not mom, or dad.
that's an extreme way of spreading the word, yeager... and very illegal. hope you don't get cuaght.
:eek:
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Originally posted by AKIron
What is gained by the one dying with their stoic adherence to their belief that they are about to forever cease to exist?
Dignity.
curly
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What is gained by the one dying with their stoic adherence to their belief that they are about to forever cease to exist?
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Dignity.
curly
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Only up to the point where the person ceases to exist. After that they wont care about dignity. In fact after death, the whole experience of ones life becomes non existant and of no value whatsoever to the person who just expired.
In the final analysis, when the last human being dies, nothing that ever happened throughout history has any value. None, zero....nadda. The whole excercise of life is in fact, a total waste of time because after death, being born never really happened :D
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how did the dinosaurs miss the ark?
why didn't the fish drown in the flood? they sure weren't on the ark. (read vewwy carefully the passages abut the flood). is the answer really 42?
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Science vs. creationism in 5...4...3...
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i'm bored.
:)
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Life is a death sentence. I'm an atheist. After my death, I'll probably be pushing up daisies somewhere....but that's just me.
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Originally posted by Shane
so you're saying beet1e is only a BBS entity?
I thank you not to mention my name in a thread which has "religion" in the title.